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SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:47 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Just face it.... 3/4 of the USA is READ... and Californian... New York and New Jersey and the Far Easterns states are Blue. How about allow the CENTRAL STATES ... secede and LEAVE the Govt Suckers... to their state.

We the people of the 3/4 READ are paying for 1/4 of those who don't want to work or contribute to the USA financially.

Let EACH STATE SUPPORT Their own OBLIGATION to the Govt.... that way... YOU HAVE A CHOICE as to where to live... and what you pay.

That would be the FAIR THING to do.

"Texas v. White" won't matter two hoots.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, that was a victor's ruling and had it been handed down during the actual war (an impossible situation, and not germane to the details of the case, but this requires a stretch...) it would have held no weight.

TEXAS certainly considered themselves to have left the Union. This post-Civil War rewriting of history to achieve a political and monetary gain really has no bearing on our present reality.

The argument that "Texas can't secede because the Supreme Court in 1869 said they couldn't (nor could any other state)" would devolve to that of 12 dead men vs. an active and angry state. It is a pointless argument. It is like arguing with the weather.

Besides, a very valid argument can be made that "Texas v. White" is contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the text of the Declaration of Independence.

If Obama (or anyone, really) holds up and waves a copy of "Texas v. White", and Texas holds up and waves back with the Declaration of Independence, which do you think is the more important, more powerful document?

The innate rights of a self-governing people say "Texas v. White", as a practicality, is hogwash.

Also, if you want to get prickly about it, "Texas v. White" was about a claim made by the post-war, Federally-imposed Reconstruction government of Texas regarding some US bonds owned by Texas, therefore their additional holding - based merely upon accepting original jurisdiction - that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede could easily be revisited as having been an abuse of due process committed by an activist court, and had really nothing to do with the merits of the case.

In other words, having just won a bloody and brutal war, and wanting to prevent a relapse, it looks like the court took an unrelated but available opportunity to unilaterally impose their will, and in effect legislate from the bench.

I certainly don't blame them for having that mindset, and I'm quite glad the Union won the civil war. But bad case law is bad case law, and even if it was ROCK SOLID it would not matter in the least if secession efforts get strongly underway.
 Quoting: Shelgeyr
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 07:49 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Somebody stole your jet?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


lol, no

my stolen money paid for that jet
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


You mean Air Force One, or Air Force Two that Michelle jet sets around on?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


lol

Jane you are a riot this morning.
you must have woke up on right side
of the bed this morning

or either the lovin was excellent last night

or both

hahahaha
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107



At a tournament last weekend, making up for lost time ;o)
eyebat

Last Edited by Lady Jane Smith on 11/13/2012 07:50 AM
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Janebroom
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Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:51 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869.[1] The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".



IMO they still got the right to secede... but they gonna have to fight for it...

In the nuclear age, they could secede and tell Washington DC to not move or Washington DC will be turned to glass.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27563645


I thought all the rights not specifically withheld in the Constitution are given to the States or the People. It says that in plain English.

That should include the right of secession.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:58 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
I think you all should check out the following charts....by far RED states receiving more federal dollars than they contribute way out weigh BLUE states....

[link to thecentristword.files.wordpress.com]

just sayin
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 07:59 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Texas was an independent country from 1836 to 1845. They were the only state who joined the union through a treaty instead of annexation.

Nowhere in the Texas constitution does it say that Texas can't change it's mind and break the treaty.

There is one clause in the Texas constitution that states "Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States".

NOT to the President of the US or even the Congress of the US.

And since the US Constitution doesn't really say anything about states seceding, I don't even know why they would have to petition the US government to allow them to do so.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1474948


Well it sounds like Texas may have slightly less of an implied right to secede than the other States. Above you say that the Texas Constitution explicitly makes it subordinate to the US Constitution. Other States may not even have that.

The US Constitution does not prohibit States from seceding, therefore according to the 9th and 10th Amendments, they have that right, as I read it. The later SCOTUS decision went against that plain language, so whaddaya do ...

