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For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

 
Greatest I am
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11/04/2012 03:39 PM

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For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

[link to www.youtube.com]

If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

===============================================

There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

Regards
DL
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2012 03:50 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
You are speaking from a place of not understanding

God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

You will get there...to the understanding
but today is not that day
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2012 04:03 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
The creature does not tell the Creator what is ridiculous or immoral.
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2012 04:03 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Gods and religious text are made by men trying to put meaning to their existence by observing their world and making assumptions of things they don't really understand. The people back in history didn't have the knowledge and understanding of the world that we do today.

Not only that, religion gives power over people. Men place themselves in positions of religious authority to command others since "God(s) speak to them" or "It is God's will". Millions have died and suffered in the name of some God.


I am not saying that all followers of a particular religion are evil people. Nor do I not disbelieve the possibility of some Creator(s).
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2012 04:06 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Nah eh if someone figures something out like clean water it will be told where they don't have that ?
Aman
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11/04/2012 04:10 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
what if god HAD to condemn you because of his justice but decided to save you instead?

yeah, I guess that would explain it.
Judethz
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11/04/2012 04:38 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
The creature does not tell the Creator what is ridiculous or immoral.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27003095


kitty Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/04/2012 08:24 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
You are speaking from a place of not understanding

God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

You will get there...to the understanding
but today is not that day
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13068821


Seems your reading and comprehension is what is lacking understanding. I said nothing of the son condemning anything.

If I am foolish, are you saying that it is wise to embrace human sacrifice and the notion that it is good justice to punish the innocent instead of the guilty?

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/04/2012 08:26 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
The creature does not tell the Creator what is ridiculous or immoral.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27003095


I am not telling God anything.

I am asking you if you believe in human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/04/2012 08:30 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Gods and religious text are made by men trying to put meaning to their existence by observing their world and making assumptions of things they don't really understand. The people back in history didn't have the knowledge and understanding of the world that we do today.

Not only that, religion gives power over people. Men place themselves in positions of religious authority to command others since "God(s) speak to them" or "It is God's will". Millions have died and suffered in the name of some God.


I am not saying that all followers of a particular religion are evil people. Nor do I not disbelieve the possibility of some Creator(s).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5739241


I agree with your view of religions.

Does your idea of a creator include it being ok if it is absentee and is fair in sending you to hell for nonbelief?

If he were real and as you imagine that is.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/04/2012 08:34 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
what if god HAD to condemn you because of his justice but decided to save you instead?

yeah, I guess that would explain it.
 Quoting: Aman 18120924


It would but who would be forcing God to have to do anything? Satan perhaps?

And even if he was forced, he was not forced to accept a human sacrifice. He could have slid us all into heaven with that quote in the O P.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/04/2012 08:36 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
The creature does not tell the Creator what is ridiculous or immoral.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27003095


kitty Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 Quoting: Judethz


Why does God hate the pot that he formed with a hole in it?

Does clay think? No. Perhaps that is why it does not ask.

Can you think?
Or just thump stupidly?

Regards
DL
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2012 09:07 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Are you intentionally missing the point?


If there is a God. And he created he you.
So that you even has the capacity to discern things.

How can you discern against him?

He would simply not have created you.

How can God create something more moral than himself?
God Loves ALL

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11/04/2012 09:09 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Christianity has the strangest and completely impossible beliefs. God condemns no one, people condemn themselves.
The actual Lord's Prayer Given by Jesus 2000 years ago.

"MY SPIRIT, YOU ARE OMNIPOTENT. YOUR NAME IS HOLY. MAY YOUR REALM BE INCARNATE IN ME. MAY YOUR POWER REVEAL ITSELF WITHIN ME, ON EARTH AND IN THE HEAVEN. GIVE ME TODAY MY DAILY BREAD, AND THUS, LET ME RECOGNIZE MY TRANSGRESSIONS AND ERRORS, AND I SHALL RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH. AND DO NOT LEAD ME INTO TEMPTATION AND CONFUSION, BUT DELIVER ME FROM ERROR. FOR YOURS IS THE REALM WITHIN ME AND THE POWER AND THE KNOWLEDGE FOREVER,
AMEN.

