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"Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?

 
_KiLLuMiNaTi_
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11/29/2012 11:40 AM
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"Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
The debate is really over who will pay the bill. Neither side will desert their base.

The Budget Control Act of 2011 was enacted as a compromise to resolve a dispute concerning the public debt ceiling. Deficit spending previously appropriated by Congress was bringing the federal government's total debt close to the statutory ceiling. Republicans in Congress refused to approve an increase in the ceiling unless there were deep spending cuts. The Budget Control Act included an immediate increase in the debt ceiling, along with a mechanism for facilitating two additional increases. It also provided for automatic spending cuts to begin on January 2, 2013.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

As you know, the "fiscal cliff" is a $600 billion combo of tax increases and spending cuts which will take effect in January, and lead to a recession.

There is no way to avoid going "over this cliff " except to tear up the Budget Control Act and kick the problem down the road.

Even then, the GOP would have to agree to raise the debt ceiling.

One way or another, the Piper has to be paid. $600 billion has to be raised.

There are many ways to do this. Eliminating the mortgage interest deduction is an obvious one. This deduction is unique to the US. A valued added sales tax is another example.

But there is no time for such bold action and both sides are digging in.

DEFLATION

One way or another, an annual 600 billion will come out of the economy.

The debate is really over who will pay this bill: The people who voted for Obama or the people who voted for the GOP?

Neither side will sacrifice their base so I predict that the fiscal cliff may look more attractive as December 31 approaches. It is the only thing Congress has managed to agree on so far.

Both sides appear to suffer equally. Both sides can blame the other. The most egregious injustices can be addressed later.
[link to www.henrymakow.com]
The result will be a drop in the stock market and precious metals, until people realize that the world has not ended. Then, it will be pretty much business as usual with confidence in the US dollar restored. (See deficit graph at right)

All over the world, the central bankers are demanding that countries rein in spending. "Austerity" is the watchword. The result will be deflationary but perhaps not horribly so. People will suffer but perhaps the US economy will be stronger in the long run.

"Slower economic growth is the "short term pain" required to establish the stable economic foundation from which "long term gains" may be achieved," writes one commentator.

Another commentator argues that the fiscal cliff is the bitter medicine America needs to get its debt under control:
[link to seekingalpha.com]

"I think that the only way to move toward fiscal discipline is to jump off the fiscal cliff in January. The CBO says that the economic impact would be a mild recession in 2013, followed by resumed growth. That strikes me as a very small price to pay for cutting the deficit in half, limiting future deficits, bringing down the debt ratio over the next decade, re-establishing the AAA ratings and laying the foundation for future prosperity."

FINALLY

Currency is a mode of exchange and, like the air we breathe does not belong to anybody. In an ideal world, a government would be able to issue as much as necessary to make the economy run smoothly. It would not be a debt to anyone and "sovereign debt" would not be an issue.

Alas, we have been brainwashed to accept the current situation where private Masonic families control government credit.
[link to www.henrymakow.com]

As long as we do, we will all suffer the consequences.

read more: [link to www.henrymakow.com]
Don't be a sheeple!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 11:45 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Boehner on now.....TV basically saying..."dont believe the hype" we have NO cooperation ....lol..

quote...{"we have NO idea what the white house is going to do"

anyone seen barry lately after all his pre-election...Im gonna hold hands bullshit
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 11:50 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
How 'bout we hang the banksters?
Steve8511

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11/29/2012 11:52 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
It all doesn’t matter…. No amount of kicking the can down the road will save this country from what’s coming.
We can tax half the richest people in the US 100% of their money and we’re still screwed.
_KiLLuMiNaTi_ (OP)

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11/29/2012 11:56 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
It all doesn’t matter…. No amount of kicking the can down the road will save this country from what’s coming.
We can tax half the richest people in the US 100% of their money and we’re still screwed.
 Quoting: Steve8511


its just the ignorant people in this country have ruined it
Don't be a sheeple!!!!
anonanon
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11/29/2012 11:58 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Ultimately, we will all pay.

Perhaps it is time to just let it all collapse and then rebuild.

We know if we just give those in DC and the White House more money, they will just spend it and waste it on all sorts of things and all sorts of crazy grants and earmarked projects added on to every bill in Congresss.

