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Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2012 06:54 PM
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Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
If and when TSHTF... how high a technology level do you think will what's left of society have ?

No power grid, or almost none (maybe locally ?)
Destabilized society with everything you people have already been preparing for - or, if you didn't, polemize heavily on GLP...

I have been thinking whether it would still be possible to have and use computers. Obviously, some source of power would be needed. But I have had a yet more "bizarre" idea. What if you were able to build your own computer yourself ?

What skills would be needed for this to be possible ?
Many skills, let there be no doubt about it. The basic knowledge you would need is what computers are, what exactly they are supposed to do, how they work, their anatomy (what they consist of physically), etc.

Basically, you would have to know all about computers. You would also have to have a very good knowledge of electronics and electricity.

In the worst case scenario, you would have to build it from scratch, so you would have to have knowledge about how to handle, shape, and tool the materials you will be using, be it scavenged plastic, metal, whatever else... or you would have to simply know how to produce them. The fact those materials are today mass produced doesn't mean it is impossibe to manufacture them in your kitchen, so to speak.

This might even entail knowledge (n the absolute worst, worst case scenario) about mining (for metals), extracting ore, and having the tools necessary for using the ore.

We have to be realistic however and realize it just isn't possible to fabricate certain things such as chips or integrated circuits as you need high precision machinery for this (just making fine wires with enough precision would be tricky enough, after you have been able to take the time to learn it). You would probably have to revert to using older technology replacing the chips and the integrated circuits with whatever they had before those (but improving on it with the knowledge we have today). Who knows - maybe you would wind up with a computer filling up several rooms. This obviously, all goes only if you want a real electronic computer, not an abacus or a simple old calculating machine...

Very likely all the necessary knowledge exists in books and manuals out there... apart from this, the only other thing which is needed is the manuals skills, the tools, and the materials.

And, of course, an adequate power source.
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2012 06:57 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
won't have any problem ..could make 6 or 7 right now with all my parts ..and they would all be pretty fast ..bring it
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3505427
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11/16/2012 06:58 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
Or you could use paper and a pencil..asshat..
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/16/2012 07:04 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
Simply put, it might be necessary to revert so some lower level of technology, but still keeping the basic idea of what computers are supposed to do, which is automate the human mind.
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2012 07:07 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
If you could do it, you'd be back to calculators the size of a room.

A better idea would be to keep a batch of necessary parts and do everything you can to shield them.

Personally though...my whole life has been working with computers. If TSHTF, I'll enjoy a break (that is until I need to run a tactical simulation of the zombie horde coming my way...at that point, oh well).
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2012 07:08 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
We have to be realistic however and realize it just isn't possible to fabricate certain things such as chips or integrated circuits as you need high precision machinery for this (just making fine wires with enough precision would be tricky enough, after you have been able to take the time to learn it). You would probably have to revert to using older technology replacing the chips and the integrated circuits with whatever they had before those (but improving on it with the knowledge we have today). Who knows - maybe you would wind up with a computer filling up several rooms. This obviously, all goes only if you want a real electronic computer, not an abacus or a simple old calculating machine...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481

i guess one could build something mechanical, electrical or maybe even basic electronic stuff (if scrap parts are available).

try building a usefull electric circuit first, with junkyard parts. then try building an electronic circuit by etching it or something. or try soldering with primitive methods... you won't get far.

try making a slide rule from scratch. then try making a curta calculator with a cnc machine. imagine you need to do that without a cnc machine.
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2012 07:09 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
Or you could use paper and a pencil..asshat..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3505427


or sticks and stones
explosion abombhidingabombexplosion
Anonymous Coward
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Belgium
11/16/2012 07:12 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
op: [link to calculating.files.wordpress.com]
an all mechanical, advanced calculator; if properly built, it will last several generations...
EVIL_BEAN_KID

User ID: 27867351
United States
11/16/2012 07:13 PM

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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
somebody has been watching too much "revolution" on TV
SLAM THAT CLAM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/16/2012 07:13 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
If you could do it, you'd be back to calculators the size of a room.

A better idea would be to keep a batch of necessary parts and do everything you can to shield them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26298928

This would be ideal (much less than worst case scenario, anyway).

What I was talking about, was a purely theoretical situation where actual computers or even parts were not to be found anymore which, I admit, is unlikely.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/16/2012 07:20 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?

