THE APOSTLE PAUL WAS NOT A REAL APOSTLE

A rose by any other name ..... Thing is the Holy Spirit taught Paul about things that only applied to the omnes that would be under judgment at the time of tnereturn.
Ac:9:14:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Ac:9:15:
But the Lord said unto him,
Go thy way:
for he is a chosen vessel unto me,
to bear my name before the Gentiles,
and kings, and the children of Israel:
Ac:9:16:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.



He did pass the baptism test and the signs following was something that was part of the gifts the writers had access to.

If Paul could be untruthful then so could any OT Prophet, the instructions for the 'little ones' in Zec:13 are the Gentiles and the instruction is what is used to determine who lives and who goes to the grave.

Yep. And it's been going on since the early days of the church too.

Acts 15:1
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Let's go over this scene for a moment, shall we? Paul is at the forefront on the anti-circumcision side of the issue. Jesus' original Apostles deliberate on the subject and come to the conclusion in the Spirit that gentiles should not be forced to bear anything under the Law their Fathers did not have to bear i.e. adult male circumcision. This edict along with the admonitions to abstain from sexual immorality and the eating of meat that has been sacrificed to idols nor meat that had been strangled and [edit: this ruling] was declared to be shared among all followers. What does Paul, ring leader of the 'you don't need to be circumcised' faction immediately do? He has his destined to be famous traveling companion, Timothy, circumcised. The KJV version even has Paul doing the knife job himself...

WTF?!!! This type of behavior makes no rational sense at all. Not only that, Paul goes on later to preach vehemently through his letters just how wrong getting circumcised is, that we would be dismissing Christ's sacrifice in doing so by seeking to become righteous under the law and casting aside God's grace and so forth. If you ask me all this seems to be quite queer activity and I do not use that term loosely in the vernacular nor in a derogatory fashion. It's an extremely unusual, random, and out of place series of events for a man that is supposedly speaking and acting for God.

Last Edited by Raymantheheretic on 12/14/2012 06:13 PM

He just might have been Apostate, that being said not all his fruits were bad, for instance the quote God is Love is a beautiful idea... he also taught fellowship...

I'm not following your logic here at all though you have brought up some relevant points that need to be examined.

What the Lord tells Ananias in Acts:9 concerning Saul (soon to be known as Paul) is quite significant; "to bear my name" but saying nothing at all about spreading His truth(i.e. gospel) or teachings. One should really pause and think about that at this juncture and also how oddly and singularly Paul's role is re-enforced by the next quote "I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake" with still no mention of His truth or teachings. If you have a red letter KJV Bible handy you'll notice there are only two other times the Lord is quoted in direct reference to Paul/Saul- on the road to Damascus and when the Holy Spirit told him to "speak his mind" after which he was promptly thrown into prison.

You speak of passing a test of baptism (something I have no biblical knowledge of) and Paul having gifts and showing signs yet neglect Jesus teaching that soon after His physical departure there would arise False Apostles performing miraculous works and wondrous signs in His name and in the end He would tell them to get away, I never knew you. Sound familiar?

Yes, the book of Acts records multiple miraculous events associated with Paul but if you look at them all closely they have a strange taint about them. For instance; Peter was imprisoned then released by an angle who simply put everyone to sleep, opened his cell door and quietly escorted him out and away. How does Paul escape prison at one point in this story? Paul begins to sing and a mighty earth quake devastates the area. I could go on but the only way to unveil the truth for yourself is to examine the evidence firsthand setting aside all preconceived notions that Paul was chosen to act and speak in God's stead. Paul most definitely has a role, it's just not the one the vast majority have naturally assumed he has for the last 2000 years.

Does the 'show' part happen in those blind days or is it shown by what happens in the rest of the chapter, along with the plot to kill him and an escape, there is also meeting the Apostles who distrusted him at first but within a short time he was coming and going as he was fully accepted, something like that cannot happen if the Holy Ghost is with all of them.


Perhaps the 'meat' he got in the previous verse was the Gospel (all 4)


Still taking the rest of the chapter the dangers came quite quickly, add in a few shipwrecks and other things and the prophecy did come true within his lifetime. Teaching according to what Jesus taught the Jews before the cross or as taught as far as the end of the blanket vision in Act:10? Peter, James, and a few others have NT texts so they would either agree with each other of not, then compare all of them to what is said in the 4 Gospels. I would consider that as being 'through'.


Do you mean after the 40 days after His resurrection and His 2nd ascension to Heaven? Proof that Thomas got was not available after that 40 days. Demons aren't allowing to teach about God or heal people.


