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money is not debt

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 08:45 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Money is suppose to represent the value of produce be it goods or services. However, the value of 'future' produce is built into our money system.... debt. When the value of 'future' produce becomes so astronomical it can't be reasonably matched through labor, shit hits the fan.
Real list

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11/19/2012 08:48 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Many people claim it is wrong to charge interest on loaned money. Yet they have no problem with charging interest (rent) to 'borrow' a dvd. We use the dvd, then take it back, what are we paying for?

We lease cars. We use them, return them when the lease is up, why do we have to pay anything?

How are these examples different than renting money?

Here's an example. If I have $100,000 I could invest in gold which will undoubtable increse in value, or lend it to you without interest, I make nothing and you have potential to make a profit with my money. Does that make sense?
 Quoting: Real list


Yes that makes sense.

I personally have no problem with 'usury'

Has very little to do with the point of my thread though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


The reason I believe it is insane for the Fed to charge interest is because they create the base money supply. That is kinda nuts.

But usury for a small bank, or an investor, only makes sense.

IMO
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


I was responding to what you said in the OP which was

Our banking system TIES the creation and destruction of this money to loans. Why? So the money will circulate.

And then they charge interest because they are evil and insane.


Now, if our treasury was printing and issuing the money I would agree that they should not charge interest. But unfortunately the federal reserve is neither federal or a reserve, but a consortium of private banks.

Last Edited by Real list on 11/19/2012 08:50 AM
Real list

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11/19/2012 08:50 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Money is suppose to represent the value of produce be it goods or services. However, the value of 'future' produce is built into our money system.... debt. When the value of 'future' produce becomes so astronomical it can't be reasonably matched through labor, shit hits the fan.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25953791


I agree. The inverse is also true, when the money supply is much greater than the amount of goods/services available we see inflations, devaluation of the money.
Dr.DoomLittle

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11/19/2012 08:53 AM
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Re: money is not debt
When you watch these "money is debt" documentaries, they start by giving you the terrible news that-

Money is debt! Dun dun dunnnnn!

Then... like ten minutes later they tell you.

"And the banks always loan out money at interest. So there will always be more debt then there is money."

Hmmm....

So... if money is debt. How can there be more debt than money? That is like saying there is more debt than debt. Or more money than money.

No. Money is an imaginary commodity. An account of which is maintained by official organizations.

Our banking system TIES the creation and destruction of this money to loans. Why? So the money will circulate.

And then they charge interest because they are evil and insane.

But telling people that money is debt is evil. If I owe you a turnip, you don't have money and I don't have money. If a bank ledger somewhere says I own ten dollars of money, THEN I own money.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154



Loans are debt. A contract. Willing borrower, and the federal reserve. Money is created as a debt owed by the US gov to the federal reserve. So money is debt. The IOU's (dollars) are circulated throughout the world and they are all US gov debt notes at the core; as they are circulated individual and corporate debt exists at a tier below this original government debt to the Federal Reserve.


The only way hyperinflation can occur is top-down; via dictatorship.
Real list

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11/19/2012 08:53 AM
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Re: money is not debt
If the money supply was printed and issued by a real federal agency they would or could charge interest as another way to disguise a tax.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 08:54 AM
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Re: money is not debt
(I posted this in another thread already)

If we were on the gold standard.

You would have a 'bill'.

It would say,

"This bill is worth

(1) (pound) of (gold)"

As you can see, this bill has three pieces of information-

1. Quantity - 1
2. Unit - pound
3. Commodity - gold

If we were on a silver standard, you might have a bill that says,

"This bill is worth

(5) (ounces) of (silver)"

1. Quantity - 5
2. Unit - ounce
3. Commodity - silver

Right now in America, we have bills that should say,

"This is worth

(10) (dollars) of (money)"

1. Quantity - 10
2. Unit - dollar
3. Commodity - money

As you can see, the 'dollar' is a unit.

And 'money' is the commodity.

Thing is, even though it is a bill for a commodity called 'money', you can't go to a bank and redeem a dollar bill for 'money'.

Why? Because it is imaginary.



To understand this, think about two trekkies arguing over whether Vulcans can fly.

One says they can. The other says they can't.

The two settle the argument by going and getting the OFFICIAL, AUTHORIZED STAR TREK ALMANAC. On page 55 it says, "Vulcans cannot fly." The two trekkies are satisfied.

