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Drudgery: Watching for Clues

 
Jonny Blaze

User ID: 22472711
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11/10/2012 01:10 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
But, I'm having difficulty explaining the impact of that choice while keeping free will in its proper context.

That last point, epistemology, exposes our axioms and paradoxes. In the end we come to realize that there is no such thing as a provable belief or a purely academic philosophy. Everyone ultimately arrives at "nothing", the point at which we all must say "I just accept this because it resonates with me, and I can't explain it or defend it".

For me, my view/faith is in what I believe to be a historical fact as verifiable as any other. I arrived at this acceptance through a series of axioms I believe to be rational and highly probable. I then decided what must logically flow from that foundation. And that's all anyone can say about why they believe as they do.

Beyond that is experience, which as anyone must admit, is as varied as snowflakes. But when coupled with philosophy they form a strong bond. The challenge for anyone is to first come to grips with their own epistemology, then examine whether they have followed it consistently to a logical conclusion. But only people who think the way I do would necessarily agree with that anyway, so here we are back at the beginning.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Absolutely. That's why I resonate so deeply with the philosophy I follow. Instead of contradictions, I see paradox's.

And my personal experiences since I have been exposed to it have only steadfastly solidified my sense of identification with it.

This is why it is so valuable to find people like yourself to spar with. Your experiences and beliefs are every bit as valid as mine. So when we attempt to feel out the nuances of our worthy adversary's understanding of life, we strengthen and sharpen our own sense of understanding in the process.

When you think about it, the way many people just try to beat each other down into submission is such a waste of time. It is an empty way to proceed in life. The moment we decide nothing can be learned from another point of view is the moment we decide that we have nothing left to learn ourselves.
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/10/2012 01:23 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Absolutely. That's why I resonate so deeply with the philosophy I follow. Instead of contradictions, I see paradox's.

And my personal experiences since I have been exposed to it have only steadfastly solidified my sense of identification with it.

This is why it is so valuable to find people like yourself to spar with. Your experiences and beliefs are every bit as valid as mine. So when we attempt to feel out the nuances of our worthy adversary's understanding of life, we strengthen and sharpen our own sense of understanding in the process.

When you think about it, the way many people just try to beat each other down into submission is such a waste of time. It is an empty way to proceed in life. The moment we decide nothing can be learned from another point of view is the moment we decide that we have nothing left to learn ourselves.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


Totally agree. I have often criticized "Sunday School" for not preparing anyone for the world. They sit around and tell each other what they already agree about, and deem disagreement "negative". Then when they go out into the world and encounter so many differences, they don't know how to respond. Some just hand out flowers, others spit venom, but nothing is accomplished; as Jesus put it, "the salt has lost its savor". Even the occasional admission of "iron sharpening iron" doesn't really want anything sharper than safety scissors.

Coincidentally, there was a thread I started about a possible sequence of prophetic events, and early on I mentioned the pre-trib Rapture. Another Christian stated point blank that because I believed this, then everything else I had to say must therefore be wrong, and they refused to even read it. I can't fathom that kind of attitude. It's one thing to see a thread title about Urantia or Scientology and know I have zero interest in hearing about it, but to reject an entire list of events by people in the same faith just because one of them is disputed is something I'll never understand.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

User ID: 22472711
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11/10/2012 01:32 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Totally agree. I have often criticized "Sunday School" for not preparing anyone for the world. They sit around and tell each other what they already agree about, and deem disagreement "negative". Then when they go out into the world and encounter so many differences, they don't know how to respond. Some just hand out flowers, others spit venom, but nothing is accomplished; as Jesus put it, "the salt has lost its savor". Even the occasional admission of "iron sharpening iron" doesn't really want anything sharper than safety scissors.

Coincidentally, there was a thread I started about a possible sequence of prophetic events, and early on I mentioned the pre-trib Rapture. Another Christian stated point blank that because I believed this, then everything else I had to say must therefore be wrong, and they refused to even read it. I can't fathom that kind of attitude. It's one thing to see a thread title about Urantia or Scientology and know I have zero interest in hearing about it, but to reject an entire list of events by people in the same faith just because one of them is disputed is something I'll never understand.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Yep. It's quite unfortunate. It's the same kind of utter social dismissal that one would experience if one walked into a room full of mainstream political junkies and simply said 'I believe that 9/11 was executed with help from within the government'.

Not only would they ridicule you personally, but they would dismiss anything else you had to say about any topic from that point forward.

It's social conformity at it's finest. And it wouldn't just be the 'collectivists' (left) that did it, the supposed 'individualist' (right) would gladly participate.

This is why I reserve a special frustration for 'conservatives' who blindly engage in their brand of social conformity, all the while pretending that they oppose collectivism at its core.

We are not going to agree on many things. But the fact that I like the way you think makes it worth the discussion.
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/10/2012 01:38 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Yep. It's quite unfortunate. It's the same kind of utter social dismissal that one would experience if one walked into a room full of mainstream political junkies and simply said 'I believe that 9/11 was executed with help from within the government'.

Not only would they ridicule you personally, but they would dismiss anything else you had to say about any topic from that point forward.

It's social conformity at it's finest. And it wouldn't just be the 'collectivists' (left) that did it, the supposed 'individualist' (right) would gladly participate.

This is why I reserve a special frustration for 'conservatives' who blindly engage in their brand of social conformity, all the while pretending that they oppose collectivism at its core.

We are not going to agree on many things. But the fact that I like the way you think makes it worth the discussion.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


Absolutely. For whatever reason, we communicate.

A blog post I made a while back about conservatives (I am a libertarian but had been mostly Republican till recent years): [link to www.fether.net]
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

User ID: 22472711
United States
11/10/2012 01:49 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Absolutely. For whatever reason, we communicate.

A blog post I made a while back about conservatives (I am a libertarian but had been mostly Republican till recent years): [link to www.fether.net]
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I too am a libertarian that was raised from a conservative Republican family. ;)
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/10/2012 01:52 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Absolutely. For whatever reason, we communicate.

A blog post I made a while back about conservatives (I am a libertarian but had been mostly Republican till recent years): [link to www.fether.net]
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I too am a libertarian that was raised from a conservative Republican family. ;)
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


That explains it! :-D
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

User ID: 22472711
United States
11/12/2012 10:09 AM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Has it been? So, would you say torture is productive? Is not the end result of torture (by way of waterboarding, sensory deprivation, sensory bombardment, stress positions, threats and execution of bodily harm, etc.) that the torturee simply tells the torturer whatever he thinks the torturer wants to hear in hopes of ending the torture?

Yes, the mind can be broken. Psychotic episodes can certainly be induced. But that doesn't touch a person's impeccability.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Why would I say torture is productive, except for the evil people who would do it? I was only saying that the will can be broken, not whether this was a good thing. I had the impression that you were arguing that this was not possible. And I really didn't mean the mind, but the will; a person can "lose heart" or "lose the will to live" for example.

Also, assuming you mean impeccability in the sense of sinlessness, I would say that sin depends upon free will. Many Christians would disagree (Calvinism especially), but I believe that in order for there to be sin, there must be the free choice to sin or not.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I don't believe the will can be broken. The mind can be broken. The body can be broken. But the will, I believe, is a function that cannot be separated from awareness. It can be surrendered, but never broken.

When I say impeccability, I mean the ability to be flawless or act without sin. When one is acting in perfect correlation with the spirit, one is acting with impeccability. It is an exercise of free will, in my opinion. It is like an indulgence, only it is an indulgence in the will of the spirit instead of an indulgence in the will of the flesh.


Perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying here. To live as though nothing is guaranteed after death begets the proper discernment to priorities what one truly values in life.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Again, I don't see it that way. Some people think that if nothing is guaranteed, then they should live however they want and just take their chances. Life would just be a big gamble. In fact, one of the criticisms of religion is that it controls people's behavior, so it seems to me that faith has more effect on people's behavior than agnosticism, since an accounting for one's life is a motivating force on how that life is lived.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Actually it is the other way around. When we act as if we know everything, the world becomes mundane. It is more exciting to not know. It keeps us on our toes.

If nothing is guaranteed, then the 'gamble' is to take advantage of the moment as it presents itself to you. A person with a good heart, a person who seeks self control rather than control over others, lives life most efficiently in this way. Knowing that nothing is for sure, one must treat every act as if it might be their last.

The motivating force might seem like death, because of the emphasis that one places on it. However, since death is something that resides outside of the touch of life, life becomes the emphasis. It is simply a trick.

That's the thing about death. It cannot be fully ignored, and to attempt to ignore it and our relationship to it is thus endless folly. You spoke of the struggle of free will, well, IMO, the struggle against death encompasses that struggle. I believe that awareness stops death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

But who is ignoring it?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Anyone who believes that death is inconsequential is kidding themselves. If you get in a car wreck, you know. If you get cancer, you know. If someone holds a gun to your head, you know.

Other than these few precious moments when we admit the truth, most people forget and pretend that the driving force in their lives has nothing to do with their personal struggle against death.

Let me pose you this question...how is the possibility that there lies nothing after death any more terrifying than the possibility that one may be eternally damned to hell?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I never said this either. I said it was depressing, not terrifying.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


How is the idea that most of us will just wink out of existence when we die more depressing than the idea that most of us will go to hell when we die?

Is an eternity of suffering less depressing than simply no longer existing?

I do agree that we only choose once to freely serve what we perceive as God's will. However, the choices we make after this point are equally important in our spiritual path. We must be careful not to believe every act we perform is in accordance with God's will. We are constantly developing a better understanding of ourselves and our relationship with God, that is, if we are on the right path. A humble man would never consider himself a Saint while he still had breath in his lungs. To do so would mean he had reached the end of his spiritual potential.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

And once again, this is not my argument. Who believes that "every act we perform is in accordance with God's will"? Only the hyper-Calvinist might believe such a thing.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting tangent here. So then you must concede that the world is full of things that happen every day that are not in accordance with God's will.

Indeed, most actions of men are in defiance of God's will. If one were to follow that line of thought, then 'God's plan' is full of events that happen against his will. One might conclude that God has no control over the future.

So, IMO, we don't forfeit our free will to 'Jesus' or 'God' while we exist, because we must use that ever strengthening free will to realize our potential. Our potential is never reached while we are still here on earth to develop it. We walk a narrow path from the day we choose the path of spiritual enlightenment, but there is still the struggle to go as far down that path as we can go in this life. Thus, the choice carries with it a special intent. A momentum that builds and stays with us. It stays with us to the day we confront death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I thought I already responded to this one. Free will is not nullified by outside limits, any more than the children in a fenced playground cannot freely choose what to play within it.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I think you did respond to it. I was just typing to clarify my views. Typing for the sake of typing?

When we have our last battle with death, we let our spirit flow free and rejoice. We rejoice knowing that our spirit is impeccable. Death will give those it deems worthy a moment to recall our personal power...our highly developed gifts from God. And we laugh as we seek our opening to freedom.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

How do you know? ;-)
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Because I have seen death up close before.

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 11/12/2012 10:13 AM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/12/2012 11:17 AM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I don't believe the will can be broken. The mind can be broken. The body can be broken. But the will, I believe, is a function that cannot be separated from awareness. It can be surrendered, but never broken.

When I say impeccability, I mean the ability to be flawless or act without sin. When one is acting in perfect correlation with the spirit, one is acting with impeccability. It is an exercise of free will, in my opinion. It is like an indulgence, only it is an indulgence in the will of the spirit instead of an indulgence in the will of the flesh.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I do believe the will can be broken. I've often described the teachings of extreme patriarchy in "Christianity" to be the act of hollowing out a woman, of removing that which makes her human, by drilling into her the idea that her will is her own worst enemy. There are many websites documenting this reality. Some women escape; some don't. This is not simply an issue of the mind but of a person's very essence and self-identity.

As for impeccability, there are people whose spirits are so evil that they can do terrible things while "acting in perfect correlation with the spirit". The Bible calls it having a conscience "seared as with a hot iron". So there must be an external, perfect Spirit by which we compare our own, or the definition of good and evil becomes merely a lack of conscience or conflict. In other words, your view presumes a wholesome and altruistic will/spirit, and I dispute this premise.


Actually it is the other way around. When we act as if we know everything, the world becomes mundane. It is more exciting to not know. It keeps us on our toes.

If nothing is guaranteed, then the 'gamble' is to take advantage of the moment as it presents itself to you. A person with a good heart, a person who seeks self control rather than control over others, lives life most efficiently in this way. Knowing that nothing is for sure, one must treat every act as if it might be their last.

The motivating force might seem like death, because of the emphasis that one places on it. However, since death is something that resides outside of the touch of life, life becomes the emphasis. It is simply a trick.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You presume once again that everyone draws the same conclusions, that they hold the same axioms we do. I reject this premise as well.

There are many cases of people who are perfectly content and fulfilled when they cause maximum suffering. I just finished watching a fascinating 3-hr. video on the Rothschilds and related despots, who are the richest of the rich but never satisfied, and show no conscience at all in gaining wealth through war, poverty, and theft. It is the lack of accountability that drives them and satisfies them.