Nice video: [link to www.youtube.com] Make this World a Better One

Thread: Walter Russell Quotes Walter Russell thread
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2012 09:09 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Look at all the religious around you. Cant you see the truth?

Pray for wisdom and understanding.

Most people on the face of the planet have always been on darkness.
God Loves ALL

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11/04/2012 09:11 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
You are speaking from a place of not understanding

God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

You will get there...to the understanding
but today is not that day
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13068821


and you are full of false "beliefs". God has jillions of sons. ONE of them came here to TEACH. You are saved by your own power of the Father Within YOU and that is how its has always been since the beginning of the creation and on 5.6 trillion worlds with intelligent life on them.

This is a particularly dead beat planet for many reasons, and extra sons of God have been sent to teach, and handle all sorts of stuff. Buddha and all the rest were Sons of God and there are many many of us on the planet now and in the past 2000 years trying to lift up this dark world. And we go unappreciated for it, it is so dark here.

Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 11/04/2012 09:17 PM
The actual Lord's Prayer Given by Jesus 2000 years ago.

"MY SPIRIT, YOU ARE OMNIPOTENT. YOUR NAME IS HOLY. MAY YOUR REALM BE INCARNATE IN ME. MAY YOUR POWER REVEAL ITSELF WITHIN ME, ON EARTH AND IN THE HEAVEN. GIVE ME TODAY MY DAILY BREAD, AND THUS, LET ME RECOGNIZE MY TRANSGRESSIONS AND ERRORS, AND I SHALL RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH. AND DO NOT LEAD ME INTO TEMPTATION AND CONFUSION, BUT DELIVER ME FROM ERROR. FOR YOURS IS THE REALM WITHIN ME AND THE POWER AND THE KNOWLEDGE FOREVER,
AMEN.

Nice video: [link to www.youtube.com] Make this World a Better One

Thread: Walter Russell Quotes Walter Russell thread
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 11:12 AM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Are you intentionally missing the point?


If there is a God. And he created he you.
So that you even has the capacity to discern things.

How can you discern against him?

He would simply not have created you.

How can God create something more moral than himself?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27003095


Because he is manmade and the ancients were not moral.

You are judging God yourself and yet do not seem to like my judging him.

Why do you hold that double standard?


I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.

[link to blog.ted.com]

He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through the Flavians and later through Constantine.

[link to www.simchajtv.com]

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 11:15 AM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Christianity has the strangest and completely impossible beliefs. God condemns no one, people condemn themselves.
 Quoting: God Loves ALL


If we condemn ourselves then we can also forgive ourselves. Right?

All we need do is recognize that we cannot help but do evil and that that is the way God planned it.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

Regards
DL
------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

----------------------------

Theistic evolution.
[link to www.youtube.com]
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 11:17 AM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
Look at all the religious around you. Cant you see the truth?

Pray for wisdom and understanding.

Most people on the face of the planet have always been on darkness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27003095


What truth is that?

You have given absolutely nothing to look at.

Regards
DL
Anonymous Coward
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11/06/2012 11:19 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
God has many shortcomings including being an egomaniac
Anonymous Coward
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11/06/2012 11:20 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
look at it this way,if i give you a gift and you destroy it,do you deserve that gift,and who is to blame for its destruction?

i think we are to carefully examine this gift
Anonymous Coward
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11/06/2012 11:21 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
God has many shortcomings including being an egomaniac
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7061022


wow you sir have won the most meekness award...

claiming to understand the creator of your being is not humble at all
Anonymous Coward
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11/06/2012 11:22 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
OP is so confused on the truth of the bible I don't even care to shed light on all his points.

