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Democracy doesn't work

 
Double O Zero
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User ID: 10397260
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11/28/2012 08:41 AM
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Democracy doesn't work
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." - Alexis de Tocqueville

As more countries reach this point where voters simply go out there and elect politicians who take from those who have and who worked for their wealth and give to those who don't, but who organize and get their people elected in promise of benefits, I think we should ask if democracy makes sense.

I find it crazy that someone who is willfully and voluntarily dependent upon the government for their sustenance is able to vote with the same standing as those who are funding that government. Such an imbalance can only lead to economic tragedy, and yet this situation worsens not just here in the US but in many places.

With the limitations of the republic having been stricken over the last two hundred years, becoming both corrupted by the money given to the state and campaigns, and the changes in voting from both suffrage acts and making elections more direct, these may have been victories for democracy, but what have they done to America?

The last election is all the proof you need. Whether or not you believe the alternative has any ideas, which history has shown it doesn't, the truth is both demographics and results show a growing majority who will ask for government to care for them, and suggest any attempt to change this at the ballot box is a fool's errand, doomed to fail under the weight of numbers.

Am I wrong?
Real list

User ID: 28633317
United States
11/28/2012 08:52 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
My understanding of the early days of the republic is

Only property owners had the right to vote. Women generally were not permitted to vote, the asumption being their vote would mimic their husbands'. A widow who inherited the family propery at her husband's death had the right to vote.

In modern times a similar situation would be that the right to vote is contingent on paying income tax.

I do agree that those making the rules should have 'skin in the game'
Double O Zero (OP)

User ID: 10397260
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11/28/2012 08:54 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
That would certainly be an improvement. Maybe Heinlein was right in that we would need to look at what citizenship really means, as something more than a birthright based on the accident of location.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28136362
Australia
11/28/2012 09:03 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
Howsabout we all just be citizens of the planet and like... not fight or kill or steal from eachother... sound cool? ... cool. No system.. no worries
omar

User ID: 28470059
United Kingdom
11/28/2012 09:10 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
Democracy has never been practised in any country at any time.
Same goes for Communism.
:spyda:
Money Vote
User ID: 28634381
11/28/2012 09:16 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
Money is the master of the game.

People who has money already have the vote.

There is a ranking in the democracy play too.

The ranking of the stupid.
BioReaper
You're going to lose your soul.

User ID: 28633501
United States
11/28/2012 09:19 AM

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Re: Democracy doesn't work
Yeah it does work. It's the people who mess it up. People blame the government but the truth is, its the people. We don't get the government we deserve. We get the government we let happen.
So much, for the glory of Rome.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 15902416
Finland
11/28/2012 09:27 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
The difference between anarchism and democracy is that when you're about to get raped, in democracy you will be given the option to choose to get it up in your ass or in your mouth.
omar

User ID: 28470059
United Kingdom
11/28/2012 09:31 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
The difference between anarchism and democracy is that when you're about to get raped, in democracy you will be given the option to choose to get it up in your ass or in your mouth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15902416

This^^^
:spyda:
071676

User ID: 26630358
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11/28/2012 09:43 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." - Alexis de Tocqueville

As more countries reach this point where voters simply go out there and elect politicians who take from those who have and who worked for their wealth and give to those who don't, but who organize and get their people elected in promise of benefits, I think we should ask if democracy makes sense.

I find it crazy that someone who is willfully and voluntarily dependent upon the government for their sustenance is able to vote with the same standing as those who are funding that government. Such an imbalance can only lead to economic tragedy, and yet this situation worsens not just here in the US but in many places.

With the limitations of the republic having been stricken over the last two hundred years, becoming both corrupted by the money given to the state and campaigns, and the changes in voting from both suffrage acts and making elections more direct, these may have been victories for democracy, but what have they done to America?

The last election is all the proof you need. Whether or not you believe the alternative has any ideas, which history has shown it doesn't, the truth is both demographics and results show a growing majority who will ask for government to care for them, and suggest any attempt to change this at the ballot box is a fool's errand, doomed to fail under the weight of numbers.

Am I wrong?
 Quoting: Double O Zero


First off, you seem to be forgetting something very important. The US is NOT a democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. It has never ever been a democracy.

But as some have learned, this administration refuses to accept any part of the Constitution that gets in his way. This in it's self is what is wrong with the Republic part of it. Since the All Powerful and Omnipresent Obama has decreed, so shall it be. He doesn't care if what he does is illegal or not as long as he decides to do it, it must be legal. Hence his latest decree ordering that any decision he makes can NOT be questioned, optioned, or released to the public.
Double O Zero (OP)

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11/28/2012 09:55 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
I'm going to argue that it began as a Constitutional Republic, but the process has become more and more democratic and less republican.

