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SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2012 11:16 PM
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SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869.[1] The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".



IMO they still got the right to secede... but they gonna have to fight for it...

In the nuclear age, they could secede and tell Washington DC to not move or Washington DC will be turned to glass.
Anonymous Coward
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11/12/2012 10:17 PM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Good info op,thanks.
Anonymous Coward
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11/12/2012 10:25 PM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869.[1] The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".



IMO they still got the right to secede... but they gonna have to fight for it...

In the nuclear age, they could secede and tell Washington DC to not move or Washington DC will be turned to glass.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27563645


Well, what the hell do you expect the SCOTUS to rule? The War of Federal Aggression was over and the FEDERAL government won.

After the Federal Government slaughters, rapes, burns, starves, tortures and destroys hundreds of thousands, you really think any Supreme court Judge was going to rule against them?

To do so would have meant summery execution.

The War criminals won, to think the SCOTUS then or today would actually stand up for the Constitution or States rights is laughable.
Shelgeyr

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11/13/2012 02:17 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
"Texas v. White" won't matter two hoots.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, that was a victor's ruling and had it been handed down during the actual war (an impossible situation, and not germane to the details of the case, but this requires a stretch...) it would have held no weight.

TEXAS certainly considered themselves to have left the Union. This post-Civil War rewriting of history to achieve a political and monetary gain really has no bearing on our present reality.

The argument that "Texas can't secede because the Supreme Court in 1869 said they couldn't (nor could any other state)" would devolve to that of 12 dead men vs. an active and angry state. It is a pointless argument. It is like arguing with the weather.

Besides, a very valid argument can be made that "Texas v. White" is contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the text of the Declaration of Independence.

If Obama (or anyone, really) holds up and waves a copy of "Texas v. White", and Texas holds up and waves back with the Declaration of Independence, which do you think is the more important, more powerful document?

The innate rights of a self-governing people say "Texas v. White", as a practicality, is hogwash.

Also, if you want to get prickly about it, "Texas v. White" was about a claim made by the post-war, Federally-imposed Reconstruction government of Texas regarding some US bonds owned by Texas, therefore their additional holding - based merely upon accepting original jurisdiction - that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede could easily be revisited as having been an abuse of due process committed by an activist court, and had really nothing to do with the merits of the case.

In other words, having just won a bloody and brutal war, and wanting to prevent a relapse, it looks like the court took an unrelated but available opportunity to unilaterally impose their will, and in effect legislate from the bench.

I certainly don't blame them for having that mindset, and I'm quite glad the Union won the civil war. But bad case law is bad case law, and even if it was ROCK SOLID it would not matter in the least if secession efforts get strongly underway.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 02:19 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
"Texas v. White" won't matter two hoots.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, that was a victor's ruling and had it been handed down during the actual war (an impossible situation, and not germane to the details of the case, but this requires a stretch...) it would have held no weight.

TEXAS certainly considered themselves to have left the Union. This post-Civil War rewriting of history to achieve a political and monetary gain really has no bearing on our present reality.

The argument that "Texas can't secede because the Supreme Court in 1869 said they couldn't (nor could any other state)" would devolve to that of 12 dead men vs. an active and angry state. It is a pointless argument. It is like arguing with the weather.

Besides, a very valid argument can be made that "Texas v. White" is contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the text of the Declaration of Independence.

If Obama (or anyone, really) holds up and waves a copy of "Texas v. White", and Texas holds up and waves back with the Declaration of Independence, which do you think is the more important, more powerful document?

The innate rights of a self-governing people say "Texas v. White", as a practicality, is hogwash.

Also, if you want to get prickly about it, "Texas v. White" was about a claim made by the post-war, Federally-imposed Reconstruction government of Texas regarding some US bonds owned by Texas, therefore their additional holding - based merely upon accepting original jurisdiction - that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede could easily be revisited as having been an abuse of due process committed by an activist court, and had really nothing to do with the merits of the case.

In other words, having just won a bloody and brutal war, and wanting to prevent a relapse, it looks like the court took an unrelated but available opportunity to unilaterally impose their will, and in effect legislate from the bench.

