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Sybils and Oracles...

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2012 12:25 PM
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Sybils and Oracles...
Does anyone have any information at all about these subjects? such as who is the oldest ever recorded Sybil?

I did find this...but I know there has to be other information out there...

The most fascinating of all Sibyls lived in Cumae (now called Cuma), the first Greek colony founded in Italy, located about twenty miles West of Naples in "the volcanic region near Vesuvius, where the whole country is cleft with chasms from which sulphurous flames arise, while the ground is shaken with pent-up vapors, and mysterious sounds issue from the bowels of the earth." 4 The Sibyl who was also known as Amalthaea made her home in a grotto in this tempestuous land -- a grotto that can be visited even today -- and there she would write her prognostications on leaves and spread them at one of the hundred mouths to her cave, allowing them to be picked up and read -- or scattered by the winds to be seen no more, whichever came first, as Virgil tells us in his Aeneid:

Arriv'd at Cumae, when you view the flood
Of black Avernus, and the sounding wood,
The mad prophetic Sibyl you shall find,
Dark in a cave, and on a rock reclin'd.
She sings the fates, and, in her frantic fits,
The notes and names, inscrib'd, to leafs commits.
What she commits to leafs, in order laid,
Before the cavern's entrance are display'd:
Unmov'd they lie; but, if a blast of wind
Without, or vapors issue from behind,
The leafs are borne aloft in liquid air,
And she resumes no more her museful care,
Nor gathers from the rocks her scatter'd verse,
Nor sets in order what the winds disperse.
Thus, many not succeeding, most upbraid
The madness of the visionary maid,
And with loud curses leave the mystic shade.


In the Aeneid, too, she gives Aeneas a tour of the infernal regions which are entered into in the land she inhabited (this story is the reason for Dante's having chosen Virgil as his guide in "The Divine Comedy"). After this tour of the underworld, they ascend again, and the Sibyl tells the story of how she came to be hundreds of years old. From chapter 25 of Bullfinch's book:

As Aeneas and the Sibyl pursued their way back to earth, he said to her, "Whether thou be a goddess or a mortal beloved by the gods, by me thou shalt always be held in reverence. When I reach the upper air, I will cause a temple to be built to thy honor, and will myself bring offerings."

"I am no goddess," said the Sibyl; "I have no claim to sacrifice or offering. I am mortal; yet if I could have accepted the love of Apollo, I might have been immortal. He promised me the fulfilment of my wish, if I would consent to be his. I took a handful of sand, and holding it forth, said, 'Grant me to see as many birthdays as there are sand-grains in my hand.'

"Unluckily I forgot to ask for enduring youth. This also he would have granted, could I have accepted his love, but offended at my refusal, he allowed me to grow old. My youth and youthful strength fled long ago. I have lived seven hundred years, and to equal the number of the sand-grains, I have still to see three hundred springs and three hundred harvests. My body shrinks up as years increase, and in time, I shall be lost to sight, but my voice will remain, and future ages will respect my sayings."
An ancient woman doomed to live a thousand years, but without youth, shrinking with age each year until nothing is left of her but her voice -- a voice which some say is kept in a jar in the cave, and that others say one can still hear there in her Cumaean grotto.

[link to www.fisheaters.com]


hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 12:26 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Come on...I am serious...I am deleting that reply :P

hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 12:31 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Do you belive the gases underneath the caves was the reasons the Sybils could go into such trances...if that is the case how did they predict so many things correctly?

hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 12:32 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Also were there any sybils that were recorded in Egypt?

Any and all info is appreciated :)

hf
1908247

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11/08/2012 12:39 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
I never read too much about it until I saw something about it on the book "The martyr of Golgotha".. It really interested me and I even mentioned one of those prophecies on my thread.. we live on times were prophecies are fulfilled each couple of days.. tounge

This book is really nice btw, I'll get it again, search about the sybil part and come back to you (:
I believe the one mentioned was in Egypt
- ? Nus.