The Declaration of Independence probably stopped having any "legal" force the moment the Constitution was imposed, if not earlier. It is a moral document not a legal one. Morality hasn't changed, and as far as I am concerned, Texas has every right to say it's decided to go its own way. So does any other State. Let DC deal with the debt and the currency rofl .
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 08:00 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
I think you all should check out the following charts....by far RED states receiving more federal dollars than they contribute way out weigh BLUE states....

[link to thecentristword.files.wordpress.com]

just sayin
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4079433


So then the Dems should be happy to see those red "welfare queen" States secede. Win-win proposition!
ScrumpTheTexan
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11/13/2012 08:06 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
One observation I do have is this:

States wanting to secede are doing so because they wish to live by the US Constitution. With that said, why do they have to secede? Why not boot out the blue states that want their socialist system? It could be argued that the blue states have already seceded & are trying to force their agenda down the throats of the rest of the country.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


Amen.

You should have been born here Janie... on behalf of Texas, the State that digs smart, badass ninja chicks, I'm awarding you honorary and permanent Native Texan status effective immediately.

hi

Stop at the first DPS station you come to once over the border and show this post to the duty officer. Once quizzed and cleared (protip: cement is pronounced 'see-mint') you can pick up your complementary sidearm and sausage gravy recipe at the desk if you're not already strapped... welcome to Texas!

dontmesswith
I am a Christian.

Christian does not equal doormat or pushover.

SickOfItAll

"I Have Sworn upon the Altar of God... Eternal Hostility against every form of Tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson, Sep. 23, 1800

MedinaD
For previous Newsletters, click 'Scrump's News Letters' @ [link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 08:08 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
At a tournament last weekend,

 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


did you win ??
FatalW1shes

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11/13/2012 08:32 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
What the government wants is not relevant.



The governmnet works for the people Not the other way around.


So many people are slaves to the government bowing and doing it's bidding and obeying what it says.


That's bullshit.



The People run this country. Not the government. If enough people in a state want to leave, the government must listen to them or risk a civil war.

And I do believe there are enough people in Texas sick of the shit going on in this country.

I don't want a civil war. I hate what is going on and this country is dangerously divided.....

It's not a good thing.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 08:41 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869.[1] The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".



IMO they still got the right to secede... but they gonna have to fight for it...

In the nuclear age, they could secede and tell Washington DC to not move or Washington DC will be turned to glass.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27563645


What on earth cpuld they possibly do to us?

Iean do you actually think they would lie to say we were evil.
Maybe they could lie and say we are trying to enslave people en masse and thatthe minorities (their dupes) are in danger from whitey
maybe they will even go the the extent to say the minorities are being forced by whitey to join the fight against the government and a hundred years from nkw after the constant brainwashing it will alake sense even though it isnt true.
Do you actually think its scripted that far ahead?


As if

oh wait

nevermind
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 08:44 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869.[1] The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that Texas had remained a state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".



IMO they still got the right to secede... but they gonna have to fight for it...

In the nuclear age, they could secede and tell Washington DC to not move or Washington DC will be turned to glass.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27563645


The hell they can't..we all can secede.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 08:48 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Read somewhere that Texas and Hawaii are the only ones(States)that didnt hand over their lands under their Treaties of Unionhood.
notgonna

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11/13/2012 09:04 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
I think you all should check out the following charts....by far RED states receiving more federal dollars than they contribute way out weigh BLUE states....

[link to thecentristword.files.wordpress.com]

just sayin
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4079433


Well, this discussion is about Texas - and we happen to give more than we get... That just adds more fodder to the fire...

Scary about NM - God help us if they try to tack on...

Question for y'all as I have no clue to the answer:

Is a state legally required to dole out food stamps/medicaid etc...? What would stop TX from refusing to participate in those programs?

It would be rough for some but we're good people here - neighbors and churches will help the truly needy...