Anyone who believes that death is inconsequential is kidding themselves. If you get in a car wreck, you know. If you get cancer, you know. If someone holds a gun to your head, you know.

Other than these few precious moments when we admit the truth, most people forget and pretend that the driving force in their lives has nothing to do with their personal struggle against death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

When I ask who is ignoring it, it was in response to what I perceived as your question to me; sorry for any misunderstanding.

Still, most people seem to at least hold to a concept of life after death wherein they will be held to account, and this has an effect upon how they live. The gamblers are the atheists and possibly some agnostics, who either are foolishly confident that there will be no accounting, or who foolishly gamble that there probably won't be, or that if there is, they will come out all right.


How is the idea that most of us will just wink out of existence when we die more depressing than the idea that most of us will go to hell when we die?

Is an eternity of suffering less depressing than simply no longer existing?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

An eternal end to existence means this life is utterly devoid of meaning, and that people I love will never be seen again. That is a thought I find very depressing. It means that my life and the lives of others, their triumphs and tragedies, are no more significant than the waves of the sea.

But if this is not the end, then there is meaning to life, and the hope of never again being separated from loved ones.

I agree that IF a person rejects God, it would be better to just disappear. Yet this is not a fate but a personal choice, and a deliberate one. If people choose to be separated from God for eternity, so be it. If they find that choice acceptable, their wills will not be violated. Otherwise God would be a mere puppet master. That is, to fail to allow the choice of eternal separation is to violate free will, and only a free will can give genuine love.

So whether an eternity of suffering is depressing depends solely upon the individual.


Interesting tangent here. So then you must concede that the world is full of things that happen every day that are not in accordance with God's will.

Indeed, most actions of men are in defiance of God's will. If one were to follow that line of thought, then 'God's plan' is full of events that happen against his will. One might conclude that God has no control over the future.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Concede? On the contrary, I freely and deliberately affirm it. Free will would not exist without the allowance of wills antagonistic to the will of God.

But it is a non-sequitur to conclude that this means God cannot control the future. Remember the playground illustration? The children do not decide where the playground is, how big it is, what toys or apparatus it contains, or when they can be there.

This gets into what is known as "middle knowledge" and "possible worlds". I liken it to a game of chess: with each move, the set of remaining possible moves changes. Yet an expert player can almost always win, not by cheating but by being able to see farther ahead than the opponent. God of course is the perfect chess master, and not even Satan can win against Him.

So God can indeed control and predict the future without causing it or violating free will. He is God, and we're not.


Because I have seen death up close before.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Yet others will tell you they were clinically dead but never had a NDE. You are convinced, but you cannot know it as an indisputable proof. Similarly, I am convinced, but cannot prove empirically, that Jesus rose from the dead, and that the Bible accurately conveys the will of God and the history of mankind. This experience of yours is a personal conviction, an axiom, a given, upon which you base other logical conclusions. But it is not something you can know outside of yourself.

I wish I could remember the website of this guy who made an excellent and detailed argument when discussing evolution, which proved (to my satisfaction anyway) that no system can prove itself within itself. That is, to explain the universe means getting beyond it, which is impossible.

Likewise, our epistemology is entirely self-contained. Our experiences and thoughts are things we cannot get outside of entirely, because we always use our preconceived epistemology to reason and observe. Therefore we must have an external entity, God if you will, to settle all disputes and make perfect judgments upon how people lived. This is what I mean when I say I do not trust myself entirely; not that I have no confidence, but that I know my limits.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/12/2012 11:19 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

User ID: 22472711
United States
11/12/2012 12:10 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I don't believe the will can be broken. The mind can be broken. The body can be broken. But the will, I believe, is a function that cannot be separated from awareness. It can be surrendered, but never broken.

When I say impeccability, I mean the ability to be flawless or act without sin. When one is acting in perfect correlation with the spirit, one is acting with impeccability. It is an exercise of free will, in my opinion. It is like an indulgence, only it is an indulgence in the will of the spirit instead of an indulgence in the will of the flesh.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I do believe the will can be broken. I've often described the teachings of extreme patriarchy in "Christianity" to be the act of hollowing out a woman, of removing that which makes her human, by drilling into her the idea that her will is her own worst enemy. There are many websites documenting this reality. Some women escape; some don't. This is not simply an issue of the mind but of a person's very essence and self-identity.

As for impeccability, there are people whose spirits are so evil that they can do terrible things while "acting in perfect correlation with the spirit". The Bible calls it having a conscience "seared as with a hot iron". So there must be an external, perfect Spirit by which we compare our own, or the definition of good and evil becomes merely a lack of conscience or conflict. In other words, your view presumes a wholesome and altruistic will/spirit, and I dispute this premise.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Interesting that you say 'hollowing out'. To me, that is an accurate energetic description of having children. We sacrifice a piece of our energetic bodies to create the energetic body of the child. But it has a price, IMO. The price is a 'hollowing out' of our ability to practice impeccable intent. Those who have children become timid. They aren't as bold as they used to be. They test the waters whereas before they would just dive right in.

And as for those people whose spirits are evil. This is not impeccability. As I see it, impeccability can only be obtained by losing self importance, taking responsibility for one's acts, and using death as an adviser.

Those evil doers who seek control over others refuse to take responsibility for their acts. Instead, they manipulate others into taking responsibility for the actions they trick others into taking through deception, seduction, and materialistic based bribery.

My view does presume a wholesome and altruistic spirit. It is complete and flawless. But it also assumes a corrosive and parasitic spirit, which is flawless in it's own way. It is flawlessly bent on the control and exhaustion of others.

For this reason, following the impeccable spirit of self-control and self-awareness forges an intent that is untouchable by the most evil of supernatural forces.

Actually it is the other way around. When we act as if we know everything, the world becomes mundane. It is more exciting to not know. It keeps us on our toes.

If nothing is guaranteed, then the 'gamble' is to take advantage of the moment as it presents itself to you. A person with a good heart, a person who seeks self control rather than control over others, lives life most efficiently in this way. Knowing that nothing is for sure, one must treat every act as if it might be their last.

The motivating force might seem like death, because of the emphasis that one places on it. However, since death is something that resides outside of the touch of life, life becomes the emphasis. It is simply a trick.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You presume once again that everyone draws the same conclusions, that they hold the same axioms we do. I reject this premise as well.

There are many cases of people who are perfectly content and fulfilled when they cause maximum suffering. I just finished watching a fascinating 3-hr. video on the Rothschilds and related despots, who are the richest of the rich but never satisfied, and show no conscience at all in gaining wealth through war, poverty, and theft. It is the lack of accountability that drives them and satisfies them.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I presume that there is such a thing as universal truths and universal law. Both in the physical realm and the spiritual.

I totally disagree that there exists people who are perfectly content and fulfilled when they cause maximum suffering. On it's very face, this is utterly false. You contradict yourself by going on to state that these evil people are never satisfied, which is true.

Continuously craving something while repeating the act over and over again is not perfect contentment or satisfaction. It is fixation. It is the end of evolution and the abandonment of potential. It is endless folly.

Trying without craving. Detachment. Moving on to other things. Continuously changing, evolving. Having the fluidity to change one's routines in the blink of an eye. THAT is perfect contentment and satisfaction.

Perfect satisfaction is performing an act and never needing to perform the act again.


How is the idea that most of us will just wink out of existence when we die more depressing than the idea that most of us will go to hell when we die?

Is an eternity of suffering less depressing than simply no longer existing?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

An eternal end to existence means this life is utterly devoid of meaning, and that people I love will never be seen again. That is a thought I find very depressing. It means that my life and the lives of others, their triumphs and tragedies, are no more significant than the waves of the sea.

But if this is not the end, then there is meaning to life, and the hope of never again being separated from loved ones.

I agree that IF a person rejects God, it would be better to just disappear. Yet this is not a fate but a personal choice, and a deliberate one. If people choose to be separated from God for eternity, so be it. If they find that choice acceptable, their wills will not be violated. Otherwise God would be a mere puppet master. That is, to fail to allow the choice of eternal separation is to violate free will, and only a free will can give genuine love.

So whether an eternity of suffering is depressing depends solely upon the individual.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Possibly. But, again, I didn't say that I believe this is guaranteed. I said that it wasn't. I said that it is possible to slip past the force that devours awareness the moment after we die. To slip past it and venture off into infinity with our awareness intact.

And, I don't see how hell would be any different than an 'eternal end to existence'. That statement is ripe with duality.

Also, if this may not be the end, then certainly this life has a great deal of meaning. The clarity is what I have an issue with.


Interesting tangent here. So then you must concede that the world is full of things that happen every day that are not in accordance with God's will.

Indeed, most actions of men are in defiance of God's will. If one were to follow that line of thought, then 'God's plan' is full of events that happen against his will. One might conclude that God has no control over the future.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Concede? On the contrary, I freely and deliberately affirm it. Free will would not exist without the allowance of wills antagonistic to the will of God.

But it is a non-sequitur to conclude that this means God cannot control the future. Remember the playground illustration? The children do not decide where the playground is, how big it is, what toys or apparatus it contains, or when they can be there.

This gets into what is known as "middle knowledge" and "possible worlds". I liken it to a game of chess: with each move, the set of remaining possible moves changes. Yet an expert player can almost always win, not by cheating but by being able to see farther ahead than the opponent. God of course is the perfect chess master, and not even Satan can win against Him.

So God can indeed control and predict the future without causing it or violating free will. He is God, and we're not.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I agree. I just wanted to see your rebuttal.

Because I have seen death up close before.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Yet others will tell you they were clinically dead but never had a NDE. You are convinced, but you cannot know it as an indisputable proof. Similarly, I am convinced, but cannot prove empirically, that Jesus rose from the dead, and that the Bible accurately conveys the will of God and the history of mankind. This experience of yours is a personal conviction, an axiom, a given, upon which you base other logical conclusions. But it is not something you can know outside of yourself.

I wish I could remember the website of this guy who made an excellent and detailed argument when discussing evolution, which proved (to my satisfaction anyway) that no system can prove itself within itself. That is, to explain the universe means getting beyond it, which is impossible.

Likewise, our epistemology is entirely self-contained. Our experiences and thoughts are things we cannot get outside of entirely, because we always use our preconceived epistemology to reason and observe. Therefore we must have an external entity, God if you will, to settle all disputes and make perfect judgments upon how people lived. This is what I mean when I say I do not trust myself entirely; not that I have no confidence, but that I know my limits.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I certainly can know it is indisputable proof. But this is a personal matter concerning my personal power. Like you allude to, I don't need or require other people to accept what I know as fact. It would intrude on their own path and their own free will. I don't wish to control them, and I don't derive my confidence from their views of me.

That is the difference between me and most others. I seek impeccability in my own eyes and call it humbleness.

I also know that I have limits. But it is not my place to know what they are with any clarity. How can one know the line between the unknown and the unknowable?

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 11/12/2012 12:15 PM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/12/2012 01:23 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Interesting that you say 'hollowing out'. To me, that is an accurate energetic description of having children. We sacrifice a piece of our energetic bodies to create the energetic body of the child. But it has a price, IMO. The price is a 'hollowing out' of our ability to practice impeccable intent. Those who have children become timid. They aren't as bold as they used to be. They test the waters whereas before they would just dive right in.

And as for those people whose spirits are evil. This is not impeccability. As I see it, impeccability can only be obtained by losing self importance, taking responsibility for one's acts, and using death as an adviser.

Those evil doers who seek control over others refuse to take responsibility for their acts. Instead, they manipulate others into taking responsibility for the actions they trick others into taking through deception, seduction, and materialistic based bribery.

My view does presume a wholesome and altruistic spirit. It is complete and flawless. But it also assumes a corrosive and parasitic spirit, which is flawless in it's own way. It is flawlessly bent on the control and exhaustion of others.

For this reason, following the impeccable spirit of self-control and self-awareness forges an intent that is untouchable by the most evil of supernatural forces.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

What I mean by "hollowing out" is kind of like removing all the insides of a pumpkin, not emptying a glass. The key difference is that the pumpkin loses a lot of itself; in fact, it loses what it was grown for (except a certain holiday of course). But a glass loses nothing of itself. When a woman gives birth, she does not lose her essence or identity, but creates more than she was born with.

In extreme contrast, a woman who is told that her very nature is a vile sinner such that she must be kept on a leash by a man, has had her essence carved out of her. She loses what she was born to be and is reduced to an organic robot or slave. Her will is deemed evil and is relentlessly hammered until she forgets who she was or would have been. Like the pumpkin, she is an empty shell.

I agree that for any number of reasons a person may act against their will--- but they still have their will or they would not be acting against it. But the woman who has been a victim of patriarchy has lost herself and become an automaton.

So I still hold that the will can be broken, and that not all spirits are intrinsically benevolent.

I presume that there is such a thing as universal truths and universal law. Both in the physical realm and the spiritual.

I totally disagree that there exists people who are perfectly content and fulfilled when they cause maximum suffering. On it's very face, this is utterly false. You contradict yourself by going on to state that these evil people are never satisfied, which is true.

