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money is not debt

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21926154
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11/17/2012 12:44 PM
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money is not debt
When you watch these "money is debt" documentaries, they start by giving you the terrible news that-

Money is debt! Dun dun dunnnnn!

Then... like ten minutes later they tell you.

"And the banks always loan out money at interest. So there will always be more debt then there is money."

Hmmm....

So... if money is debt. How can there be more debt than money? That is like saying there is more debt than debt. Or more money than money.

No. Money is an imaginary commodity. An account of which is maintained by official organizations.

Our banking system TIES the creation and destruction of this money to loans. Why? So the money will circulate.

And then they charge interest because they are evil and insane.

But telling people that money is debt is evil. If I owe you a turnip, you don't have money and I don't have money. If a bank ledger somewhere says I own ten dollars of money, THEN I own money.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/17/2012 12:48 PM
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Re: money is not debt
some of you might be thinking...

... why is this jackass posting about money while wwIII is starting?

Because if society falls apart, you will need to understand money to rebuild any semblance of civilization.

Look up the English Tally system. An amazingly successful system of money was made using sticks. Could be useful in the near future.
Instant Karma
For now we see through a glass, darkly

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11/17/2012 12:59 PM

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Re: money is not debt
There will always be more debt than there is money to pay it back because banks create the principle, not the interest when they make a loan. So the interest has to be paid back with future debt. That creates an exponential increase in debt over time until the interest burden collapses the economy. That's the stage we're close to now. It also creates perpetual inflation as the debt balloon has to keep expanding to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

debt-saturation

Last Edited by Instant Karma on 11/17/2012 01:03 PM
Dollar Deception: How Banks Secretly Create Money:

[link to www.webofdebt.com]

mobius-gears
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:07 PM
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Re: money is not debt
fiat money (international bank) is debt
it says right on it for all debts public and private.
so even after they tell you its debt you still dont believe


all the answers are in the bible and i will prove my point from this moment on answering every question with a scripture.

"And the banks always loan out money at interest. So there will always be more debt then there is money."
answer; 3rd grade material

johnny if i print 5 dollar bills and there are only 5 dollar bills in existence, yet i charge you 1 dollar interest, then where do you get the 6 dollars to pay me back ?

Johnny; I dont

Teacher; well then johnny i will have to take your property as colateral, thank you for the free home.

the interest on the dollars in circulation is the national debt, that is where the DEBT comes from. yes the money keeps circulating accumulating interest, but the debt is an unlawful one, read the constitution; congress has no authority to coin anything but gold/silver as currency.
any law that violates the constitution in null and void upon its inception.
so the banksters print so called money at about 7 cents for every dollar,twenty,hundred bill, not a bad profit huh, to include the interest.
now ask yourself, why isnt the treasury printing its own money interest free ?
everyone talks about the debt, but to who? china ? for what ? we have already gave them our manufacturing, our jobs, our real estate, what more could we possibly owe ?
and if we owe so much, why do we keep giving all our money away to other countries in the name of " humanitarian efforts" first we give them billions, then we bomb them, then we rebuild them. its a joke, all the money is transferred overseas and looted by the same so called "authorities" PLEASE WAKE UP
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:09 PM
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Re: money is not debt
to prove my biblical scripture point

why did jesus turn the moneychangers tables
he said how dare you turn my fathers house into a house of usury

jesus was asked; should we pay to ceasar taxes
jesus asked for a coin, said whos inscription is this
it was ceasars
jesus said give to ceasar what is his
in other words give all the debt money back, and dont use it anymore, let the users go broke.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:12 PM
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Re: money is not debt
stupid post..so if you get a mortgage for 500k, do you think a truck rolls up with the money to the bank and its held there until you pay it back? or a credit card has 10,000 of you cash in a room? Its backed by nothing and continually gets "printed" via key stroke every second
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:14 PM
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Re: money is not debt
...

now ask yourself, why isnt the treasury printing its own money interest free ?
everyone talks about the debt, but to who? china ? for what ? we have already gave them our manufacturing, our jobs, our real estate, what more could we possibly owe ?
and if we owe so much, why do we keep giving all our money away to other countries in the name of " humanitarian efforts" first we give them billions, then we bomb them, then we rebuild them. its a joke, all the money is transferred overseas and looted by the same so called "authorities" PLEASE WAKE UP
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27932416


Good post. The debt is the current and future allocation of resources. It is doled out by the full spectrum of psychological conditions. from abject good to abject evil.