My evidence: 1) The Direct Election of Senators

Taking away from states the ability to select people who represent their interests and choosing direct representatives effectively neutered the idea that states would be put before the federal regime, shortly prefacing the amendments to permit income tax and the creation of the reserve system that made the massive current state possible.

2) Universal Suffrage

Series after series of laws have extended voting to the point where all people are involved, which also made the republic much more democratic, and just as importantly, the removal of restrictions on material bases be they ownership or literacy took away from the republic character.

3) Direct Election Primaries

Where Presidential candidates were once chosen at party conventions, now most states are voting in a direct proxy system, making the system more democratic.

4) Judicial Review

The Supreme Court and other Federal Courts have taken such a broad stance on the general welfare clause of the Constitution as to render the document meaningless in many ways as intended by the framers. They continue to erode our rights by permitting the adoption of bills that erode civil liberties over strenuous objection, both legal and popular.

I know America was a constitutional republic once, and people would like to imagine it still it, but if you look at the daily practices of both our elections and government, I think you'd concede we're far less constitutional and far more democratic than we once were. And frankly, I believe we're beyond the point of being constitutional in so many ways that it becomes a self-denying claim to say we still are.

If we were, however, I think we'd have fewer problems.
Democracy for Chicken
User ID: 28634381
11/28/2012 10:01 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
The question is

what would you do, if your tenants decide to make democracy with you,

if your employees came up with the same idea,

if the vote of lender and debtor would count the same, not in respect to the middle east war but in the matter they have together.

?
Eagle # 1
User ID: 28447870
United States
11/28/2012 10:01 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
One of the GREAT Greek orators said the same thing about their Democracy, B.C. ..... AND he was RIGHT !

We NEVER learn from history BECAUSE, it ISN'T taught, or we are too busy working for the 'disadvantaged', aliens, political parasites, usury for the banisters, or other 'free loaders' !

Ben Franklin said " we had a Republic, IF we can keep it " !

Eagle
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28447870
United States
11/28/2012 10:03 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
" The freeloaders DON'T work" is a better title !
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22054163
United States
11/28/2012 10:16 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
I'm going to argue that it began as a Constitutional Republic, but the process has become more and more democratic and less republican.

My evidence: 1) The Direct Election of Senators

Taking away from states the ability to select people who represent their interests and choosing direct representatives effectively neutered the idea that states would be put before the federal regime, shortly prefacing the amendments to permit income tax and the creation of the reserve system that made the massive current state possible.

2) Universal Suffrage

Series after series of laws have extended voting to the point where all people are involved, which also made the republic much more democratic, and just as importantly, the removal of restrictions on material bases be they ownership or literacy took away from the republic character.

3) Direct Election Primaries

Where Presidential candidates were once chosen at party conventions, now most states are voting in a direct proxy system, making the system more democratic.

4) Judicial Review

The Supreme Court and other Federal Courts have taken such a broad stance on the general welfare clause of the Constitution as to render the document meaningless in many ways as intended by the framers. They continue to erode our rights by permitting the adoption of bills that erode civil liberties over strenuous objection, both legal and popular.

I know America was a constitutional republic once, and people would like to imagine it still it, but if you look at the daily practices of both our elections and government, I think you'd concede we're far less constitutional and far more democratic than we once were. And frankly, I believe we're beyond the point of being constitutional in so many ways that it becomes a self-denying claim to say we still are.

If we were, however, I think we'd have fewer problems.
 Quoting: Double O Zero


Yes and as the "Constitutional Republic" came by fighting the same foe of it today with blood sweat and tears...
Instead those same foe take all that was won by lies false friendships Brutus to Caesar.

It never was dropped and always was there the ones amongst us who in fact were not friend but enemy.
And they open all the gates for the flood waters to rush in and desolate all that is and was.

It is not just the foe of old dark ages oppression and tyranny it is the 20th century finest and the new 21st century finest all at one time now.

From Communist Socialist Theocratical and flat out deliberate by the false cloak of giving away rights to the common mob that remove the laws that kept the gates and door.
While those who devoured the Liberal liberties like the old fall of Rome rights they were fed never saw the horrible sharp barbs of the hook inside it. Why?

Because the going forth of the delivery of the underlying reason to cast them that hook has not came to surface yet.

All those who chomped the bit of rights personal rights and individual rights ...can not remain in powered by those same rights when the throne is taken they are eradicated/removed over the same rights they were brought forth and numbered and labeled to have.