Continuously craving something while repeating the act over and over again is not perfect contentment or satisfaction. It is fixation. It is the end of evolution and the abandonment of potential. It is endless folly.

Trying without craving. Detachment. Moving on to other things. Continuously changing, evolving. Having the fluidity to change one's routines in the blink of an eye. THAT is perfect contentment and satisfaction.

Perfect satisfaction is performing an act and never needing to perform the act again.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

I agree that there are universal truths and laws, but hold that these are derived from outside the universe itself.

I disagree that there are no people who are satisfied by evil. Fulfillment by benevolent people suffers the same contradiction: who is ever satisfied from doing good, such that they never want to do good again? I believe you are equivocating on the meaning of the word: it's not that it means the end of something, but that it is something a person enjoys or finds satisfying. In fact, the Bible tells us to never be tired of doing good, to keep at it, and that this constitutes satisfaction and fulfillment.

I also dispute the claim that there is such a thing as perfect detachment, though I know any good Buddhist would insist otherwise. Suffering is not, as he claimed, due to cravings or attachments, but to rebellion against God. Can you honestly say that if you have loved someone, that you never want to love them or anyone else again? Is not attachment part and parcel of love? I find such a concept the same as annihilation or the Hindu concept of complete loss of self into Brahma: sad and pointless.

Possibly. But, again, I didn't say that I believe this is guaranteed. I said that it wasn't. I said that it is possible to slip past the force that devours awareness the moment after we die. To slip past it and venture off into infinity with our awareness intact.

And, I don't see how hell would be any different than an 'eternal end to existence'. That statement is ripe with duality.

Also, if this may not be the end, then certainly this life has a great deal of meaning. The clarity is what I have an issue with.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

I thought this was what you "knew" because of your experience with death.

The difference between hell and annihilation is consciousness. To be aware of one's eternal separation from God is hugely different from being unconscious.

If your issue is with clarity, then how can you be assured that detachment is a good thing, or know anything at all, even if you experienced it? You have expressed much of this clarity in your own views, so how can you take issue with it in mine?


I agree. I just wanted to see your rebuttal.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Um... k, I'll take your word for it. ;-)

I certainly can know it is indisputable proof. But this is a personal matter concerning my personal power. Like you allude to, I don't need or require other people to accept what I know as fact. It would intrude on their own path and their own free will. I don't wish to control them, and I don't derive my confidence from their views of me.

That is the difference between me and most others. I seek impeccability in my own eyes and call it humbleness.

I also know that I have limits. But it is not my place to know what they are with any clarity. How can one know the line between the unknown and the unknowable?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Clarity, eh?

And if as you said there are universal truths, then not all things are personal matters. And if I am convinced that a truth is vital for someone else to know because otherwise they are in danger, it is incumbent upon me to "intrude on their own path", though this hardly necessitates intruding on their free will to accept or reject my message. Neither does it mean I wish to control them, any more than the person warning about an impending disaster wishes to control others.

As for humility, for me it comes from knowing that I am not my own creator or my own savior. Because God created all, I walk in humility and gratitude, which includes the Golden Rule: treat others as you'd like them to treat you. God calls it arrogant for any of his created beings to declare their own impeccability, because they are declaring themselves equal to God. And if this is true and factual, nothing anyone wants to believe to the contrary can change it.

How can we know where the boundary is between known and unknown? We can't, by ourselves, but we can if we seek God and listen to him. Jesus came as the ultimate expression of God to us, his communication and guidance, such that we are without excuse if we reject him. But even just with philosophy and logic, we eventually come to the place where we know we cannot escape ourselves and are thus at the mercy of an outside Force to enlighten us.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/12/2012 02:31 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Interesting that you say 'hollowing out'. To me, that is an accurate energetic description of having children. We sacrifice a piece of our energetic bodies to create the energetic body of the child. But it has a price, IMO. The price is a 'hollowing out' of our ability to practice impeccable intent. Those who have children become timid. They aren't as bold as they used to be. They test the waters whereas before they would just dive right in.

And as for those people whose spirits are evil. This is not impeccability. As I see it, impeccability can only be obtained by losing self importance, taking responsibility for one's acts, and using death as an adviser.

Those evil doers who seek control over others refuse to take responsibility for their acts. Instead, they manipulate others into taking responsibility for the actions they trick others into taking through deception, seduction, and materialistic based bribery.

My view does presume a wholesome and altruistic spirit. It is complete and flawless. But it also assumes a corrosive and parasitic spirit, which is flawless in it's own way. It is flawlessly bent on the control and exhaustion of others.

For this reason, following the impeccable spirit of self-control and self-awareness forges an intent that is untouchable by the most evil of supernatural forces.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

What I mean by "hollowing out" is kind of like removing all the insides of a pumpkin, not emptying a glass. The key difference is that the pumpkin loses a lot of itself; in fact, it loses what it was grown for (except a certain holiday of course). But a glass loses nothing of itself. When a woman gives birth, she does not lose her essence or identity, but creates more than she was born with.

In extreme contrast, a woman who is told that her very nature is a vile sinner such that she must be kept on a leash by a man, has had her essence carved out of her. She loses what she was born to be and is reduced to an organic robot or slave. Her will is deemed evil and is relentlessly hammered until she forgets who she was or would have been. Like the pumpkin, she is an empty shell.

I agree that for any number of reasons a person may act against their will--- but they still have their will or they would not be acting against it. But the woman who has been a victim of patriarchy has lost herself and become an automaton.

So I still hold that the will can be broken, and that not all spirits are intrinsically benevolent.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I disagree. She and the father together create a piece of what they were born with...two pieces that when combine create a separate awareness that have more or less energetic potential than they were born with. We can't create something out of nothing.

What is sacrificed, I believe is the 'completeness' of the energetic body. A part of the totality of ourselves is lost when we act to create another.

I don't believe we can act against our will. Everything is voluntary. If someone puts a gun to your head and demands that you kill another or you will be killed...you exercised your will to survive.

If someone breaks your mind through extreme stress and torture, you are no longer yourself. Your spirit has lost it's connection with your body and your will can no longer be expressed through your body.

I still hold that the will cannot be broken. And I agree that not all spirits are intrinsically benevolent. However, the spirit of man on an individual level has within them the potential to be.

I presume that there is such a thing as universal truths and universal law. Both in the physical realm and the spiritual.

I totally disagree that there exists people who are perfectly content and fulfilled when they cause maximum suffering. On it's very face, this is utterly false. You contradict yourself by going on to state that these evil people are never satisfied, which is true.

Continuously craving something while repeating the act over and over again is not perfect contentment or satisfaction. It is fixation. It is the end of evolution and the abandonment of potential. It is endless folly.

Trying without craving. Detachment. Moving on to other things. Continuously changing, evolving. Having the fluidity to change one's routines in the blink of an eye. THAT is perfect contentment and satisfaction.

Perfect satisfaction is performing an act and never needing to perform the act again.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I agree that there are universal truths and laws, but hold that these are derived from outside the universe itself.

I disagree that there are no people who are satisfied by evil. Fulfillment by benevolent people suffers the same contradiction: who is ever satisfied from doing good, such that they never want to do good again? I believe you are equivocating on the meaning of the word: it's not that it means the end of something, but that it is something a person enjoys or finds satisfying. In fact, the Bible tells us to never be tired of doing good, to keep at it, and that this constitutes satisfaction and fulfillment.

I also dispute the claim that there is such a thing as perfect detachment, though I know any good Buddhist would insist otherwise. Suffering is not, as he claimed, due to cravings or attachments, but to rebellion against God. Can you honestly say that if you have loved someone, that you never want to love them or anyone else again? Is not attachment part and parcel of love? I find such a concept the same as annihilation or the Hindu concept of complete loss of self into Brahma: sad and pointless.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Yes. Doing 'good' certainly does suffer the same contradiction. It is a result of duality and the misuse of the clarity that comes from labeling everything as thesis/antithesis. I believe there are no monsters or saints. There is no such thing persecutors and victims. Victory or defeat. This is precisely my point. All that is the illusion of struggle. There only exists challenges. And challenges cannot possibly be good or bad.

But 'fulfillment' is by its very definition is to achieve something. Accomplishment. Completion. So, why does a serial killer keep killing? Is he not fulfilled? Do his acts not complete him? I would argue that if they did, he would stop killing and withdraw to a different life, having fulfilled his purpose. But you would have to agree that the fixation on this routine is not fulfillment...it is insatiable lust.

It the same way, a person who 'does good' by and for others is faced with the same struggle. His acts are never complete. He rarely gets true fulfillment from them. His desire, his innermost predilection is expressed in his acts, and acting upon his desires never quenches his thirst. If he does achieve fulfillment, he moves onto something else. Another challenge. Challenges are not hard to find.

Fulfillment is something to strive for. Something to aim at. It's the nature of the man that determines the direction of his actions. This is exactly why death should never be looked past. It is our unavoidable encounter with death that determines the line between the unknown and the unknowable. The sum of our totality will be expressed when we face our final battle with death.

Possibly. But, again, I didn't say that I believe this is guaranteed. I said that it wasn't. I said that it is possible to slip past the force that devours awareness the moment after we die. To slip past it and venture off into infinity with our awareness intact.

And, I don't see how hell would be any different than an 'eternal end to existence'. That statement is ripe with duality.

Also, if this may not be the end, then certainly this life has a great deal of meaning. The clarity is what I have an issue with.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I thought this was what you "knew" because of your experience with death.

The difference between hell and annihilation is consciousness. To be aware of one's eternal separation from God is hugely different from being unconscious.

If your issue is with clarity, then how can you be assured that detachment is a good thing, or know anything at all, even if you experienced it? You have expressed much of this clarity in your own views, so how can you take issue with it in mine?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


For the same reason you are assured that eternal separation from God is hugely different than being unconscious of the separation.

Detachment is the sense that comes from one exercising one's ability to stop one's internal dialogue and simply perceive the world without it. Instead of talking to ourselves about the world, being silent and aware of the world. The sense of detachment gives one an extra moment to assess things. A moment that one uses more efficiently because there is no need to press ideas into words needed to describe them. Why do we need to talk to ourselves in moments where verbal communication with others is unnecessary?

Inner silence gives one an extra moment to assess and act. To be used consistently and correctly, however, one has to struggle unyieldingly for the duration of one's life.


I certainly can know it is indisputable proof. But this is a personal matter concerning my personal power. Like you allude to, I don't need or require other people to accept what I know as fact. It would intrude on their own path and their own free will. I don't wish to control them, and I don't derive my confidence from their views of me.

That is the difference between me and most others. I seek impeccability in my own eyes and call it humbleness.

I also know that I have limits. But it is not my place to know what they are with any clarity. How can one know the line between the unknown and the unknowable?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Clarity, eh?

And if as you said there are universal truths, then not all things are personal matters. And if I am convinced that a truth is vital for someone else to know because otherwise they are in danger, it is incumbent upon me to "intrude on their own path", though this hardly necessitates intruding on their free will to accept or reject my message. Neither does it mean I wish to control them, any more than the person warning about an impending disaster wishes to control others.

As for humility, for me it comes from knowing that I am not my own creator or my own savior. Because God created all, I walk in humility and gratitude, which includes the Golden Rule: treat others as you'd like them to treat you. God calls it arrogant for any of his created beings to declare their own impeccability, because they are declaring themselves equal to God. And if this is true and factual, nothing anyone wants to believe to the contrary can change it.

How can we know where the boundary is between known and unknown? We can't, by ourselves, but we can if we seek God and listen to him. Jesus came as the ultimate expression of God to us, his communication and guidance, such that we are without excuse if we reject him. But even just with philosophy and logic, we eventually come to the place where we know we cannot escape ourselves and are thus at the mercy of an outside Force to enlighten us.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You intrude because you feel compelled to do so. It is a reflection of your innermost predilection in that moment. Is the intrusion good or bad? I say it is just a struggle.

And when did God tell you this?

First of all, an warrior seeking impeccability would never go around declaring himself to be impeccable. Like I said, he seeks impeccability in his own eyes. He doesn't derive his self confidence from the ideas his fellow man has about him. His impeccability is expressed by is actions, not verbal declarations.

Impeccability is a struggle, like everything else. A warrior's spirit may be impeccable (or have impeccable potential), but that's not to say he expresses his impeccable spirit with every action he takes.

Once he achieves totality, he has mastered impeccability. And one does not achieve totality by exhausting oneself or others. One achieves it by conserving the energy others spend frivolously by constantly propping up their sense of self-importance and their fixation on personal history.
Jonny Blaze

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11/12/2012 02:37 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I spent so much time on that post I got logged out.

HAH!
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/12/2012 03:01 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I thought this AC sounded familiar... :-)


I disagree. She and the father together create a piece of what they were born with...two pieces that when combine create a separate awareness that have more or less energetic potential than they were born with. We can't create something out of nothing.

What is sacrificed, I believe is the 'completeness' of the energetic body. A part of the totality of ourselves is lost when we act to create another.

I don't believe we can act against our will. Everything is voluntary. If someone puts a gun to your head and demands that you kill another or you will be killed...you exercised your will to survive.