One thing, however, all "authorities" have in common is narcissistic personality disorder. All the takers in this world know it, and by taking it they feel they are "helping" the "helpers".

Read up on "the rich man goes to india"
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
11/17/2012 01:14 PM
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Re: money is not debt
CANT EAT SILVER!
TheMacaroni

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11/17/2012 01:18 PM
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Re: money is not debt
OP is right.Money is an account of services.The problem is the money changers who are willing to sell their own children to another country for these services that have not occurred.Leaving everyone to believe the only way up is criminal.There is no debt because how could America owe America.The only debt owed is stolen money that the criminals have and identifying these crooks is getting easier with each passing day.The crooks will be the ones with all the stolen money that is owed to America.hiding
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/17/2012 01:19 PM
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Re: money is not debt
There will always be more debt than there is money to pay it back because banks create the principle, not the interest when they make a loan. So the interest has to be paid back with future debt. That creates an exponential increase in debt over time until the interest burden collapses the economy. That's the stage we're close to now. It also creates perpetual inflation as the debt balloon has to keep expanding to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

:debt-saturation:
 Quoting: Instant Karma



You've said it very well, but I don't think that OP WANTS to understand.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/17/2012 01:19 PM
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Re: money is not debt
There will always be more debt than there is money to pay it back because banks create the principle, not the interest when they make a loan. So the interest has to be paid back with future debt. That creates an exponential increase in debt over time until the interest burden collapses the economy. That's the stage we're close to now. It also creates perpetual inflation as the debt balloon has to keep expanding to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

:debt-saturation:
 Quoting: Instant Karma


I agree...

that's why in my post I said that it was evil and insane for banks to charge interest

Did anyone read my post? I was just stating that it is confusing to people to say that money = debt

Obviously, a lot of you guys are confused.

Think of this. A bank loans out a million dollars to Johnny. This is the only million dollars in existence.

Johnny trades the million dollars to Joey.

Johnny dies.

The bank writes off the debt.

Joey still has a million dollars.

A dollar of money is not a dollar of debt.

Only in our system debt is tied. To money.

You can have debt-free FIAT money if you wanted to!
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:21 PM
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Re: money is not debt
there is a pyramid on the back of the dollar for a reason

the whole system is a pyramid scheme, the reason the top is off is because once the wealth reached the top, they ran with it.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:27 PM
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Re: money is not debt
There will always be more debt than there is money to pay it back because banks create the principle, not the interest when they make a loan. So the interest has to be paid back with future debt. That creates an exponential increase in debt over time until the interest burden collapses the economy. That's the stage we're close to now. It also creates perpetual inflation as the debt balloon has to keep expanding to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

:debt-saturation:
 Quoting: Instant Karma


I agree...

that's why in my post I said that it was evil and insane for banks to charge interest

Did anyone read my post? I was just stating that it is confusing to people to say that money = debt

Obviously, a lot of you guys are confused.

Think of this. A bank loans out a million dollars to Johnny. This is the only million dollars in existence.

Johnny trades the million dollars to Joey.

Johnny dies.

The bank writes off the debt.

Joey still has a million dollars.

A dollar of money is not a dollar of debt.

Only in our system debt is tied. To money.

You can have debt-free FIAT money if you wanted to!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154



We Don't have a debt-free fiat money. Every dollar of USD in circulation is borrowed from the Fed and we pay interest on it.
IF the govt decided to take back control of the money, and the Treasury would print fiat money, AND spend it into circulation, then I would don, in the words of Sam Walton, a hula skirt and hula down wall street.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 01:31 PM
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Re: money is not debt
CANT EAT SILVER!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6188491


The contrapositive to that sarcastic platitude should read:

In a world ... umph, cough, upmrum... MOVIE ANNOUNCER VOICE:

"In a modern secular world, where even shiny things no longer impress obese people: Don't base your currency on something your people do not have. The Spanish took all the silver and gold from the USA. Look what it got them..."
getit

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11/17/2012 01:33 PM
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Re: money is not debt
The interest collected over everyone's lifetime should be prorated to how many years you were a citizen and immediately refunded to every citizen of this country.

