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Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?

 
Jack Kinsella
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11/20/2012 06:04 AM
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Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
According to Bible prophecy, the antichrist builds his government on three main pillars of power; a global government, a global economy and a global religious system. All three must exist and be functioning prior to his arrival on the scene, since his time frame is limited to just 2,520 days.

The prophet Daniel says that the antichrist will be a prince of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary; "...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary..." (Daniel 9:26)

That was accomplished by the Roman legions under the command of Titus in AD 70.

Daniel says this coming Roman 'prince' will confirm a seven-year covenant between Israel and 'many' that results an a period of peace and safety for the Jews of Israel.

Two things to note about this covenant. First, note the context. This is about Israel's future. Not about the antichrist. In this context, he is a supporting player, not the object of the prophecy.

The fact the antichrist confirms a covenant 'with many' would be irrelevant if Israel were not the other principal to this covenant. An agreement in which Israel plays any lesser role cannot be Daniel's covenant.

The second thing to note is that this covenant must already exist in some form. One cannot 'confirm' that which does not exist. This is not a newly-negotiated covenant cooked up by the antichrist to include Israel among the many.

It is a confirmation of a previously existing agreement. There is but one failed seven-year agreement involving Israel, the revived Roman empire and 'many'.

That is the Oslo agreement, initially negotiated to run exactly seven years, negotiated between the State of Israel and Yasser Arafat on behalf of the Palestinian 'people' under the supervision of the Europeans.

The Oslo formula of 'land for peace' remains the foundation upon which any future agreement will be built. Every effort since has built on the efforts of Oslo.

Once Daniel's covenant is confirmed, Temple worship will be restored, which requires Israel to somehow recover possession of Temple Mount. We know that it must be restored because mid-way through the Tribulation Period, the antichrist suspends Temple worship.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Any covenant negotiated with Israel that does not leave Israel in possession of Temple Mount and provides for the restoration of Temple worship is NOT the covenant of Daniel 9:27.

How can I say so with such confidence? Because the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is the one that starts the clock ticking.

From the signing of that confirmation of the covenant until the return of Christ at Armageddon is 2,520 literal days. If that covenant were already in place, then the antichrist would already be in power.

Except that at some point before he could BE the antichrist, he must first recover from a deadly head wound.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." (Revelation 13:3)

It is AFTER his deadly wound is healed, that John says;

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

So, the antichrist, having been healed from a deadly wound, is acclaimed by the whole world for this apparent miracle. John says that, AFTER this takes place;

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Let's stop there and summarize. First, the covenant, confirmed by a prince of Rome. Then the head wound. Then he is acclaimed as worthy of worship as a god.

Then he is given power to mesmerize the population with a supernaturally gifted 'mouth speaking great things and blasphemies' -- and this power lasts for forty-two months (1,260 days or 3 1/2 years).

This is the first half of the Tribulation Period. If the antichrist were active and if we were now in the Tribulation, all this would already be in motion. None of it is as yet.

But let's pretend that we're in the Tribulation now. That means that within the next 1,260 days, a functioning global government capable of ordering mass executions for political purposes must be fully in power.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Notice this power isn't given him over just Europeans. Or just over the nations around the Mediterranean.

It is over ALL 'kindreds' (families) tongues (languages) and nations (ethnicities)

Anybody care to guess what the word translated into English as 'all' means in the original Greek? (Give up? Ok. It means, 'all').

That power is, after forty-two months, fully developed and operational. Then, the second beast takes his place onstage.

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." (Revelation 13:11) This second beast is a counterfeit prophet, one who has the appearance of Christianity, but who openly teaches the worship of the first beast (the antichrist).

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

This second beast will be Satanically energized with supernatural powers. "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, "(Revelation 13:12-13)

Now, I want to stop here again. We are just now at the mid-point of the Tribulation -- it started 3 1/2 years ago with the confirmation of the covenant with Israel and the healing of the first beast's deadly wound.

What must also exist by this point?

Obviously, a global religious system, since there is a global religious leader with the power to condemn apostates to death. So if the Tribulation were to begin tomorrow, say, then within the next 42 months, a new system would have to replace both Christianity and Judaism.