You can bet it will not be just the "rich" who pay for it.

It is Obama's disaster now....no more blaming Bush.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 11:58 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
It all doesn’t matter…. No amount of kicking the can down the road will save this country from what’s coming.
We can tax half the richest people in the US 100% of their money and we’re still screwed.
 Quoting: Steve8511


True. It's racial degradation coupled with america falling away from god thats the problem, and it happened many decades ago.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 11:59 AM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
It all doesn’t matter…. No amount of kicking the can down the road will save this country from what’s coming.
We can tax half the richest people in the US 100% of their money and we’re still screwed.
 Quoting: Steve8511


Pretty much, if you add social security, medicare, medicaid and interest on the national debt all current tax receipts are spent.

That means the rest of government, salaries, endless wars, pensions, you name it are currently funded via debt. And they keep increasing spending.

lmao
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:04 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:10 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


Dang, that makes too much sence. Theyll never do it.
Carshy McCarsh

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11/29/2012 12:11 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Boehner on now.....TV basically saying..."dont believe the hype" we have NO cooperation ....lol..

quote...{"we have NO idea what the white house is going to do"

anyone seen barry lately after all his pre-election...Im gonna hold hands bullshit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19816311


That's what the bastard has said every time just before he caves and sells us out to the commies.
Tell me what this tastes like...
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:20 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


The amount matters, and if I recall correctly, about 20 years ago James Tobin was recommending a tax level of .01%, so your suggestion is at least milder than that.

Still, the effect on markets would not be negligible. For example as you rightly identify, it would drive away high frequency trading. It wouldn't shut it down altogether, some would survive and move to different jurisdictions. It would weaken NYC (and Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) in its ongoing battle with London and potentially other places (Shanghai?) as the world's main financial city.

And to the extent it reduces taxable trading, the tax receipts would be reduced too. Don't calculate that on current trading volumes, since you say, even boast, that those volumes would go way down.

The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
_KiLLuMiNaTi_ (OP)

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11/29/2012 12:22 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


The amount matters, and if I recall correctly, about 20 years ago James Tobin was recommending a tax level of .01%, so your suggestion is at least milder than that.

Still, the effect on markets would not be negligible. For example as you rightly identify, it would drive away high frequency trading. It wouldn't shut it down altogether, some would survive and move to different jurisdictions. It would weaken NYC (and Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) in its ongoing battle with London and potentially other places (Shanghai?) as the world's main financial city.

And to the extent it reduces taxable trading, the tax receipts would be reduced too. Don't calculate that on current trading volumes, since you say, even boast, that those volumes would go way down.

The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


What is the definition of "rich people" ?
Don't be a sheeple!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:22 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


i gotta say that is a very clever solution, not only would it tackle deficits but it would also inform traders to think twice before manipulating the market without suffering the consequences
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:26 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


Link? Stats? Data? I seriously doubt that statement. This group of people is so small in comparison to the general population their accumulated spending would amount to nothing in terms of the overall GDP of the country. Why do you think the 3rd world nations are beginning to riot? They spend like 50% of their incomes on items necessary to survive, food, energy, shelter etc. Our money printing causes those prices to increase, so they end up spending more as a percentage for what they need.

In comparison, wealth people spend far far less as a percentage of what they have/earn on survival items so inflation doesn't affect them as much, but they need the inflation to maintain their accumulated wealth in the paper assets they hold as "valuable".
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:29 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


i gotta say that is a very clever solution, not only would it tackle deficits but it would also inform traders to think twice before manipulating the market without suffering the consequences
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11333543



Which is why they won't do it. God forbid that anyone should ever make Wall St. pay anything even approaching their fair share of the taxes in this country.
Epic Beard Guy
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11/29/2012 12:31 PM

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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
I doubt there is anything they can do to keep the economy from crashing, but I cannot support another bail-out. That is what they are talking about. They will bail out the dfense contractor at the expense of the rest of us. They have to take care of their big campaign contributers.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
Project_Deimos

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11/29/2012 12:34 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


VERY interesting...
"There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."
cebu4u
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11/29/2012 12:36 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


^^^^^this
Desert FoxModerator
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


Link? Stats? Data? I seriously doubt that statement. This group of people is so small in comparison to the general population their accumulated spending would amount to nothing in terms of the overall GDP of the country. Why do you think the 3rd world nations are beginning to riot? They spend like 50% of their incomes on items necessary to survive, food, energy, shelter etc. Our money printing causes those prices to increase, so they end up spending more as a percentage for what they need.