If no one worked for it then it should be free. I'll take my refund in gold thank you.
banana2
Instant Karma
For now we see through a glass, darkly

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11/17/2012 03:24 PM

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Re: money is not debt
There will always be more debt than there is money to pay it back because banks create the principle, not the interest when they make a loan. So the interest has to be paid back with future debt. That creates an exponential increase in debt over time until the interest burden collapses the economy. That's the stage we're close to now. It also creates perpetual inflation as the debt balloon has to keep expanding to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

debt-saturation
 Quoting: Instant Karma


I agree...

that's why in my post I said that it was evil and insane for banks to charge interest

Did anyone read my post? I was just stating that it is confusing to people to say that money = debt

Obviously, a lot of you guys are confused.

Think of this. A bank loans out a million dollars to Johnny. This is the only million dollars in existence.

Johnny trades the million dollars to Joey.

Johnny dies.

The bank writes off the debt.

Joey still has a million dollars.

A dollar of money is not a dollar of debt.

Only in our system debt is tied. To money.

You can have debt-free FIAT money if you wanted to!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


The principle disappears from the money supply when it is paid back. Banks don't keep the principle, just the interest. That's why they can lose money when a loan goes into default before they've collected enough interest to cover it. They have to make good on the missing principle to balance their books. So in your example the million dollars is subtracted from the bank's reserves and so it is removed from the money supply.

At the highest level, the Federal Reserve bank creates money out of thin air and loans it at interest to the US Treasury. They don't have to worry about default since it's covered by the taxpayer. Even if it's not paid back they lose nothing since it came from nothing. Just the lower level banks have to balance their books.

Last Edited by Instant Karma on 11/17/2012 03:31 PM
Dollar Deception: How Banks Secretly Create Money:

[link to www.webofdebt.com]

mobius-gears
Apollo
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Romania
11/17/2012 03:27 PM
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Re: money is not debt
When you watch these "money is debt" documentaries, they start by giving you the terrible news that-

Money is debt! Dun dun dunnnnn!

Then... like ten minutes later they tell you.

"And the banks always loan out money at interest. So there will always be more debt then there is money."

Hmmm....

So... if money is debt. How can there be more debt than money? That is like saying there is more debt than debt. Or more money than money.

No. Money is an imaginary commodity. An account of which is maintained by official organizations.

Our banking system TIES the creation and destruction of this money to loans. Why? So the money will circulate.

And then they charge interest because they are evil and insane.

But telling people that money is debt is evil. If I owe you a turnip, you don't have money and I don't have money. If a bank ledger somewhere says I own ten dollars of money, THEN I own money.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


Yes they are right
money is debt
money creates money
debt creates more debt
if you take a loan from a bank of 400000$ and you use that money to buy a house for you
you must pay 1million $ in 30 years
2.5 times more
so they gave you 400000$ you must give them 1 million $
do you understand?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21926154
United States
11/17/2012 03:34 PM
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Re: money is not debt
There will always be more debt than there is money to pay it back because banks create the principle, not the interest when they make a loan. So the interest has to be paid back with future debt. That creates an exponential increase in debt over time until the interest burden collapses the economy. That's the stage we're close to now. It also creates perpetual inflation as the debt balloon has to keep expanding to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

:debt-saturation:
 Quoting: Instant Karma


I agree...

that's why in my post I said that it was evil and insane for banks to charge interest

Did anyone read my post? I was just stating that it is confusing to people to say that money = debt

Obviously, a lot of you guys are confused.

Think of this. A bank loans out a million dollars to Johnny. This is the only million dollars in existence.

Johnny trades the million dollars to Joey.

