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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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Keep2theCode
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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything. I'm just stating what I believe and why. If you have an honest question I'll be happy to answer. If I disappear from commenting (assuming I wasn't raptured!), rest assured it is due to "technical difficulties" and not a refusal to engage in conversation.

In Luke 12:35-36, Jesus uses the Jewish wedding customs to illustrate something about his return, indicating that we are to be eager to see him-- as opposed to looking for an impostor (e.g., the Antichrist, as in other Trib. views). Paul echoed that attitude of anticipation in 1 Tim. 4:8, where he told us there is a "crown of righteousness" awaiting "all who have longed for his appearing". Some may argue that all of this applies at least equally to those who have suffered greatly through the Trib. and want to be rescued, but there is no element of uncertainty then; they know when seven years is up. If Paul expected to receive this crown, and clearly was not in the Trib., then it can only apply to an unknowable appearing: the pre-trib Rapture.

Jesus also alluded to the Jewish wedding custom in John 14:1-3 when he spoke of going to his father's house to prepare a place for us. The custom was that once the woman agreed to marry the man, he would go to his father's house to prepare a room for the two of them. He could not return for her until it was finished and approved by his father-- a time he could not know for sure. Likewise, the bride had to always be ready, watching for signs of the groom's return, and being eager and prepared to go at a moment's notice. When he finally came, they would go to the prepared room for seven days, after which there would be a great banquet.

In just those two wedding-themed references we can see obvious parallels to the pre-trib view. Note also that during those 7 days/years, the bride and groom are together and very happy, which is exactly the opposite of the bride being punished, tested, made to suffer, and perhaps even being killed. We would have to completely dismiss all the important details of the analogy in order to make the church go through the tribulation for any length of time at all.

In 1 Cor. 15:51-53 Paul expressly states that not all believers will die, and he gave no indication that he could not be among them. But if "the last trumpet" meant something to do with Jewish feasts, Paul never states this so it has to be inferred, yet there is nothing in the context upon which to base such an inference. This is in a context of the resurrection of the dead, not the Jewish feasts. Neither does he give the slightest hint there of persecution, much less of "great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again" (Mt. 24:21). And the Revelation had not yet been given to John, such that the Corinthians would have had any idea about 7 trumpets sounded by angels in the coming wrath of God.

Now to the most common references, in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. The first, in 1 Thes. 4:15-18, is again in the context of the resurrection of the dead. But note that the trumpet here is described as being "of God" and is accompanied by "the shout of the archangel". More importantly, the meeting place is not the earth (as is the case for the 2nd Coming) but the air, in the clouds. And Paul follows this with telling the people to encourage each other with these words, in light of their fears about the fate of the dead. Nothing there is about that time of unparalleled suffering Jesus mentioned.

The second, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, is to stop a rumor that was being spread through a forged letter. Someone was doing exactly what many do today: saying we are already in the Trib. and the Seals are being opened, meaning there either was no pre-trib Rapture or we missed it. The people were distraught and Paul needed to remind them of what he had told them before.

The word rendered "rebellion" is of course apostasia, and presumes that it means "falling away" from true teachings. But the context is not about falsehood at all; it is about "the Day of the Lord". This is not to be confused with the (2nd) Coming of the Lord at the end of the Trib. The word simply means "to stand apart or away from", and needs surrounding context to tell us what is being stood apart from. But in this instance it also has the definite article and should be rendered "The Departure". So here is the sequence of events Paul is reminding them about:

1-- The Lawless One will not be revealed before his time, being restrained by an entity Paul does not identify for us.
2-- The Departure (ref. same event in 1 Thes. 4:17, "caught up", rendered "rapiemur" in Latin)
3-- The Lawless One is revealed
4-- He declares himself God
5-- He will be overthrown by Jesus

In the Revelation to John that would come sometime after this letter was written, the church would be given much more detail about this sequence, but Paul's narrative here follows the general order there.