If Perry had cajones, he should do this as first step to cleaning the shelves. Maybe offer free one way transportation to NM...

BTW, if you've never been to NM - God has blessed that place with pure beauty and the people have turned it into pure $hite... There are parts I have been in that are by far more desolate, poor and scary than a back alley in Honduras... Richardson and Napolitano only made it worse if that's possible - and she'll be in charge of the FEMA camps - reason enough to quake in your boots...
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:12 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
The key word in the ruling is "unilaterally". If they had agreement from the other states they could secede.
 Quoting: Lime Flavoured Redux


they already have over 100,000 names
on those petitions combined in 24 hrs

how much unilaterally do you need ??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


I think a majority of states would be required to
dissolve the Union.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 09:14 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
One observation I do have is this:

States wanting to secede are doing so because they wish to live by the US Constitution. With that said, why do they have to secede? Why not boot out the blue states that want their socialist system? It could be argued that the blue states have already seceded & are trying to force their agenda down the throats of the rest of the country.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


Amen.

You should have been born here Janie... on behalf of Texas, the State that digs smart, badass ninja chicks, I'm awarding you honorary and permanent Native Texan status effective immediately.

hi

Stop at the first DPS station you come to once over the border and show this post to the duty officer. Once quizzed and cleared (protip: cement is pronounced 'see-mint') you can pick up your complementary sidearm and sausage gravy recipe at the desk if you're not already strapped... welcome to Texas!

dontmesswith
 Quoting: ScrumpTheTexan


Dancing Kitty

I still own property in Texas, husband was born & raised there. Texas is now giving me excellent cause to never sell that property.

Ya just never know ...........

I still have my Texas concealed carry :o)

Last Edited by Lady Jane Smith on 11/13/2012 09:15 AM
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Janebroom
Killer Bunny mockingjay
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11/13/2012 09:15 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
They would have to fight for it anyways. Too much interweaving of resources & infrastructure. Texas' refineries and refined petroleum output alone would pinch the US, let alone all the other infrastructure, NASA, the large military base at Fort Hood, etc.

Here's a couple points of trivia to ponder.

1. The Texas flag flies at the same level as the US flag throughout the state as it was a republic first.

2. Kids in school pledge allegiance not only to the US flag during morning sessions, but also to Texas as well. Been doing this for many years.
TechRaider

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11/13/2012 09:16 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Secession from the Union is the ultimate protection from a Union gone wild and out of the control of the states and citizens.
Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may.
Sam Houston

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 09:18 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
At a tournament last weekend,

 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


did you win ??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


I work as a judge -- cannot afford the concussions with kiddos to watch out for.

My daughter took first in sparring, poomsae & breaking in her category. Her skills will far exceed mine.

** Proud Mommy smiles **
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Janebroom
Killer Bunny mockingjay
Guenwyfar

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11/13/2012 09:21 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
there seems to be a lot of desperation for texas and others NOT to secede


its the same shit people spin to try dissuade britain from dumping the eu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27468783


You didn't really think they'd let it happen peacefully or without drama.. did you?
Guenwyfar

"Karma is like a rubberband.. it can only stretch so far before it comes back and smacks you in the face."

"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition."

"Religion is like a penis, it's fine to have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and wave it in my face, that's when we have a problem."
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 09:21 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
The key word in the ruling is "unilaterally". If they had agreement from the other states they could secede.
 Quoting: Lime Flavoured Redux


they already have over 100,000 names
on those petitions combined in 24 hrs

how much unilaterally do you need ??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27656107


I think a majority of states would be required to
dissolve the Union.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1512216


This is not a question of dissolving the union. It is a discussion on coerced participation.
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Janebroom
Killer Bunny mockingjay
Guenwyfar

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11/13/2012 09:23 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
One observation I do have is this:

States wanting to secede are doing so because they wish to live by the US Constitution. With that said, why do they have to secede? Why not boot out the blue states that want their socialist system? It could be argued that the blue states have already seceded & are trying to force their agenda down the throats of the rest of the country.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


Amen.