We have to be realistic however and realize it just isn't possible to fabricate certain things such as chips or integrated circuits as you need high precision machinery for this (just making fine wires with enough precision would be tricky enough, after you have been able to take the time to learn it). You would probably have to revert to using older technology replacing the chips and the integrated circuits with whatever they had before those (but improving on it with the knowledge we have today). Who knows - maybe you would wind up with a computer filling up several rooms. This obviously, all goes only if you want a real electronic computer, not an abacus or a simple old calculating machine...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481

i guess one could build something mechanical, electrical or maybe even basic electronic stuff (if scrap parts are available).

try building a usefull electric circuit first, with junkyard parts. then try building an electronic circuit by etching it or something. or try soldering with primitive methods... you won't get far.

try making a slide rule from scratch. then try making a curta calculator with a cnc machine. imagine you need to do that without a cnc machine.

If you know the process of etching circuits and how to reproduce it in a simplified form in your garage or your kitchen, you are all set for making your own elementary home built electronic circuits.

That's one tiny but essential part.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 26298928
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11/16/2012 07:25 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
If you could do it, you'd be back to calculators the size of a room.

A better idea would be to keep a batch of necessary parts and do everything you can to shield them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26298928

This would be ideal (much less than worst case scenario, anyway).

What I was talking about, was a purely theoretical situation where actual computers or even parts were not to be found anymore which, I admit, is unlikely.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481


Yeah, in that case, you'd have to recreate a lot of technologies first. Interesting question though, OP.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/16/2012 07:25 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
op: [link to calculating.files.wordpress.com]
an all mechanical, advanced calculator; if properly built, it will last several generations...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15782258

Nice, but I was talking about a computer WITH a screen... maybe you will think I am hallucinating now, but if you know the materials a flat screen is made of, and how LCD displays work, and you can get hold of the chemicals you need, who knows...

Also, it is not necessarily that all this knowledge is contained in one single person. Obviously, several people could pool their knowledge and skills together.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 27889481
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11/16/2012 07:27 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
If you could do it, you'd be back to calculators the size of a room.

A better idea would be to keep a batch of necessary parts and do everything you can to shield them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26298928

This would be ideal (much less than worst case scenario, anyway).

What I was talking about, was a purely theoretical situation where actual computers or even parts were not to be found anymore which, I admit, is unlikely.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481


Yeah, in that case, you'd have to recreate a lot of technologies first. Interesting question though, OP.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26298928

Yes. You just have to work it out.
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2012 07:28 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
just draw a leaf

then draw a volcano under the leaf

and the maybe some happy clouds
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 15782258
Belgium
11/16/2012 07:28 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
op: [link to calculating.files.wordpress.com]
an all mechanical, advanced calculator; if properly built, it will last several generations...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15782258

Nice, but I was talking about a computer WITH a screen... maybe you will think I am hallucinating now, but if you know the materials a flat screen is made of, and how LCD displays work, and you can get hold of the chemicals you need, who knows...

Also, it is not necessarily that all this knowledge is contained in one single person. Obviously, several people could pool their knowledge and skills together.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481

you can't bake computer chips in a campfire...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 27889481
Belgium
11/16/2012 07:35 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?

We have to be realistic however and realize it just isn't possible to fabricate certain things such as chips or integrated circuits as you need high precision machinery for this (just making fine wires with enough precision would be tricky enough, after you have been able to take the time to learn it). You would probably have to revert to using older technology replacing the chips and the integrated circuits with whatever they had before those (but improving on it with the knowledge we have today). Who knows - maybe you would wind up with a computer filling up several rooms. This obviously, all goes only if you want a real electronic computer, not an abacus or a simple old calculating machine...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481

i guess one could build something mechanical, electrical or maybe even basic electronic stuff (if scrap parts are available).

try building a usefull electric circuit first, with junkyard parts. then try building an electronic circuit by etching it or something. or try soldering with primitive methods... you won't get far.

try making a slide rule from scratch. then try making a curta calculator with a cnc machine. imagine you need to do that without a cnc machine.

If you know the process of etching circuits and how to reproduce it in a simplified form in your garage or your kitchen, you are all set for making your own elementary home built electronic circuits.

That's one tiny but essential part.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15782258

Something went wrong with my reply here. Maybe a glitch in the forum software, or a network problem.