Finally, we look at the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, of which Revelation seems to be a more detailed account. We know from hindsight that the 'sevens' must be 'weeks of years' because there were 483 years from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One came. But note the purpose of the 'sevens': to finish prophecy and usher in everlasting righteousness. Only the full Preterist position claims that ALL prophecy is completed already, but even so it has no explanation for these 2,000 years of church history following. So the weight of evidence would seem to favor a view which concludes that this purpose has not yet been fulfilled.

The final 'seven' was delayed when the Anointed One was "cut off" as Israel rejected him. James explained in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:14-17 that it was God's plan to bring in the Gentiles and then "AFTER THIS I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent". Paul indicated in Rom. 11:25 that the timing of this restoration depended not on a particular time or date, but a number: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in". This is the "church age", the "times of the Gentiles", and it is of unknown duration. But when that number is reached, Jesus will descend and we will meet him in the air, to be with him for that seven-year wedding celebration.

Consider also this passage from the Old Testament:
16 Lord, they came to you in their distress;
when you disciplined them,
they could barely whisper a prayer.
17 As a pregnant woman about to give birth
writhes and cries out in her pain,
so were we in your presence, Lord.
18 We were with child, we writhed in labor,
but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth,
and the people of the world have not come to life.
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
 Quoting: Isaiah 26:16-21

There is no reason this cannot be applied to the pre-tribulation Rapture, but personally I think it refers to the 2nd half of the Tribulation, where Jesus said the people of Judea must hurry to safety in the mountains (Mt. 24:15-18, Rev. 12:6,14).

I point this out for two reasons: one, that I don't jump on any end times passage and scream "Rapture!", and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never experienced physical death.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 07/09/2013 03:24 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
wiede
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Agreed
_KiLLuMiNaTi_

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
There is no rapture
Don't be a sheeple!!!!
Lisa*Lisa

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
It happens at the 7th trump.

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Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 12:53 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything. I'm just stating what I believe and why. If you have an honest question I'll be happy to answer. If I disappear from commenting (assuming I wasn't raptured!), rest assured it is due to "technical difficulties" and not a refusal to engage in conversation.

In Luke 12:35-36, Jesus uses the Jewish wedding customs to illustrate something about his return, indicating that we are to be eager to see him-- as opposed to looking for an impostor (e.g., the Antichrist, as in other Trib. views). Paul echoed that attitude of anticipation in 1 Tim. 4:8, where he told us there is a "crown of righteousness" awaiting "all who have longed for his appearing". Some may argue that all of this applies at least equally to those who have suffered greatly through the Trib. and want to be rescued, but there is no element of uncertainty then; they know when seven years is up. If Paul expected to receive this crown, and clearly was not in the Trib., then it can only apply to an unknowable appearing: the pre-trib Rapture.

Jesus also alluded to the Jewish wedding custom in John 14:1-3 when he spoke of going to his father's house to prepare a place for us. The custom was that once the woman agreed to marry the man, he would go to his father's house to prepare a room for the two of them. He could not return for her until it was finished and approved by his father-- a time he could not know for sure. Likewise, the bride had to always be ready, watching for signs of the groom's return, and being eager and prepared to go at a moment's notice. When he finally came, they would go to the prepared room for seven days, after which there would be a great banquet.

In just those two wedding-themed references we can see obvious parallels to the pre-trib view. Note also that during those 7 days/years, the bride and groom are together and very happy, which is exactly the opposite of the bride being punished, tested, made to suffer, and perhaps even being killed. We would have to completely dismiss all the important details of the analogy in order to make the church go through the tribulation for any length of time at all.

In 1 Cor. 15:51-53 Paul expressly states that not all believers will die, and he gave no indication that he could not be among them. But if "the last trumpet" meant something to do with Jewish feasts, Paul never states this so it has to be inferred, yet there is nothing in the context upon which to base such an inference. This is in a context of the resurrection of the dead, not the Jewish feasts. Neither does he give the slightest hint there of persecution, much less of "great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again" (Mt. 24:21). And the Revelation had not yet been given to John, such that the Corinthians would have had any idea about 7 trumpets sounded by angels in the coming wrath of God.