According to the Bible, the persecution of Christians and Jews would be global, bloody and with the enthusiastic cooperation of the global population.

Like most of you, I can see all that coming. But it isn't here.

The third pillar in the antichrist's government is a global economy that is tied to both the global religious system and the global government. All three are administered by the same overall authority.

All three must not only exist, but they must be fully operational within three and one half years of the covenant that restores Temple worship to Israel.

Because three and one half years after Israel's Temple worship is restored, it must then be taken away, signaling the onset of the "Great Tribulation" in which three quarters of mankind die from the plagues and judgments that fall upon an unrepentant human race.

There are some Christians who believe we are already in the early part of the Tribulation Period now and that the current head of the EU/WEU, Javier Solana, is the antichrist.

For that to be true, then, Israel must be in a period of peace and safety right now.

The covenant must be in full force, the Jews of Israel must be in possession of the Temple Mount and the Jewish priests must now be offering legitimate sacrifices to God in a ritually cleansed Temple.

That means the ashes of a pure red heifer must already have been found and sprinkled to cleanse the Holy of Holies after two millennia of desecration.

Within the next forty-two months, the false prophet must convince everybody on earth except the Jews to worship the beast.

By the mid-point of the Tribulation, the global economy will be tied to a mark in the right hand or forehead without which no man could buy or sell.

So within 1260 days, all cash transactions must cease to exist.

Within forty-two months, all Christians and Jews the world over will be hunted down and ultimately executed if they refuse to take the Mark of the Beast.

Problem: Even with Satan's enthusiastic cooperation, there isn't enough time. You can't get there from here.

The covenant has not been confirmed and Israel is not living in peace and safety. Temple worship has not been restored and al-Aqsa remains standing atop the Holy of Holies.

There is no functioning global religion. There is no functioning global religious authority. As long as there are Christians and Jews, there can NEVER be a universally acceptable global religious authority.

The global economy is outside of any one nation's control, let alone the control of one man. Cash makes global control impossible. And a universal currency would take a lot longer than 42 months from now to implement.

That is not to say that the Rapture couldn't take place tomorrow. The Rapture of the Church is an event INDEPENDENT of the Tribulation Period. They are not 'bookends'.

The Rapture is the conclusion of the Age of Grace. It is when Jesus comes to retrieve His Bride from the earth. The Tribulation is the resumption of the Final Week of the Law. They are as separate as distinct as Pentecost is from the Destruction of the Temple forty years later.

Since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church, when the Bride is retrieved, His earthly ministry concludes, just as Jesus' earthly ministry concluded at the Ascension.

Temple worship didn't cease on the day the Church Age began -- it continued another forty years before Titus.

The Rapture of the Church could take place tomorrow and the Tribulation Period could still be a decade or more into the future. Maybe two decades. However long it takes. The two are independent events.

That is why we, as Christians, are not charged with watching for the antichrist. We are given details concerning the coming of antichrist because, if we can hear his approaching footsteps, we can know that the time of our deliverance is even closer.

The signs of the times were given for the lost -- the saved don't need them -- except as witnessing tools.

The Tribulation period is close. No doubt about it. What does it mean to the Church? It means the Rapture is closer.

"And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh," Jesus said. (Luke 21:28)

At the beginning. Not at the end.
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 06:06 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Trust me.

When it starts you'll know.

I thought It started back during the BP oil spill. But now I think when it starts It will be absolutely noticeable.
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 06:11 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
It is known as the years of trouble, tribulation, and it is already started. We're about at the point where things go real wrong real fast.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the rapture as that is exactly as it is written, a state of mind, not a phyical removal.
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 06:35 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Waiting for the Rapture is hardly a waste of time; in fact, those who "long for his appearing" get a "crown of righteousness". What Bride does not eagerly keep watching for her Groom? What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 06:39 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Waiting for the Rapture is hardly a waste of time; in fact, those who "long for his appearing" get a "crown of righteousness". What Bride does not eagerly keep watching for her Groom? What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You've not yet figured out why the foolish, lukewarm, brides, who forget the oil for their lamps to see, are always them other people?
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 06:44 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Waiting for the Rapture is hardly a waste of time; in fact, those who "long for his appearing" get a "crown of righteousness". What Bride does not eagerly keep watching for her Groom? What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You've not yet figured out why the foolish, lukewarm, brides, who forget the oil for their lamps to see, are always them other people?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21656968


What?

