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Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8318906
Ireland
10/30/2012 12:18 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


Why not summarize it for me? I don't have the patience to read all that? Anyway, I just did with the verse I posted.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8318906


um, no. if you want the answer to your question, read it for yourself. i have already answered it a few times for you. not willing to go any further unless you meet me at least half way.
 Quoting: Salt


That is a cop-out. I don't want somebody's commentary of the word, I want the word of God itself explicitly saying otherwise and I know for a fact that it does not. I posted the word of God saying otherwise, a soul is not a spirit, it is a living being. Are you saying everyone has a Spirit in them? If that would be so, why does the word not say that? Where would the room be for the Holy Spirit? Why would Yeshua say he is sending us a helper if we already had one. What kind of Spirit does everyone have? A good one, a bad one? That is not biblical. Only some have THE Spirit, the Holy Spirit and of course people can become possessed of evil spirits.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8318906


not a cop out. i have carefully selected a word study on the difference between the soul and the spirit according to scripture in the Hebrew and the Greek.

you are unwilling to read it.

if you continue to harass, i will be forced to remove you from the thread.
 Quoting: Salt


Yes it is a cop-out and you know it. You can not even present a verse saying otherwise because it does not but I bet your churchianity commentary will twist it to. And the usual threat of a ban from you if somebody rebukes your false teachings. Can't say that I am surprised. You would have fit right in during the inquisitions.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/30/2012 12:19 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


um, no. if you want the answer to your question, read it for yourself. i have already answered it a few times for you. not willing to go any further unless you meet me at least half way.
 Quoting: Salt


That is a cop-out. I don't want somebody's commentary of the word, I want the word of God itself explicitly saying otherwise and I know for a fact that it does not. I posted the word of God saying otherwise, a soul is not a spirit, it is a living being. Are you saying everyone has a Spirit in them? If that would be so, why does the word not say that? Where would the room be for the Holy Spirit? Why would Yeshua say he is sending us a helper if we already had one. What kind of Spirit does everyone have? A good one, a bad one? That is not biblical. Only some have THE Spirit, the Holy Spirit and of course people can become possessed of evil spirits.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8318906


not a cop out. i have carefully selected a word study on the difference between the soul and the spirit according to scripture in the Hebrew and the Greek.

you are unwilling to read it.

if you continue to harass, i will be forced to remove you from the thread.
 Quoting: Salt


Yes it is a cop-out and you know it. You can not even present a verse saying otherwise because it does not but I bet your churchianity commentary will twist it to. And the usual threat of a ban from you if somebody rebukes your false teachings. Can't say that I am surprised. You would have fit right in during the inquisitions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8318906


the question has been answered, Logun 5.

the question has been answered.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/30/2012 12:22 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Anonymous Coward
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10/31/2012 12:59 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Man means Adam in hebrew . "Son of man" means "Son of Adam" .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26311503


Adam was created. The Son of man - born. NOT THE SAME, at all.

"You have to be BORN AGAIN."
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/31/2012 02:00 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Man means Adam in hebrew . "Son of man" means "Son of Adam" .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26311503


Adam was created. The Son of man - born. NOT THE SAME, at all.

"You have to be BORN AGAIN."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10793047


well, son of God means angels. They are created by God. Adam is a son of God because he was created by God. Every descendent after Adam is a son of man.
Anonymous Coward
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10/31/2012 04:32 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Man means Adam in hebrew . "Son of man" means "Son of Adam" .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26311503


Adam was created. The Son of man - born. NOT THE SAME, at all.

"You have to be BORN AGAIN."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10793047


well, son of God means angels. They are created by God. Adam is a son of God because he was created by God. Every descendent after Adam is a son of man.
 Quoting: Salt


The Creator of yours is not the same as your father. Only if you are born from God you are God´s child, not before.

Secondly, the angels were not made from dust.
Anonymous Coward
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11/01/2012 12:52 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.