Now to the most common references, in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. The first, in 1 Thes. 4:15-18, is again in the context of the resurrection of the dead. But note that the trumpet here is described as being "of God" and is accompanied by "the shout of the archangel". More importantly, the meeting place is not the earth (as is the case for the 2nd Coming) but the air, in the clouds. And Paul follows this with telling the people to encourage each other with these words, in light of their fears about the fate of the dead. Nothing there is about that time of unparalleled suffering Jesus mentioned.

The second, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, is to stop a rumor that was being spread through a forged letter. Someone was doing exactly what many do today: saying we are already in the Trib. and the Seals are being opened, meaning there either was no pre-trib Rapture or we missed it. The people were distraught and Paul needed to remind them of what he had told them before.

The word rendered "rebellion" is of course apostasia, and presumes that it means "falling away" from true teachings. But the context is not about falsehood at all; it is about "the Day of the Lord". This is not to be confused with the (2nd) Coming of the Lord at the end of the Trib. The word simply means "to stand apart or away from", and needs surrounding context to tell us what is being stood apart from. But in this instance it also has the definite article and should be rendered "The Departure". So here is the sequence of events Paul is reminding them about:

1-- The Lawless One will not be revealed before his time, being restrained by an entity Paul does not identify for us.
2-- The Departure (ref. same event in 1 Thes. 4:17, "caught up", rendered "rapiemur" in Latin)
3-- The Lawless One is revealed
4-- He declares himself God
5-- He will be overthrown by Jesus

In the Revelation to John that would come sometime after this letter was written, the church would be given much more detail about this sequence, but Paul's narrative here follows the general order there.

Finally, we look at the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, of which Revelation seems to be a more detailed account. We know from hindsight that the 'sevens' must be 'weeks of years' because there were 483 years from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One came. But note the purpose of the 'sevens': to finish prophecy and usher in everlasting righteousness. Only the full Preterist position claims that ALL prophecy is completed already, but even so it has no explanation for these 2,000 years of church history following. So the weight of evidence would seem to favor a view which concludes that this purpose has not yet been fulfilled.

The final 'seven' was delayed when the Anointed One was "cut off" as Israel rejected him. James explained in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:14-17 that it was God's plan to bring in the Gentiles and then "AFTER THIS I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent". Paul indicated in Rom. 11:25 that the timing of this restoration depended not on a particular time or date, but a number: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in". This is the "church age", the "times of the Gentiles", and it is of unknown duration. But when that number is reached, Jesus will descend and we will meet him in the air, to be with him for that seven-year wedding celebration.

Consider also this passage from the Old Testament:
16 Lord, they came to you in their distress;
when you disciplined them,
they could barely whisper a prayer.
17 As a pregnant woman about to give birth
writhes and cries out in her pain,
so were we in your presence, Lord.
18 We were with child, we writhed in labor,
but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth,
and the people of the world have not come to life.
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
 Quoting: Isaiah 26:16-21

There is no reason this cannot be applied to the pre-tribulation Rapture, but personally I think it refers to the 2nd half of the Tribulation, where Jesus said the people of Judea must hurry to safety in the mountains (Mt. 24:15-18, Rev. 12:6,14).

I point this out for two reasons: one, that I don't jump on any end times passage and scream "Rapture!", and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never experienced physical death.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

The one set of quotes Pre trib people ignore:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So at the coming of Christ,(the time of the "Rapture"), an Anti Christ will have arisen,(see verse 24,26), that would deceive the very elect, that will claim to be Christ ("He" in verse 26, Note that the "rapture" of the "elect" does not take place till verse 31, Notice verse 29, calls the period the "tribulation of those days"), So this places the Rapture, in the Tribulation period, not before it.
Compare this with Revelation chapter 16, Especially note, the days of tribulation, before verse 15,
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Now, How many times does Jesus visit the Earth, in a quick, quiet manner, like a thief? Only once, at the Rapture of the Saints.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These two accounts fit like a hand and a glove together.
TheSeventhGate

User ID: 17546962
Ireland
11/29/2012 12:58 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bsflag

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6


Proof that Christian's will be martyred during the Great Tribulation.
The pawns are in place, the stage is set. The question is, are you ready?