Bridesmaids are not the Bride; she is already in the wedding hall and can't be excluded from her own wedding.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Surr

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11/20/2012 06:47 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
"Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?"

Nope that's made up bullshit, get real sheep.
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 06:48 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Waiting for the Rapture is hardly a waste of time; in fact, those who "long for his appearing" get a "crown of righteousness". What Bride does not eagerly keep watching for her Groom? What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You've not yet figured out why the foolish, lukewarm, brides, who forget the oil for their lamps to see, are always them other people?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21656968


I believe that even if your wrong you will be included in the Rapture because your a believer.
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 07:00 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Waiting for the Rapture is hardly a waste of time; in fact, those who "long for his appearing" get a "crown of righteousness". What Bride does not eagerly keep watching for her Groom? What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You've not yet figured out why the foolish, lukewarm, brides, who forget the oil for their lamps to see, are always them other people?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21656968


I believe that even if your wrong you will be included in the Rapture because your a believer.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11061563


I believe in the pre-trib Rapture, so again I'm puzzled.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Pappion
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11/20/2012 07:38 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
If you believe in the Rapture and there isn't one or it's later, you may be fooled by the man of sin. If you don't believe in one or a later one, you'll be on your guard and on your toes.
ceawaves

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11/20/2012 07:40 AM

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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
No doubt in my mind..we are..
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 07:43 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
If you believe in the Rapture and there isn't one or it's later, you may be fooled by the man of sin. If you don't believe in one or a later one, you'll be on your guard and on your toes.
 Quoting: Pappion 1880435


That fallacy is called "non-sequitur"... "it doesn't follow".

I will not be fooled, don't worry. And I've been "on my guard" for a very long time.

One thing I've noticed in years of debates on these things is that the anti-pre-trib people seem to be the least willing to admit they might be wrong. They think they're playing it safe by presuming the worst, even though that means looking for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They are supremely confident in their preparedness, cocky even, boasting about how they alone will stand strong through what Jesus called "a time of trouble never seen before and will never be seen again".

So you have a caution of your own to be concerned about.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 07:45 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
just my opinion, these are the good old days, it gets worse from here.
ceawaves

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11/20/2012 07:55 AM

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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
If you believe in the Rapture and there isn't one or it's later, you may be fooled by the man of sin. If you don't believe in one or a later one, you'll be on your guard and on your toes.
 Quoting: Pappion 1880435


That fallacy is called "non-sequitur"... "it doesn't follow".

I will not be fooled, don't worry. And I've been "on my guard" for a very long time.

One thing I've noticed in years of debates on these things is that the anti-pre-trib people seem to be the least willing to admit they might be wrong. They think they're playing it safe by presuming the worst, even though that means looking for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They are supremely confident in their preparedness, cocky even, boasting about how they alone will stand strong through what Jesus called "a time of trouble never seen before and will never be seen again".

So you have a caution of your own to be concerned about.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


See it the opposite.. as the ones who believe in a rapture are not aware of the times we're in because they're still here..And leaves a lot of church people in the dark, so to speak. The rapture out part only started up in the last 100 or so years ago.
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 07:58 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
You see here brother the paradox? There are two camps, one that believes that we are raptured out of the way before the evil one becomes the abomination of desolation; and there is another camp that believes it happens later in the time line.

How did this happen?

Many many rezins, mainly because there are things that choke the Word and make it unfruitful. One of these being in the world and of the world. Worldly, carnal, being born of the Spirit is the key. For neither shall they say Lo here, or Lo there; for behold, the kingdom is within you.

So when you see these things come to pass, lift your head up high; for your redemption draweth nigh.

And for those doubters, Thomas; feel Him; and boast not thy self against the natural branches, it thou art grafter in, whom were wild by nature; for God is also able to graft them in again. For anyone that calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 07:58 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
If you believe in the Rapture and there isn't one or it's later, you may be fooled by the man of sin. If you don't believe in one or a later one, you'll be on your guard and on your toes.
 Quoting: Pappion 1880435


That fallacy is called "non-sequitur"... "it doesn't follow".