Act:2 was the gift of knowing all languages as well as if you spoke it all your life. The gifts Jesus gave the Apostle before the cross was enough to cast out some demons but not all. That should have carried forward. There does seem to be a slight difference between those who write Scripture and those who read Scripture. I could read it for 100 years and not one of the signs following would be mine to actually do.
To compare writings from Act:10 and on is also changing what the prophecies and events are about. The end of the 70 weeks was 3 1/2 years after the cross and that marked all things to do with the bruise to the heel in Ge:3:15. Even the prophecy of the scattering in De:4:30 is an event that is part of the bruise to the serpents head. The establishment of the 'time of the Gentiles' in Luke:21:24 is establishing that Gentiles are now the ones that are under law, and with law come judgment, that is on the day the 7th trump will sound.


I'm in no rush to get past these first few points, it save time later on actually.


It also say the Holy Spirit will speak for them when before Kings and such, could this just be another example of the Holy Spirit doing events in a unique way each time? What about the time the jail-doors were opened and they stayed because they didn't want the jailer to get into trouble?

Did this chapter get covered enough? The blanket part in Act:10 is part of that same passage. I would think the diet changes hasn't been accepted by Jews even today so why say Christians are having trouble understanding what is written. I'm not sure who Cornelius but he did know something about God but the servants who came to Peter's door were full Gentiles and they got instruction right away, the creation of the 'little ones' in Zec:13.

Last Edited by MHz on 12/14/2012 09:37 PM

That was so he would be accepted by the Jews that did not convert without proof being shown.

As with most of the arguments in your previous post there is almost no biblical basis for making such a statement and quite frankly it seems out of touch with the reality of the situation. The council of purely Jewish original Apostles had just issued a written decree that no such physical proof would be required of gentiles. Should not Jewish converts (or even potential Jewish converts) be made aware of this ruling rather than Timothy being ready to whip out physical proof that is no longer needed? Your claim completely ignores Paul's firm stance on the subject at the time or later when he goes further to evoke severally admonishing arguments against circumcision.

Maybe there is language barrier between us but you seem confused and I honestly can't/wouldn't say if it's sincere or deliberately manufactured. In any case reverting to the tactic of breaking down a seemingly conversational flow into a long list of vague or unanswered bullet points is a sure way to obfuscate the matter. The few references I have touched on are just the tip (no pun intended) of a monumental iceberg for justification that we desperately need to trust Jesus' teaching instead of hanging on to every word dripping from the quill of Paul as if they were direct instructions from God.

Just flip the Paul-is-wholly-a-Holy-man-of-God switch to neutral or better yet off and read the NT for yourself. And once again, pray for guidance to the truth by way of the Holy Spirit. In comparison any argument I could make here to convince you is utterly useless.

Last Edited by Raymantheheretic on 12/15/2012 05:27 AM

Would it be worth my time to go back and see how you handle posts in general. Definition of meat is in the NT, using the one from Genesis or any other place doesn't work. Bye.

1Co:11:28:
But let a man examine himself,
and so let him eat of that bread,
and drink of that cup.
1Co:11:29:
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily,
eateth and drinketh damnation to himself,
not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co:11:30:
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you,
and many sleep.
1Co:11:31:
For if we would judge ourselves,
we should not be judged.
1Co:11:32:
But when we are judged,
we are chastened of the Lord,
that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Co:11:33:
Wherefore,
my brethren,
when ye come together to eat,
tarry one for another.
1Co:11:34:
And if any man hunger,
let him eat at home;
that ye come not together unto condemnation.
And the rest will I set in order when I come.

He wasn´t definitely the Messiah.

Yah bless you, the Lord has shown me this too. The 7 thin blasted ears (itching ears) ate the 7 good healthy ears (ears to hear) and lead to a famine for HEARING the words of the Lord (Jesus Christ) as prophesied by Amos. God sent Benjamite Saul in the NT for the same reason He sent a Benjamite Saul in the OT. Saul means 'asked for' - they asked for the man who told them what they wanted to hear, and rejected the Lord in doing so. Halleluyah, some have ears to hear.

Look at these two doctrines, you CANNOT reconcile what Paul taught with James. Think deeply on this, please.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

When a Christian does a 'good deed' is it so he doesn't have to repent not doing it later or does he just do it because that is what the Bible says Jesus would do in the same circumstance?

Abraham was under the Law that was broken when he did a certain act, law under grace (repenting via prayers of forgiveness)is thinking about something.

M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

If you commit sin with the thought that grace will cover it that is an error in thinking, grace covers sins for the ones called the blessed, the poor in spirit, the meek, and the rest in that list.
A christian is already saved by having belief that the Bible is a true book. There is no extra reward available for somebody so when they choose to help somebody it is with no thought of reward. The ones who sin and repent and then sin again are not covered by grace.
Read the letters to the 7 churches, does it sound like all will be accepted by God or are some not going to be welcomed when judgement arrives? They undergo the chastisement of Hebrews 12 before they are accepted as are the Jews in Matthew 23 accepted as being clean on the same day the Gentiles are being sent for punishment, as in Isa:65 and Re:19.