Righteous anger and Zeal does not equate to hate,pride or arrogance and are fully justified.

Soon, all the slaves will be released, for the Jubilee approaches.

Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. Isaiah 42:12

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins. Genesis 35:11 America(Maneesah), Britain(Ephraim) and the Prophesied Common-Wealth(Company of nations)

Saul/Paul, the false Apostle.
[link to www.judaismvschristianity.com]
[link to www.jesuswordsonly.com]

The transplanted Throne of King David to Ireland,Scotland, and England fulfilling Ezekiel 21:25-27 Prophecy.
[link to www.henrymakow.com]
[link to www.giveshare.org]

The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel...Found!
[link to stevenmcollins.com]

Proof that the Law of Moses is still in effect.
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com] 777
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8213675
United States
11/29/2012 01:03 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
As in the days of Noah were, so to shall the coming of the Son of Man be when the wicked were taken from off of the earth!



There is no rapture!

The wicked will and are dieing of the plagues!
_KiLLuMiNaTi_

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11/29/2012 01:04 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
As in the days of Noah were, so to shall the coming of the Son of Man be when the wicked were taken from off of the earth!



There is no rapture!

The wicked will and are dieing of the plagues!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8213675


exactly it is not like Jesus is going to make a pit stop
Don't be a sheeple!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:05 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
laugh
TheSeventhGate

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11/29/2012 01:08 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bsflag

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6


Proof that Christian's will be martyred during the Great Tribulation.
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Not to mention this.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Indisputable!!!
The pawns are in place, the stage is set. The question is, are you ready?

Righteous anger and Zeal does not equate to hate,pride or arrogance and are fully justified.

Soon, all the slaves will be released, for the Jubilee approaches.

Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. Isaiah 42:12

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins. Genesis 35:11 America(Maneesah), Britain(Ephraim) and the Prophesied Common-Wealth(Company of nations)

Saul/Paul, the false Apostle.
[link to www.judaismvschristianity.com]
[link to www.jesuswordsonly.com]

The transplanted Throne of King David to Ireland,Scotland, and England fulfilling Ezekiel 21:25-27 Prophecy.
[link to www.henrymakow.com]
[link to www.giveshare.org]

The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel...Found!
[link to stevenmcollins.com]

Proof that the Law of Moses is still in effect.
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com] 777
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/29/2012 01:14 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The one set of quotes Pre trib people ignore:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28216119

I do not ignore any passage of scripture, so you have accused me and everyone who holds this view falsely. Jesus will not take it lightly. Which of us is deceived will finally come to light at the judgment.

Please read the opening paragraph of my OP again about making such accusations.

So at the coming of Christ,(the time of the "Rapture"), an Anti Christ will have arisen...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28216119

As I showed in the OP, the sequence begins with the Rapture; it is the Day of the Lord, not the Rapture, which is preceded by the AC. You can't just look at one passage either; there is MUCH more to prophecy than the Olivet Discourse.

Now, How many times does Jesus visit the Earth, in a quick, quiet manner, like a thief? Only once, at the Rapture of the Saints.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28216119

Who says He can only do this once? If you recall the parable of the ten virgins, remember that the church is the Bride and thus NOT any of the virgins; she would never be locked out of her own wedding! Rather, the virgins represent Jews during the Tribulation, some of whom will be wise and expect their Messiah, while others are foolish and shut out.

So also for the final gathering. Notice that it says "from one end of HEAVEN to the other", not "the four corners of the earth". Remember also that this Discourse is to the Jews; the church had not yet been created or even revealed. Paul states:
1 Cor. 2:7-8
No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
 Quoting: Bible


Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/29/2012 01:15 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:25 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Its one thing to have a so called "Scriptural basis" which is based on weddings and conjecture and a lot of guessing and HOPE..