I'll reconstruct my reply.
The whole text in the post above was from the poster I was replying to, only the last line ("That's one tiny but essential part") was a part of my reply. What I had written was something like this :

"I don't know what cnc machines are, but that's the idea.
If you know the process of etching circuits, and you can reproduce it simplified in your kitchen or in your garage, you might be able to make your own home produced circuits.

That's one tiny but essential part."
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 27889481
Belgium
11/16/2012 07:37 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
op: [link to calculating.files.wordpress.com]
an all mechanical, advanced calculator; if properly built, it will last several generations...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15782258

Nice, but I was talking about a computer WITH a screen... maybe you will think I am hallucinating now, but if you know the materials a flat screen is made of, and how LCD displays work, and you can get hold of the chemicals you need, who knows...

Also, it is not necessarily that all this knowledge is contained in one single person. Obviously, several people could pool their knowledge and skills together.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481

you can't bake computer chips in a campfire...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15782258

Oh, you could always stick to roasting marshmallows, I suppose...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Belgium
11/16/2012 07:41 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
The reason I made this thread was because I was intrigued by this idea of "recreating" many diverse technologies, as one poster here was saying.

It's an interesting problem. How far could you really go if you were able, starting from your own skills and knowledge, to recreate all the skills and knowledge necessary for - in this case - building your own computer ?
phoenixe

User ID: 27791746
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11/16/2012 07:42 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
i am sure that some old computers still will be ok .

as we all carry our computer waste to africa,so-called recycling, and africa is the only shtf-free zone in nearly all scenarios, just go there and get what you need.
you´ll maybe have to build a ship from wood with your own hands first, but..

i´ll have some old ones at hand, ham radio and basic knowledge how to use this as basic internet.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/16/2012 07:43 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
somebody has been watching too much "revolution" on TV
 Quoting: EVIL_BEAN_KID

Not me... I don't even know what it is about.
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
11/16/2012 08:10 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
EMPerror

User ID: 8804293
Lithuania
11/17/2012 09:42 AM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
First of all you'll be extremely happy if you'll be able to build a simple transistor if SHTF situation wipes out all chips.
Then there would be a problem for a simple calculator, needless to say anything about a computer.

Chemicals, rare metals, vacuum pumps and chambers, silicon (which is like glass), cutting equipment. There is not only rock or suitable sand finding is invovled, extracting, and refining to a pure suitable form is needed.

All electronics now use lead free soldering. The problem with it, it corrodes without lead (approx. 7 years for failure).
Electronics has a limited life-span. The last modern computer goes out, you'll have to forget modern chips for a long time. Placing and routing millions of components without a computer is hardly possible. You'll need first computer for routing purposes.

Pure transistor computers were improved to the limit at the end of their era, so technologies would be suitable from that time. I have no data about production requirements for foreign computers, only Lithuanian.
1968 year, transistor computer "Ruta 110", needed 410km of wires, 16000 transistors and diodes.
[link to www.technologijos.lt]
A whole industry is needed for that. With add on called Ruta 701 the same model became first OCR computer. It means that capabilities are suitable for routing.
Now all you need is routing and mask production for lithography of first post-apocalyptic chip.

Simple... chuckle
Anonymous Coward
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Iceland
11/17/2012 10:07 AM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
building computers barn-size has been the plan, methinks;
where is all the gold going?

macro-processing chip boards?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Belgium
11/17/2012 11:10 AM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
First of all you'll be extremely happy if you'll be able to build a simple transistor if SHTF situation wipes out all chips.
Then there would be a problem for a simple calculator, needless to say anything about a computer.

Chemicals, rare metals, vacuum pumps and chambers, silicon (which is like glass), cutting equipment. There is not only rock or suitable sand finding is invovled, extracting, and refining to a pure suitable form is needed.

All electronics now use lead free soldering. The problem with it, it corrodes without lead (approx. 7 years for failure).
Electronics has a limited life-span. The last modern computer goes out, you'll have to forget modern chips for a long time. Placing and routing millions of components without a computer is hardly possible. You'll need first computer for routing purposes.

Pure transistor computers were improved to the limit at the end of their era, so technologies would be suitable from that time. I have no data about production requirements for foreign computers, only Lithuanian.
1968 year, transistor computer "Ruta 110", needed 410km of wires, 16000 transistors and diodes.
[link to www.technologijos.lt]
A whole industry is needed for that. With add on called Ruta 701 the same model became first OCR computer. It means that capabilities are suitable for routing.
Now all you need is routing and mask production for lithography of first post-apocalyptic chip.