In all things if this world you live in offers you a gift a way it knows to get your self your own way you desire to go..As it was with Eve and Adam that followed suit it always leads to death.

The darkness immediately follows this every where it was and is spread.....desolation, death, plagues and there is the time and day to charm that snake into its pit for its very last time.
It only has to lead all others into it as it is and has been doing for more than a century with fervent action because it is running out of time and knows this.
071676

User ID: 26630358
United States
11/28/2012 10:18 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
I'm going to argue that it began as a Constitutional Republic, but the process has become more and more democratic and less republican.

My evidence: 1) The Direct Election of Senators

Taking away from states the ability to select people who represent their interests and choosing direct representatives effectively neutered the idea that states would be put before the federal regime, shortly prefacing the amendments to permit income tax and the creation of the reserve system that made the massive current state possible.

2) Universal Suffrage

Series after series of laws have extended voting to the point where all people are involved, which also made the republic much more democratic, and just as importantly, the removal of restrictions on material bases be they ownership or literacy took away from the republic character.

3) Direct Election Primaries

Where Presidential candidates were once chosen at party conventions, now most states are voting in a direct proxy system, making the system more democratic.

4) Judicial Review

The Supreme Court and other Federal Courts have taken such a broad stance on the general welfare clause of the Constitution as to render the document meaningless in many ways as intended by the framers. They continue to erode our rights by permitting the adoption of bills that erode civil liberties over strenuous objection, both legal and popular.

I know America was a constitutional republic once, and people would like to imagine it still it, but if you look at the daily practices of both our elections and government, I think you'd concede we're far less constitutional and far more democratic than we once were. And frankly, I believe we're beyond the point of being constitutional in so many ways that it becomes a self-denying claim to say we still are.

If we were, however, I think we'd have fewer problems.
 Quoting: Double O Zero


If it were a true democracy, then either nothing could ever be done, or all rights would have to be limited in order to function. To be honest, much of what you say is true, but not quite correct.

(1) I do not believe that Senators should ever be elected by the citizens of states. I believe they should be elected from the states by the states' federal representatives (Congress). This is the way it was done in the beginning of the country, so that the Senators would only be a value to the states they represent instead of any political, religious, or economic party.
I have to add that I also believe that the President is elected, not by popular vote of the citizens, but by the election of our representatives, as mandated by the Constitution. I do believe that or electors should be bound by the vote totals of the state citizens, except where fraud has been shown to exist.

(2) I believe that all voting in this country shall be by proven citizen only. I do not believe it should only be for property owners, but only for proven citizens. Proven meaning that proof of citizenship should be mandatory upon voter registration.

(3) I have always believed that state primaries were a waste of time, resources, and energy to promote only the most popular instead of the most capable.

(4) I believe that ALL federal courts have to be bound on the letter of the Constitutional Law only! There is no room for personal beliefs, opinions, or agendas in the rule of law under the Constitution. The Law is the Law, not just what you want it to be.

To be honest, my beliefs concerning the government are all outlined in the Constitution. I do make a few changes, such as allowing women to vote, and state primaries. I do believe that the Constitution was written as if written in stone. Anyone that claims that the Constitution is a living document, only make such a claims so that they can and will violate it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28483378
United States
11/28/2012 10:24 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
Howsabout we all just be citizens of the planet and like... not fight or kill or steal from eachother... sound cool? ... cool. No system.. no worries
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28136362


Logic interjected.

Problem is the ones that do wish a free and open system, are the system now and live off the sweat of the others.

By creating lines, religions, etc, it remains true. Divide and conquer.


This then tells you all the god of the book is against humanity as a whole, for it was he that cam, he that saw man had the same language and seen all was well, then decided to babel and confuse all in order to divide and conquer.

It logically then is his children today continuing to uphold the same system.

I believe the blinds have been lifted, you can look and now find the true translation of genesis, wherein it is stated that they came here to colonize. This being true, as with the tower of babel story, then there were others here first.


You beg, nay demand alien disclosure when it is in everything and you simply refuse to see.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 2920706
United States
11/28/2012 10:25 AM
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Re: Democracy doesn't work
I agree with OP that we are now more a democracy than a republic. I think the quickest way to help fix this is to remove the ability of a corporation from influencing decisions by making it illegal to promise any kind of kick back and keeping campaign contributions strictly individual, not corporate. What kills us, in the past and today, with corruption is the money that a company as a pool of resources can contribute in one way or another to an individual politician. Remove this influence and you'll fix a ton.

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