Now, even though the entire star trek universe is 'imaginary,' there is AN AUTHORIZED OFFICIAL ACCOUNT that they agree to abide by.


This is how our banking system now works. As long as there is AN AUTHORIZED, OFFICIAL ACCOUNT of who owns all of the 'money,' and how much there is, we all agree to abide by it.


So... when you think of 'money', visualize it as a vault somewhere, filled with a glowing green substance. When you use your debit card, or exchange a dollar bill, you are exchanging ownership of some of this 'money'. This is the only way to have money make 'sense'. Because a word without something you can visualize to go with it, is what we call 'nonsense'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


That was awesome
Dr.DoomLittle

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11/19/2012 08:56 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Money is suppose to represent the value of produce be it goods or services. However, the value of 'future' produce is built into our money system.... debt. When the value of 'future' produce becomes so astronomical it can't be reasonably matched through labor, shit hits the fan.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25953791


The concept of debt and leveraging against future production was never intended to be the fundamental basis of economics; now it is the norm; and as an elitist agenda; keynsian economics results in top down dictatorship, and therefore exploitation and captured governments.

This has a plot of the bankers since at least the 1800's.

On record.

So, yes, our country was sold out by those who \"LED" many years ago.

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 11/19/2012 08:57 AM
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 08:58 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Op, you need to stop.

The law of the land in this nation is this:

CONGRESS has the power to coin money and set the value there of.

The FED, by law, cannot coin money.

Money is defined, in the law of the land as "gold or silver coin at face value" at a certain weight and purity.

There are other forms of currency (what people will accept as a payment of debt) but it is not payment, only discharge.

Discharge just means the debt is placed somewhere else, not paid.

Your post(s) also ignore fractional reserve lending.

Fractional reserve lending is NOT usury, it is the multiplication of negatives. Meaning the BANK can take 100 dollars of DEBT and create a loan of 100 dollars, while still claiming, on paper, that is has the original 100 in its account.

Even though the ORIGINAL 100 dollars was never really there, it was just a PROMISE to pay 100 dollars by someone.

The entire Central banking system is DEBT plus interest.

Usury would mean the Lender actually had 100 dollars (in some commodity, in the case of money, it would have to be Gold or silver coin at face value to be "lawful money").

The charging of interest would mean the borrower would have to pay back the loan in specie (gold or silver coin of face value, plus some extra specie for the loan).

You clearly do not get it, in the current system, paper is DEBT, fractionalized, plus interest.
Dr.DoomLittle

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11/19/2012 09:04 AM
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Re: money is not debt
(I posted this in another thread already)

If we were on the gold standard.

You would have a 'bill'.

It would say,

"This bill is worth

(1) (pound) of (gold)"

As you can see, this bill has three pieces of information-

1. Quantity - 1
2. Unit - pound
3. Commodity - gold

If we were on a silver standard, you might have a bill that says,

"This bill is worth

(5) (ounces) of (silver)"

1. Quantity - 5
2. Unit - ounce
3. Commodity - silver

Right now in America, we have bills that should say,

"This is worth

(10) (dollars) of (money)"

1. Quantity - 10
2. Unit - dollar
3. Commodity - money

As you can see, the 'dollar' is a unit.

And 'money' is the commodity.

Thing is, even though it is a bill for a commodity called 'money', you can't go to a bank and redeem a dollar bill for 'money'.

Why? Because it is imaginary.



To understand this, think about two trekkies arguing over whether Vulcans can fly.

One says they can. The other says they can't.

The two settle the argument by going and getting the OFFICIAL, AUTHORIZED STAR TREK ALMANAC. On page 55 it says, "Vulcans cannot fly." The two trekkies are satisfied.

Now, even though the entire star trek universe is 'imaginary,' there is AN AUTHORIZED OFFICIAL ACCOUNT that they agree to abide by.


This is how our banking system now works. As long as there is AN AUTHORIZED, OFFICIAL ACCOUNT of who owns all of the 'money,' and how much there is, we all agree to abide by it.


So... when you think of 'money', visualize it as a vault somewhere, filled with a glowing green substance. When you use your debit card, or exchange a dollar bill, you are exchanging ownership of some of this 'money'. This is the only way to have money make 'sense'. Because a word without something you can visualize to go with it, is what we call 'nonsense'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


spock

Interesting point; this is a reference to the ordainment to REGULATE the money supply, and to regulate its identity after monetary creation.

But money is still debt. It originated from the federal reserve in the form of a loan; then it expanded through the private/public sector but it is still debt because the original identity of the source capital (that is debt) did not change.