I will not be fooled, don't worry. And I've been "on my guard" for a very long time.

One thing I've noticed in years of debates on these things is that the anti-pre-trib people seem to be the least willing to admit they might be wrong. They think they're playing it safe by presuming the worst, even though that means looking for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They are supremely confident in their preparedness, cocky even, boasting about how they alone will stand strong through what Jesus called "a time of trouble never seen before and will never be seen again".

So you have a caution of your own to be concerned about.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Kinda contradicts the whole pre-rapture theory.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 08:03 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
REVELATION 12:11

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 08:15 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
See it the opposite.. as the ones who believe in a rapture are not aware of the times we're in because they're still here..And leaves a lot of church people in the dark, so to speak. The rapture out part only started up in the last 100 or so years ago.
 Quoting: ceawaves

Who says "the ones who believe in a rapture are not aware of the times we're in"? We of all people are VERY aware of the times we're in. You seem to be pulling "facts" about us from thin air. You don't know what we believe, much less why. And NO, the "rapture out part" did NOT start up in the last 100 years; that's another "fact" pulled out of a hat.

Here is a list of many scholarly articles on the topic, for anyone who is willing to actually find out what we believe and why: [link to www.raptureme.com]

Kinda contradicts the whole pre-rapture theory.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28100552

What contradiction to the pre-trib Rapture? You think it's the word "saints"? Do you people EVER read what pre-tribbers actually say? If you had, you'd know that 'saints' is NOT an exclusive term for church-age believers.

The topic here is whether or not we're in the Tribulation, not why you hate the pre-trib Rapture.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 08:37 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
can you say ...no.
ceawaves

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11/20/2012 08:40 AM

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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
See it the opposite.. as the ones who believe in a rapture are not aware of the times we're in because they're still here..And leaves a lot of church people in the dark, so to speak. The rapture out part only started up in the last 100 or so years ago.
 Quoting: ceawaves

Who says "the ones who believe in a rapture are not aware of the times we're in"? We of all people are VERY aware of the times we're in. You seem to be pulling "facts" about us from thin air. You don't know what we believe, much less why. And NO, the "rapture out part" did NOT start up in the last 100 years; that's another "fact" pulled out of a hat.

Here is a list of many scholarly articles on the topic, for anyone who is willing to actually find out what we believe and why: [link to www.raptureme.com]

Kinda contradicts the whole pre-rapture theory.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28100552

What contradiction to the pre-trib Rapture? You think it's the word "saints"? Do you people EVER read what pre-tribbers actually say? If you had, you'd know that 'saints' is NOT an exclusive term for church-age believers.

The topic here is whether or not we're in the Tribulation, not why you hate the pre-trib Rapture.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


So why didn't you answer the question???
What I meant was it was not a widely held belief until the last 100 or more years. What pre-tribbers actually say? What does the Bible actually say?
There's nothing about any Rapture in scripture..And unlike yourself I'm not the one basing a whole beleif on one word. Also there's no hate on or for the "pre-trib Rapture" belief. Actually it's much easier (imo) to believe in the Rapture. Just don't see any real firm or clear foundation actually based on it.
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 08:44 AM
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So why didn't you answer the question???
 Quoting: ceawaves

I DID answer it, in my first comment: "What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already."

What I meant was it was not a widely held belief until the last 100 or more years. What pre-tribbers actually say? What does the Bible actually say?
There's nothing about any Rapture in scripture..And unlike yourself I'm not the one basing a whole beleif on one word. Also there's no hate on or for the "pre-trib Rapture" belief. Actually it's much easier (imo) to believe in the Rapture. Just don't see any real firm or clear foundation actually based on it.
 Quoting: ceawaves

Not true, and if you don't care what pre-tribbers actually say, then STOP spreading lies about them!