You should have been born here Janie... on behalf of Texas, the State that digs smart, badass ninja chicks, I'm awarding you honorary and permanent Native Texan status effective immediately.

hi

Stop at the first DPS station you come to once over the border and show this post to the duty officer. Once quizzed and cleared (protip: cement is pronounced 'see-mint') you can pick up your complementary sidearm and sausage gravy recipe at the desk if you're not already strapped... welcome to Texas!

dontmesswith
 Quoting: ScrumpTheTexan


Mmm. Thanks for making my mind up on what to have for breakfast. Haven't had good biscuits and gravy in almost two years which is the last time I visited family in Texas!
Guenwyfar

"Karma is like a rubberband.. it can only stretch so far before it comes back and smacks you in the face."

"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition."

"Religion is like a penis, it's fine to have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and wave it in my face, that's when we have a problem."
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:46 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
You roflmonkeys are cArazy!

Just imagine what will happen within 3 seconds of ALL FEDERAL MONEY ceasing to enter Texas....

social security, welfare, infinite subsidies, lingering disaster help, etc., etc.,

You'd have a meltdown and demands to re-enter the Union before you could say funny money.

The states and most of the people are 100% dependent on Federal cash to survive. Period.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:47 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
So, say Texas did secede... are they going to have to close down the borders? Are there going to be hoards of people trying to get in from the rest of the U.S.? I live a few hundred miles north, I'd probably try to go! But would I be able to? Would property prices skyrocket because there would be a huge demand for them?? Should I just move now just in case byebye
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:49 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
its not even relevant
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:50 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
You roflmonkeys are cArazy!

Just imagine what will happen within 3 seconds of ALL FEDERAL MONEY ceasing to enter Texas....

social security, welfare, infinite subsidies, lingering disaster help, etc., etc.,

You'd have a meltdown and demands to re-enter the Union before you could say funny money.

The states and most of the people are 100% dependent on Federal cash to survive. Period.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27384624


perhaps people should move from texas who cant survive.

its imperative that something like this be tried, see how many people stay there, live there.

its a step in the right direction.
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:54 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
Its just an economic document, of course they can secede..


However, if you are registered to vote than you are a citizen of the UNITED STATES and only RESIDE in one of the several states ...

To have a state secede would mean you need to find a military base, an arsenal, or walk your happy as to Washington DC ....
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:56 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
For instnace i'm natural born native... not a USCitizen, no legal name, address or zip code (all business information , commerce)

Lord knows where the next natural born citizen is ... so I am waiting for people to wake up so we can form the republic of flordia again (just need to vote in reps who are not US Citzens)
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:58 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
a USCitizen is not a citizen of the several states, they merely reside there (resident alien)
Anonymous Coward
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11/13/2012 09:59 AM
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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
notice there is foreign money to accomodate the foreigners in our land (us citizens)
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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11/13/2012 10:00 AM

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Re: SCOTUS case Texas V. White or why states can't secede
You roflmonkeys are cArazy!

Just imagine what will happen within 3 seconds of ALL FEDERAL MONEY ceasing to enter Texas....

social security, welfare, infinite subsidies, lingering disaster help, etc., etc.,

You'd have a meltdown and demands to re-enter the Union before you could say funny money.

The states and most of the people are 100% dependent on Federal cash to survive. Period.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27384624


Imagine what will happen in 3 seconds when all Texas money ceases to enter the Fed. Including taxes on all those energy gross revenues.

baby


OBTW, federal cash is money extorted from the states.

Last Edited by Lady Jane Smith on 11/13/2012 10:01 AM
Life is karma and karma always reflects both past and present circumstance. Our time here is short, so choose carefully and behave well, for all of your tomorrows are presently being decided.

"Don't die on a small cross..." Saddletramp's Mom

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
-- William Shakespeare, born April 23, 1564.

Janebroom
Killer Bunny mockingjay

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