You cannot "create" money (work, spec, loans, etc) using federal reserve notes, then create money from that and then suddenly call it chinese yuan, or say that it is a thing suddenly of value, not debt. It is still a debt owed to the federal reserve. Think about that a minute.

Cool scam, eh?

The US gov borrows from the federal reserve; banks borrow by digital entry. And money is created by banks and the population at large through loans; but it is still federal reserve debt.

My point is: ANYONE can create money. But it is the federal reserve currency PARADIGM that is the basis and orgin of the original capital USED to create the NEW money... and THAT money determines the paradigm that the NEW money exists under...

Money is debt.



Fundanmentaly The source of the money is always the Federal Reserve, and it is always in the form of a loan. There money is and will always be, circulated debt. Anything that bred from a fox, must still be a fox. Other forms of monetary creation; banks; loans, although they didnt exist before, still must be sourced by the federal reserve bank. Why? Because the original capital that crated the new capital were federal reserve notes.

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 11/19/2012 09:24 AM
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 09:24 AM
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Re: money is not debt
There are general definitions and specific definitions.

"Money" can be anything generally speaking.

Just like "medicine" can be anything generally speaking.

However, the LAW of the United States dating back to the founding documents and for 1000s of years that "lawful money" is gold and silver coin, or other metal like copper.

PAPER, without any redemption possible in a defined metal, weight and purity is ONLY "money" when someone is stupid enough to accept it as money.
Dr.DoomLittle

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11/19/2012 09:25 AM
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Re: money is not debt
There are general definitions and specific definitions.

"Money" can be anything generally speaking.

Just like "medicine" can be anything generally speaking.

However, the LAW of the United States dating back to the founding documents and for 1000s of years that "lawful money" is gold and silver coin, or other metal like copper.

PAPER, without any redemption possible in a defined metal, weight and purity is ONLY "money" when someone is stupid enough to accept it as money.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20901334


I AGREE; Because technically, under the federal reserve system; everything you think you own you do not, because the source of the capital that bought the things you own were federal reserve notes. People do not know this.

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 11/19/2012 09:34 AM
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 09:32 AM
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Re: money is not debt
There are general definitions and specific definitions.

"Money" can be anything generally speaking.

Just like "medicine" can be anything generally speaking.

However, the LAW of the United States dating back to the founding documents and for 1000s of years that "lawful money" is gold and silver coin, or other metal like copper.

PAPER, without any redemption possible in a defined metal, weight and purity is ONLY "money" when someone is stupid enough to accept it as money.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20901334


I AGREE; Because technically, under the federal reserve system; everything you think you own you do not, because the source of the capital that bought the things you own were federal reserve notes. People do not know this.
 Quoting: Dr.DoomLittle


I agree with your posts as well. All goods and services born of Federal Reserve 'money' are pledged to the Creditor in the form of a lien.

"Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy. From: [link to www.treasury.gov]
Dr.DoomLittle

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11/19/2012 09:34 AM
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Re: money is not debt
There are general definitions and specific definitions.

"Money" can be anything generally speaking.

Just like "medicine" can be anything generally speaking.

However, the LAW of the United States dating back to the founding documents and for 1000s of years that "lawful money" is gold and silver coin, or other metal like copper.

PAPER, without any redemption possible in a defined metal, weight and purity is ONLY "money" when someone is stupid enough to accept it as money.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20901334


I AGREE; Because technically, under the federal reserve system; everything you think you own you do not, because the source of the capital that bought the things you own were federal reserve notes. People do not know this.
 Quoting: Dr.DoomLittle


I agree with your posts as well. All goods and services born of Federal Reserve 'money' are pledged to the Creditor in the form of a lien.

"Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy. From: [link to www.treasury.gov]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20901334


The bankers really do OWN us. The currency PARADIGM is screwed up and the federal reserve system will not survive, if ever confronted, or if the fed tries to ACT or claim that they "own" everything; therefore, the system itself is "voidable". Remember: the Fed is a private corporation.

There is a real loophole here with the attribution of making newly created money into federal reserve notes; this particular aspect of society is FAULTY; and destined for an inevitable collapse. It is a fallacy in our concept of money; and the ordaiment of claims 'after the fact'; or after you create new money.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 10:03 AM
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Re: money is not debt
The thing is... I understand every single thing you guys are saying. I have a decent understanding of the Federal Reserve and Fiat money vs. the Gold standard. And I agree with what you are saying.