But its quite another to have actual UNTWISTED plain as day PROOF..

HERE IT IS...

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post)

#1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and

#2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

(side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture, this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place.

The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:34 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
As in the days of Noah were, so to shall the coming of the Son of Man be when the wicked were taken from off of the earth!



There is no rapture!

The wicked will and are dieing of the plagues!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8213675

You do not understand the verses.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Now those that remained upon the ground(Earth), died in the Flood, but Noah survived by leaving the Ground(Earth).
In the Bible, the air (anything above ground level) from which rain comes and birds fly in, is often called "Heaven", the proper name being, the First Heaven,(there are 3 Heaven's).

So Noah in the Ark traveled into "Heaven" to survive the Flood and the destruction of the Wicked,later to return and re-inhabit the Earth

This is symbolic of the coming Rapture of the Saints, leaving the Wicked behind, and traveling into "Heaven". Later to return, during the 1,000 year Reign of Christ.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/29/2012 01:36 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
So disagreeing with you automatically is "twisting" scripture? Wow. And ignoring many other passages of scripture is "proof"? Again, wow.

Nobody disputes that the 2nd Coming is at the end of the Tribulation. But The Departure is NOT the 2nd Coming. The mere mention of trumpets and cosmic disturbances does not prove anything; such things can happen at BOTH ends of the Tribulation, as well as during.

-- the tribes of the earth do not mourn at the Rapture

-- there is no battle taking place at the Rapture as there is at the end of the Tribulation

-- at the Rapture we are taken up to meet Jesus in the air, but at the 2nd Coming we return from heaven to earth with Jesus

-- "the elect" is a term used for the faithful regardless of whether they were pre-Israel, church age, or Tribulation era, so it proves nothing about the church going through the Tribulation

And again, Jesus was speaking TO JEWS, since the church DID NOT YET EXIST.

As for your mockery of "secret" Rapture, show me where I, or any other reputable Rapture teacher, calls it a "secret".

Did you even read my OP at all?

Here is a link to a page listing many scholarly articles on the pre-trib position: [link to www.raptureme.com] . IF you bother to read much of it at all, you will find all your alleged "proofs" refuted and debunked.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 09/03/2013 08:31 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:41 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
AC 184stalking is a crime

So disagreeing with you automatically is "twisting" scripture? Wow. And ignoring many other passages of scripture is "proof"? Again, wow.

Nobody disputes that the 2nd Coming is at the end of the Tribulation. But The Departure is NOT the 2nd Coming. The mere mention of trumpets and cosmic disturbances does not prove anything; such things can happen at BOTH ends of the Tribulation, as well as during.

-- the tribes of the earth do not mourn at the Rapture

-- there is no battle taking place at the Rapture as there is at the end of the Tribulation

-- at the Rapture we are taken up to meet Jesus in the air, but at the 2nd Coming we return from heaven to earth with Jesus

-- "the elect" is a term used for the faithful regardless of whether they were pre-Israel, church age, or Tribulation era, so it proves nothing about the church going through the Tribulation

And again, Jesus was speaking TO JEWS, since the church DID NOT YET EXIST.

As for your mockery of "secret" Rapture, show me where I, or any other reputable Rapture teacher, calls it a "secret".

Did you even read my OP at all?

Here is a link to a page listing many scholarly articles on the pre-trib position: [link to www.raptureme.com] . IF you bother to read much of it at all, you will find all your alleged "proofs" refuted and debunked.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25140151
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11/29/2012 01:43 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bsflag

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6


Proof that Christian's will be martyred during the Great Tribulation.
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Not to mention this.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Indisputable!!!
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Very true my Ireland brother/sister in the Lord. It is indisputable.

In fact to (add the certaintly of truth to that even another step)...notice the very next verse (vs 5, "and this is the first resurrection"!) Bingo!