In comparison, wealth people spend far far less as a percentage of what they have/earn on survival items so inflation doesn't affect them as much, but they need the inflation to maintain their accumulated wealth in the paper assets they hold as "valuable".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


Oh ye of little knowledge.
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Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:57 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
How 'bout we hang the banksters?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27211004


How about we hang the corporations too. (oh yeah, are the REALLY people?) dance
yankeemofo

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11/29/2012 01:15 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.

Trust in those that seek the truth. Doubt those who find it.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:24 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
If we go over the "Fiscal Cliff" both sides win. The R's can claim they didn't raise taxes on their rich base. The D's can claim they raised taxes on the top 2%. Then they'll both agree to lower taxes on the middle-class and everyone making under $500,000 (compromise).

Its whats best for the Republicans, Democrates and the Country.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:33 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


The amount matters, and if I recall correctly, about 20 years ago James Tobin was recommending a tax level of .01%, so your suggestion is at least milder than that.

Still, the effect on markets would not be negligible. For example as you rightly identify, it would drive away high frequency trading. It wouldn't shut it down altogether, some would survive and move to different jurisdictions. It would weaken NYC (and Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) in its ongoing battle with London and potentially other places (Shanghai?) as the world's main financial city.

And to the extent it reduces taxable trading, the tax receipts would be reduced too. Don't calculate that on current trading volumes, since you say, even boast, that those volumes would go way down.

The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


What is the definition of "rich people" ?
 Quoting: _KiLLuMiNaTi_


Well, "rich people who are successful in financial markets" might be those who make, say, $200,000 per year and up in trading-related activity. These are people who might pick up and move to London, or Singapore, or somewhere else following the trading business. Obviously some are much richer than others. In NYC an income of $200,000 per year is somewhere in the middle class.
_KiLLuMiNaTi_ (OP)

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11/29/2012 01:36 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Simple solution: Financial Transactions Tax. A .001% fee on all stock, commodity, and FX market transactions would bring in over a $Trillion per year.
Effect on markets would be negligible, and would reduce computer HFT (high frequency trading) that presently controls and distorts the markets. Since everything is automated, the tax could be automatically deducted and electronically remitted directly to the IRS. Problem solved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2164937


The amount matters, and if I recall correctly, about 20 years ago James Tobin was recommending a tax level of .01%, so your suggestion is at least milder than that.

Still, the effect on markets would not be negligible. For example as you rightly identify, it would drive away high frequency trading. It wouldn't shut it down altogether, some would survive and move to different jurisdictions. It would weaken NYC (and Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) in its ongoing battle with London and potentially other places (Shanghai?) as the world's main financial city.

And to the extent it reduces taxable trading, the tax receipts would be reduced too. Don't calculate that on current trading volumes, since you say, even boast, that those volumes would go way down.

The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


What is the definition of "rich people" ?
 Quoting: _KiLLuMiNaTi_


Well, "rich people who are successful in financial markets" might be those who make, say, $200,000 per year and up in trading-related activity. These are people who might pick up and move to London, or Singapore, or somewhere else following the trading business. Obviously some are much richer than others. In NYC an income of $200,000 per year is somewhere in the middle class.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


And I dont think its fair to tax someone earning 250k a year the same as Bill Gates
Don't be a sheeple!!!!
Carol B.

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11/29/2012 01:39 PM

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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Ultimately, we will all pay.

Perhaps it is time to just let it all collapse and then rebuild.

We know if we just give those in DC and the White House more money, they will just spend it and waste it on all sorts of things and all sorts of crazy grants and earmarked projects added on to every bill in Congresss.

You can bet it will not be just the "rich" who pay for it.

It is Obama's disaster now....no more blaming Bush.
 Quoting: anonanon 4148733



^^that^^+1000
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:42 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


Link? Stats? Data? I seriously doubt that statement. This group of people is so small in comparison to the general population their accumulated spending would amount to nothing in terms of the overall GDP of the country. Why do you think the 3rd world nations are beginning to riot? They spend like 50% of their incomes on items necessary to survive, food, energy, shelter etc. Our money printing causes those prices to increase, so they end up spending more as a percentage for what they need.