 Quoting: Salt


From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.


Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!
Anonymous Coward
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11/01/2012 01:12 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Because he is is own antichrist, and the religion thereof is the ultimate deception.
Spiritoftruth
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11/01/2012 01:17 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.

FAQ:

What other evidences for Enoch's authenticity (as a sacred text) are there?

Why isn't it in the Bible today?

Jesus said that angels can't have sex, proving this book's falsehood...


The idea that Jesus said that angels cannot have sex is a very common objection to The Book of Enoch and the angelic understanding of Genesis 6 in general. However it is also a very common misinterpretation of what he actually said. Go Here to read what he said (Matt 22:30), and to study this topic. Beyond that misunderstanding, there is no doubt today that The Book of Enoch was one of the most widely accepted and revered books of Jewish culture and doctrine in the century leading up to Jesus' birth.

It is usually noted first that New Testament author Jude directly quotes from 1 Enoch - "Behold he comes with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgment ..." (1 Enoch 2, Jude 14-15). Additionally, "the citations of Enoch by the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs... show that at the close of the second century B.C., and during the first century B.C., this book was regarded in certain circles as inspired" (1).

Aside from Jude, Peter and Paul's affirmations of the angelic/hybrid interpretation, recognition of 1 Enoch "... is given amply in the Epistle of Barnabus, and in the third century by Clement and Irenaeus" (1). The Catholic Church's Origen - known as "the father of theology" - affirmed both the Book of Enoch and the fact that angels could and did co-habitate with the daughters of men. He even warned against possible angelic and/or Nephilim infiltration of the church itself. Oddly, while thousands of his writings are still considered by them as "sacred," this very issue got him labeled as a heretic when the faulty Sons of Seth "doctrine" was conceived! (2)

Additionally, the Coptic Orthodox Churches of Egypt (est'd appx 50-100 A.D.) still include Enoch as canonized text in the Ethiopic Old Testament (2). This fact alone should carry great weight for Western Christians when honestly studying the "case" for Enoch. Given their 1900+ year history, the fact that they were never "ruled" by Rome's theology, and that they currently number over 10 million - this is a VERY significant portion of The Body of Christ that has historically esteemed 1 Enoch as inspired doctrine.

Some today (who do not seem to believe in the inspiration of scripture) claim that most major themes of the New Testament were in fact "borrowed" from 1 Enoch. "It appears that Christianity later adopted some of its ideas and philosophies from this book, including the Final Judgment, the concept of demons, the Resurrection, and the coming of a Messiah and Messianic Kingdom" (3). No doubt, these themes are major parts of 1 Enoch, and appear there as complete theologies a full 200 years before any other NT writings.

Christian author Stephen Quayle writes, "Several centuries before and after the appearance of Jesus in Jerusalem, this book had become well known to the Jewish community, having a profound impact upon Jewish thought. The Book of Enoch gave the jewish people their solar calendar, and also appears to have instilled the idea that the coming Messiah would be someone who had pre-existed as God (4)." Translator RH Charles also stated that "the influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than all of the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books put together" (3). The conclusions are somewhat inescapable given Enoch's dating and wide acceptance between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. - either Christian authors, and especially the Nicene Council, did plagiarize their theology directly from Enoch, or the original version of Enoch was also inspired.

James H Charlesworth, director of Dead Sea Studies at Yale University, says in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha & The New Testament (Trinity Press International),
"I have no doubt that the Enoch groups deemed the Book of Enoch as fully inspired as any biblical book. I am also convinced that the group of jewish people behind the Temple Scroll, which is surely pre-Qumranic, would have judged it to be quintessential Torah -- that is, equal to, and perhaps better than, Deuteronomy....Then we should perceive the Pseudepigrapha as they were apparently judged to be: God's revelation to humans(2 & 5)."