If someone breaks your mind through extreme stress and torture, you are no longer yourself. Your spirit has lost it's connection with your body and your will can no longer be expressed through your body.

I still hold that the will cannot be broken. And I agree that not all spirits are intrinsically benevolent. However, the spirit of man on an individual level has within them the potential to be.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22472711

My point about giving birth is that it is not a "hollowing out", and that she does not lose any essential part of who she was before that. I didn't mean to convey that she did it all herself. Certainly there is sacrifice; nobody would disagree with that. But she is still who she was before in the basic, human sense. People change continually but this does not mean they become someone else, IMHO.

I think we have reached an impasse on the breaking of the will, though we agree that spirits have potential. That's the essence of salvation: that we can change our minds and use our free will to make a decision about the offer God makes through the risen Jesus.


Yes. Doing 'good' certainly does suffer the same contradiction. It is a result of duality and the misuse of the clarity that comes from labeling everything as thesis/antithesis. I believe there are no monsters or saints. There is no such thing persecutors and victims. Victory or defeat. This is precisely my point. All that is the illusion of struggle. There only exists challenges. And challenges cannot possibly be good or bad.

But 'fulfillment' is by its very definition is to achieve something. Accomplishment. Completion. So, why does a serial killer keep killing? Is he not fulfilled? Do his acts not complete him? I would argue that if they did, he would stop killing and withdraw to a different life, having fulfilled his purpose. But you would have to agree that the fixation on this routine is not fulfillment...it is insatiable lust.

It the same way, a person who 'does good' by and for others is faced with the same struggle. His acts are never complete. He rarely gets true fulfillment from them. His desire, his innermost predilection is expressed in his acts, and acting upon his desires never quenches his thirst. If he does achieve fulfillment, he moves onto something else. Another challenge. Challenges are not hard to find.

Fulfillment is something to strive for. Something to aim at. It's the nature of the man that determines the direction of his actions. This is exactly why death should never be looked past. It is our unavoidable encounter with death that determines the line between the unknown and the unknowable. The sum of our totality will be expressed when we face our final battle with death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Yet if there are indeed universal truths, then there are dualities. The Law of Non-contradiction in logic states that A and not-A cannot be true at the same time in the same context. So if there is really only one true God, all other gods must be false; there is no gray area between them. This is an example of a legitimate duality. You use duality when you speak of 'clarity' because you hold certain things to be true, which means any contradictory things must be false. The Hegelian Dialectic is not a good thing at all, in my opinion, because it turns away from the true just as much as the false, and creates something that can be neither.

Yes, to fulfill is to achieve, but some things can never be ended. Love must never end; happiness must never end; learning must never end. Yet in all these things we are satisfied; we lack nothing. It's a paradox.


For the same reason you are assured that eternal separation from God is hugely different than being unconscious of the separation.

Detachment is the sense that comes from one exercising one's ability to stop one's internal dialogue and simply perceive the world without it. Instead of talking to ourselves about the world, being silent and aware of the world. The sense of detachment gives one an extra moment to assess things. A moment that one uses more efficiently because there is no need to press ideas into words needed to describe them. Why do we need to talk to ourselves in moments where verbal communication with others is unnecessary?

Inner silence gives one an extra moment to assess and act. To be used consistently and correctly, however, one has to struggle unyieldingly for the duration of one's life.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Again, my question about your use of clarity was simply to show that your view suffers from all of the faults you have cited for mine.

A lack of dialog reduces a person to an unthinking animal, an organism that only reacts to its environment. Any living thing can just observe without thought. But we are made in the image of God, sentient beings meant to create and improve and mature.

I find it ironic that you must work so hard to achieve "nothing". ;-)



You intrude because you feel compelled to do so. It is a reflection of your innermost predilection in that moment. Is the intrusion good or bad? I say it is just a struggle.

And when did God tell you this?

First of all, an warrior seeking impeccability would never go around declaring himself to be impeccable. Like I said, he seeks impeccability in his own eyes. He doesn't derive his self confidence from the ideas his fellow man has about him. His impeccability is expressed by is actions, not verbal declarations.

Impeccability is a struggle, like everything else. A warrior's spirit may be impeccable (or have impeccable potential), but that's not to say he expresses his impeccable spirit with every action he takes.

Once he achieves totality, he has mastered impeccability. And one does not achieve totality by exhausting oneself or others. One achieves it by conserving the energy others spend frivolously by constantly propping up their sense of self-importance and their fixation on personal history.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


I "intrude" because I care; there is no struggle in caring.

God told me to care because he showed me he cared. He gave me spiritual food, so I am compelled to tell others where to find it also. Because I care.

To me, impeccability is not a struggle, any more than craving yummy chocolate is a struggle. I strive for that which I desire. This is maturity, growth, and a matter of personal choice. Salvation, on the other hand, is a gift one can only accept or reject; this cannot be earned or striven for. This is something Jesus "mastered" on behalf of everyone who accepts him.

You can have inner peace, impeccability, and totality without any effort at all. This is what Jesus offers to you freely.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

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11/12/2012 03:41 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
(The posts I've left out I believe we both think have drawn to a temporary impasse. Feel free to ressurect them at any time. We'll call it a Lazarus post. ;) )

For the same reason you are assured that eternal separation from God is hugely different than being unconscious of the separation.

Detachment is the sense that comes from one exercising one's ability to stop one's internal dialogue and simply perceive the world without it. Instead of talking to ourselves about the world, being silent and aware of the world. The sense of detachment gives one an extra moment to assess things. A moment that one uses more efficiently because there is no need to press ideas into words needed to describe them. Why do we need to talk to ourselves in moments where verbal communication with others is unnecessary?

Inner silence gives one an extra moment to assess and act. To be used consistently and correctly, however, one has to struggle unyieldingly for the duration of one's life.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Again, my question about your use of clarity was simply to show that your view suffers from all of the faults you have cited for mine.

A lack of dialog reduces a person to an unthinking animal, an organism that only reacts to its environment. Any living thing can just observe without thought. But we are made in the image of God, sentient beings meant to create and improve and mature.

I find it ironic that you must work so hard to achieve "nothing". ;-)
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


My view of clarity is paradoxical. I believe clarity is one of man's natural enemies which resides within. We suffer from clarity when we believe something with absolute assurance without considering other possibilities.

The only way to counter act clarity is to understand that it is possible to act without believing. To act without expecting rewards or specific outcomes. To act just for the hell of it. There is a certain peace and happiness that comes with acting with the full knowledge that the very act one is performing may be one's last act on this earth. I believe that the suspension of belief is much more engulfing than the suspension of dis-belief. I believe that acting with the suspension of belief provides full access to intent. And intent is what makes one invulnerable.

In my view, I find it humorous that you equate my view of struggling against yourself to find spiritual intent with 'nothing'. I find it even more humorous that you might be dead on balls accurate.

As for your assertion that having the ability to stop one's internal dialogue reduces one to an 'unthinking' animal...well, I will take a moment to apologize to all of the animals you almost offended by your words.

The ability to be offended by the words of another, ironically, is one edge all other of God's creations possess over us 'superior' humans. Indeed, it may be the source of the incredible waste of energy and resources humans constantly squander.

You intrude because you feel compelled to do so. It is a reflection of your innermost predilection in that moment. Is the intrusion good or bad? I say it is just a struggle.

And when did God tell you this?

First of all, an warrior seeking impeccability would never go around declaring himself to be impeccable. Like I said, he seeks impeccability in his own eyes. He doesn't derive his self confidence from the ideas his fellow man has about him. His impeccability is expressed by is actions, not verbal declarations.

Impeccability is a struggle, like everything else. A warrior's spirit may be impeccable (or have impeccable potential), but that's not to say he expresses his impeccable spirit with every action he takes.

Once he achieves totality, he has mastered impeccability. And one does not achieve totality by exhausting oneself or others. One achieves it by conserving the energy others spend frivolously by constantly propping up their sense of self-importance and their fixation on personal history.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


I "intrude" because I care; there is no struggle in caring.

God told me to care because he showed me he cared. He gave me spiritual food, so I am compelled to tell others where to find it also. Because I care.

To me, impeccability is not a struggle, any more than craving yummy chocolate is a struggle. I strive for that which I desire. This is maturity, growth, and a matter of personal choice. Salvation, on the other hand, is a gift one can only accept or reject; this cannot be earned or striven for. This is something Jesus "mastered" on behalf of everyone who accepts him.

You can have inner peace, impeccability, and totality without any effort at all. This is what Jesus offers to you freely.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You could not be more wrong about this. Impeccability is a struggle. Craving yummy chocolate is simply an indulgence. It is giving into the craving that avoids the struggle.

I also strive for what I desire. But what I desire is impeccable intent. Unbending intent. And one cannot 'master' this by simply believing another mastered it for him. Endless indulgence is not a gift I would accept from anyone. I can do that on my own without outside help too.

To sit back and 'declare' that you are saved by Jesus, in my view, is no different than declaring you are equal to God. You are, in my view, claiming you received a gift that God gave to everybody to develop and declaring it a gift without potential. You claim it has no potential because 'Jesus' already mastered it.

A true master would never let his apprentices off so easily.

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 11/12/2012 03:43 PM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/12/2012 04:06 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
My view of clarity is paradoxical. I believe clarity is one of man's natural enemies which resides within. We suffer from clarity when we believe something with absolute assurance without considering other possibilities.

The only way to counter act clarity is to understand that it is possible to act without believing. To act without expecting rewards or specific outcomes. To act just for the hell of it. There is a certain peace and happiness that comes with acting with the full knowledge that the very act one is performing may be one's last act on this earth. I believe that the suspension of belief is much more engulfing than the suspension of dis-belief. I believe that acting with the suspension of belief provides full access to intent. And intent is what makes one invulnerable.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I often do things just because I enjoy them, not because I get something in the way of rewards. Everybody does that at times. And I don't see why this would even be raised as some kind of conflict with anything I've said.

In my view, I find it humorous that you equate my view of struggling against yourself to find spiritual intent with 'nothing'. I find it even more humorous that you might be dead on balls accurate.

As for your assertion that having the ability to stop one's internal dialogue reduces one to an 'unthinking' animal...well, I will take a moment to apologize to all of the animals you almost offended by your words.

The ability to be offended by the words of another, ironically, is one edge all other of God's creations possess over us 'superior' humans. Indeed, it may be the source of the incredible waste of energy and resources humans constantly squander.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Do you mean inability?

To be sure, there are some animals we find great companionship with. But my point was that, as I think you are saying here, humans are not like the rest of creation. And wastefulness is one of many results of sin entering the world; this explanation is one I find satisfactory for all that is wrong with the world. We are not perfect, but this is no reason to be so disparaging of the human race as you seem to be. Jesus came to offer new life for all who ask, and to clean up the mess of the world when the time is right.


You could not be more wrong about this. Impeccability is a struggle. Craving yummy chocolate is simply an indulgence. It is giving into the craving that avoids the struggle.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

That's exactly my point: spiritual growth and maturity are things I want and desire, so this to me is not a struggle. A struggle implies working against something. If I crave spiritual growth the way I crave chocolate, then it is not a struggle.

I also strive for what I desire. But what I desire is impeccable intent. Unbending intent. And one cannot 'master' this by simply believing another mastered it for him.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Why not? Says who? Can a child not have food and clothing just by trusting their parents to provide them?

Endless indulgence is not a gift I would accept from anyone. I can do that on my own without outside help too.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Why not? Why work for something offered freely? Again, I'm talking about salvation, not spiritual growth, when I say it's offered freely because Jesus did it already. He secured our salvation from sin and eternal death; this was something none of us could ever earn. But once accepted, once "the baby is born", growth is a long process. But unlike the baby, spiritual growth is largely by choice. Yet even in this, I find no struggle; I only learn to relax more and more of my grip on this life. This is the opposite of struggle.

To sit back and 'declare' that you are saved by Jesus, in my view, is no different than declaring you are equal to God. You are, in my view, claiming you received a gift that God gave to everybody to develop and declaring it a gift without potential. You claim it has no potential because 'Jesus' already mastered it.

A true master would never let his apprentices off so easily.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Jesus Himself stated that he came to save us, and that whoever simply trusts in him will be saved. Who are you to call that making us his equal? If you threw me a life preserver and I grabbed on so you could pull me to safety, would I boast that I saved myself?

Again, salvation itself is a "life preserver", but growth after that is a choice. Yet it is not a struggle, because it keeps getting easier and easier to let go of myself and relax. Our growth is not just in understanding, but in spending quality time with the One we have been reconciled with.

God is like a good parent. Good parents shower love and gifts on their children, but not to the point of spoiling them. They let the children make mistakes, take risks, reason things out, and discover on their own. This does NOT make the children earn their place in the family!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/12/2012 04:19 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
What do you think of the seven navy seals getting punished for allegedly giving out 'secrets' to Electronic Arts for a video game?

Sounds like tying up of loose ends to me. Since they supposedly took out Bin Laden, a Chinook helicopter full of navy seals explodes.