In comparison, wealth people spend far far less as a percentage of what they have/earn on survival items so inflation doesn't affect them as much, but they need the inflation to maintain their accumulated wealth in the paper assets they hold as "valuable".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 961432


You need a link, stats or data to convince you that rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services. Sorry I won't bother proving such an obvious statement.

The financial industry is still the backbone of the NYC economy. Rich people buy groceries and restaurant meals, yachts and apartments. They buy a black Mercedes or two every few years. They spend a smaller %age of their income on survival gear than poor people, but that's beside the point. A lot of people's jobs depend on non-survival jobs. A lot of people at private boatyards lost their jobs around 2008, as the private yacht business went way down.

You're begging the same question I asked. Do you care only about survival spending? Do you want the USA to become a 3rd world country, with less freebies that ordinary folks can glean? Some amount of that would happen if a significant chunk of the financial industry leaves the US jurisdiction.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:46 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Ultimately, we will all pay.

Perhaps it is time to just let it all collapse and then rebuild.

We know if we just give those in DC and the White House more money, they will just spend it and waste it on all sorts of things and all sorts of crazy grants and earmarked projects added on to every bill in Congresss.

You can bet it will not be just the "rich" who pay for it.

It is Obama's disaster now....no more blaming Bush.
 Quoting: anonanon 4148733



^^that^^+1000
 Quoting: Carol B.


But he doesn't care. Having had his last election, he has more flexibility. He doesn't need to care what anyone thinks of him, whether it's about lies coming from Susan Rice or any other issue.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:51 PM
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...


The amount matters, and if I recall correctly, about 20 years ago James Tobin was recommending a tax level of .01%, so your suggestion is at least milder than that.

Still, the effect on markets would not be negligible. For example as you rightly identify, it would drive away high frequency trading. It wouldn't shut it down altogether, some would survive and move to different jurisdictions. It would weaken NYC (and Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) in its ongoing battle with London and potentially other places (Shanghai?) as the world's main financial city.

And to the extent it reduces taxable trading, the tax receipts would be reduced too. Don't calculate that on current trading volumes, since you say, even boast, that those volumes would go way down.

The rich people who are successful in financial markets consume a lot of goods and services, many of them domestically. If they move out of country, you may say good riddance but do you mean it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


What is the definition of "rich people" ?
 Quoting: _KiLLuMiNaTi_


Well, "rich people who are successful in financial markets" might be those who make, say, $200,000 per year and up in trading-related activity. These are people who might pick up and move to London, or Singapore, or somewhere else following the trading business. Obviously some are much richer than others. In NYC an income of $200,000 per year is somewhere in the middle class.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


And I dont think its fair to tax someone earning 250k a year the same as Bill Gates
 Quoting: _KiLLuMiNaTi_


Well the guys making $5 million might be more likely to leave, since they have more contacts and might be more able to set up elsewhere.

The transaction tax would be more fair, but there's another thread today about how so many high earners have left the UK because they could do better under regulatory schemes elsewhere.
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 02:10 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Isn't there anything the President can do by executive order in times like this? The partisan BS is sickening. Who the hell elected this Grover Norquist guy anyway? Oh, he's not an elected official? Fuck him. Those who signed his idiot pledge should step up and agree that taxes aren't all evil and a few extra grand a year is not even going to put a dent in someone making $150,000 never mind $250,000.
_KiLLuMiNaTi_ (OP)

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11/29/2012 02:18 PM
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Re: "Fiscal Cliff" - Increasingly Likely & Desirable?
Isn't there anything the President can do by executive order in times like this? The partisan BS is sickening. Who the hell elected this Grover Norquist guy anyway? Oh, he's not an elected official? Fuck him. Those who signed his idiot pledge should step up and agree that taxes aren't all evil and a few extra grand a year is not even going to put a dent in someone making $150,000 never mind $250,000.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1283316


its almost like the things our prez does are to intentionally kill our nation

*wink wink*
Don't be a sheeple!!!!

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