Enjoy everything that's coming to you.
Mi'Kmaq

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11/06/2012 11:24 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
I think GOD has another plan that you people just don't see!
GOD is'nt going to judge you,you will judge yourself,if you find yourself in a pit of fire it will be on you,no one else,YOU and only you can deniegh youself,you have no power to deniegh anyone but yourself. I have posted this because I can not deniegh you anything,because to do so would to deniegh myself.peace
Zephyr2

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11/06/2012 11:29 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

[link to www.youtube.com]

If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

===============================================

There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

Regards
DL
 Quoting: Greatest I am


You have a very good point. That is because the god you described is created by mankind to control others. That god is petty, mean, judgemental, and cruel...just like many in power today.

The god that I love is found in nature, not a church. That god always loves and never condems. That god laughs at the bible.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
~Calvin & Hobbs~
Anonymous Coward
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11/06/2012 11:35 AM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
let's just love our maker instead of scrutinizing his every whimsy

imagine if he put our lives under magnification and revealed some disturbing stuff oh you without sin casting stones.

thank you god for the mysterious characteristics of your multi faceted personality that the simple and imprudent are quick to condemn knowing you not for to them the gospel is foolishness.

i will never completely understand all this stuff about how god made evil to show us faith and unneccesary suffering to show us love, about sin and reconciliation through the mastership of a manifested love story called youniverse, about powerlessness and true power as the source for every enlightened path that tenderly seeks the presence our ancestors clung to, however i do recognize a god without limits no matter how tempting it is to put youn in a box of constraints via my programmed expectations lingering beneath my underdeveloped and very narrow perspective as an unfocused and unrepentent little worm beholding your infinteness like an ant the grand canyon, like an amoeba a star.

my god is waaayyyy to big for this three pound cerebral goo to grasp in a conceptual form, to compartamentalize and reconstruct according to my seared conscience.

instead i will let god be god and mankind be mankind and hope to adjust the great gap between all knowing and barely knowing by a steadfast seeking and that with fidelity impeccable.
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 01:15 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
look at it this way,if i give you a gift and you destroy it,do you deserve that gift,and who is to blame for its destruction?

i think we are to carefully examine this gift
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27120224


If you give me a gift that you know I will destroy, and if that gift is a human life like Jesus was, then you are guilty of murder.

Right?

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 01:17 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
God has many shortcomings including being an egomaniac
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7061022


wow you sir have won the most meekness award...

claiming to understand the creator of your being is not humble at all
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27120224


Yet you claim to understand the creator as being good and just do not like your opinion questioned.

Kettle and pot.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 01:19 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
OP is so confused on the truth of the bible I don't even care to shed light on all his points.

Enjoy everything that's coming to you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18526910


Did Jesus not say to minister to the sick and not those who are well?

You have no argument against and that is why you just throw a stone and run away.

I do not mind. You help me make my point to lurkers.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am (OP)

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11/06/2012 01:22 PM

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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
I think GOD has another plan that you people just don't see!
GOD is'nt going to judge you,you will judge yourself,if you find yourself in a pit of fire it will be on you,no one else,YOU and only you can deniegh youself,you have no power to deniegh anyone but yourself. I have posted this because I can not deniegh you anything,because to do so would to deniegh myself.peace
 Quoting: Mi'Kmaq


If we judge and condenm ourselves then we can also forgive ourselves. Therefore the Universalists are right and there is no hell.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

----------------------------

Theistic evolution.
[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 27120224
Croatia
11/06/2012 01:23 PM
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Re: For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.
OP is so confused on the truth of the bible I don't even care to shed light on all his points.

Enjoy everything that's coming to you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18526910


Did Jesus not say to minister to the sick and not those who are well?

You have no argument against and that is why you just throw a stone and run away.

I do not mind. You help me make my point to lurkers.

Regards
DL
 Quoting: Greatest I am


amen to that

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