Two former navy seals working with the CIA are killed in Benghazi.

And now 7 more are kicked out of the military.

It looks like they are cleaning house on the special forces.

Makes sense if they are planning on dismantling our military and handing the pieces over to the UN/NATO/whoever.

I wonder what if anything similar is happening to the other military branches special forces?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


I think "it's just good business". Yes, the thugs are cleaning house before their guests arrive. When you have higher aspirations than mere President, you bow before the ones controlling those aspirations. And if they tell you to eliminate all dissent, you do it, esp. now that you have "more flexibility" and a free pass from the press.

They're tearing this country apart with both hands, hurrying to meet some esoteric deadline. And I'm sure we have only heard/seen the tip of the iceberg re. dead soldiers and special forces. If anyone loyal to the Constitution still exists in any position of power, they are practically out of time to organize any effective resistance.

People never wake up till it's too late.

On the other hand, I do believe God has a few wrenches to throw into TPTB's bicycle wheels.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


^^^^^
This
Anonymous Coward
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11/12/2012 04:21 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
So.... what happened to Drudge clues?
Jonny Blaze

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11/12/2012 04:45 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
My view of clarity is paradoxical. I believe clarity is one of man's natural enemies which resides within. We suffer from clarity when we believe something with absolute assurance without considering other possibilities.

The only way to counter act clarity is to understand that it is possible to act without believing. To act without expecting rewards or specific outcomes. To act just for the hell of it. There is a certain peace and happiness that comes with acting with the full knowledge that the very act one is performing may be one's last act on this earth. I believe that the suspension of belief is much more engulfing than the suspension of dis-belief. I believe that acting with the suspension of belief provides full access to intent. And intent is what makes one invulnerable.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I often do things just because I enjoy them, not because I get something in the way of rewards. Everybody does that at times. And I don't see why this would even be raised as some kind of conflict with anything I've said.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


On the contrary, the entire philosophy of modern Christianity is hinged on the idea that one only needs to believe that Jesus died for their sins and accept him as their savior. The reward for doing this is 'eternal life in heaven'. The punishment for failing to do this is 'eternal life in hell.' Then one carries on with their life according to their own interpretation of how Jesus would want them to live with no real struggle to become like him.

Why? Because he has already given you the gift of eternal reward. The bulk of his rewards are given at the choice to accept him. After that, the deeds one does for him throughout the remainder of one's life assures only a better place in the hierarchy of heaven. Rewards within rewards.

The fact that you enjoy living your life in accordance with the perceptions you have about this belief system is in my view superfluous.

At its heart, it is a reward vs. punishment system. One act of belief carries with it eternal rewards/punishments.

Whereas, at the heart of my philosophy lies a lifetime of struggle with just a fleeting chance at freedom. There is no hierarchy. There is only a cubic centimeter of chance. It is geared for maximum achievement and efficient realization of spiritual potential.

In my view, I find it humorous that you equate my view of struggling against yourself to find spiritual intent with 'nothing'. I find it even more humorous that you might be dead on balls accurate.

As for your assertion that having the ability to stop one's internal dialogue reduces one to an 'unthinking' animal...well, I will take a moment to apologize to all of the animals you almost offended by your words.

The ability to be offended by the words of another, ironically, is one edge all other of God's creations possess over us 'superior' humans. Indeed, it may be the source of the incredible waste of energy and resources humans constantly squander.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Do you mean inability?

To be sure, there are some animals we find great companionship with. But my point was that, as I think you are saying here, humans are not like the rest of creation. And wastefulness is one of many results of sin entering the world; this explanation is one I find satisfactory for all that is wrong with the world. We are not perfect, but this is no reason to be so disparaging of the human race as you seem to be. Jesus came to offer new life for all who ask, and to clean up the mess of the world when the time is right.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No, I mean the ability. Mankind has developed an endless folly expressed in their complete disregard for the importance of the internal dialogue. What is an ability...talking to ourselves (learned in the years after birth)...has become something most of us have totally forgotten about. It has drained our awareness. It has put the focus of attention on words and the importance of words.

This has created a social structure where words are important, and thus, the ideas communicated through the words of our fellow man have been given the power to pin us down. The ideas and expectations of our fellow man now determine who we are more than our own ideas. As a whole, we have fallen into the pit of conformity. Individualism and individual expression and intent are now threatened with extinction.

It is because of this failure that we lend such importance to the words and ideas of others. When we become offended by them, we lend them a sense of importance that is unwarranted, thus fixating ourselves to their ideas of who we are.

And I have expressed no more disparagement than you have. The world is the world. My personal feelings about the state of it are insignificant.

You could not be more wrong about this. Impeccability is a struggle. Craving yummy chocolate is simply an indulgence. It is giving into the craving that avoids the struggle.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

That's exactly my point: spiritual growth and maturity are things I want and desire, so this to me is not a struggle. A struggle implies working against something. If I crave spiritual growth the way I crave chocolate, then it is not a struggle.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


But, no doubt you also crave to be healthy, attractive, free of diabetes perhaps?

These things would contradict your craving for chocolate. Thus things are much more complicated than you let on. You are struggling within yourself. If you just ate chocolate all day you would find the quality of your life to be deteriorating quickly.

Of course there is struggle against ourselves. We are crooked creatures of contradiction and routine. A warrior's crowning achievement is to straighten out the human form. To work out the kinks and the contradictions.

I also strive for what I desire. But what I desire is impeccable intent. Unbending intent. And one cannot 'master' this by simply believing another mastered it for him.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Why not? Says who? Can a child not have food and clothing just by trusting their parents to provide them?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Oh come now. A parent provides a child clothes. A good parent provides a child with the knowledge to obtain the clothes for himself/herself.

Just as a wise man teaches a hungry man how to fish, rather than just giving him one.

Endless indulgence is not a gift I would accept from anyone. I can do that on my own without outside help too.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Why not? Why work for something offered freely? Again, I'm talking about salvation, not spiritual growth, when I say it's offered freely because Jesus did it already. He secured our salvation from sin and eternal death; this was something none of us could ever earn. But once accepted, once "the baby is born", growth is a long process. But unlike the baby, spiritual growth is largely by choice. Yet even in this, I find no struggle; I only learn to relax more and more of my grip on this life. This is the opposite of struggle.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Ask a person on welfare the same thing.

To sit back and 'declare' that you are saved by Jesus, in my view, is no different than declaring you are equal to God. You are, in my view, claiming you received a gift that God gave to everybody to develop and declaring it a gift without potential. You claim it has no potential because 'Jesus' already mastered it.

A true master would never let his apprentices off so easily.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Jesus Himself stated that he came to save us, and that whoever simply trusts in him will be saved. Who are you to call that making us his equal? If you threw me a life preserver and I grabbed on so you could pull me to safety, would I boast that I saved myself?

Again, salvation itself is a "life preserver", but growth after that is a choice. Yet it is not a struggle, because it keeps getting easier and easier to let go of myself and relax. Our growth is not just in understanding, but in spending quality time with the One we have been reconciled with.

God is like a good parent. Good parents shower love and gifts on their children, but not to the point of spoiling them. They let the children make mistakes, take risks, reason things out, and discover on their own. This does NOT make the children earn their place in the family!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Who are you to claim that we shouldn't struggle against ourselves in order to reach our nearly limitless potential? You basically said that having the ability to act impeccably was in effect a 'declaration' that one is equal to God. As if striving to reach our potential is somehow offensive to God. Yet, when I turn around and say that 'declaring' yourself saved is equally bad, you take great offense.

I see that for you, in my view, words are far too important. In my view, words are almost meaningless when compared to actions.

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 11/12/2012 04:47 PM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/12/2012 05:04 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
So.... what happened to Drudge clues?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19961452


For me, they became irrelevant. Having watched them for quite a while and trying to figure out whether Drudge actually knew anything in advance, it seems that if he was picking weird photos for any other reason than to be weird, they were a wild goose chase. I just kind of lost interest.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/12/2012 05:40 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
On the contrary, the entire philosophy of modern Christianity is hinged on the idea that one only needs to believe that Jesus died for their sins and accept him as their savior. The reward for doing this is 'eternal life in heaven'. The punishment for failing to do this is 'eternal life in hell.' Then one carries on with their life according to their own interpretation of how Jesus would want them to live with no real struggle to become like him.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Gifts and rewards are mutually exclusive; nothing can be both at the same time. A gift is from the goodness of the giver's heart, not the payment of a wage for services rendered. Salvation is a gift; rewards are earned wages.

But to use your earlier phrase, "you couldn't be more wrong" about the alleged license to sin. Paul said point blank, "We died to sin; how can we keep living in it?" To sin occasionally is to be human, but to wallow in sin exposes the fact that the relationship is not there. And certainly it is NOT left up to anyone's imagination! We do have freedom and latitude, but it is from sin, not to sin. How can anyone claim to be a Christian and not care how Jesus wanted them to live? There is only so much that can be left to interpretation in regard to "Love is the fulfillment of the law, because love does no harm to its neighbor".

And again, we are totally miscommunicating on the meaning of "struggle". How can it be a struggle to work for what I desire? How can it be a struggle to relax my grip on my life? These things are the opposite of struggle. Yet at the same time, if I strive for excellence, I am working and thus earning rewards. But this is not a struggle, only an effort.

Why? Because he has already given you the gift of eternal reward. The bulk of his rewards are given at the choice to accept him. After that, the deeds one does for him throughout the remainder of one's life assures only a better place in the hierarchy of heaven. Rewards within rewards.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Eternal life is not eternal reward, as I explained above. We all have great potential to earn them, but not all live up to that potential. Being born is a gift; but growing is work.

The fact that you enjoy living your life in accordance with the perceptions you have about this belief system is in my view superfluous.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

A rather arrogant statement, in my view. My choice of life is superfluous because you don't agree with it philosophically? It may not make sense to you, but it does to me, and I hardly call that superfluous.

At its heart, it is a reward vs. punishment system. One act of belief carries with it eternal rewards/punishments.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You seem to have the idea that God is like Zeus with his thunderbolts, rather than a good parent as I mentioned before.

Whereas, at the heart of my philosophy lies a lifetime of struggle with just a fleeting chance at freedom. There is no hierarchy. There is only a cubic centimeter of chance. It is geared for maximum achievement and efficient realization of spiritual potential.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I wouldn't want "a lifetime of struggle". I'd rather bask in the warmth of God's love and go around spreading that love to others. It also frees me to study whatever I want, as long as I want, with nobody pushing me or waiting to slap me with a ruler if I screw up. I did mention something about this being a reconciliation, remember? Do you really think God is just watching me so he can zap me if I screw up? I understand you may have heard this in church, but that doesn't make it true.


No, I mean the ability. Mankind has developed an endless folly expressed in their complete disregard for the importance of the internal dialogue. What is an ability...talking to ourselves (learned in the years after birth)...has become something most of us have totally forgotten about. It has drained our awareness. It has put the focus of attention on words and the importance of words.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I find this a rather broad brush with which to paint the entire human race. But it's consistent with your apparent disgust for us all.

This has created a social structure where words are important, and thus, the ideas communicated through the words of our fellow man have been given the power to pin us down. The ideas and expectations of our fellow man now determine who we are more than our own ideas. As a whole, we have fallen into the pit of conformity. Individualism and individual expression and intent are now threatened with extinction.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Words are only tools, expressions of thoughts. Are we supposed to read each other's minds? Would that change anything? I think it goes without saying that we all tend to bow to peer pressure, but there have always been exceptions. Jesus used the phrase "narrow way" and I think it fits here as well. But who or what is to blame for what the majority do? You blame an alleged abandonment of "internal dialog" but I see no connection between the two. Some people go with the crowd, and some don't; this is the history of mankind.


But, no doubt you also crave to be healthy, attractive, free of diabetes perhaps?

These things would contradict your craving for chocolate. Thus things are much more complicated than you let on. You are struggling within yourself. If you just ate chocolate all day you would find the quality of your life to be deteriorating quickly.

Of course there is struggle against ourselves. We are crooked creatures of contradiction and routine. A warrior's crowning achievement is to straighten out the human form. To work out the kinks and the contradictions.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Weighing options is what everybody has always had to do, even the most superficial and peer-controlled. But what I was talking about was the desire to grow spiritually. It was a specific illustration for a specific point. THAT particular desire is not a struggle. I can't think of another way to put it. And I think you're over-complicating this specific point, rather than me over-simplifying a point I was never trying to make in the first place.


Oh come now. A parent provides a child clothes. A good parent provides a child with the knowledge to obtain the clothes for himself/herself.

Just as a wise man teaches a hungry man how to fish, rather than just giving him one.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Exactly. That's what I'm saying God does regarding salvation of the soul. Clearly we aren't communicating.


Ask a person on welfare the same thing.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Apples and oranges. SOMEBODY has to pay for welfare BY FORCE. God was never forced to do anything for us; it was purely an act of mercy. Nobody was robbed to give me eternal life.

Are you saying that if a man buys an engagement ring for a woman, that she has to earn it or she takes it-- and him-- for granted? Can't you ever allow a gift to be given?