And I know that if I look in a financial dictionary, it will NOT say that money is an imaginary commodity.

I know that.

And I understand that you CAN define 'money' as debt, and that this is a good way to understand money.

I agree with that, and I understand why you would choose to do that.

I simply found that after literally... LITERALLY! Yeeeaaars of studying finances and economics, and even talking to some bankers who I am related to... I could not visualize the concepts effectively.

I spent a great deal of time convinced that gold was the best definition for the word 'money'

Then I spent a great deal of time convinced that 'hours of human labor' was the best definition

Then I spent a lot of time convinced that 'debt' was the best definition.

But for a multitude of reasons, I found that this mind-set still often left me confused at exactly who had what.

However, when I took the word 'money' and made my own definition- the one I gave, it made it much easier for me to understand the financial system. And in addition, alternative monetary systems.

Monetary systems where 'fiat money' can be created without tying it to debt.

And this last bit is what made me decide to use my own definition and try to promote it. Because if you rigorously adhere to the idea that money is debt, then how can you even start to look at alternative monetary systems?

So, while I know you guys have assumed that I was just running my mouth. I assure you I have put years of thought into this concept. And while I understand that I do not have the credibility or authority to back this idea, I still felt obligated to share my ideas and garner constructive feedback. Take the idea as you choose.

Jon J.
getit

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11/19/2012 10:07 AM
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Re: money is not debt
Banks charge interest, they also pay interest. The difference is their profit. That profit is paid to employees, overhead costs and stockholders. Those groups of people spend their wages back into the economy.

It's not all that compiicated.
 Quoting: Real list


Stockholders of what,? the money machine?
If no one works for the new money created then the interest charged on it should be returned and not levied against the people because no one worked for that new money.
If banks and their employees want to charge for a service then the free market should decide what their wages should be.
If it costs is too much well then there is always minimum wage workers looking for work and China.
Right now their wages are determined by how much they decide to debase our currency (steal our labor) plus whatever interest rate they like.
In a nutshell no one worked for the national debt,the monetary system is a scam.
redface
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 11:08 AM
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Re: money is not debt
The thing is... I understand every single thing you guys are saying. I have a decent understanding of the Federal Reserve and Fiat money vs. the Gold standard. And I agree with what you are saying.

And I know that if I look in a financial dictionary, it will NOT say that money is an imaginary commodity.

I know that.

And I understand that you CAN define 'money' as debt, and that this is a good way to understand money.

I agree with that, and I understand why you would choose to do that.

I simply found that after literally... LITERALLY! Yeeeaaars of studying finances and economics, and even talking to some bankers who I am related to... I could not visualize the concepts effectively.

I spent a great deal of time convinced that gold was the best definition for the word 'money'

Then I spent a great deal of time convinced that 'hours of human labor' was the best definition

Then I spent a lot of time convinced that 'debt' was the best definition.

But for a multitude of reasons, I found that this mind-set still often left me confused at exactly who had what.

However, when I took the word 'money' and made my own definition- the one I gave, it made it much easier for me to understand the financial system. And in addition, alternative monetary systems.

Monetary systems where 'fiat money' can be created without tying it to debt.

And this last bit is what made me decide to use my own definition and try to promote it. Because if you rigorously adhere to the idea that money is debt, then how can you even start to look at alternative monetary systems?

So, while I know you guys have assumed that I was just running my mouth. I assure you I have put years of thought into this concept. And while I understand that I do not have the credibility or authority to back this idea, I still felt obligated to share my ideas and garner constructive feedback. Take the idea as you choose.

Jon J.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


Thank you Jon J. There is lawful money available , by United States Federal Statute, it is limited to 300 million dollars.

All coins and paper currency issued by the US Treasury ARE lawful money and backed, at face value by Gold Coin.

12 USC 411 (Title 12 is the Federal Reserve ACT of congress)
holds the answer.

Thread: Pay No Taxes legally -End the FED -synopsis page 8-Why are waiting for someone to do it for us like Ron paul

"Demand is made for lawful money per 12 USC 411."

That thread opened my eyes to the truth behind the lies of Federal Reserve 'MONEY' SCAM.
Real list

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11/19/2012 03:01 PM
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Re: money is not debt
Banks charge interest, they also pay interest. The difference is their profit. That profit is paid to employees, overhead costs and stockholders. Those groups of people spend their wages back into the economy.