But perhaps the most telling argument for 1 Enoch's "inspiration" may well be that the Jewish understanding of the term "Son of Man" as a Messianic title comes - not truly from our Old Testament canon - but from the Book of Enoch! Ever wonder why Jesus refers to himself in the gospels as the "Son of Man" rather than the Son of God? (2) Of over 100 uses of the phrase "son of man" in the OT, it refers almost always to "normal" men (93 times specifically of Ezekiel, and certainly not as Messiah!), but is used only one time in the entire OT, in one of Daniel's heavenly visions, to refer to divinity. Despite the Old Testament's frequent lack of divine application of the phrase, 1 Enoch records several trips to heaven, using the title "Son of Man" unceasingly to refer to the pre-incarnate Christ. Of particular Messianic significance, Enoch describes the following scene (2):

The angels "glorify with all their power of praise; and He sustains them in all that act of thanksgiving while they laud, glorify and exalt the name of the Lord of Spirits forever and ever... Great was their joy. They blessed, glorified and exalted because the name of the Son of Man was revealed to them (1 Enoch 68:35-38)." Both His disciples, and especially the Sanhedrein knew what Jesus was claiming - 84 times in the gospels! - when referring to Himself as the "Son of Man." This claim was considered an obvious blasphemy to the Pharisees & Saducees, but it is eternal life to all who confess that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, the Son of Man, The Messiah, God in the flesh, The Holy One of Israel, God's Christ - the Lord of All to whom every knee shall bow (Philippians 2:8-10).

Using "normal rules" of scriptural interpretation, we are never to draw firm doctrine from only one passage of scripture. Right? Daniel's single use of "Son of Man" (in a "night vision" at that - Dan 7:13), would not be sufficient to claim that the phrase is indeed Messianic, especially given the other 107 times it is not used in that way. 1 Enoch is the missing "second witness" needed (according to all other rules of interpretation) to understand the phrase's double meaning as an enduring Messianic title. It has been argued ever since Enoch's first English translation, that by using this title so familiar to the jewish people, Jesus was actually affirming the truth of this book, that the prophet was taken on many trips to heaven before his "final" translation, and that HE WAS THE ONE whom Enoch saw there - the pre-existent Son of Man, whom Enoch prophesied would judge the souls of all men.

Interestingly, Daniel is ALSO the only OT use of the term "watcher" to ever refer to angels (Daniel 4:13, 17, 23 KJV). Strong's Concordance defines a watcher as a "guardian angel" (Strong's 5894). "The distinguishing character of the Watcher (opposed to other angels in the canon) appears to be that it spends much time among men, overseeing what they are doing. It is also interesting to note that both times one of these angels appeared to Daniel, he took pains to note that it was "an holy one," suggesting that some Watchers are not aligned with God while others are (4)." Found nowhere else in the OT canon but the book of Daniel, "watcher" is patently Enoch's term for these angels. Likewise, Daniel alone used Enoch's term "Son of Man" to refer to the pre-incarnate Christ, adding further intrigue to the case for 1 Enoch's inspiration, and an overall understanding of it's doctrinal acceptance among both Old and New Testament writers.

What we lose out on today by not examining 1 Enoch - even if only for its historical significance - is that it is actually more splendid than ANY OTHER book in our canon in its exultation of Christ as King! It also gives clear, stern and oft-repeated warnings to the unsaved of swift destruction at the Coming of The Lord, but is also full of amazing promises of future glory for the elect! We are of course wise to stay clear of dangerous heresy, but... ask yourself if the below sounds like false doctrine? Keep in mind, this was written at least 200 years before Christ walked the earth, and perhaps before Noah's birth:

Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify Him who has dominion over all things, Him who was concealed; for from eternity the Son of Man was concealed, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of
His power and revealed to the elect.

He shall sow the congregation of the saints, and of the elect; and all the elect shall stand before Him in that day.
All the kings, the princes, the exalted, and those who rule
over the earth shall fall down on their faces before Him,
and shall worship Him. They shall fix their hopes on this Son of Man...