If this (when those killed for our Lord in the GT per vs. 4) are resurrected with Him for a thousand years - AND THIS IS CALLED "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" - THEN THERE'S NO RESURRECTION BEFORE IT!...ie No rapture before it.

Remember, the "rapture" or catching away is the resurrection; the resurrection or catching away is the rapture...they're the same event; Christians should know this...but here's proof if you don't: "the dead in Christ rise first." "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." 1Thes.4:16,17

Truly, there are many, many more...that place absolute certainy from the Word, that the timing of the catching away of the church, occurs at the second coming of our Lord...not before.

This is Scriptural certainty.

For those brothers/sisters in the (true) Lord of Glory, do not be deceived by the false teaching of the pre-trib heresy. It's truly those that "endure til the end" that shall be saved. Remember, (from our Lord): "Father, I pray that they not be taken from the world, but rather, that you keep them from the evil one."

Praise God
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:49 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Ok OP. Here's a variation on Pascal's wager.

I do not believe in a pre-Trib rapture, but I am a Christian.

If there is a rapture, I would still get taken, regardless of my theological bent concerning the rapture doctrine. The only condition for said rapture would be my faith in Christ.

So I have lost nothing by rejecting the doctrine of the rapture.

If, however, I am right and the tribulation were to begin, I would suspect that you would be unprepared, confused and distraught. Millions of Christians who have staked everything on a belief in the rapture would become very disillusioned and easily misled.

The danger of believing and preaching the rapture doctrine is greater than rejecting it.
TheSeventhGate

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11/29/2012 01:51 PM
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bsflag

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6


Proof that Christian's will be martyred during the Great Tribulation.
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Not to mention this.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Indisputable!!!
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Very true my Ireland brother/sister in the Lord. It is indisputable.

In fact to (add the certaintly of truth to that even another step)...notice the very next verse (vs 5, "and this is the first resurrection"!) Bingo!

If this (when those killed for our Lord in the GT per vs. 4) are resurrected with Him for a thousand years - AND THIS IS CALLED "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" - THEN THERE'S NO RESURRECTION BEFORE IT!...ie No rapture before it.

Remember, the "rapture" or catching away is the resurrection; the resurrection or catching away is the rapture...they're the same event; Christians should know this...but here's proof if you don't: "the dead in Christ rise first." "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." 1Thes.4:16,17

Truly, there are many, many more...that place absolute certainy from the Word, that the timing of the catching away of the church, occurs at the second coming of our Lord...not before.

This is Scriptural certainty.

For those brothers/sisters in the (true) Lord of Glory, do not be deceived by the false teaching of the pre-trib heresy. It's truly those that "endure til the end" that shall be saved. Remember, (from our Lord): "Father, I pray that they not be taken from the world, but rather, that you keep them from the evil one."

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


applause God bless you Brother/Sister. charlie
The pawns are in place, the stage is set. The question is, are you ready?

Righteous anger and Zeal does not equate to hate,pride or arrogance and are fully justified.

Soon, all the slaves will be released, for the Jubilee approaches.

Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. Isaiah 42:12

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins. Genesis 35:11 America(Maneesah), Britain(Ephraim) and the Prophesied Common-Wealth(Company of nations)

Saul/Paul, the false Apostle.
[link to www.judaismvschristianity.com]
[link to www.jesuswordsonly.com]

The transplanted Throne of King David to Ireland,Scotland, and England fulfilling Ezekiel 21:25-27 Prophecy.
[link to www.henrymakow.com]
[link to www.giveshare.org]

The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel...Found!
[link to stevenmcollins.com]

Proof that the Law of Moses is still in effect.
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com]
[link to www.biblegateway.com] 777
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 01:56 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bsflag

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6


Proof that Christian's will be martyred during the Great Tribulation.
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Not to mention this.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Indisputable!!!
 Quoting: TheSeventhGate


Very true my Ireland brother/sister in the Lord. It is indisputable.

In fact to (add the certaintly of truth to that even another step)...notice the very next verse (vs 5, "and this is the first resurrection"!) Bingo!

