The Holocaust is the greatest conspiracy of the 20th Century......Nazi Death Marches.

They tried to hide all those 6 million dead Jews by making their corpses march away from the camps at the end of the war?



No wonder nobody could ever find any mass graves.

Very clever, those Nazis.

Bump to see if there is any interest in this topic.

Obviously, you want someone here of superior intellect (like moi) to analyze this for you. Otherwise, you would have just posted the "findings of your research."

Not falling for it.

Taking the easy way out seems pretty common when one is afraid of what they may uncover.
It is far easier to remain content in the mainstream.

I will however give you and everyone else a hint at the truth.

[link to s1302.beta.photobucket.com]

Here is a copy of a telegram sent to the US State Department via the US Consul in Bern Switzerland. When read it becomes clear that:

U.S. and German top-level government officials talked with each other about the condition of inmates in German-operated camps.

In 1944 German officials denied any intention to mass-murder inmates,

Germany guaranteed to evacuate inmates ahead of Soviet advance.

So let's dig a little deeper...

According to the telegram, the claims that Germany was mass murdering prisoner's came through the Polish Government in Exile in London. The question then becomes, who would have told them that?

On the other hand, how do we know the German's were telling the truth?
Because here Thread: Auschwitz revisted and how Roosevelt almost lost the war in the first week. I explain about the rubber shortage created by FDR and the need for aerial surveillance of the camps at Auschwitz. Clearly surveillance would have detected any attempts to mass murder inmates.

Last Edited by Templar Knight on 11/08/2012 09:46 AM

Thanks for these threads OP. I don't believe all of the "facts" about the holocaust that we are presented with either. I don't think we will ever know the truth about what happened. I think the best we can hope for is to be able to discuss it rationally...keep up the good work!

Thanks AC.
I think people misunderstand why I research this particular topic and I also believe that Revisionism has done a great disservice to the study of history.

Too many people use the Nazi era to embolden their hatred of Jews. Skinheads, Neo-Nazi's and the far Right Wing fundamentalists all go around boasting of the greatness of Hitler.

Hitler was not a great man, although I find him to be very intelligent and had a unique ability to control the masses. He also had an unquestioned love of Germany. But great....nah.

I study this simply because I want to discover the real truth of the events surrounding the Holocaust and to a lesser degree the war in general.

I realize it's like casting pearls before swine in many cases but I put information out here in hope of creating discussion and have others research the topics so we can arrive at a mutually agreed upon conclusion.

Sadly, these threads turn into shouting matches and back and forth bickering most of the time.

But that's okay, on rare occasions something good comes of it.

Last Edited by Templar Knight on 11/08/2012 10:05 AM

please share your findings

Americans can't understand european nationalism. They are so far removed from any tribal feeling, they might live on another planet.

I will soon, but I would like to spark a little conversation on the topic first. Here is another little bit of the puzzle.

Here is a second telegram which is a response from the War Refugee Board of the US State department back to the Consul in Bern, Switzerland.

Below it is the text if anyone has difficulty reading it.
[link to s1302.beta.photobucket.com]


From: STETTINIUS acting for Department of State and War Refugee Board, Washington, D.C.
Dated: January 22, 1945, 10 p.m.
For: HUDDLE and McCLELLAND, Bern, Switzerland
Rec'd: January 22

Reference Department's 192 of January 13, Irish Department of External Affairs, confirms that it inquired of German authorities concerning the rumor that Germans intended to liquidate the inmates at camps Oswiecim, Hoss, and Birkenau, and that the Germans replied that the rumor that it is their intention to exterminate the Jews in these camps is pure invention devoid of all foundation and that if the camps were to be abandoned their inmates would be evacuated.

Please request Swiss Political Department to inform German Government that the above reply of German authorities to Ireland has been noted by the Government of the United States, and that this Government accordingly expects that Jewish and other survivors of these and other concentration, detention, and labor camps in Germany and German-controlled territory will be kept alive by German authorities.