Then the sword of the Lord of Spirits shall be drunk from them (the lost); but the saints and the elect shall be safe in that day; nor the face of the sinners and the ungodly shall they thence-forth behold. The Lord of Spirits shall remain over them; And with this Son of Man shall they dwell, eat, lie down, and rise up for ever and ever...

Enoch 61:10-13


Literally Translated from the Ethiopic by Richard Laurence LL.D.
Archbishop of Cashel
Late Professor of Hebrew in the University of Oxford
 Quoting: Salt


Thread: The Book of Enoch, ETs, and the Church Coverup


There is a book in the Dead Sea Scrolls (and also the bible) that talks about how Lamech was not sure if his wife was pregnant from his own seed or was taken by one of the Watchers. (Lamech's son would be Noah). In the book in the Dead Sea Scrolls, he confronts his wife about it. She insists the unborn baby is Lamech's but Lamech doesn't believe her right away (even tho he wants to very much).




When Jesus says he is the 'son of man', He is clarifying that He was born of a woman.
 Quoting: Salt


It is prophecy. Many times does Jesus speak in third person referring to things of himself but not directly. The Son of Man represented when he would incarnated again having overcome hell by suffering it layers to pay for all sin 'he descended below them all' and shall arise above all. Behold he is born of a Man and Women coming through the descendant of David and Abraham the second time; were was originally manifested by the Spirit the first time. There is many mystery's yet to be revealed to man that will be shown in last days.
Spiritoftruth
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11/01/2012 01:26 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.


 Quoting: Salt


From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.


Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


You could not understand the mystery of the trinity and it will not be revealed until the end. But Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords same time he is the Son of Man and Son of God, the Lamb the Lion and the WORD, even the angel of the harvest. You know not the meaning of the omnipresence. The Son is what has done what is needed to save ye show gratitude to the Son, ye can not come unto the Father but through the adoption done by the Son.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1190661
Australia
11/01/2012 01:46 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.


 Quoting: Salt


From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.


Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


You could not understand the mystery of the trinity and it will not be revealed until the end. But Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords same time he is the Son of Man and Son of God, the Lamb the Lion and the WORD, even the angel of the harvest. You know not the meaning of the omnipresence. The Son is what has done what is needed to save ye show gratitude to the Son, ye can not come unto the Father but through the adoption done by the Son.
 Quoting: Spiritoftruth 26530436


So Jesus' actual words mean nothing to you... BUT what man has taught you means everything.

Therein lies your problem. You say I can't understand and yet you fail to follow what Jesus has precisely said...

You need to study the history of the trinity. It is an inserted human construct that you guys have all fallen for.

Perhaps you should have said Jesus doesn't understand the trinity because they are his precise words that YOU should follow BUT CHOOSE not to.

You can't just ignore the passages I posted because your indoctrination from men tells you to!

Can you really call yourself a Christian then?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 20541213
United States
11/01/2012 01:53 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

matthew 22:30
 Quoting: Salt


at the resurrection?

when people pass away, they will be like the angels in heaven..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26510026


nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).
 Quoting: Salt


Hi Salt, peace

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1190661
Australia
11/01/2012 02:13 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

matthew 22:30
 Quoting: Salt


at the resurrection?

when people pass away, they will be like the angels in heaven..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26510026


nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).
 Quoting: Salt


Hi Salt, peace

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


That doesn't say "I am GOD" that is what you CHOOSE to believe it means. That is what you have been told it means.

It doesn't even follow the instruction that GOD said he would follow.

BUT it almost states Jesus is inept when it comes to communicating the most important thing - Who he is!

If the smartest person ever could have just said 3 words he would have said "I am GOD". Jesus was allegedly that person and he failed to say it.

So the Son of GOD/Son of Man (Jesus) existed before Abraham, so did the angels, so did Satan.

GOD allegedly said

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

But Jesus/GOD doesn't say this

He says

Matthew 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

But to accept this as your evidence is to ignore 99% of what Jesus said, whom he prayed to and instructions he gave.