Johnny dies.

The bank writes off the debt.

Joey still has a million dollars.

A dollar of money is not a dollar of debt.

Only in our system debt is tied. To money.

You can have debt-free FIAT money if you wanted to!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


The principle disappears from the money supply when it is paid back. Banks don't keep the principle, just the interest. That's why they can lose money when a loan goes into default before they've collected enough interest to cover it. They have to make good on the missing principle to balance their books. So in your example the million dollars is subtracted from the bank's reserves and so it is removed from the money supply.

At the highest level, the Federal Reserve bank creates money out of thin air and loans it at interest to the US Treasury. They don't have to worry about default since it's covered by the taxpayer. Even if it's not paid back they lose nothing since it came from nothing. Just the lower level banks have to balance their books.
 Quoting: Instant Karma


yes you are right. But Joey still owns money. That is my whole point. Joey has money, but that money is not owed to anyone. Why? Because money is not debt. Money is money. And debt is debt. To different concepts. Our monetary system just happens to tie the creation of money to loans. It doesn't have to.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/17/2012 03:36 PM
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Re: money is not debt
(I posted this in another thread already)

If we were on the gold standard.

You would have a 'bill'.

It would say,

"This bill is worth

(1) (pound) of (gold)"

As you can see, this bill has three pieces of information-

1. Quantity - 1
2. Unit - pound
3. Commodity - gold

If we were on a silver standard, you might have a bill that says,

"This bill is worth

(5) (ounces) of (silver)"

1. Quantity - 5
2. Unit - ounce
3. Commodity - silver

Right now in America, we have bills that should say,

"This is worth

(10) (dollars) of (money)"

1. Quantity - 10
2. Unit - dollar
3. Commodity - money

As you can see, the 'dollar' is a unit.

And 'money' is the commodity.

Thing is, even though it is a bill for a commodity called 'money', you can't go to a bank and redeem a dollar bill for 'money'.

Why? Because it is imaginary.



To understand this, think about two trekkies arguing over whether Vulcans can fly.

One says they can. The other says they can't.

The two settle the argument by going and getting the OFFICIAL, AUTHORIZED STAR TREK ALMANAC. On page 55 it says, "Vulcans cannot fly." The two trekkies are satisfied.

Now, even though the entire star trek universe is 'imaginary,' there is AN AUTHORIZED OFFICIAL ACCOUNT that they agree to abide by.


This is how our banking system now works. As long as there is AN AUTHORIZED, OFFICIAL ACCOUNT of who owns all of the 'money,' and how much there is, we all agree to abide by it.


So... when you think of 'money', visualize it as a vault somewhere, filled with a glowing green substance. When you use your debit card, or exchange a dollar bill, you are exchanging ownership of some of this 'money'. This is the only way to have money make 'sense'. Because a word without something you can visualize to go with it, is what we call 'nonsense'.
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2012 03:39 PM
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Re: money is not debt
OP = tard
Horus
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11/19/2012 07:54 AM
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Re: money is not debt
who?

money is not debt.
dept is not money.
someone got rich
by selling us debt.
Real list

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11/19/2012 08:12 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Banks charge interest, they also pay interest. The difference is their profit. That profit is paid to employees, overhead costs and stockholders. Those groups of people spend their wages back into the economy.

It's not all that compiicated.
Anonymous Coward
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Netherlands
11/19/2012 08:18 AM
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Re: money is not debt
...because it is too strange to not get help.

Specialy when they dont look at a problem but at an order ?

So we all going to die but not like others want ?
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 08:20 AM
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Re: money is not debt
I have lots of Gold & Silver. Money is Gold and Silver, I have ZERO DEBT.

Fiat currency, however is debt based.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 08:21 AM
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Re: money is not debt
look. debt is debt.

you can trade debt contracts. People trade bonds. People trade debt instruments all the time.


Do we trade debt? Sure. Is a dollar bill a debt instrument?

YES!

But a debt of what?

A debt to pay back ownership of...

MONEY

So MONEY is not DEBT

If we were on a gold standard, and the banks loaned out gold notes... but you had to pay them back with interest...

would gold = debt?