It's not all that compiicated.
 Quoting: Real list


Stockholders of what,? the money machine?
If no one works for the new money created then the interest charged on it should be returned and not levied against the people because no one worked for that new money.
If banks and their employees want to charge for a service then the free market should decide what their wages should be.
If it costs is too much well then there is always minimum wage workers looking for work and China.
Right now their wages are determined by how much they decide to debase our currency (steal our labor) plus whatever interest rate they like.
In a nutshell no one worked for the national debt,the monetary system is a scam.
redface
 Quoting: getit


There are no stockholders of the federal reserve. So I must be referring to private market banks. PNC bank for instance has stock holders who own shares of stock. When you have a savings account at a credit union the principle is referred to as 'shares'. you are part owner of that CU. Investors don't decide how much profit they want, they get a share of whatever profit is generated.

Bank employess are tellers, janitors, computer techs and maybe others. They are paid an hourly wage which is not determined by the bank's profit.

Look, if banks could just print money at will, why do they need customers? They could just print and spend.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 03:42 PM
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Re: money is not debt
Banks charge interest, they also pay interest. The difference is their profit. That profit is paid to employees, overhead costs and stockholders. Those groups of people spend their wages back into the economy.

It's not all that compiicated.
 Quoting: Real list


Stockholders of what,? the money machine?
If no one works for the new money created then the interest charged on it should be returned and not levied against the people because no one worked for that new money.
If banks and their employees want to charge for a service then the free market should decide what their wages should be.
If it costs is too much well then there is always minimum wage workers looking for work and China.
Right now their wages are determined by how much they decide to debase our currency (steal our labor) plus whatever interest rate they like.
In a nutshell no one worked for the national debt,the monetary system is a scam.
redface
 Quoting: getit


There are no stockholders of the federal reserve. So I must be referring to private market banks. PNC bank for instance has stock holders who own shares of stock. When you have a savings account at a credit union the principle is referred to as 'shares'. you are part owner of that CU. Investors don't decide how much profit they want, they get a share of whatever profit is generated.

Bank employess are tellers, janitors, computer techs and maybe others. They are paid an hourly wage which is not determined by the bank's profit.

Look, if banks could just print money at will, why do they need customers? They could just print and spend.
 Quoting: Real list


Stock holders? You might want to think of "note" holders. Since anyone holding or doing business with Federal Reserve Notes are, in legal terms, bankers.

They cannot 'print money at will' the banks can, however, fractionalize reserves (deposits and loan amounts).

It is, in fact, not the BANK creating money, it is the public who endorses and allows this to happen.

Every dollar created must have someone backing it with labor, goods and services, that is the ENDORSER.

Like any Corporation, stock holders (endorsers promising their labors, goods and services) are only part owners with limited rights. It is those at the top who retain the most rights and protections.

Demand lawful money per 12 USC 411 and it takes YOU out of their system, it is redemption from it.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 03:45 PM
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Re: money is not debt
The Federal reserve and member banks can enter trillions into their own accounts, but without someone, somewhere, backing it up via endorsement, it would just sit in accounts and do nothing.

Do not blame others for what YOU are doing, stop endorsing their credit via demand for lawful money per 12 USC 411.

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 03:50 PM
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Re: money is not debt
The Federal Reserve cannot create currency without endorsement.

Either CONGRESS has to approve every dollar via BONDS issued (based on the US Citizens paying it back, of course, not them).

OR YOU endorse (bond) yourself to it with personal loans, and endorsement of every single bank deposit.

This is why CONGRESS had to approve the "bailouts" of the Banks and GM etc.

Someone has to promise to repay every dollar with goods and services.

You think CONGRESS has that kind of credit without 300 million ignorant US Citizens to back up their promises?

please.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 03:51 PM
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Re: money is not debt
OP I think you might be a moron bwahahahahaha!! This is clear, money should be created without interest tied to it and not to be paid back; this is obvious. The money should be created only in proportion to production, and with no stipulations to pay back the creator of the money and with no interest tied to it. This would eliminate financial field completely, gone! Of course OP if you believe there should be rulers of this earth who rule over the masses then the creation on money with interest tied to it with pay back required of the interest and the principle then you would have an argument. So really the argument is if the human race should have rulers that rule over the masses or not, and I assume your stance is such rulers should exist.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2012 06:10 PM
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Re: money is not debt
Thread title should be "Lawful money, issued by the US Treasury is NOT debt."

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