In view of the nearness of Oswiecim and Birkenau to the front, it is urgent that the above communication reach German authorities with the greatest possible speed.

STETTINIUS

WRB: 1/22/45

............
Thoughts or comments welcome.

Vn base beneath brussel ?

Thanks for the info OP.



The truth will be outed.

Another piece of the puzzle is a man named Jan Karski.
Would someone care to research him and post about his role in this drama?

I hear lies every fucking day.

I know it is very difficult to speak and discuss about this Topic,
let me tell you that you look just for the Extremes
but forget that all the single Points accumulate!

Yes, there was "Death Marches" and Yes, there was "Camp-Evacuations",
Germany thought they need all this Work Force
because all the German Soldiers (Males) was already death or in PoW-Camps!

But so many People was weak already after all this Torture
and when they started it was Winter-Time,
there was no Food and not even hot Water.
Many People had only simple Clothes and many not even had Shoes.

It was the final Point for many People!

You are missing the entire point about the marches.
They were not meant to kill the prisoners or use them as a work force in another camp....they were meant to save them
Germany gave their word that they would evacuate the prisoners ahead of the approaching Red Army....Why?

Because the communist prisoners knew that to be turned over to the Red Army meant death and if they were Russian Army POW's meant death for their families as well. Earlier on in the war, particularly at the onset of Barbarossa, Red Army troops surrendered by the tens of thousands overwhelming the Nazi camp system. some of the reasons for this surrender was because Stalin purged the Army leadership during the thirties, and the troops no longer trusted him.
In addition, due to the mass murder of millions of his own people, the common man no longer trusted him either since no family was fully spared from the loss of loved ones.

As a result of these mass surrenders, Stalin enacted Stavka Orders which are essentially the same as Executive Orders given by Obama today.

Stalin's orders were to put a stop to what he considered cowardice among his army. Basically, any troop who surrendered or was captured was considered a traitor and the penalty was death. When that was not sufficient he enacted another that carried the penalty to the families.

No one wanted to return to the Soviet Union because certain death awaited them.

Read here. [link to en.wikipedia.org]
Quote:
The shtrafbats were created by Joseph Stalin on July 1942, via Stavka Order No. 227

Order No. 227 was a desperate effort to re-instill discipline after the panicked routs of the first year of combat with Germany. The order—popularized as the "Not one step back!" This Order introduced severe punishments, including summary execution, for unauthorized retreats.

Regarding the evacuation of the camps...the prisoners were given a choice to leave with the Germans or remain at the camp awaiting the Red Army.
Reread the telegrams I posted and you will see the Germans were true to their word.

The Germans told the prisoners that those who were in the infirmaries will be abandoned to the Russians and that only the healthy prisoners will be required to leave Auschwitz. However, a rumor spread among the prisoners that the Germans were really going to kill all of the patients before they left.

In his book "Night" Elie Wiesel tells us that he could have stayed in the hospital and that he also could have managed to have his father admitted to the hospital and then waited for the Russians. He tells us that he persuaded his father to allow themselves to be evacuated with the healthy prisoners.

He wrote the following regarding his decision to join the Germans on the march out of Auschwitz:

The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him (his father) entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. "Well, what shall we do, father?" He was silent. "Let's be evacuated with the others," I told him.
The rumors turned out to be false. The Germans did leave the patients behind unharmed in the camp infirmaries.

The Wiesels joined the exodus of prisoners marching in the snow. The prisoners had been allowed to pile on extra layers of clothing before they left by the Germans.

Among those who stayed were Primo Levi author of Survival in Auschwitz and Otto Frank, father of Anne Frank.

In all there were about 6000 prisoners left behind.