We pre-tribbers ONLY get our belief from the Bible. Yes, it's in there; see the link I gave earlier. And since you can't be bothered to read what I believe, you have no right to claim that I "base my whole belief on one word". This double standard of yours is making it impossible to discuss the topic rationally.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 08:46 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
yes we are... I believe we are already half way through and going into what the bible calls the GREAT tribulation when all the REALLY bad stuff starts happening. If you want to know more about this take on bible prophecy, check this guy out here:

[link to www.cybertribenetwork.com]
mk ultra
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11/20/2012 08:48 AM
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It is known as the years of trouble, tribulation, and it is already started. We're about at the point where things go real wrong real fast.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the rapture as that is exactly as it is written, a state of mind, not a phyical removal.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21656968


basically things are about to speed up. for those who are ready spiritually it will be a smooth sail, for those who have not done the spiritual preparing life is about to get really bad and you will see people acting and behaving in ways never before thought imaginable.

had the election turned out different, we may have had a few more years of rolling along at the same pace, but it is quite clear things are about to get really bad for a lot of people that have no idea what's coming.

Its all good if your heart is in the right place, though, nothing can destroy a pure heart.
ceawaves

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11/20/2012 09:09 AM

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So why didn't you answer the question???
 Quoting: ceawaves

I DID answer it, in my first comment: "What is going on in the world is "birth pangs", but the "birth" (the 7-year treaty) has not happened yet, so we are not in the Tribulation already."

What I meant was it was not a widely held belief until the last 100 or more years. What pre-tribbers actually say? What does the Bible actually say?
There's nothing about any Rapture in scripture..And unlike yourself I'm not the one basing a whole beleif on one word. Also there's no hate on or for the "pre-trib Rapture" belief. Actually it's much easier (imo) to believe in the Rapture. Just don't see any real firm or clear foundation actually based on it.
 Quoting: ceawaves

Not true, and if you don't care what pre-tribbers actually say, then STOP spreading lies about them!

We pre-tribbers ONLY get our belief from the Bible. Yes, it's in there; see the link I gave earlier. And since you can't be bothered to read what I believe, you have no right to claim that I "base my whole belief on one word". This double standard of yours is making it impossible to discuss the topic rationally.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Double standard? What?
You're the one who appears to be making it impossible to disuses the topic in a ration manner, you're the one being so defensive, not me..
And am i clear on this? I have no right to claim you base your whole belief on one word.. but you already based and claimed my belief (which you don't even know) on a word that i never even used????.. you assume way to much..I checked the link you posted appears to be one man's rambling thoughts. Where is it? in the Bible? Have an online Bible will be no problem looking up verses.
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 09:12 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Sir Isaac Newton, one of the smartest men to ever live on earth and the inverter of calculus, calculated that the Battle of Armageddon cannot take place until at least (but perhaps later than) the year 2060. His prediction is held under lock and key in Israel.
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11/20/2012 09:15 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Sir Isaac Newton, one of the smartest men to ever live on earth and the inverter of calculus, calculated that the Battle of Armageddon cannot take place until at least (but perhaps later than) the year 2060. His prediction is held under lock and key in Israel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1212477


Just because he was "smart" at science doesn't mean his calculations were accurate.
Keep2theCode

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11/20/2012 09:18 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Double standard bolded:
What I meant was it was not a widely held belief until the last 100 or more years. What pre-tribbers actually say? What does the Bible actually say?
There's nothing about any Rapture in scripture..And unlike yourself I'm not the one basing a whole beleif on one word. Also there's no hate on or for the "pre-trib Rapture" belief. Actually it's much easier (imo) to believe in the Rapture. Just don't see any real firm or clear foundation actually based on it.
 Quoting: ceawaves

But perhaps a better description would be "false accusation".

You're the one who appears to be making it impossible to disuses the topic in a ration manner, you're the one being so defensive, not me..
 Quoting: ceawaves

When one is attacked, one has a right to defend.

And am i clear on this? I have no right to claim you base your whole belief on one word.. but you already based and claimed my belief (which you don't even know) on a word that i never even used????.. you assume way to much..I checked the link you posted appears to be one man's rambling thoughts. Where is it? in the Bible? Have an online Bible will be no problem looking up verses.
 Quoting: ceawaves

What word did you not use that I allegedly said your whole belief was based on?

YOU assume way too much.

Rambling thoughts? You didn't even read one of them, did you. They contain MANY Bible references too.