The Gentiles who call Jesus lord and then do not follow the law will not be alive for the 1,000 years but they will still be around for the new earth verses. That is the difference between 'faith' and 'proof', the same kind that Thomas was demanding. (and got)

Last Edited by MHz on 12/15/2012 07:39 AM

I dunno, u tell me.

I've seen how you handle posts in this thread and that's plenty enough for me not want to hold your hand while walking through the bible so I might understand how you can explain jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

Oh, do you mean the strong "spiritual" meat Paul serves up so we can stand before God as full grown Men and not as children. No thanks, I'll pass. Jesus tells me to come before the Father with the eyes of a child and I'll will try my best to do so. So using the Bible doesn't work. Interesting... Later.

See how easy it is for two to play that game?

Do you see how it gets us nowhere?

Nice outline for the doctrine and ritual of Holy communion. Do you suppose that is what Jesus had in mind?

I'll tell you what I think he had in mind. Mind, these are only the words of a child like man who wishes with all his heart to follow Jesus/Yashua's teachings.

There is no being or thing that exists that was not created by the Father. What we ingest to fuel our physical bodies is innocent of any wrong doing, from lambs to grains of wheat and grapes, they end their physical existence so that we may carry on and evolve. Jesus sacrifice here on earth is the ultimate representation of this process. As far as I can tell, we've been asked to acknowledge this cycle once a week. Not a lot to ask IMHO.

I don't blame Paul for the use of his words as if they were directives from God. I blame us and ask that we stop. Now and forever.

great thread, i wonder how many others have an isse with paul?

2 Peter 3:13-18 KJV
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Yes, it says he was just a brother, not an apostle. His doctrine proves that he did not teach the truth. Paul is a liar.

I didn't know Jesus was a publisher. The fact is salvation according to the gospels is much different than salvation according to Paul. Compare the verses.

so you're saying the bible is wrong and full of lies.

do you have some other book you recommend people read instead?

Beware of the Pharisees!

Christ did not come to preach love.
We live in a world full of goodness and Evil..and love is Evil.

Good can never be Evil but love will make evil look good.

They made Christ a preacher of Love, to make Christ a hypocrite. Paul just drives the love message home.
Paul is like the Catholic Church who pray to the Dead saints and to Jesus who is dead on the cross..

Christ and Him crucified that is all Paul has got.

But did Christ die on a Roman Cross?

There is no prophecy for the Cross...NONE!
There is a prophecy of the slain Pascal Lamb

Christ Died in the temple and then veil was rent.

Lev_1:6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

Mic 3:2 Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
Mic 3:3 Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.



Lev_4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
Lev_4:33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev_14:13 And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:

The so called Last supper is the REAL death of Christ.
The Catholic Church through the teachings of Paul _ the Pharisee, Gave the world the ritual of Communion.
They make the mythical death of Christ horrible but the REAL death pleasant by the ritual of Communion

Christ said do this in remeberence of ME. Not the cross which the Catholic Church enforces.

Psa 22:12 Enemies are all around like a herd of wild bulls. Powerful bulls from Bashan are everywhere.
Psa 22:13 My enemies are like lions roaring and attacking with jaws open wide.
Psa 22:14 I have no more strength than a few drops of water. All my bones are out of joint; my heart is like melted wax.
Psa 22:15 My strength has dried up like a broken clay pot, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You, God, have left me to die in the dirt.
Psa 22:16 Brutal enemies attack me like a pack of dogs, tearing at my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones, and my enemies just stare and sneer at me.
Psa 22:18 They took my clothes and gambled for them.
Psa 22:19 Don't stay far away, LORD! My strength comes from you, so hurry and help.
Psa 22:20 Rescue me from enemy swords and save me from those dogs.
Psa 22:21 Don't let lions eat me. You rescued me from the horns of wild bulls,

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

The Lamb of God.
The temple.
In the Holy Place.

Paul's wrote
The WORD (logos) of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing
Like so many, you accuse Him of blasphemy for what others chose to do (uphold the cross as opposed to the WORD)
The cross isn't foolishness to those who are perishing, the WORD IS.

Mat_16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

He WAS an apostle to those who recieved him as an apostle, Jesus' name. Just as Jesus Christ is SAVIOR and LORD to those who recieve Him as Savior and Lord.

Just as a prophet is a prophet to whoever recieves that one as a prophet.

A brother or a sister is a brother or a sister to whomever recieves them as such.

So, what is your point?

Paul the Pharisee is not only a false apostle but is also a false prophet.

when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

Paul says "We" Not "those"...Paul told people he would be alive at the return of christ.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Get it?