No. Gold is the commodity backing the currency. It is the thing that is owed.

In our society we trade debt instruments. But the thing being owed is "money".

Look. I love zeitgeist as much as the next guy. I love all these guys yelling that debt is money. It sounds great. But don't just believe what you are told. Believe what makes sense.

Isn't that the whole point of being a 'conspiracy theorist'?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 08:22 AM
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Re: money is not debt
I have lots of Gold & Silver. Money is Gold and Silver, I have ZERO DEBT.

Fiat currency, however is debt based.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1072087


Any commodity backed currency is 'debt based'

If you hold a gold-note, then the bank 'owes you that much gold'
Real list

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11/19/2012 08:24 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Many people claim it is wrong to charge interest on loaned money. Yet they have no problem with charging interest (rent) to 'borrow' a dvd. We use the dvd, then take it back, what are we paying for?

We lease cars. We use them, return them when the lease is up, why do we have to pay anything?

How are these examples different than renting money?

Here's an example. If I have $100,000 I could invest in gold which will undoubtable increse in value, or lend it to you without interest, I make nothing and you have potential to make a profit with my money. Does that make sense?
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
11/19/2012 08:28 AM
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Re: money is not debt
I have lots of Gold & Silver. Money is Gold and Silver, I have ZERO DEBT.

Fiat currency, however is debt based.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1072087


Any commodity backed currency is 'debt based'

If you hold a gold-note, then the bank 'owes you that much gold'
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


the bank only holds the gold because most ppl cbf lugging around all that gold all day.

the bank doesnt 'owe' you the gold as you put it in their as a demand deposit for you to claim it at any giving time.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 08:30 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Many people claim it is wrong to charge interest on loaned money. Yet they have no problem with charging interest (rent) to 'borrow' a dvd. We use the dvd, then take it back, what are we paying for?

We lease cars. We use them, return them when the lease is up, why do we have to pay anything?

How are these examples different than renting money?

Here's an example. If I have $100,000 I could invest in gold which will undoubtable increse in value, or lend it to you without interest, I make nothing and you have potential to make a profit with my money. Does that make sense?
 Quoting: Real list


Yes that makes sense.

I personally have no problem with 'usury'

Has very little to do with the point of my thread though.
ChipModerator
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11/19/2012 08:33 AM

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Re: money is not debt
When you watch these "money is debt" documentaries, they start by giving you the terrible news that-

Money is debt! Dun dun dunnnnn!

Then... like ten minutes later they tell you.

"And the banks always loan out money at interest. So there will always be more debt then there is money."

Hmmm....

So... if money is debt. How can there be more debt than money? That is like saying there is more debt than debt. Or more money than money.

No. Money is an imaginary commodity. An account of which is maintained by official organizations.

Our banking system TIES the creation and destruction of this money to loans. Why? So the money will circulate.

And then they charge interest because they are evil and insane.

But telling people that money is debt is evil. If I owe you a turnip, you don't have money and I don't have money. If a bank ledger somewhere says I own ten dollars of money, THEN I own money.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


Try not to think OP! You're not very good at it.

brian-morans
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ~Arthur C. Clarke

Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain

He's a nut-bag! Just because the fucker's got a library card doesn't make him Yoda ~David Mills ~ Se7en!

every-citizen
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 08:40 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Many people claim it is wrong to charge interest on loaned money. Yet they have no problem with charging interest (rent) to 'borrow' a dvd. We use the dvd, then take it back, what are we paying for?

We lease cars. We use them, return them when the lease is up, why do we have to pay anything?

How are these examples different than renting money?

Here's an example. If I have $100,000 I could invest in gold which will undoubtable increse in value, or lend it to you without interest, I make nothing and you have potential to make a profit with my money. Does that make sense?
 Quoting: Real list


Yes that makes sense.

I personally have no problem with 'usury'

Has very little to do with the point of my thread though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


The reason I believe it is insane for the Fed to charge interest is because they create the base money supply. That is kinda nuts.

But usury for a small bank, or an investor, only makes sense.

IMO