I offered that link to provide the scholarly, deep analysis that so many people accuse us of lacking for our position. I don't do proof-texts or lift things from context, so if you want just a verse or two, don't expect that from me.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 09:33 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Pre trib rapture is a false teaching.
Mi'Kmaq

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11/20/2012 09:41 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
According to Bible prophecy, the antichrist builds his government on three main pillars of power; a global government, a global economy and a global religious system. All three must exist and be functioning prior to his arrival on the scene, since his time frame is limited to just 2,520 days.

The prophet Daniel says that the antichrist will be a prince of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary; "...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary..." (Daniel 9:26)

That was accomplished by the Roman legions under the command of Titus in AD 70.

Daniel says this coming Roman 'prince' will confirm a seven-year covenant between Israel and 'many' that results an a period of peace and safety for the Jews of Israel.

Two things to note about this covenant. First, note the context. This is about Israel's future. Not about the antichrist. In this context, he is a supporting player, not the object of the prophecy.

The fact the antichrist confirms a covenant 'with many' would be irrelevant if Israel were not the other principal to this covenant. An agreement in which Israel plays any lesser role cannot be Daniel's covenant.

The second thing to note is that this covenant must already exist in some form. One cannot 'confirm' that which does not exist. This is not a newly-negotiated covenant cooked up by the antichrist to include Israel among the many.

It is a confirmation of a previously existing agreement. There is but one failed seven-year agreement involving Israel, the revived Roman empire and 'many'.

That is the Oslo agreement, initially negotiated to run exactly seven years, negotiated between the State of Israel and Yasser Arafat on behalf of the Palestinian 'people' under the supervision of the Europeans.

The Oslo formula of 'land for peace' remains the foundation upon which any future agreement will be built. Every effort since has built on the efforts of Oslo.

Once Daniel's covenant is confirmed, Temple worship will be restored, which requires Israel to somehow recover possession of Temple Mount. We know that it must be restored because mid-way through the Tribulation Period, the antichrist suspends Temple worship.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Any covenant negotiated with Israel that does not leave Israel in possession of Temple Mount and provides for the restoration of Temple worship is NOT the covenant of Daniel 9:27.

How can I say so with such confidence? Because the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is the one that starts the clock ticking.

From the signing of that confirmation of the covenant until the return of Christ at Armageddon is 2,520 literal days. If that covenant were already in place, then the antichrist would already be in power.

Except that at some point before he could BE the antichrist, he must first recover from a deadly head wound.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." (Revelation 13:3)

It is AFTER his deadly wound is healed, that John says;

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

So, the antichrist, having been healed from a deadly wound, is acclaimed by the whole world for this apparent miracle. John says that, AFTER this takes place;

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Let's stop there and summarize. First, the covenant, confirmed by a prince of Rome. Then the head wound. Then he is acclaimed as worthy of worship as a god.

Then he is given power to mesmerize the population with a supernaturally gifted 'mouth speaking great things and blasphemies' -- and this power lasts for forty-two months (1,260 days or 3 1/2 years).

This is the first half of the Tribulation Period. If the antichrist were active and if we were now in the Tribulation, all this would already be in motion. None of it is as yet.

But let's pretend that we're in the Tribulation now. That means that within the next 1,260 days, a functioning global government capable of ordering mass executions for political purposes must be fully in power.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Notice this power isn't given him over just Europeans. Or just over the nations around the Mediterranean.

It is over ALL 'kindreds' (families) tongues (languages) and nations (ethnicities)

Anybody care to guess what the word translated into English as 'all' means in the original Greek? (Give up? Ok. It means, 'all').

That power is, after forty-two months, fully developed and operational. Then, the second beast takes his place onstage.

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." (Revelation 13:11) This second beast is a counterfeit prophet, one who has the appearance of Christianity, but who openly teaches the worship of the first beast (the antichrist).

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

This second beast will be Satanically energized with supernatural powers. "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, "(Revelation 13:12-13)

Now, I want to stop here again. We are just now at the mid-point of the Tribulation -- it started 3 1/2 years ago with the confirmation of the covenant with Israel and the healing of the first beast's deadly wound.

What must also exist by this point?