Here is a first hand account of an interview with a survivor named John Mandel. Mr. Mandel participated in the death march. You can read the text of his interview or listen directly to the audio.
[link to holocaust.umd.umich.edu]

Here in extensive detail is an article from the Holocaust Research Project regarding the marches. [link to www.holocaustresearchproject.org]

Comments welcome

Last Edited by Templar Knight on 11/08/2012 06:48 PM

@ Op.,
you are looking only for a single Kz
but not for the hundreds of unnamed Places!

The whole of the occupied eastern Europe
was full of Kz,
there was not only Birkenau, Treblinka, etc.!

The Holocaust didn't happen.

/thread

It's funny you refer to your own link re the aerial surveillance. Let's see some quotes from you on that subject.


1)
There are literally tens of thousands of aerial photographs of the Auschwitz Camps in US and British Archives. Globalsecurity .org has about 50 or so at this location.
[link to www.globalsecurity.org]

2)
From Dino Brugioni, CIA Photo Analyst and author.

By modern standards, the photo interpretation equipment used in World War II can only be classified as primitive. Photo interpreters used stereoscopes with lenses capable of magnification four times the original imagery (about like that of a magnifying glass). In addition, tube magnifiers with a seven-time magnification capability were also used in scanning the aerial photos. Photo interpreters performed the interpretation from contact paper prints rather than film duplicates. We know today that the negatives from which some of the Auschwitz contract prints were made in World War II could have been enlarged up to 35 times.

3)
[/b]For some time it was a common misconception that no British Prisoners Of War were imprisoned in Auschwitz. It was largely understood that the vast majority of prisoners at Auschwitz-Birkenau were innocent Jews with the remainder consisting of political prisoners, gypsies etc. While this is largely true, Arthur Dodd was in fact one of a number of British soldiers actually incarcerated there.

So the bottom line is this.

Auschwitz has been photographed thousands of times from at least late 1941 to the end of the war and probably beyond because the US needed the intelligence associated with the Buna process, and Britain (in my opinion) due to the POW situation.
The camps were practically side by side and located in a populated area. Photo analysts had the capability to enlarge images 35 times and were able to visualize the finest details in a photo.
Not one image has ever shown the alleged atrocities that were supposed to have been a daily occurrence.
No mass burning pits, no pillars of fire from chimneys, no prisoner’s being led to gas chambers, and no mass graves.

If a picture tells a thousand words, how many words do thousands of pictures tell?


---------------------------------------------------------

Now, the whole text under number 2 is directly copied from the same website you mention under point one, just a different page:
[link to www.globalsecurity.org]

See point 5. Photo Interpretation Equipment

Now it's funny how you manage just to copy that little part from the statements of Dino Brugioni, CIA Photo Analyst and author. But how about all the rest of Dino Brugioni's words?
I urge everybody here to carefully read the page on the linked website above, that a Historian uses as proof against the claim Auschwitz was used as a mass murder site.

A Historian very conveniently forgets to mention:


In retrospect, it is a fact that by the time the Soviet Army reached Auschwitz on January 27, 1945, the Allies had photographed the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex at least 30 times.


30 times according to the CIA millitary intelligence expert. Where are the rest of the litteraly tens of thousends of aerial pictures?


During World War II, photo interpreters operated under an elaborate tasking and priority system to produce intelligence from aerial photography. Searching for or doing detailed analysis on concentration camps was not a specific task. Photographs were searched to find any indication of enemy build-up or military movements.

Photo interpreters were also tasked to perform detailed analysis on a variety of significant tactical and strategic targets. Concentration and extermination camps were not considered significant targets. A target folder was created for each significant target and was described at the time as being the interpreters' most important aid. The target folder contained the target. The target chart for the Auschwitz area was centered on the I.G. Farben Bunald Synthetic Fuel and Rubber Plant and did not include either the Auschwitz I or Birkenau camps. The specific detailed interpretation tasking was to report on the progress of the construction of the plant. Later, an added requirement was to report on the extent and effect of Allied bombing. A review of all the photo interpretation reports created on the Farben plant reveals the interpreters' principal concern was the bomb damage and production stoppages at the synthetic fuel plant. There is not a single reference to either the Auschwitz or Birkenau camps, which were covered on the same photographic runs. The Monowice camp, next to the Farben Plant, was correctly identified as a concentration camp.