-You Hold Witness I Witness

As if he could, by himself, say:
_Alive, therefore life itself.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 12:42 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
I never read too much about it until I saw something about it on the book "The martyr of Golgotha".. It really interested me and I even mentioned one of those prophecies on my thread.. we live on times were prophecies are fulfilled each couple of days.. tounge

This book is really nice btw, I'll get it again, search about the sybil part and come back to you (:
I believe the one mentioned was in Egypt
 Quoting: 1908247


Thank you very much for looking into that :) Can't wait to hear what you find...

hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 12:45 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
The author of The Song of the Sibyl is unknown. The prophecy was first recorded as an acrostic poem in Greek by bishop Eusebius of Caesarea and later translated into Latin by Saint Augustine in The City of God. It appeared again in the 10th century in different locations across Catalonia, Italy, Castile, and France in the sermon Contra judeos, later inserted into the reading of the sixth lesson of the second nocturn of matins and was performed as an integral part of the liturgy.

This chant was originally sung in Latin and under the name of Judicii Signum, but from the 13th on, versions in Catalan are found.

These early Catalan versions of the Judici Signum were not directly translated from Latin. Instead, they all come from a previous adaptation in Provençal, which proves the huge popularity this song must have had in the past.





English Translation



Al jorn del judici parrà qui avrà fet servici.

On the day of judgment, he will be spared who has done service.


Jesucrist, Rei universal, home i ver Déu eternal, del cel vindrà per a jutjar i a cada u lo just darà.

Jesus Christ, King of the Universe, man and true eternal God, from Heaven will come to judge and to everyone what is fair will give.


Gran foc del cel davallarà; mars, fonts i rius, tot cremarà. Daran los peixos horribles crits perdent los seus naturals delits.

Great fire from the heaven will come down; seas, fountains and rivers, all will burn. Fish will scream loud and in horror. Losing their natural delights.


Ans del Judici l'Anticrist vindrà i a tot lo món turment darà, i se farà com Déu servir,
i qui no el crega farà morir.

Before the Judgement the Antichrist will come and will give suffering to everyone,
and will make himself be served like God, and who does not obey he will make die.



Lo seu regnat serà molt breu; en aquell temps sots poder seu moriran màrtirs tots a un lloc
aquells dos sants, Elies i Enoc.

His reign will be very short; in these times under his power will die martyrs, all at once
those two saints, Elijah and Enoch.


Lo sol perdrà sa claredat mostrant-se fosc i entelat, la lluna no darà claror i tot lo món serà tristor.

The sun will lose its lightness showing itself dark and veiled, the moon will give no light and the whole world will be sorrow.


Als mals dirà molt agrament: —Anau, maleits, en el turment! anau-vos-ne en el foc etern amb vòstron príncep de l'infern!

To the evil ones he will say very sourly: -Go, damned, into the torment! go inside the eternal fire with your prince of Hell!


Als bons dirà: —Fills meus, veniu! benaventurats posseïu el regne que us he aparellat des que lo món va esser creat!

To the good ones he will say: -My sons, come! lucky ones, you possess the kingdom I have entailed for you since the world was created!


Oh humil Verge! Vós qui heu parit Jesús Infant aquesta nit, a vòstron Fill vullau pregar que de l'infern vulla'ns lliurar!

Oh humble Virgin! May you who have given birth to Child Jesus in this night, to your son want to pray so he will want to keep us from Hell!

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

hf
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2012 12:49 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Body As Battleground: Feminine Prophecy and
Identity in the Ancient Mediterranean


[link to digitalcommons.macalester.edu]

Angels this is an interesting paper I read which talks about ancient prophecy and the differences between the masculine and feminine and how they're depicted in history...found it interesting...

flower
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11/08/2012 12:54 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Body As Battleground: Feminine Prophecy and
Identity in the Ancient Mediterranean


[link to digitalcommons.macalester.edu]

Angels this is an interesting paper I read which talks about ancient prophecy and the differences between the masculine and feminine and how they're depicted in history...found it interesting...

flower
 Quoting: ArunaLuna


Oh Aruna I was hoping you would stop by :) This thread has me thinking about your thread the field of human interaction...ya know how people can tap into such states so easily :)

Thank you for the link on the paper...sounds interesting and of course that does tie into this subject on Sybils :) I will start to read it now...

hf
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Body As Battleground: Feminine Prophecy and
Identity in the Ancient Mediterranean