I can't over-emphasize this point: salvation is a gift; rewards are earned wages.


Who are you to claim that we shouldn't struggle against ourselves in order to reach our nearly limitless potential? You basically said that having the ability to act impeccably was in effect a 'declaration' that one is equal to God. As if striving to reach our potential is somehow offensive to God. Yet, when I turn around and say that 'declaring' yourself saved is equally bad, you take great offense.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I claim what God has told us in the Bible, nothing more. Yes we struggle with sin; nobody denies that. But this is as true of the "babe in Christ" as the long-lived disciple. What makes the difference between the two extremes is that the disciple wants something more than failing to sin; they want to please their Savior by striving and working to become more like Him. Have you not read the parable of the talents? People choose how much or how little reward they want. But they are all saved by grace through faith alone.

I don't know where you got the idea that I said acting impeccably means declaring oneself equal to God; I've said the exact opposite and even gave the illustration to explain further. I don't know how that got twisted so completely backwards.

I also don't know why you think I took "great offense". I really don't.

I see that for you, in my view, words are far too important. In my view, words are almost meaningless when compared to actions.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

What?

Re. words and actions, we all know the saying "actions speak louder than words". Why do you think I would disagree with that? And what "actions" are we supposed to be demonstrating in a conversation in a message board? Words are all we have here, buddy. But I would not say that words are meaningless; why else would anyone ever use them?

sigh

Well, I think this horse is beaten to death now. Anyway, thanks for the workout.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

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11/12/2012 06:31 PM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
On the contrary, the entire philosophy of modern Christianity is hinged on the idea that one only needs to believe that Jesus died for their sins and accept him as their savior. The reward for doing this is 'eternal life in heaven'. The punishment for failing to do this is 'eternal life in hell.' Then one carries on with their life according to their own interpretation of how Jesus would want them to live with no real struggle to become like him.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Gifts and rewards are mutually exclusive; nothing can be both at the same time. A gift is from the goodness of the giver's heart, not the payment of a wage for services rendered. Salvation is a gift; rewards are earned wages.

But to use your earlier phrase, "you couldn't be more wrong" about the alleged license to sin. Paul said point blank, "We died to sin; how can we keep living in it?" To sin occasionally is to be human, but to wallow in sin exposes the fact that the relationship is not there. And certainly it is NOT left up to anyone's imagination! We do have freedom and latitude, but it is from sin, not to sin. How can anyone claim to be a Christian and not care how Jesus wanted them to live? There is only so much that can be left to interpretation in regard to "Love is the fulfillment of the law, because love does no harm to its neighbor".

And again, we are totally miscommunicating on the meaning of "struggle". How can it be a struggle to work for what I desire? How can it be a struggle to relax my grip on my life? These things are the opposite of struggle. Yet at the same time, if I strive for excellence, I am working and thus earning rewards. But this is not a struggle, only an effort.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I see what you are saying. I believe the 'effort' is a struggle.

I'm not so sure about your quote from Paul. Is he saying that the unsaved don't have the same free will? Does an atheist with a moral set of standards not have the same struggle with cravings or desires that a 'saved' Christian has?

For example...lets say another person is a member of a criminal drug cartel. Perhaps he has a tendency to drink. He craves it. Yet he struggles for sobriety, because to be drunken in his line of work will mean he won't be in business for long. Let's say his temptation resides in the drugs he sells. To be high on heroin or cocaine all the time would surely be unwise.

Is 'sin' only something a Christian has claim to be free of?

Why? Because he has already given you the gift of eternal reward. The bulk of his rewards are given at the choice to accept him. After that, the deeds one does for him throughout the remainder of one's life assures only a better place in the hierarchy of heaven. Rewards within rewards.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Eternal life is not eternal reward, as I explained above. We all have great potential to earn them, but not all live up to that potential. Being born is a gift; but growing is work.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Yes. And this is why I am absolutely assured that the work...or struggle doesn't stop until the moment we die.

To propose a guarantee of eternal life afterwards based on a reward or a punishment as a result of accepting a belief is unnecessary.

It can never be proven or dis-proven. All the while death stalks us all. And, indeed, that death is unavoidable is the very reason for the lack of proof and the necessity of 'faith'.

Ironic that you accept the 'faith' derived from death/mortality, yet you neglect the importance of the source of the faith. You see death as merely some transition to eternity...some doorway that faith has rendered unimportant. Death is more than a doorway.

The fact that you enjoy living your life in accordance with the perceptions you have about this belief system is in my view superfluous.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

A rather arrogant statement, in my view. My choice of life is superfluous because you don't agree with it philosophically? It may not make sense to you, but it does to me, and I hardly call that superfluous.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Of course you wouldn't.

At its heart, it is a reward vs. punishment system. One act of belief carries with it eternal rewards/punishments.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You seem to have the idea that God is like Zeus with his thunderbolts, rather than a good parent as I mentioned before.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No, I'm merely discussing the fact that modern Christianity has slain death and replaced it with a Pavlovian response.

Whereas, at the heart of my philosophy lies a lifetime of struggle with just a fleeting chance at freedom. There is no hierarchy. There is only a cubic centimeter of chance. It is geared for maximum achievement and efficient realization of spiritual potential.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I wouldn't want "a lifetime of struggle". I'd rather bask in the warmth of God's love and go around spreading that love to others. It also frees me to study whatever I want, as long as I want, with nobody pushing me or waiting to slap me with a ruler if I screw up. I did mention something about this being a reconciliation, remember? Do you really think God is just watching me so he can zap me if I screw up? I understand you may have heard this in church, but that doesn't make it true.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Well, a lifetime of struggle is what you have, regardless of how you wish to label it. Are you saying you have risen past temptation? Have you annihilated sin?

Or has God simply just removed sin from your life? Did that come along with salvation?

No, I don't think God is watching you and will zap you if you screw up. I think death is stalking us all. I think that our spirit is receding. I think that because of this, we are forced to view the world around us as an endless mystery.

And when death does take someone you love away. I think you will comfort yourself by saying something like 'God works in mysterious ways'.

No, I mean the ability. Mankind has developed an endless folly expressed in their complete disregard for the importance of the internal dialogue. What is an ability...talking to ourselves (learned in the years after birth)...has become something most of us have totally forgotten about. It has drained our awareness. It has put the focus of attention on words and the importance of words.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I find this a rather broad brush with which to paint the entire human race. But it's consistent with your apparent disgust for us all.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Haha. Now the disgust is only mine. The world is suddenly ripe with Christian ideals and Christian prosperity, huh?

Why do you attempt to heave the disgust on me? When we look at the world...you and I...do we see the same things occurring around us?

This has created a social structure where words are important, and thus, the ideas communicated through the words of our fellow man have been given the power to pin us down. The ideas and expectations of our fellow man now determine who we are more than our own ideas. As a whole, we have fallen into the pit of conformity. Individualism and individual expression and intent are now threatened with extinction.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Words are only tools, expressions of thoughts. Are we supposed to read each other's minds? Would that change anything? I think it goes without saying that we all tend to bow to peer pressure, but there have always been exceptions. Jesus used the phrase "narrow way" and I think it fits here as well. But who or what is to blame for what the majority do? You blame an alleged abandonment of "internal dialog" but I see no connection between the two. Some people go with the crowd, and some don't; this is the history of mankind.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Of course not. Now you are just being lazy. I never said that the internal dialog didn't have a legitimate function. It was used as a tool to teach us how to describe ideas to one another. To learn from each other.

A way to communicate. A social construct.

Unfortunately, like I said, it has become bloated and caused our reason to diminish our intent.

Even so, you know that 70% or so of communication when in the physical presence of others is through body language. That should raise a flag.

Ask a person on welfare the same thing.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Apples and oranges. SOMEBODY has to pay for welfare BY FORCE. God was never forced to do anything for us; it was purely an act of mercy. Nobody was robbed to give me eternal life.

Are you saying that if a man buys an engagement ring for a woman, that she has to earn it or she takes it-- and him-- for granted? Can't you ever allow a gift to be given?

I can't over-emphasize this point: salvation is a gift; rewards are earned wages.

 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No, I'm not saying that at all. (about the ring)

Free will is not a gift of bestowal. It is given upon birth to be developed during life. The proper development of it leads to what you would call 'salvation', or what I would call 'freedom'.

Salvation is also not a gift of bestowal. It is given upon death to those who through ceaseless struggle have earned the right to freedom by developing their impeccable intent.


Who are you to claim that we shouldn't struggle against ourselves in order to reach our nearly limitless potential? You basically said that having the ability to act impeccably was in effect a 'declaration' that one is equal to God. As if striving to reach our potential is somehow offensive to God. Yet, when I turn around and say that 'declaring' yourself saved is equally bad, you take great offense.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I claim what God has told us in the Bible, nothing more. Yes we struggle with sin; nobody denies that. But this is as true of the "babe in Christ" as the long-lived disciple. What makes the difference between the two extremes is that the disciple wants something more than failing to sin; they want to please their Savior by striving and working to become more like Him. Have you not read the parable of the talents? People choose how much or how little reward they want. But they are all saved by grace through faith alone.

I don't know where you got the idea that I said acting impeccably means declaring oneself equal to God; I've said the exact opposite and even gave the illustration to explain further. I don't know how that got twisted so completely backwards.

I also don't know why you think I took "great offense". I really don't.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Well, I got the idea from you. You said something to the effect of if one declares himself to be impeccable, one is declaring themselves to be equal to God. I presumed that since acting is more important than talking, if one acts with impeccability, the declaration would be much more profound then just saying it.

And I am happy to hear that you weren't offended. ;)


I see that for you, in my view, words are far too important. In my view, words are almost meaningless when compared to actions.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

What?

Re. words and actions, we all know the saying "actions speak louder than words". Why do you think I would disagree with that? And what "actions" are we supposed to be demonstrating in a conversation in a message board? Words are all we have here, buddy. But I would not say that words are meaningless; why else would anyone ever use them?

sigh

Well, I think this horse is beaten to death now. Anyway, thanks for the workout.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


One would use them to convey ideas. One would say they are just an attempt to effectively communicate an idea.

What we are doing here is typing into a keyboard. The act of typing is similar to talking. But the construction of the ideas by the formulation of our words is much more focused. Thus, our words have more 'weight' here.

Still, they are almost useless.

And you are most certainly welcome. I had a good time. ;)

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 11/12/2012 06:55 PM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/12/2012 07:12 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I see what you are saying. I believe the 'effort' is a struggle.

I'm not so sure about your quote from Paul. Is he saying that the unsaved don't have the same free will? Does an atheist with a moral set of standards not have the same struggle with cravings or desires that a 'saved' Christian has?

For example...lets say another person is a member of a criminal drug cartel. Perhaps he has a tendency to drink. He craves it. Yet he struggles for sobriety, because to be drunken in his line of work will mean he won't be in business for long. Let's say his temptation resides in the drugs he sells. To be high on heroin or cocaine all the time would surely be unwise.

Is 'sin' only something a Christian has claim to be free of?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Paul is speaking to Christians, and teaching through answering a series of hypothetical questions, which he typically prefaces with "Someone will say...". In this case, he is raising the question, "If God's grace was made more evident by our sin, then let's sin a whole bunch more so God's grace will look even better!" To which Paul replied, "Dimwits! How can we who have died to sin keep living in it?" That is, the question leads to an absurdity.

"Death" in that context is figuratively referring to a change of relationship. Paul had talked about the lost being in a kingdom personified by Sin, and when saved, entering the kingdom personified by Righteousness. To "die" to Sin was to leave that kingdom and live in Righteousness. So what Paul is saying is that we should behave as citizens of a new kingdom with new laws. The letter to the Romans is a very long and technical theological argument.

Re. cravings, I've been trying to convey the concept of spiritual growth as something greatly desired, a good thing that requires no discipline or struggle to achieve. Alcohol is a craving for something harmful. I really have run out of ways to say this.


Yes. And this is why I am absolutely assured that the work...or struggle doesn't stop until the moment we die.

To propose a guarantee of eternal life afterwards based on a reward or a punishment as a result of accepting a belief is unnecessary.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Again, this is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that the guarantee of eternal life is a GIFT that one accepts by faith alone. It cannot be earned. It cannot be striven for. It is a change of citizenship that happens in a moment of time, like being born as opposed to growing. This is NOT a reward because it is NOT an earned wage. And again, I'm just talking about salvation itself here, not spiritual growth. I don't know how else to say this.

It can never be proven or dis-proven. All the while death stalks us all. And, indeed, that death is unavoidable is the very reason for the lack of proof and the necessity of 'faith'.

Ironic that you accept the 'faith' derived from death/mortality, yet you neglect the importance of the source of the faith. You see death as merely some transition to eternity...some doorway that faith has rendered unimportant. Death is more than a doorway.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Who denies death? I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I just disagree that we can only be sure about death and not what lies beyond. I already agreed that nothing can be proved with 100% assurance, and already pointed out that you can be no more sure of what lies beyond than I am. Yet you too are very confident of what you believe the beyond is about.