As this proves, the photo interpreters were ordered to look for troops, for millitary targets, and the damage done to them. Not to study POW camps or concentration camps.



2.. Priority Projects.
The principal units performing interpretation of the photographs taken over Germany and German-occupied territories were the Allied Central Interpretation Unit at the Royal Air Force Station Medmenham in England and the Mediterranean Allied Photo Reconnaissance Wing in Italy. These organizations worked on a 24-hour-a-day basis and in 1943 and 1944 were heavily involved in the planning of the Normandy and Southern France landings. Support to the Normandy landings alone required an estimated half-million photo interpretation man-hours. The stepped-up Allied bombing offensive of German strategic industries in 1944, which included synthetic fuel plants, also involved extensive photographic analysis and assessments. Other high priority projects included the searching for and destruction of V-1 and V-2 rocket sites, jet aircraft plants, and submarine production facilities. Photo interpreters were also employed in the planning and execution of special bombing missions against critical targets. The volume of materials being received for photo interpretation must also be considered. The daily intake for the Allied Central Interpretation Unit averaged 25,000 negatives and 60,000 prints. By V-E Day, over five million prints were in storage. More than 40,000 reports had been prepared from these prints.



This proves the Allies simply didn't have the time, nor enough interpretors, to study anything else then millitary targets. The sheer number of photo's needing to be analysed was just too much.


that during World War II information from human sources and communication intelligence was not available to most interpreters. Photo interpreters, for the most part, worked in a vacuum while interpreting and reported only what they saw on the photography. My research also confirms that the information about Auschwitz provided by two escapees, Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler, was never made available to those interpreting the I.G. Farben Plant photos. It is my professional opinion that had such information been provided to the photo interpreters, they would have quickly located the gas chambers and crematoriums.



Now A Historian, would you like to explain why you just copied that litte bit of info of the page that was usefull for your statement, but not mention all the rest that discredits your theory?

For a so called historian, that is pretty poor practise imo.

The Holocaust is just as fake as the Jewish bible.

___________________________________________________



Take a breath big guy.
Where you are rushing to judgement is assuming that Brugione had access to all the available images.
Then, you take his number of 30 and assume that it means 30 photos or images. I have Brugione's book and if you did as well you would know that every participant in the war had very large departments of experts dedicated to interpreting photos and also forging them to throw off the enemy. Brugione speaks of them extensively and even gives examples of forgeries.

that being said I'll offer this for your consideration...

I assume you have heard of Yad Vashem?

[link to www1.yadvashem.org]

Here is an excerpt from the text of the article at the link...read it and see if you wish to change your position.

Emphasis mine

Aerial photographs of Auschwitz taken by the Allied Air Forces during World War II were first exposed in 1978 by Dino Brugioni and Robert Poirer, two aerial photo- analysts who worked for the CIA.

Using historical research material, they re-analyzed aerial photographs housed in the Defense Intelligence Agency Archives in Washington. Yad Vashem was able to acquire copies of some of these photographs in 1980 with Elie Wiesel’s help, and when former US president Carter visited Israel in that same year, he brought copies of the original film reels.

The Allied Air Forces came to the Auschwitz area because of the important war industry located in this region of Upper Silesia (Polish territory which was annexed to the Third Reich in 1939). In early 1944, there were intelligence reports of a giant fuel and artificial rubber factory in Monowitz. On April 4th, 1944, a Mosquito plane from 60 Photo Recon Squadron of the South African Air Force flew out of Foggia base in Southern Italy to photograph the factory. It was the IG Farben factory at Monowitz, only 4km from Birkenau. In order to ensure complete coverage of the target, it was common practice to start the camera rolling ahead of time, and stop it slightly over time. As a result, the Auschwitz camp was photographed for the first time. During that same period, the Allies had commenced planning a comprehensive attack on the German fuel industry, and the Monowitz factory was high up on the list of targets.