Now to believe the "I am" rubbish you also have to ignore all of what we would call "EVIL" that was perpetrated by Moses and actually believe GOD/JESUS approved of ethnic cleansing, infanticide, Stoning, slavery & mass murder.

Well did your GOD approve of Moses being a war criminal?

Either Jesus was lying in all the verses I showed or he was being honest.

You choose!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 20541213
United States
11/01/2012 03:41 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


at the resurrection?

when people pass away, they will be like the angels in heaven..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26510026


nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).
 Quoting: Salt


Hi Salt, peace

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


That doesn't say "I am GOD" that is what you CHOOSE to believe it means. That is what you have been told it means.

It doesn't even follow the instruction that GOD said he would follow.

BUT it almost states Jesus is inept when it comes to communicating the most important thing - Who he is!

If the smartest person ever could have just said 3 words he would have said "I am GOD". Jesus was allegedly that person and he failed to say it.

So the Son of GOD/Son of Man (Jesus) existed before Abraham, so did the angels, so did Satan.

GOD allegedly said

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

But Jesus/GOD doesn't say this

He says

Matthew 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

But to accept this as your evidence is to ignore 99% of what Jesus said, whom he prayed to and instructions he gave.

Now to believe the "I am" rubbish you also have to ignore all of what we would call "EVIL" that was perpetrated by Moses and actually believe GOD/JESUS approved of ethnic cleansing, infanticide, Stoning, slavery & mass murder.

Well did your GOD approve of Moses being a war criminal?

Either Jesus was lying in all the verses I showed or he was being honest.

You choose!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


Jesus always was and always will be, He took on a human
nature because He loves us. Only God says I AM.

God bless you Australia...hf
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1190661
Australia
11/01/2012 09:50 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Really? Did you mean to type "i am" as Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic didn't use capitals.

Firstly to believe that "i am" means GOD you have to accept & believe evil Moses as representing GOD.

Good luck with that, because then you have to believe that YOUR GOD agreed with infanticide, slavery, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, stoning and all the other ugly Moses laws.

Oh and not to forget Moses feeding women dust from the floor in holy water as a curse to test if they had been unfaithful and that would abort a baby if they had. I showed this on another thread but it is a very important verse so here it is again.

Numbers 5:16-22 (NIV) “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord."

Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.

But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”


Once you agree to take Moses' view on things then you have to go against what Jesus taught. According to Moses GOD spoke directly to him.

And after that if you can accept GOD would agree with all that Moses said you have to deal with what Jesus said

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Is Moses of Jesus lying... Now which one is it?

But it gets even more complex.

Why did Jesus say this?

Matthew 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

People read this line, grab it and pretend it aligns with the OT "i am who i am" line from Moses the terrible, BUT, and miss the key word… Abraham!

If Jesus had have said “before adam I am” then that would have put him before man.

BUT Abraham? Abraham is nowhere near the first in this alleged genealogy.

Something is definitely wrong, and believers just read over it as if it was nothing.

Jesus is saying he goes back to before Abraham… This is a crazy choice knowing as GOD he has to go back to Adam at least another 19 generations according to this site!

[link to www.abetterhope.com]

So how do believers miss this stuff? How do they believe in the attrocities of Moses as "from GOD" - afterall Moses said GOD said to do it!

And how do they accept "i am" as meaning so much when it is very peculiarly used in both cases?

I have much, much more but I'm not sure believers want to know the truth... It's easier to believe the Bible with all it's immense flaws and to not have to think.

lolsign
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
11/01/2012 10:11 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.


 Quoting: Salt


From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.


Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


You could not understand the mystery of the trinity and it will not be revealed until the end. But Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords same time he is the Son of Man and Son of God, the Lamb the Lion and the WORD, even the angel of the harvest. You know not the meaning of the omnipresence. The Son is what has done what is needed to save ye show gratitude to the Son, ye can not come unto the Father but through the adoption done by the Son.
 Quoting: Spiritoftruth 26530436


well stated.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
United States
11/01/2012 10:13 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

matthew 22:30
 Quoting: Salt


at the resurrection?

when people pass away, they will be like the angels in heaven..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26510026


nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).
 Quoting: Salt


Hi Salt, peace

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


think of it this way. nobody is in the eternal place yet. this includes hell. nobody is placed eternally until judgment day. i don't think they are technically asleep. but, Lazarus was said to have been sleeping. was that metaphoric? maybe.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22108680
New Zealand
11/01/2012 10:18 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
because,get fucked
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18972829
Germany
11/01/2012 10:19 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords
 Quoting: Spiritoftruth 26530436


Corinthians chapter 15


15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son[CHRIST] also himself **be subject** unto him[THE FATHER] that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


The Lord of lords is the Father of Jesus, not Jesus.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1190661
Australia
11/01/2012 10:20 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.


 Quoting: Salt


From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.


Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


You could not understand the mystery of the trinity and it will not be revealed until the end. But Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords same time he is the Son of Man and Son of God, the Lamb the Lion and the WORD, even the angel of the harvest. You know not the meaning of the omnipresence. The Son is what has done what is needed to save ye show gratitude to the Son, ye can not come unto the Father but through the adoption done by the Son.
 Quoting: Spiritoftruth 26530436


well stated.
 Quoting: Salt


Is that all you have Salt?

It wasn't well said at all... In one breath they say the mystery of the trinity will not be revealed until the end, but then they go on to explain the faulty logic of it, as if they know.

People need to study the true history of the trinity. It is a man made doctrine that if wrong breaks the first commandment.

Go on expand your education a little ..lol
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
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11/01/2012 10:50 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.


Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


You could not understand the mystery of the trinity and it will not be revealed until the end. But Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords same time he is the Son of Man and Son of God, the Lamb the Lion and the WORD, even the angel of the harvest. You know not the meaning of the omnipresence. The Son is what has done what is needed to save ye show gratitude to the Son, ye can not come unto the Father but through the adoption done by the Son.
 Quoting: Spiritoftruth 26530436


well stated.
 Quoting: Salt


Is that all you have Salt?

It wasn't well said at all... In one breath they say the mystery of the trinity will not be revealed until the end, but then they go on to explain the faulty logic of it, as if they know.

People need to study the true history of the trinity. It is a man made doctrine that if wrong breaks the first commandment.

Go on expand your education a little ..lol
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


can i tell you that i have a complete comprehension of the triune nature of the Godhead? no.

nobody does. we can only wrap our heads around it in small ways. but, it will be revealed in full splendor at the end.

in the meantime, we know what is written. God is the Father/Creator/Source, Jesus was with God from the beginning and is the Word/the Son (product of the Source) and the Holy Spirit, which is the part of the trinity that is omnipresent with mankind.

the logic is not faulty. it just isn't fully comprehensible for our small and limited minds.
God Loves ALL

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11/01/2012 10:59 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Another tidbit to add to the "son of God" vs "son of man" mix is that in that time the Roman Emperor would refer to himself as a "son of (a) god."
 Quoting: Life and Love


true.

i find it fascinating that Jesus continues to refer to His humanity over revealing who He was overtly.

i think there is some significance of his human role before His death and after.
 Quoting: Salt


He didn't die on the Cross Salt. he was only in a coma. But it was intended that ones there believe he died, so he could get the hell out of that hell hole. His apostles knew he would NOT die. He told them and he revealed himself to them a few times and ascended into a craft and went to Damascus. He met Saul there about 2 years later. He then hid and went out of there and eventually to India.
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


If they didn't know anything else, the Romans knew how to kill people.
 Quoting: Life and Love


Yes and God manifested in the physical knows how to recoup from that. He was not even pierced in the chest, that was another one they hung, who was also here in a majestic mission from Thiaoouba. (the planet Jehovah) .