Also, how or where have I neglected "the importance of the source of the faith"? The source of my faith is absolutely critical; one must believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So the source of my faith is this fact of history, as I've said all along. This is something as verifiable as anything else. How is any of this "seeing death as merely a doorway"? It is a change of state in the most extreme. But I give up trying to explain this.


No, I'm merely discussing the fact that modern Christianity has slain death and replaced it with a Pavlovian response.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

What? Seriously, what? But at this point I don't need you to answer, I just want you to know this claim makes no sense.


Well, a lifetime of struggle is what you have, regardless of how you wish to label it. Are you saying you have risen past temptation? Have you annihilated sin?

Or has God simply just removed sin from your life? Did that come along with salvation?

No, I don't think God is watching you and will zap you if you screw up. I think death is stalking us all. I think that our spirit is receding. I think that because of this, we are forced to view the world around us as an endless mystery.

And when death does take someone you love away. I think you will comfort yourself by saying something like 'God works in mysterious ways'.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

No. I do NOT struggle to be saved! How else can I word this? How many ways can I draw a line between salvation and spiritual growth? Why do you keep conflating the two? (Again, no need to respond, just expressing the impasse.) Your last sentence there... what? I've lost quite a few loved ones to physical death, and never said such a ridiculous thing. I said I'll be happy to see them again someday.


Haha. Now the disgust is only mine. The world is suddenly ripe with Christian ideals and Christian prosperity, huh?

Why do you attempt to heave the disgust on me? When we look at the world...you and I...do we see the same things occurring around us?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Did I even hint at any such ridiculous argument as to say that the world is all rainbows and lollipops? Or did I only observe your blanket condemnation of all human beings without distinction? It's just what comes across in how you describe people; I didn't put that on you.


Of course not. Now you are just being lazy. I never said that the internal dialog didn't have a legitimate function. It was used as a tool to teach us how to describe ideas to one another. To learn from each other.

A way to communicate. A social construct.

Unfortunately, like I said, it has become bloated and caused our reason to diminish our intent.

Even so, you know that 70% or so of communication when in the physical presence of others is through body language. That should raise a flag.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

How am I being lazy now? I just took the words you used and responded to them. And then you turn right around and talk about how "bloated" communication has become. I don't get it, and I'm tired of playing this semantics game.


No, I'm not saying that at all. (about the ring)

Free will is a gift of bestowal. It is given upon birth to be developed during life. The proper development of it leads to salvation.

Salvation is also a gift of bestowal. But, I believe, it is given upon death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Salvation is given by asking. Free will is already ours when we're born. We cannot save ourselves by the exercise of our free will.


Well, I got the idea from you. You said something to the effect of if one declares himself to be impeccable, one is declaring themselves to be equal to God. I presumed that since acting is more important than talking, if one acts with impeccability, the declaration would be much more profound then just saying it.

And I am happy to hear that you weren't offended. ;)
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

This is stemming from the confusion between salvation and spiritual growth, I think. We cannot ever be impeccable to the point of not needing faith in Jesus to save us. We can strive toward spiritual maturity however, but not the perfection of Jesus.

ADDED: You had said that I was equating myself with God at some point. What I said was that you can't save yourself.


And you are most certainly welcome. I had a good time. ;)
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


Glad to hear it.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/12/2012 07:18 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

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11/13/2012 08:18 AM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I see what you are saying. I believe the 'effort' is a struggle.

I'm not so sure about your quote from Paul. Is he saying that the unsaved don't have the same free will? Does an atheist with a moral set of standards not have the same struggle with cravings or desires that a 'saved' Christian has?

For example...lets say another person is a member of a criminal drug cartel. Perhaps he has a tendency to drink. He craves it. Yet he struggles for sobriety, because to be drunken in his line of work will mean he won't be in business for long. Let's say his temptation resides in the drugs he sells. To be high on heroin or cocaine all the time would surely be unwise.

Is 'sin' only something a Christian has claim to be free of?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Paul is speaking to Christians, and teaching through answering a series of hypothetical questions, which he typically prefaces with "Someone will say...". In this case, he is raising the question, "If God's grace was made more evident by our sin, then let's sin a whole bunch more so God's grace will look even better!" To which Paul replied, "Dimwits! How can we who have died to sin keep living in it?" That is, the question leads to an absurdity.

"Death" in that context is figuratively referring to a change of relationship. Paul had talked about the lost being in a kingdom personified by Sin, and when saved, entering the kingdom personified by Righteousness. To "die" to Sin was to leave that kingdom and live in Righteousness. So what Paul is saying is that we should behave as citizens of a new kingdom with new laws. The letter to the Romans is a very long and technical theological argument.

Re. cravings, I've been trying to convey the concept of spiritual growth as something greatly desired, a good thing that requires no discipline or struggle to achieve. Alcohol is a craving for something harmful. I really have run out of ways to say this.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Total BS. Look at what Paul said. He is saying that he believes that being born into sin has caused death to be unavoidable for us. So why would we keep sinning? He was trying to say, IMO, that to give into sin was to give in to death.

When I say BS...I mean your assertion that spiritual growth requires no discipline or struggle. It is unrealistic. It is simply not believable and runs contrary to every basic observation that one can make in this world.

Even something greatly desired often takes struggle to achieve. You think because you have a gallon of ice cream in your freezer it is effortless to get it? You don't need to go to work to get the money to have the freezer? The house? The Ice cream? The spoon? The comfy couch?

And who is to decide what is harmful? Is that decision not also a struggle? If the decision about what is or isn't harmful isn't a struggle, then shouldn't their be universal agreement regarding the classification of the harmfulness of all things?

If you eat enough chocolate, is that not also harmful? How much chocolate can you eat until you cross the threshold into harmfulness? Is there universal agreement on this?

This oversimplification as to the 'desire' that 'requires no discipline or struggle' that 'Jesus' gives you 'freely' is a fantasy.

Yes. And this is why I am absolutely assured that the work...or struggle doesn't stop until the moment we die.

To propose a guarantee of eternal life afterwards based on a reward or a punishment as a result of accepting a belief is unnecessary.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Again, this is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that the guarantee of eternal life is a GIFT that one accepts by faith alone. It cannot be earned. It cannot be striven for. It is a change of citizenship that happens in a moment of time, like being born as opposed to growing. This is NOT a reward because it is NOT an earned wage. And again, I'm just talking about salvation itself here, not spiritual growth. I don't know how else to say this.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Yes. I understand. You are completely wrong. Nothing in this world is a gift. Whatever has to be learned, has to be learned the hard way.

This is exactly why I left the Christian faith. This is exactly why the Christian faith is being degraded and eroded around the world, and rightly so. The idea that you just need to believe in Jesus and you are gifted citizenship to eternal life is pure folly.

It makes a mockery out of life and has made a mockery out of those who follow it.

It can never be proven or dis-proven. All the while death stalks us all. And, indeed, that death is unavoidable is the very reason for the lack of proof and the necessity of 'faith'.

Ironic that you accept the 'faith' derived from death/mortality, yet you neglect the importance of the source of the faith. You see death as merely some transition to eternity...some doorway that faith has rendered unimportant. Death is more than a doorway.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Who denies death? I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I just disagree that we can only be sure about death and not what lies beyond. I already agreed that nothing can be proved with 100% assurance, and already pointed out that you can be no more sure of what lies beyond than I am. Yet you too are very confident of what you believe the beyond is about.

Also, how or where have I neglected "the importance of the source of the faith"? The source of my faith is absolutely critical; one must believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So the source of my faith is this fact of history, as I've said all along. This is something as verifiable as anything else. How is any of this "seeing death as merely a doorway"? It is a change of state in the most extreme. But I give up trying to explain this.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The source of my faith is death itself. It is provable, verifiable, and unavoidable.

I am absolutely assured that there is no guarantee that anything lies beyond. I believe we have only a chance to obtain 'freedom' by retaining our awareness after death.

I have said this before. It is you, my friend, who have the clarity here. It is you who are too confident. Not only are you too confident about the afterlife, you are convinced that everything you have here and now is a gift. And you believe that everything you will strive for in the future will be done without struggle and discipline...at the end of which, despite the fact that you may sin just as much as a moral atheist, 'Jesus' will grant you eternal happiness and joy.

No, I'm merely discussing the fact that modern Christianity has slain death and replaced it with a Pavlovian response.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

What? Seriously, what? But at this point I don't need you to answer, I just want you to know this claim makes no sense.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Sure it does. You have replaced the weight of death with the weight of a strawman. The strawman being Jesus.

Well, a lifetime of struggle is what you have, regardless of how you wish to label it. Are you saying you have risen past temptation? Have you annihilated sin?

Or has God simply just removed sin from your life? Did that come along with salvation?

No, I don't think God is watching you and will zap you if you screw up. I think death is stalking us all. I think that our spirit is receding. I think that because of this, we are forced to view the world around us as an endless mystery.

And when death does take someone you love away. I think you will comfort yourself by saying something like 'God works in mysterious ways'.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

No. I do NOT struggle to be saved! How else can I word this? How many ways can I draw a line between salvation and spiritual growth? Why do you keep conflating the two? (Again, no need to respond, just expressing the impasse.) Your last sentence there... what? I've lost quite a few loved ones to physical death, and never said such a ridiculous thing. I said I'll be happy to see them again someday.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I understand what you are saying. You are saying that your eternal life is guaranteed. You don't need to struggle to obtain it. Jesus already gave it to you. Salvation is what is important. Spiritual growth is just icing on the cake.

I get it.


Haha. Now the disgust is only mine. The world is suddenly ripe with Christian ideals and Christian prosperity, huh?

Why do you attempt to heave the disgust on me? When we look at the world...you and I...do we see the same things occurring around us?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Did I even hint at any such ridiculous argument as to say that the world is all rainbows and lollipops? Or did I only observe your blanket condemnation of all human beings without distinction? It's just what comes across in how you describe people; I didn't put that on you.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Of course you didn't, because it can't be put on me. The world is the world, regardless of how I feel about it.

I can only control my own actions. My discontent with the world can only be expressed in my effort to strengthen my own intent.


Of course not. Now you are just being lazy. I never said that the internal dialog didn't have a legitimate function. It was used as a tool to teach us how to describe ideas to one another. To learn from each other.

A way to communicate. A social construct.

Unfortunately, like I said, it has become bloated and caused our reason to diminish our intent.

Even so, you know that 70% or so of communication when in the physical presence of others is through body language. That should raise a flag.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

How am I being lazy now? I just took the words you used and responded to them. And then you turn right around and talk about how "bloated" communication has become. I don't get it, and I'm tired of playing this semantics game.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Verbal communication is a semantics game by its very nature.


No, I'm not saying that at all. (about the ring)

Free will is a gift of bestowal. It is given upon birth to be developed during life. The proper development of it leads to salvation.

Salvation is also a gift of bestowal. But, I believe, it is given upon death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Salvation is given by asking. Free will is already ours when we're born. We cannot save ourselves by the exercise of our free will.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


This earlier response is one I changed shortly after I posted it.

Salvation, in your view, may be a bestowal. But I don't believe freedom to be.

And I don't believe Free Will is a gift of bestowal either.

I believe free will and 'freedom' are related to each other in the same way that perception and awareness are related.


Well, I got the idea from you. You said something to the effect of if one declares himself to be impeccable, one is declaring themselves to be equal to God. I presumed that since acting is more important than talking, if one acts with impeccability, the declaration would be much more profound then just saying it.

And I am happy to hear that you weren't offended. ;)
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

This is stemming from the confusion between salvation and spiritual growth, I think. We cannot ever be impeccable to the point of not needing faith in Jesus to save us. We can strive toward spiritual maturity however, but not the perfection of Jesus.

ADDED: You had said that I was equating myself with God at some point. What I said was that you can't save yourself.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


And let me clarify this. I believe that it is possible Jesus did exist. It is possible that he was the 'son of man'. IF these things are true, he would want his followers to strive for perfection. To strive to overcome 'sin'.

He wouldn't accept anything less than a full blown 24 hour a day relentless siege against the weaknesses within ourselves.

And most certainly, he would never look down upon those who strove as hard as they could to achieve this perfection.

Instead, he would open his arms to them and call them 'brother'.
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/13/2012 08:59 AM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Total BS. Look at what Paul said. He is saying that he believes that being born into sin has caused death to be unavoidable for us. So why would we keep sinning? He was trying to say, IMO, that to give into sin was to give in to death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Now you're oversimplifying, and have I ever said that because you disagree with me, it's BS? What's with the hostility now? I thought we were done anyway and had left the issue amicably. And in case you think I know nothing about Paul or Romans or reading comprehension: [link to bible.fether.net]

When I say BS...I mean your assertion that spiritual growth requires no discipline or struggle. It is unrealistic. It is simply not believable and runs contrary to every basic observation that one can make in this world.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

So according to you, I should not believe "my lyin' eyes", my own experience and that of many others I know.

Even something greatly desired often takes struggle to achieve. You think because you have a gallon of ice cream in your freezer it is effortless to get it? You don't need to go to work to get the money to have the freezer? The house? The Ice cream? The spoon? The comfy couch?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You keep using that word "struggle". You just don't get what I'm saying, and I've given up trying to get it across.