Simple... chuckle
 Quoting: EMPerror

Hehe. Sounds funny. :)

But we'll have time on our hands, you know.
The Egyptians were building their Great Pyramid for twenty years, it sees.

The labyrinth at Hawara of which Patrick Geryl is speaking needed - according to him - no less than 365 years to be built...

So you see you have to think long term.

I suppose I could more adequate arguments if I knew more specifically about the technical side of computer components.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 27889481
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11/17/2012 01:20 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
First of all you'll be extremely happy if you'll be able to build a simple transistor if SHTF situation wipes out all chips.
Then there would be a problem for a simple calculator, needless to say anything about a computer.

Chemicals, rare metals, vacuum pumps and chambers, silicon (which is like glass), cutting equipment. There is not only rock or suitable sand finding is invovled, extracting, and refining to a pure suitable form is needed.

All electronics now use lead free soldering. The problem with it, it corrodes without lead (approx. 7 years for failure).
Electronics has a limited life-span. The last modern computer goes out, you'll have to forget modern chips for a long time. Placing and routing millions of components without a computer is hardly possible. You'll need first computer for routing purposes.

Pure transistor computers were improved to the limit at the end of their era, so technologies would be suitable from that time. I have no data about production requirements for foreign computers, only Lithuanian.
1968 year, transistor computer "Ruta 110", needed 410km of wires, 16000 transistors and diodes.
[link to www.technologijos.lt]
A whole industry is needed for that. With add on called Ruta 701 the same model became first OCR computer. It means that capabilities are suitable for routing.
Now all you need is routing and mask production for lithography of first post-apocalyptic chip.

Simple... chuckle
 Quoting: EMPerror

Hehe. Sounds funny. :)

But we'll have time on our hands, you know.
The Egyptians were building their Great Pyramid for twenty years, it sees.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27889481

It SEEMS

*sigh*
AmericanJedi

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11/17/2012 01:25 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
I keep slide rules and books with tables like the CRC. Commonsense, ain't all that common. What good is a computer? Learn to raise food, carpentry, and metal working skills, much better skills if said shit hits the rotors.
(GLP aka American Jedi)

Listen here you beautiful bitch, I'm about to fuck you up with some truth.
Kenny Powers

If you steal the dreams of others long enough, sooner or later you'll end up in a nightmare.
American Jedi

Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.
Albert Einstein

Satis Eloquentiae, Sapientiae Parum....

"The last of the old?"

"No, the first of the new."
EMPerror

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Lithuania
11/17/2012 05:00 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
Seriously, try to build a transistor these days. All materials are available, even all the equipment that can do that. A lot of labs sell their old equipment with a big discount. It doesn't matter what price it will cost for 1 transistor and that you can buy 1000s of them for a few $. It is a serious task just to make one now without anything. After apocalypse it gets a lot harder to do that.

First things first. Preservation of knowledge. To make electronics you'll need to pass from stone age to bronze and iron age literally. It doesn't matter if you have space age equipment that is working for the moment, you'll need the capability to build and renew it. Without it, stone age will come really soon. It takes time to gather people for building and for improving, engineering things. During that time knowledge may be lost or even whole generation can change. That's the sad reality.

Books, that is reliable and proven way to preserve knowledge. Got some of them for free as libraries here were being reformed and surplus old books were given away for free. Mainly these were books containing technologies and engineering of the old era. It did look as a sad thing, but technologies move forward and some things get obsolete. Despite age, there are really interesting things you won't find in new books and fundamental things that did not change.
It is only for the worst case scenario. These books will have an enemy moisture, and worst of all, various fanatics eager to burn them all. It did happen on numerous occasions. It is likely to happen after apocalypse too.

The best way is that supplies for both electronics and manufacturing equipment are kept shielded from EMP. There are ways on the internet how to do it. Wrapping in foil is a joke or only for emergency when nothing better is available. Metal container is a much better way.
Computers with all their data are needed. CAD software for all things is essential. Even today with huge population, we have problems with a lack of programmers. After apocalypse it may take ages just get to the software to the level that is today. Engineering CAD software is extremely valuable.
There were on the internet 20 DVD's containing a lot of scientific knowledge like "Great Science Textbooks DVD Library 2007". I'm not sure about copyrights, but similar collections appear and disappear.
Printers with supplies may be extremely handy as long as only several PC's may remain working and they will surely fail with time.