The soldier was guided to pierce him in the LEG, and he was taken down early because of that and the assistance of Joseph of A who knew what was going on and got him off the cross and into his grave which had a back opening so healers could go in and tend to him. It was desired that most believe he was dead however, so when he did get the hell of out of that hell hole, he would not be followed. When Saul caught up with him in Damascus 2 years later, he was able to blind him with fireworks, which got the attention, because Saul believed he was looking at a ghost and might listen. Saul was an incarnate who totally lost his way until that point, he was not supposed to be enemy but such is the risk of incarnating into this world, some people FORGET WHO THEY ARE.

And this is the case today where there are well over 200 million star seeds and most do not remember who they are. (HINT HINT )
The actual Lord's Prayer Given by Jesus 2000 years ago.

"MY SPIRIT, YOU ARE OMNIPOTENT. YOUR NAME IS HOLY. MAY YOUR REALM BE INCARNATE IN ME. MAY YOUR POWER REVEAL ITSELF WITHIN ME, ON EARTH AND IN THE HEAVEN. GIVE ME TODAY MY DAILY BREAD, AND THUS, LET ME RECOGNIZE MY TRANSGRESSIONS AND ERRORS, AND I SHALL RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH. AND DO NOT LEAD ME INTO TEMPTATION AND CONFUSION, BUT DELIVER ME FROM ERROR. FOR YOURS IS THE REALM WITHIN ME AND THE POWER AND THE KNOWLEDGE FOREVER,
AMEN.

Nice video: [link to www.youtube.com] Make this World a Better One

Thread: Walter Russell Quotes Walter Russell thread
God Loves ALL

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11/01/2012 11:02 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Another tidbit to add to the "son of God" vs "son of man" mix is that in that time the Roman Emperor would refer to himself as a "son of (a) god."
 Quoting: Life and Love


true.

i find it fascinating that Jesus continues to refer to His humanity over revealing who He was overtly.

i think there is some significance of his human role before His death and after.
 Quoting: Salt


He didn't die on the Cross Salt. he was only in a coma. But it was intended that ones there believe he died, so he could get the hell out of that hell hole. His apostles knew he would NOT die. He told them and he revealed himself to them a few times and ascended into a craft and went to Damascus. He met Saul there about 2 years later. He then hid and went out of there and eventually to India.
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


the urantia book is false. period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


This information I placed is NOT from the Urantia book Salt. In fact they don't actively mention ESU at all who continued on. They at that time for safety did not acknowledge the rest of the story. If you had actually READ the UB you would not have made the above statement. You cannot judge that which you have not read.

This above is the direct teaching of JESUS NOW,(the ESU portion of "jesus", and you can read it here: [link to www.freewebs.com]

Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 11/01/2012 11:06 AM
The actual Lord's Prayer Given by Jesus 2000 years ago.

"MY SPIRIT, YOU ARE OMNIPOTENT. YOUR NAME IS HOLY. MAY YOUR REALM BE INCARNATE IN ME. MAY YOUR POWER REVEAL ITSELF WITHIN ME, ON EARTH AND IN THE HEAVEN. GIVE ME TODAY MY DAILY BREAD, AND THUS, LET ME RECOGNIZE MY TRANSGRESSIONS AND ERRORS, AND I SHALL RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH. AND DO NOT LEAD ME INTO TEMPTATION AND CONFUSION, BUT DELIVER ME FROM ERROR. FOR YOURS IS THE REALM WITHIN ME AND THE POWER AND THE KNOWLEDGE FOREVER,
AMEN.