Yes. I understand. You are completely wrong. Nothing in this world is a gift. Whatever has to be learned, has to be learned the hard way.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

"You are completely wrong"????? What happened to "I disagree"? What happened to "clarity" and "duality" being bad things in your opinion?

This is exactly why I left the Christian faith. This is exactly why the Christian faith is being degraded and eroded around the world, and rightly so. The idea that you just need to believe in Jesus and you are gifted citizenship to eternal life is pure folly.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

If you can't and won't believe there are such things as gifts, I cannot help you. If you despise mercy, God cannot help you. If you call the wisdom and power of God folly, you have pronounced your own judgment, and it is YOU who makes a mockery out of life.

One last thing:
I have said this before. It is you, my friend, who have the clarity here. It is you who are too confident.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

This is absolutely laughable after all you've just said. You are only fooling yourself. And when I want to know what Jesus "would have" said, I go straight to the Source. Not to proud, self-important humans.

ADDED: I'd close this thread if I could. All I will ask now is that you leave me in peace.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/13/2012 09:02 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/13/2012 09:24 AM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Back to Drudge headlines today:

No clues here, just the bald truth: Our country is screwed because we really do have a bunch of clowns running it.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

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11/13/2012 09:30 AM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Total BS. Look at what Paul said. He is saying that he believes that being born into sin has caused death to be unavoidable for us. So why would we keep sinning? He was trying to say, IMO, that to give into sin was to give in to death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Now you're oversimplifying, and have I ever said that because you disagree with me, it's BS? What's with the hostility now? I thought we were done anyway and had left the issue amicably. And in case you think I know nothing about Paul or Romans or reading comprehension: [link to bible.fether.net]
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No, but you are certainly free to. I didn't say that you are BS, or you are full of BS. It's just your opinion I disagree with.

I don't think either of us know nothing. At the same time, I don't think either of us have it all figured out.

Thus the conversation we are both participating in.

When I say BS...I mean your assertion that spiritual growth requires no discipline or struggle. It is unrealistic. It is simply not believable and runs contrary to every basic observation that one can make in this world.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

So according to you, I should not believe "my lyin' eyes", my own experience and that of many others I know.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No, on the contrary. I believe that you should believe whatever you want to believe. I will do the same.

To each their own.

Even something greatly desired often takes struggle to achieve. You think because you have a gallon of ice cream in your freezer it is effortless to get it? You don't need to go to work to get the money to have the freezer? The house? The Ice cream? The spoon? The comfy couch?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You keep using that word "struggle". You just don't get what I'm saying, and I've given up trying to get it across.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I keep using it because you apparently believe that once you accept Christ, you no longer have the desire or temptation to 'sin'. As if there is no longer any conflict left inside you.

Yet, you admit that there is conflict...because you admit we are not perfect. You go one step further, in fact, and claim that we cannot ever achieve perfection.

You seem to be saying that salvation has 'saved' you from the struggle against 'sin'. This must be devastating to your spiritual growth.

Yes. I understand. You are completely wrong. Nothing in this world is a gift. Whatever has to be learned, has to be learned the hard way.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

"You are completely wrong"????? What happened to "I disagree"? What happened to "clarity" and "duality" being bad things in your opinion?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I completely disagree with you. I believe you are completely wrong.

The only thing that is clear and certain is that we are going to die. Your insistence that 'salvation' is given during a certain point in certain people's lives is free from duality and wrought with clarity.

My position that nothing is guaranteed except that death is unavoidable puts clarity in its proper place.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'duality' in this circumstance.

This is exactly why I left the Christian faith. This is exactly why the Christian faith is being degraded and eroded around the world, and rightly so. The idea that you just need to believe in Jesus and you are gifted citizenship to eternal life is pure folly.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

If you can't and won't believe there are such things as gifts, I cannot help you. If you despise mercy, God cannot help you. If you call the wisdom and power of God folly, you have pronounced your own judgment, and it is YOU who makes a mockery out of life.

One last thing:
I have said this before. It is you, my friend, who have the clarity here. It is you who are too confident.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

This is absolutely laughable after all you've just said. You are only fooling yourself. And when I want to know what Jesus "would have" said, I go straight to the Source. Not to proud, self-important humans.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Hah! I despise mercy? What...because you say so? I call the wisdom and power of God folly...what...because you say so?

By your own words you have called 'free will' fragile. You have said this 'gift' is less powerful than evil spirits. You have said that only God can protect you from these spirits...who you claim can break the will God gave you. You have said that there is no struggle necessary against the very imperfections within us that you say cannot be overcome. You are the defeatist here. You are the one who clings to mercy, because for you mercy is necessary.

I have nothing to fear from God. I know the path I walk. I will not apologize and seek pardon for the struggle I undertake to make myself a better person with a stronger link to my spiritual intent.

I may disagree with you, but I can't judge you. I do not have the power to do that, and I do not seek to have that power. Likewise, the reverse is also true. We may try to convince each other, but God gave each of us free will to make up our own minds.

You may laugh now, as may I. But when death comes for me, I will joyously shout to the heavens and laugh at death itself as I wage my last battle on this earth.
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Jonny Blaze

User ID: 22472711
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11/13/2012 09:31 AM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
Back to Drudge headlines today:

No clues here, just the bald truth: Our country is screwed because we really do have a bunch of clowns running it.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm 100% down with that statement. ;)

It will be interesting to see if Allen gets cleaned out too.

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 11/13/2012 09:31 AM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/13/2012 09:38 AM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I keep using it because you apparently believe that once you accept Christ, you no longer have the desire or temptation to 'sin'. As if there is no longer any conflict left inside you.

Yet, you admit that there is conflict...because you admit we are not perfect. You go one step further, in fact, and claim that we cannot ever achieve perfection.

You seem to be saying that salvation has 'saved' you from the struggle against 'sin'. This must be devastating to your spiritual growth.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


This, and the rest of your passive-aggressive comment, show that I have wasted my time, which is why I asked you to leave me in peace.

I have repeatedly explained that SALVATION is not the same as SPIRITUAL GROWTH, that the former is a gift without effort and the latter is what I desire and thus not something I struggle against. You NEVER understood this, because you kept trying to confuse the two, and because you ignored my DESIRE to grow.

And for the record, I never said I don't struggle with sin! Such outrageous twists and fabrications are why this cannot continue, and I will not respond to further attempts to keep it going.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Jonny Blaze

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11/13/2012 09:54 AM

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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I keep using it because you apparently believe that once you accept Christ, you no longer have the desire or temptation to 'sin'. As if there is no longer any conflict left inside you.

Yet, you admit that there is conflict...because you admit we are not perfect. You go one step further, in fact, and claim that we cannot ever achieve perfection.

You seem to be saying that salvation has 'saved' you from the struggle against 'sin'. This must be devastating to your spiritual growth.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze


This, and the rest of your passive-aggressive comment, show that I have wasted my time, which is why I asked you to leave me in peace.

I have repeatedly explained that SALVATION is not the same as SPIRITUAL GROWTH, that the former is a gift without effort and the latter is what I desire and thus not something I struggle against. You NEVER understood this, because you kept trying to confuse the two, and because you ignored my DESIRE to grow.

And for the record, I never said I don't struggle with sin! Such outrageous twists and fabrications are why this cannot continue, and I will not respond to further attempts to keep it going.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Hmmm. So you are a woman.
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
Unit3

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United States
11/14/2012 05:46 PM
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Re: Drudgery: Watching for Clues
I don't believe the will can be broken. The mind can be broken. The body can be broken. But the will, I believe, is a function that cannot be separated from awareness. It can be surrendered, but never broken.

When I say impeccability, I mean the ability to be flawless or act without sin. When one is acting in perfect correlation with the spirit, one is acting with impeccability. It is an exercise of free will, in my opinion. It is like an indulgence, only it is an indulgence in the will of the spirit instead of an indulgence in the will of the flesh.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

I do believe the will can be broken. I've often described the teachings of extreme patriarchy in "Christianity" to be the act of hollowing out a woman, of removing that which makes her human, by drilling into her the idea that her will is her own worst enemy. There are many websites documenting this reality. Some women escape; some don't. This is not simply an issue of the mind but of a person's very essence and self-identity.

As for impeccability, there are people whose spirits are so evil that they can do terrible things while "acting in perfect correlation with the spirit". The Bible calls it having a conscience "seared as with a hot iron". So there must be an external, perfect Spirit by which we compare our own, or the definition of good and evil becomes merely a lack of conscience or conflict. In other words, your view presumes a wholesome and altruistic will/spirit, and I dispute this premise.


Actually it is the other way around. When we act as if we know everything, the world becomes mundane. It is more exciting to not know. It keeps us on our toes.

If nothing is guaranteed, then the 'gamble' is to take advantage of the moment as it presents itself to you. A person with a good heart, a person who seeks self control rather than control over others, lives life most efficiently in this way. Knowing that nothing is for sure, one must treat every act as if it might be their last.

The motivating force might seem like death, because of the emphasis that one places on it. However, since death is something that resides outside of the touch of life, life becomes the emphasis. It is simply a trick.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

You presume once again that everyone draws the same conclusions, that they hold the same axioms we do. I reject this premise as well.

There are many cases of people who are perfectly content and fulfilled when they cause maximum suffering. I just finished watching a fascinating 3-hr. video on the Rothschilds and related despots, who are the richest of the rich but never satisfied, and show no conscience at all in gaining wealth through war, poverty, and theft. It is the lack of accountability that drives them and satisfies them.

Anyone who believes that death is inconsequential is kidding themselves. If you get in a car wreck, you know. If you get cancer, you know. If someone holds a gun to your head, you know.

Other than these few precious moments when we admit the truth, most people forget and pretend that the driving force in their lives has nothing to do with their personal struggle against death.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

When I ask who is ignoring it, it was in response to what I perceived as your question to me; sorry for any misunderstanding.

Still, most people seem to at least hold to a concept of life after death wherein they will be held to account, and this has an effect upon how they live. The gamblers are the atheists and possibly some agnostics, who either are foolishly confident that there will be no accounting, or who foolishly gamble that there probably won't be, or that if there is, they will come out all right.


How is the idea that most of us will just wink out of existence when we die more depressing than the idea that most of us will go to hell when we die?

Is an eternity of suffering less depressing than simply no longer existing?
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

An eternal end to existence means this life is utterly devoid of meaning, and that people I love will never be seen again. That is a thought I find very depressing. It means that my life and the lives of others, their triumphs and tragedies, are no more significant than the waves of the sea.

But if this is not the end, then there is meaning to life, and the hope of never again being separated from loved ones.

I agree that IF a person rejects God, it would be better to just disappear. Yet this is not a fate but a personal choice, and a deliberate one. If people choose to be separated from God for eternity, so be it. If they find that choice acceptable, their wills will not be violated. Otherwise God would be a mere puppet master. That is, to fail to allow the choice of eternal separation is to violate free will, and only a free will can give genuine love.

So whether an eternity of suffering is depressing depends solely upon the individual.


Interesting tangent here. So then you must concede that the world is full of things that happen every day that are not in accordance with God's will.

Indeed, most actions of men are in defiance of God's will. If one were to follow that line of thought, then 'God's plan' is full of events that happen against his will. One might conclude that God has no control over the future.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Concede? On the contrary, I freely and deliberately affirm it. Free will would not exist without the allowance of wills antagonistic to the will of God.

But it is a non-sequitur to conclude that this means God cannot control the future. Remember the playground illustration? The children do not decide where the playground is, how big it is, what toys or apparatus it contains, or when they can be there.

This gets into what is known as "middle knowledge" and "possible worlds". I liken it to a game of chess: with each move, the set of remaining possible moves changes. Yet an expert player can almost always win, not by cheating but by being able to see farther ahead than the opponent. God of course is the perfect chess master, and not even Satan can win against Him.

So God can indeed control and predict the future without causing it or violating free will. He is God, and we're not.


Because I have seen death up close before.
 Quoting: Jonny Blaze

Yet others will tell you they were clinically dead but never had a NDE. You are convinced, but you cannot know it as an indisputable proof. Similarly, I am convinced, but cannot prove empirically, that Jesus rose from the dead, and that the Bible accurately conveys the will of God and the history of mankind. This experience of yours is a personal conviction, an axiom, a given, upon which you base other logical conclusions. But it is not something you can know outside of yourself.

I wish I could remember the website of this guy who made an excellent and detailed argument when discussing evolution, which proved (to my satisfaction anyway) that no system can prove itself within itself. That is, to explain the universe means getting beyond it, which is impossible.

Likewise, our epistemology is entirely self-contained. Our experiences and thoughts are things we cannot get outside of entirely, because we always use our preconceived epistemology to reason and observe. Therefore we must have an external entity, God if you will, to settle all disputes and make perfect judgments upon how people lived. This is what I mean when I say I do not trust myself entirely; not that I have no confidence, but that I know my limits.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode





Marking so I know where to come back to. I'm enjoying the conversation. Thanks.

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