[link to digitalcommons.macalester.edu]

Angels this is an interesting paper I read which talks about ancient prophecy and the differences between the masculine and feminine and how they're depicted in history...found it interesting...

flower
 Quoting: ArunaLuna


Already I found some good stuff Luna! lol

From this notion arises the idea of being inhabited by a deity. The Greeks termed
this state of bodily inspiration enthousiasmos,” literally “in-godness,”
the inhabitation of a god. The usage of this term implies the physical presence of a
god , which takes place “insideThe “inside” in this case is the body of
the prophetess. Prophecy is a physical experience. It happens upon and within the body.
Both divine and human identities are contained within the prophetess’ body—and
because they both inhabit the same space, the prophetess’ body becomes a contested
space, a battleground. The battle waged is not just for control of the body, or even the
life of the prophetess—it is for her very identity, and its right to exist unencumbered in
her body.

hf
wf
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11/08/2012 01:07 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Body As Battleground: Feminine Prophecy and
Identity in the Ancient Mediterranean


[link to digitalcommons.macalester.edu]

Angels this is an interesting paper I read which talks about ancient prophecy and the differences between the masculine and feminine and how they're depicted in history...found it interesting...

flower
 Quoting: ArunaLuna


Already I found some good stuff Luna! lol

From this notion arises the idea of being inhabited by a deity. The Greeks termed
this state of bodily inspiration enthousiasmos,” literally “in-godness,”
the inhabitation of a god. The usage of this term implies the physical presence of a
god , which takes place “insideThe “inside” in this case is the body of
the prophetess. Prophecy is a physical experience. It happens upon and within the body.
Both divine and human identities are contained within the prophetess’ body—and
because they both inhabit the same space, the prophetess’ body becomes a contested
space, a battleground. The battle waged is not just for control of the body, or even the
life of the prophetess—it is for her very identity, and its right to exist unencumbered in
her body.

hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


bookmark...

hi
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 01:13 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Hey WF...that link Aruna provided is awesome...it's a long read but still so much info...

I was looking for the oldest recorded oracles or sybils. Could it have started here? I am so confused chuckle

Dodona (Doric Greek: Ionic and Attic Greek: in Epirus in northwestern Greece, was an oracle devoted to a Mother Goddess identified at other sites with Rhea or Gaia, but here called Dione, who was joined and partly supplanted in historical times by the Greek god Zeus.

The shrine of Dodona was regarded as the oldest Hellenic oracle, possibly dating to the second millennium BCE according to Herodotus. Situated in a remote region away from the main Greek poleis, it was considered second only to the oracle of Delphi in prestige. Priestesses and priests in the sacred grove interpreted the rustling of the oak (or beech) leaves to determine the correct actions to be taken. Aristotle considered the region around Dodona to have been part of Hellas and the region where the Hellenes originated.[2] The oracle was first under the control of the Thesprotians before it passed into the hands of the Molossians.[3] It remained an important religious sanctuary until the rise of Christianity during the Late Roman era.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

hf
Anonymous Coward
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11/08/2012 01:17 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Hey WF...that link Aruna provided is awesome...it's a long read but still so much info...

I was looking for the oldest recorded oracles or sybils. Could it have started here? I am so confused chuckle

Dodona (Doric Greek: Ionic and Attic Greek: in Epirus in northwestern Greece, was an oracle devoted to a Mother Goddess identified at other sites with Rhea or Gaia, but here called Dione, who was joined and partly supplanted in historical times by the Greek god Zeus.

The shrine of Dodona was regarded as the oldest Hellenic oracle, possibly dating to the second millennium BCE according to Herodotus. Situated in a remote region away from the main Greek poleis, it was considered second only to the oracle of Delphi in prestige. Priestesses and priests in the sacred grove interpreted the rustling of the oak (or beech) leaves to determine the correct actions to be taken. Aristotle considered the region around Dodona to have been part of Hellas and the region where the Hellenes originated.[2] The oracle was first under the control of the Thesprotians before it passed into the hands of the Molossians.[3] It remained an important religious sanctuary until the rise of Christianity during the Late Roman era.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


yea, I saw it was a long read...so I will read it tonight in bed...curious, what brought up the search for you? what triggered it?