I certainly don't blame them for having that mindset, and I'm quite glad the Union won the civil war. But bad case law is bad case law, and even if it was ROCK SOLID it would not matter in the least if secession efforts get strongly underway.
 Quoting: Shelgeyr


I think people have pointed to Texas vs White when it comes to debunking people who claim (Incorrectly) that Texas has some special clause that lets it leave the union leagaly. Obviously if all the people in Texas are dead set on leaving the union, no law is going to stop them.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 02:20 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Yeah, well the Declaration of Independence and the innate rights of man to strive for freedom predate that case you brought up.
Big Irish Bastard
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11/13/2012 02:30 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
“Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government...” (Thomas Jefferson)

Well, considering the Supreme Court, we are already 2 out of 3 conscerning Life, Liberty, and the pursuite of happiness.
(1). The Supreme Court decided in 1973 that a new life in it's Mother's stomach can be killed.
(2). The Supreme Court recently sold out and said Obama Care is legal, which will affect everyone's liberty for years to come.

Last Edited by Big Irish Bastard on 11/13/2012 02:32 AM
"I like Sub Commanders. They don't have time for bullshit, neither do I." (Franklin Roosevelt)
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 06:16 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Texas was an independent country from 1836 to 1845. They were the only state who joined the union through a treaty instead of annexation.

Nowhere in the Texas constitution does it say that Texas can't change it's mind and break the treaty.

There is one clause in the Texas constitution that states "Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States".

NOT to the President of the US or even the Congress of the US.

And since the US Constitution doesn't really say anything about states seceding, I don't even know why they would have to petition the US government to allow them to do so.
NightWisp

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11/13/2012 06:20 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Formality
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 06:21 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Texas can't use their nukes without the codes from the POTUS.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 06:22 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
you don't need their permission to secede.

do you think Washington asked the Queen
if America could be independent ??

hell no,
he sent her armies a hail of bullets
to let her know.

no paper was necessary
unless you count the paper wadding
holding the lead balls
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 06:24 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Texas can't use their nukes without the codes from the POTUS.
 Quoting: Leslie Zevo


this is a problem the Chech Republic had.

once the nukes were taken over,
the grid was taken down and re-programmed

then the POTUS has no control over them
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 06:36 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 06:55 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


The You Know Who's are afraid all their debt slaves are going to run away.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:00 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


The You Know Who's are afraid all their debt slaves are going to run away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27620715


who the fvck needs 4 yachts, 6 jets, 12 castles
and $2 Trillion in gold in their vault ??

I think they have stolen enough from
us already don't you think ??
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:04 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Just a guess, but I'd assume it was against British law for the colonies to declare their independence too.
Masiro

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11/13/2012 07:04 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
very simple call for a vote on secession in congress per state
if congress approves secession in a vote equal to granting statehood they that state has seceded.
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 07:09 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
"Texas v. White" won't matter two hoots.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, that was a victor's ruling and had it been handed down during the actual war (an impossible situation, and not germane to the details of the case, but this requires a stretch...) it would have held no weight.

TEXAS certainly considered themselves to have left the Union. This post-Civil War rewriting of history to achieve a political and monetary gain really has no bearing on our present reality.

The argument that "Texas can't secede because the Supreme Court in 1869 said they couldn't (nor could any other state)" would devolve to that of 12 dead men vs. an active and angry state. It is a pointless argument. It is like arguing with the weather.

Besides, a very valid argument can be made that "Texas v. White" is contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the text of the Declaration of Independence.

If Obama (or anyone, really) holds up and waves a copy of "Texas v. White", and Texas holds up and waves back with the Declaration of Independence, which do you think is the more important, more powerful document?

The innate rights of a self-governing people say "Texas v. White", as a practicality, is hogwash.

Also, if you want to get prickly about it, "Texas v. White" was about a claim made by the post-war, Federally-imposed Reconstruction government of Texas regarding some US bonds owned by Texas, therefore their additional holding - based merely upon accepting original jurisdiction - that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede could easily be revisited as having been an abuse of due process committed by an activist court, and had really nothing to do with the merits of the case.

In other words, having just won a bloody and brutal war, and wanting to prevent a relapse, it looks like the court took an unrelated but available opportunity to unilaterally impose their will, and in effect legislate from the bench.