Rea the rest of the article at the link: [link to www1.yadvashem.org]
_________________________________________________

Do you still want to hold on to that 30 image fantasy?
If you want to learn a little about the camera's used for these aerial recon missions do a search for the "Fairchild K-20" aerial camera. That was the most often used camera at the time (hint: it used a 200' long roll of film.)

Here is something for your consideration..

Let's assume for a moment that you are right about there being 30 images of the Auschwitz and Birkenau camps. In fact, the images on the Global Security Website would serve well for this experiment.

Take a few minutes and look at the images there.

Do you see anything missing?

I will give you a hint... Remember the tales of the chimneys constantly belching thick smoke and flame like in this image [link to s1302.beta.photobucket.com] from David Olère in his book
The Eyes of a Witness, Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York 1989, p. 51

Last Edited by Templar Knight on 11/11/2012 05:59 AM

[link to www.the_holocaust_happened]

What a fucking joke.

Yeah, unless you'll be able to show links to the other 10's of thousends of pictures you claim are taken, I'll stick to the number of approx 30.

Funny, because both links you have attached as proof, are in line with THAT number, and not the number you claim.

Again, Dino Brugioni clearly states the following:

In retrospect, it is a fact that by the time the Soviet Army reached Auschwitz on January 27, 1945, the Allies had photographed the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex at least 30 times.



He doesn't state he had access of 30 photo's of Auschwitz, no, he clearly states that all in all the allies had photographed Auschwitz at leat 30 times by the time the Russians reached it.

Then look at your second link.

On April 4th, 1944, a Mosquito plane from 60 Photo Recon Squadron of the South African Air Force flew out of Foggia base in Southern Italy to photograph the factory. It was the IG Farben factory at Monowitz, only 4km from Birkenau. In order to ensure complete coverage of the target, it was common practice to start the camera rolling ahead of time, and stop it slightly over time. As a result, the Auschwitz camp was photographed for the first time

It clearly states that on April 4th, 1944, Auschwitz was photographed for THE FIRST TIME. You claim it has been photographed from late 1941.

Your link goes on giving preciesly 9 dates on which Allied airplanes took pictures from Auschwitz, the last one being January 14th, 1945.

So, the links YOU give to prove your theory of tens of thousands of pictures taken from the end of 1941, actually show the first picture was taken in April 1944, and give evidence of only 9 flights taking pictures, and approx 30 pictures being available.

Now, let's have a look at the photo's on the Auschwitz album link. Look at this picture.

[link to www1.yadvashem.org]

In the top right of the pic, you can see smoke.

Now you have to take 2 things in account. In general the planes were flying at about 27.000 ft!! The chimney's at Auschwitz were approximately 8 meters tall. A chimney that size will produce enough smoke clearly visible for people on the ground / in the camp, but not enough smoke to be clearly visible from 27.000 ft.

Well this is stupid to argue about cremations since we know for fact that prisoners were dying daily from disease, and their bodies had to be burnt.

That does not automatically point to war crimes being committed.

Exactly and btw... Assuming that the calculated capacity of the known crematoriums in that camp holds water, one should actually be excepting that all chimneys would be blowing smoke non-stop 24-7, just in order to keep up with what would be the death rate of a given town holding a population the size of the amount prisoners... in peacetime....
Problem is though, that the mainstream will then just claim that this is the reason for the need of the aledged mass graves...

But then, why the focus on smoke and chimneys in the first place and not the mass graves? Not enough of a horror factor in mass graves alone?

The fact that nobody could ever actually find any "mass graves" might have something to do with it.

[link to www.dailymail.co.uk]

I suggest reading this whole article before you make such claims.