hf
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11/08/2012 01:21 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Well two or three days ago WF I was reading Aruna's field of human interaction thread...and my mind drifted to Sybils and Oracles...and the mysteries surrounding them. How they tap into the trances so easily. Are they born to be Sybils...did they just have that power in them from the start? It's all so facinating to me lol

hf
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
There had to be some Sybils in Egypt...why is that info so hard to find? lol I guess I'll keep searching the net...although I wonder why I am so obessessed in a way to find that out...my love of Egypt knows no bounds I guess lol

hf
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11/08/2012 01:38 PM

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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Is there a certain culture you would like to know about that uses oracles? You seem to be interested in the Greeks. I would personally look east for answers since they were a bit more meticulous in recording.

Oracles / Syblis, etc. Were and still are prevalent in many seemingly unrelated cultures throughout history.

To find the "oldest known" oracle is a daunting task, might I ask why you seek the oldest known? Are you looking for a starting point?
~How fine you look when dressed in rage. Your enemies are fortunate your condition is not permanent. You're lucky, too. Red eyes suit so few.

~Only a few find the way, some don't recognize it when they do - some... don't ever want to.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
The really interesting thing about that paper is how thru historical records accounts of these feminine prophetesses are usually so different from one witness to another...and it can be misunderstood that they were preying on people's emotions yet it is more likely that the prophetess could tap into the emotive field of anyone and communicate in a way they would understand most directly which COULD be perceived as giving conflicting information but I really feel there's SO much more to it...

Hope you find it as inspiring as I did...

:)
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11/08/2012 01:41 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Anon.: El Cant de la Sibilla - Sibilla Catalane



[link to www.youtube.com]

To offer sound and tone to the words.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Is there a certain culture you would like to know about that uses oracles? You seem to be interested in the Greeks. I would personally look east for answers since they were a bit more meticulous in recording.

Oracles / Syblis, etc. Were and still are prevalent in many seemingly unrelated cultures throughout history.

To find the "oldest known" oracle is a daunting task, might I ask why you seek the oldest known? Are you looking for a starting point?
 Quoting: Cheshire~Cat


I guess Egyptian :)but I am interested in any and all information you guys think is important to this topic. Look East? Okay I will do that thank you...I did not think of that lol

Yes I am trying to get a starting point...I want to see how that all came about the first one :) Then look at how the rest came to be after...see if there are any similarites etc...


hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/08/2012 01:48 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
The really interesting thing about that paper is how thru historical records accounts of these feminine prophetesses are usually so different from one witness to another...and it can be misunderstood that they were preying on people's emotions yet it is more likely that the prophetess could tap into the emotive field of anyone and communicate in a way they would understand most directly which COULD be perceived as giving conflicting information but I really feel there's SO much more to it...
Hope you find it as inspiring as I did...

:)
 Quoting: ArunaLuna


I do too Luna :D Thank you for that post hugs

hf
aether

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11/08/2012 01:49 PM

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Re: Sybils and Oracles...

In the banner? What is the significance of her?
 Quoting: Saptaparna


in the library of alexandria there is a women among the men
 Quoting: aether


without her (a women) presence the men would never be inspired (able) to translate because the information of our ancestors is emotional in nature: as in:

it describes our self aware universe
Cheshire~Cat

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11/08/2012 01:53 PM

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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Is there a certain culture you would like to know about that uses oracles? You seem to be interested in the Greeks. I would personally look east for answers since they were a bit more meticulous in recording.

Oracles / Syblis, etc. Were and still are prevalent in many seemingly unrelated cultures throughout history.

To find the "oldest known" oracle is a daunting task, might I ask why you seek the oldest known? Are you looking for a starting point?
 Quoting: Cheshire~Cat


I guess Egyptian :)but I am interested in any and all information you guys think is important to this topic. Look East? Okay I will do that thank you...I did not think of that lol

Yes I am trying to get a starting point...I want to see how that all came about the first one :) Then look at how the rest came to be after...see if there are any similarites etc...


hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


I wish you luck on your task.