Problem with shielding (including underground structures) is that it can make you visible on the radar and likely target, so there are ways to go around it. Stealth is needed.
chuckle

Computer basics, how to build it.
It can be understood almost by anyone, and only when you get into details, that needs at least college level knowledge.

Knowledge needed (basic):
1. Semiconductor physics. How they are made, what are their properties. Some chemistry too.
2. Electronic components. Transistors, diodes, resistors, capacitors, inductors. For computer you usually need to focus on a transistor which is used as a switch. Electronic oscillator is needed too.
3. NAND, NOR logic schematics using transistors. RS flip-flop including Gated RS flip-flop and others (used for memory, buffers). DRAM basics.
4. Logic mathematics. You must know how to make any logical function using only NAND, NOR elements which can be directly represented by transistors.
5. PCB production.
6. Microchip production.
7. Computational mathematics. How to make all functions using logical elements. FPGA manuals can be useful here. FPGA are microchips that are made only from logic elements. By programming it, you can get whatever you want, including whole processors. That's a good start.
8. CAD software.

That is definitely not all.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 05:35 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
Highly improbable. You'd never a lot of supplies, mostly likely from junk and or canibalizing from previously working computers. Don't think you can just do that because many require different operating voltages, the BIOS on the motherboard wouldn't recognize the peripherals, etc.

What about power? What about tools for fashioning it?

As I think about, a solar powered calculator will do most things that someone would need post-collapse, particularly trigonometry. You have to think, what would use it for versus cost and dedicating effort to create it. Mostly calculations about figuring building rafters need some trig work otherwise it's guesswork.

A lot of trig is needed for ballistics work, say in artillery:
[link to www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk]
If one had this alone, a community could cope with some threats. These are very slow firing weapons for sieges mostly, not to repel as much. Most likely trebuchets in a post-collapse world without gunpowder.

You could make a lot of much more necessary tools that most people don't prep for like a Peavey to move logs.

It's not hard to build a computer today, but it's still quite an effort to download all the drivers to make the system recognize all of the connected parts.
EMPerror

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Lithuania
11/17/2012 08:00 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
User ID: 1110734>

Power is an issue.

All sorts of power inverters can be handy. Their parts will go out with time. Problematic part is electrolytic capacitor. It is a problem for all electronic devices.

Wind, solar power usually needs batteries and inverters. Most batteries have a limited lifespan. Solar panels may be a good solution and even with dead batteries as you can use power during daytime. Solar panels degrade with time, but it takes numerous decades. Wind power may need supplies for mechanical wear, generator failures.

Thermoelectric generator is really good long term solution.
[link to www.kelk.co.jp]

Diesel generator may be a good short term solution or it can be used only when there is a need. If it has enough power it can be used for welding (more power is needed) and other tools.
Fuel can be grown and produced as biodiesel.
[link to www.home-made-biodiesel.com]
[link to www.home-made-biodiesel.com]

Biodiesel can be used for cars and engine compatibility problem for new cars is explained.
[link to www.popularmechanics.com]
This problem is unlikely for a mechanical diesel engine used in generator.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 08:19 PM
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Re: Post-apocalyptic scenario - making your own computer after TS has HTF ?
User ID: 1110734>

Power is an issue.

All sorts of power inverters can be handy. Their parts will go out with time. Problematic part is electrolytic capacitor. It is a problem for all electronic devices.

Wind, solar power usually needs batteries and inverters. Most batteries have a limited lifespan. Solar panels may be a good solution and even with dead batteries as you can use power during daytime. Solar panels degrade with time, but it takes numerous decades. Wind power may need supplies for mechanical wear, generator failures.

Thermoelectric generator is really good long term solution.
[link to www.kelk.co.jp]

Diesel generator may be a good short term solution or it can be used only when there is a need. If it has enough power it can be used for welding (more power is needed) and other tools.
Fuel can be grown and produced as biodiesel.
[link to www.home-made-biodiesel.com]
[link to www.home-made-biodiesel.com]

Biodiesel can be used for cars and engine compatibility problem for new cars is explained.
[link to www.popularmechanics.com]
This problem is unlikely for a mechanical diesel engine used in generator.
 Quoting: EMPerror

Talk to me here about it, so we stay on topic:
Thread: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF

I disagree with you about thermoelectric as a long term solution from a carrying capacity restraint.

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