Obviously, a global religious system, since there is a global religious leader with the power to condemn apostates to death. So if the Tribulation were to begin tomorrow, say, then within the next 42 months, a new system would have to replace both Christianity and Judaism.

According to the Bible, the persecution of Christians and Jews would be global, bloody and with the enthusiastic cooperation of the global population.

Like most of you, I can see all that coming. But it isn't here.

The third pillar in the antichrist's government is a global economy that is tied to both the global religious system and the global government. All three are administered by the same overall authority.

All three must not only exist, but they must be fully operational within three and one half years of the covenant that restores Temple worship to Israel.

Because three and one half years after Israel's Temple worship is restored, it must then be taken away, signaling the onset of the "Great Tribulation" in which three quarters of mankind die from the plagues and judgments that fall upon an unrepentant human race.

There are some Christians who believe we are already in the early part of the Tribulation Period now and that the current head of the EU/WEU, Javier Solana, is the antichrist.

For that to be true, then, Israel must be in a period of peace and safety right now.

The covenant must be in full force, the Jews of Israel must be in possession of the Temple Mount and the Jewish priests must now be offering legitimate sacrifices to God in a ritually cleansed Temple.

That means the ashes of a pure red heifer must already have been found and sprinkled to cleanse the Holy of Holies after two millennia of desecration.

Within the next forty-two months, the false prophet must convince everybody on earth except the Jews to worship the beast.

By the mid-point of the Tribulation, the global economy will be tied to a mark in the right hand or forehead without which no man could buy or sell.

So within 1260 days, all cash transactions must cease to exist.

Within forty-two months, all Christians and Jews the world over will be hunted down and ultimately executed if they refuse to take the Mark of the Beast.

Problem: Even with Satan's enthusiastic cooperation, there isn't enough time. You can't get there from here.

The covenant has not been confirmed and Israel is not living in peace and safety. Temple worship has not been restored and al-Aqsa remains standing atop the Holy of Holies.

There is no functioning global religion. There is no functioning global religious authority. As long as there are Christians and Jews, there can NEVER be a universally acceptable global religious authority.

The global economy is outside of any one nation's control, let alone the control of one man. Cash makes global control impossible. And a universal currency would take a lot longer than 42 months from now to implement.

That is not to say that the Rapture couldn't take place tomorrow. The Rapture of the Church is an event INDEPENDENT of the Tribulation Period. They are not 'bookends'.

The Rapture is the conclusion of the Age of Grace. It is when Jesus comes to retrieve His Bride from the earth. The Tribulation is the resumption of the Final Week of the Law. They are as separate as distinct as Pentecost is from the Destruction of the Temple forty years later.

Since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church, when the Bride is retrieved, His earthly ministry concludes, just as Jesus' earthly ministry concluded at the Ascension.

Temple worship didn't cease on the day the Church Age began -- it continued another forty years before Titus.

The Rapture of the Church could take place tomorrow and the Tribulation Period could still be a decade or more into the future. Maybe two decades. However long it takes. The two are independent events.

That is why we, as Christians, are not charged with watching for the antichrist. We are given details concerning the coming of antichrist because, if we can hear his approaching footsteps, we can know that the time of our deliverance is even closer.

The signs of the times were given for the lost -- the saved don't need them -- except as witnessing tools.

The Tribulation period is close. No doubt about it. What does it mean to the Church? It means the Rapture is closer.

"And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh," Jesus said. (Luke 21:28)

At the beginning. Not at the end.
 Quoting: Jack Kinsella 21646349


In regards to the 2520 days,is this not the the same as,approx 2520 years ago the first Temple was destroyed by nebucanezer of Babylon?..............................sheep

Last Edited by Mi'Kmaq on 11/20/2012 09:42 AM
Anonymous Coward
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11/20/2012 09:41 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
Pre trib rapture is a false teaching.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26307044


Yes. Agree.

Many will find this out the hard way...
Mi'Kmaq

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11/20/2012 09:50 AM
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Re: Can We Be In the Tribulation Already?
What is known as rapture is not being understood,after the 144,000 are sealed ,those not recieving the seal,will have to get there the hard way. Rev 14:1 First Fruits
Rev 6:9-11
...................................................sheep