Concerning a starting point, the oracles more or less simultaneously manifested throughout different cultures.
This is akin to seeking the first Native American or the first Chinese person. So if you're looking for the first oracle, you might want to try looking for the oldest "Egyptian oracle tradition" or the oldest "Greek oracle tradition". Perhaps then you can narrow your results and decipher your findings easier.
~How fine you look when dressed in rage. Your enemies are fortunate your condition is not permanent. You're lucky, too. Red eyes suit so few.

~Only a few find the way, some don't recognize it when they do - some... don't ever want to.
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Anon.: El Cant de la Sibilla - Sibilla Catalane



[link to www.youtube.com]

To offer sound and tone to the words.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24395285


Thank you for this. I think I will take a break from GLP for a bit and read some more of Luna's paper and watch this. I was hoping someone had a good vid :D

hf
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11/08/2012 01:55 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
There had to be some Sybils in Egypt...why is that info so hard to find? lol I guess I'll keep searching the net...although I wonder why I am so obessessed in a way to find that out...my love of Egypt knows no bounds I guess lol

hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


Appears they were referenced as Vestals in Egypt.

Egyptian vestals, the Eritrean sybils, the Tibetan dakinis, the Greek hetaeras, the Aztec magicians, the Japanese priestesses, the hierophant women of the Middle East, etc.
 Quoting:


Perhaps this will help in your search. Different terminology for the same abilities.
aether

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11/08/2012 01:59 PM

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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
The earliest known oracle was in the renowned temple of Per-Wadjet. This was an important site in the Predynastic era of Ancient Egypt, which includes the cultural developments of ten thousand years from the Paleolithic to 3.100 BC
 Quoting: observation

[link to www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk]
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...

In the banner? What is the significance of her?
 Quoting: Saptaparna


in the library of alexandria there is a women among the men
 Quoting: aether


without her (a women) presence the men would never be inspired (able) to translate because the information of our ancestors is emotional in nature: as in:

it describes our self aware universe
 Quoting: aether


ah I remember seeing this mentioned in the X thread :) Interesting...but thinking now because of luna's link this is not limited to women...we have had prophets :D So really this is such a bigger subject than I could have imagined. Why did I not take into account the male roles in divination...lol

hf
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
There had to be some Sybils in Egypt...why is that info so hard to find? lol I guess I'll keep searching the net...although I wonder why I am so obessessed in a way to find that out...my love of Egypt knows no bounds I guess lol

hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


Appears they were referenced as Vestals in Egypt.

Egyptian vestals, the Eritrean sybils, the Tibetan dakinis, the Greek hetaeras, the Aztec magicians, the Japanese priestesses, the hierophant women of the Middle East, etc.
 Quoting:


Perhaps this will help in your search. Different terminology for the same abilities.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24395285


Awesome clue! wow...thank for the different terms...you guys are so helpful... hugs

hf
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
I can't wait to really dive into this and post what I find from the different ideas presented :D

hf
1908247

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11/08/2012 02:03 PM
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
Vestals.. I guess that was it.. will look in the book.
- ? Nus.

-You Hold Witness I Witness

As if he could, by himself, say:
_Alive, therefore life itself.
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Re: Sybils and Oracles...
The earliest known oracle was in the renowned temple of Per-Wadjet. This was an important site in the Predynastic era of Ancient Egypt, which includes the cultural developments of ten thousand years from the Paleolithic to 3.100 BC
 Quoting: observation

[link to www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk]
 Quoting: aether


There we go... thumbs This is good stuff Aether chuckle

hugs

hf
aether

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11/08/2012 02:05 PM

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Re: Sybils and Oracles...

In the banner? What is the significance of her?
 Quoting: Saptaparna


in the library of alexandria there is a women among the men
 Quoting: aether


without her (a women) presence the men would never be inspired (able) to translate because the information of our ancestors is emotional in nature: as in:

it describes our self aware universe
 Quoting: aether


ah I remember seeing this mentioned in the X thread :) Interesting...but thinking now because of luna's link this is not limited to women...we have had prophets :D So really this is such a bigger subject than I could have imagined. Why did I not take into account the male roles in divination...lol

hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


you don`t until you discover man/men who mmake sense of what you know