Nice video: [link to www.youtube.com] Make this World a Better One

Thread: Walter Russell Quotes Walter Russell thread
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
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11/01/2012 11:16 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


true.

i find it fascinating that Jesus continues to refer to His humanity over revealing who He was overtly.

i think there is some significance of his human role before His death and after.
 Quoting: Salt


He didn't die on the Cross Salt. he was only in a coma. But it was intended that ones there believe he died, so he could get the hell out of that hell hole. His apostles knew he would NOT die. He told them and he revealed himself to them a few times and ascended into a craft and went to Damascus. He met Saul there about 2 years later. He then hid and went out of there and eventually to India.
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


the urantia book is false. period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


This information I placed is NOT from the Urantia book Salt. In fact they don't actively mention ESU at all who continued on. They at that time for safety did not acknowledge the rest of the story. If you had actually READ the UB you would not have made the above statement. You cannot judge that which you have not read.

This above is the direct teaching of JESUS NOW,(the ESU portion of "jesus", and you can read it here: [link to www.freewebs.com]
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


the Jesus you speak of is not the real Jesus. it is the counterfeit Jesus whom you continue to be deceived by.

at the core of your beliefs, you continue to negate the cross and the purpose for Jesus' death.

i'm sorry, but you are so immersed in deception it is almost tragic.

i wish i could help you.
david
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11/01/2012 11:26 AM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
perhaps he was claiming his birthright as a son of the spiritual, perfect man.

the one god created in his own image and light.

just a thought...
Spiritoftruth
User ID: 26530436
Australia
11/01/2012 07:34 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


at the resurrection?

when people pass away, they will be like the angels in heaven..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26510026


nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).
 Quoting: Salt


Hi Salt, peace

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


think of it this way. nobody is in the eternal place yet. this includes hell. nobody is placed eternally until judgment day. i don't think they are technically asleep. but, Lazarus was said to have been sleeping. was that metaphoric? maybe.
 Quoting: Salt


The righteous await in place of waiting but the unrightoues and wicked reap in underworld hades until the final judgement, there is two types of Hell the bottomless pit is different only God has transcended all levels to save those bound whom would accept so as that future to be would not transpire for them.
Spiritoftruth
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11/01/2012 07:38 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
...


He didn't die on the Cross Salt. he was only in a coma. But it was intended that ones there believe he died, so he could get the hell out of that hell hole. His apostles knew he would NOT die. He told them and he revealed himself to them a few times and ascended into a craft and went to Damascus. He met Saul there about 2 years later. He then hid and went out of there and eventually to India.
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


the urantia book is false. period, end of sentence.
 Quoting: Salt


This information I placed is NOT from the Urantia book Salt. In fact they don't actively mention ESU at all who continued on. They at that time for safety did not acknowledge the rest of the story. If you had actually READ the UB you would not have made the above statement. You cannot judge that which you have not read.

This above is the direct teaching of JESUS NOW,(the ESU portion of "jesus", and you can read it here: [link to www.freewebs.com]
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


the Jesus you speak of is not the real Jesus. it is the counterfeit Jesus whom you continue to be deceived by.

at the core of your beliefs, you continue to negate the cross and the purpose for Jesus' death.

i'm sorry, but you are so immersed in deception it is almost tragic.

i wish i could help you.
 Quoting: Salt


Salt, we wish to speak to you on matters which cant be disguised publically do you have a email? You have said things which only those intune can and if thou knoweth whom is asking you for your email then we have much to reveal.
Anonymous Coward
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11/01/2012 07:45 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Jesus had a clean DNA, so he was the son of man, we have a moisture betwen pure dna and reptiliann dna, now he must choose in spirit the side we want, the son of man or the son of the serpent, choose wisely, there`s no second chances...
Spiritoftruth
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11/01/2012 07:51 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Thread: The True understanding of the atonement done by Jesus Christ.

Salt read our threads we began, may help ye know further what ye may know inside.

Thread: Be prepared to die for your faith in Christ God.

Thread: God will soon leave the world.
Anonymous Coward
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11/01/2012 07:53 PM
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Re: Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?
Salt,
By any chance are you in a Genesis bible study this year? (BSF?)


hf