I certainly don't blame them for having that mindset, and I'm quite glad the Union won the civil war. But bad case law is bad case law, and even if it was ROCK SOLID it would not matter in the least if secession efforts get strongly underway.
 Quoting: Shelgeyr


I think people have pointed to Texas vs White when it comes to debunking people who claim (Incorrectly) that Texas has some special clause that lets it leave the union leagaly. Obviously if all the people in Texas are dead set on leaving the union, no law is going to stop them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9266723


^^That^^

.. and many other states will domino in behind them

One observation I do have is this:

States wanting to secede are doing so because they wish to live by the US Constitution. With that said, why do they have to secede? Why not boot out the blue states that want their socialist system? It could be argued that the blue states have already seceded & are trying to force their agenda down the throats of the rest of the country.
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Killer Bunny mockingjay
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11/13/2012 07:12 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


... because if the red states secede, where will they get the taxes to support all the entitled crybabies in the blue state urban centers?
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Killer Bunny mockingjay
IJumpInIt
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11/13/2012 07:20 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Any State would need to vote on whether to leave the union, and if so then create their OWN version of a 'Decleration of Independence' from the USA.

From that point on the 'United States' would have zero claim on anything within that former State.

Period.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


The You Know Who's are afraid all their debt slaves are going to run away.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27620715


who the fvck needs 4 yachts, 6 jets, 12 castles
and $2 Trillion in gold in their vault ??

I think they have stolen enough from
us already don't you think ??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


Somebody stole your jet?
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Killer Bunny mockingjay
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11/13/2012 07:22 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869.[1] The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".



IMO they still got the right to secede... but they gonna have to fight for it...

In the nuclear age, they could secede and tell Washington DC to not move or Washington DC will be turned to glass.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27563645





If you doodles have been following any with this administration, the constitution no longer exists. It's null and void. Maybe the peeps can write their own executive order and make the changes that way..;)
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:25 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


... because if the red states secede, where will they get the taxes to support all the entitled crybabies in the blue state urban centers?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


New Joisy actually give the federal scumbags TWICE as much as we get back from them, actually.

South Jersey petition joins state efforts to secede from the Union
[link to www.newjerseynewsroom.com]
IJumpInIt
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11/13/2012 07:26 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Any State would need to vote on whether to leave the union, and if so then create their OWN version of a 'Decleration of Independence' from the USA.

From that point on the 'United States' would have zero claim on anything within that former State.

Period.
 Quoting: IJumpInIt 24238594


States have their OWN 'Constitution' as well. Can't forget it is up to the people of the given State. nObama and his henchmen fear THE PEOPLE as do all 'Governments'.

This is what nObama wants - to rip apart the 'U.S.A.'.

It is time to just do it already. These petitions are just the beginning.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:27 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Somebody stole your jet?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


lol, no

my stolen money paid for that jet
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 07:30 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


... because if the red states secede, where will they get the taxes to support all the entitled crybabies in the blue state urban centers?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


New Joisy actually give the federal scumbags TWICE as much as we get back from them, actually.

South Jersey petition joins state efforts to secede from the Union
[link to www.newjerseynewsroom.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27620715


New Jersey has been hijacked by the liberal spillover from NYC.
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Killer Bunny mockingjay
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 07:31 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Somebody stole your jet?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


lol, no

my stolen money paid for that jet
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


You mean Air Force One, or Air Force Two that Michelle jet sets around on?
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Killer Bunny mockingjay
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:35 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
All I know is that all this talk of secession is invigorating!!

DAMN GOOD!

This country NEEDS to break down into smaller nation-states.

Let the liberal lefties have their paradises in New York and California and elsewhere.

The rest of us choose not to participate, thank you. We choose not to fund your bottomless pit of welfare dependency that grows deeper each year.
Lime Flavoured Redux

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11/13/2012 07:42 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
The key word in the ruling is "unilaterally". If they had agreement from the other states they could secede.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:42 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Somebody stole your jet?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


lol, no

my stolen money paid for that jet
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


You mean Air Force One, or Air Force Two that Michelle jet sets around on?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


lol

Jane you are a riot this morning.
you must have woke up on right side
of the bed this morning

or either the lovin was excellent last night

or both

hahahaha
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:45 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
The key word in the ruling is "unilaterally". If they had agreement from the other states they could secede.
 Quoting: Lime Flavoured Redux


they already have over 100,000 names
on those petitions combined in 24 hrs

how much unilaterally do you need ??

News








We're dropping truth bombs like it's the end of days!