If this (when those killed for our Lord in the GT per vs. 4) are resurrected with Him for a thousand years - AND THIS IS CALLED "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" - THEN THERE'S NO RESURRECTION BEFORE IT!...ie No rapture before it.

Remember, the "rapture" or catching away is the resurrection; the resurrection or catching away is the rapture...they're the same event; Christians should know this...but here's proof if you don't: "the dead in Christ rise first." "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." 1Thes.4:16,17

Truly, there are many, many more...that place absolute certainy from the Word, that the timing of the catching away of the church, occurs at the second coming of our Lord...not before.

This is Scriptural certainty.

For those brothers/sisters in the (true) Lord of Glory, do not be deceived by the false teaching of the pre-trib heresy. It's truly those that "endure til the end" that shall be saved. Remember, (from our Lord): "Father, I pray that they not be taken from the world, but rather, that you keep them from the evil one."

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


AS I said...

The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21278806
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11/29/2012 02:08 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The doctrine of the rapture was created around 1860.Never existed before that. Its a frabication/construct to appeal to mans need for an endtime event.

Scripture is mythical. Revelation is what happens to YOU internally when you experience ego death and are resurrected into the new mind.

Of course those that take the bible literally will dismiss this...
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 02:18 PM
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[link to www.youtube.com]



For more messages look here...

[link to eindtijdnieuws.blogspot.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 02:20 PM
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 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1581136


The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
Anonymous Coward
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11/29/2012 03:02 PM
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 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1581136


The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17674615



What is the Pretribulation Rapture?

The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently

The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture."


Armies in Fine Linen

When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army's members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.

War or Rapture

(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.


The Five Foolish Virgins

The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.
Anonymous Coward
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Dear OP, thanks for sharing.
Anonymous Coward
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"and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never "


*****************************************


That is why it is CRUCIAL to identify exactly where satan's wrath ends...... and God's wrath begins.
Anonymous Coward
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"and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never "


*****************************************


That is why it is CRUCIAL to identify exactly where satan's wrath ends...... and God's wrath begins.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170


6th Seal: the whole world goes black for an unspecified period of time......could be months.


The elites hide in fear in caves and declare:


"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB! For the great day of HIS WRATH HAS COME....." (Rev. 6: 16-17)


Note: The above declaration cannot possibly be written in more clear terms......even if you tried. God's wrath is about to begin.


The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm. They will remain on earth. The Chrisitians are caught up by angels.


(The 144,000 were not sealed from harm prior to the First Seal......but just prior to the 7th Seal.)


7th Seal: God's wrath......the trumpet and bowl judgements.......comprising approx. the final one to two years of Daniel's 70th week. The fifth trumpet judgement by itself is five months in duration.



First Five Seals: Satan's wrath as expressed through men, the man of evil when he comes, false prophet, etc.


Satan's wrath has been going on a long time......from several thousand years ago.....until today.....and will get even worse in the future.


God's wrath (7th Seal) is very distinct......and cannot be duplicated by either man or satan.
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Blisbell
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05/26/2013 10:37 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

So also for the final gathering. Notice that it says "from one end of HEAVEN to the other", not "the four corners of the earth". Remember also that this Discourse is to the Jews; the church had not yet been created or even revealed. Paul states:
1 Cor. 2:7-8
No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
 Quoting: Bible



Rom 11:7 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

No its not talking about Israel
Anonymous Coward
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I'm with you Op.

Jesus is not a wife beater.
Judgmenthasbegun.

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything. I'm just stating what I believe and why. If you have an honest question I'll be happy to answer. If I disappear from commenting (assuming I wasn't raptured!), rest assured it is due to "technical difficulties" and not a refusal to engage in conversation.

In Luke 12:35-36, Jesus uses the Jewish wedding customs to illustrate something about his return, indicating that we are to be eager to see him-- as opposed to looking for an impostor (e.g., the Antichrist, as in other Trib. views). Paul echoed that attitude of anticipation in 1 Tim. 4:8, where he told us there is a "crown of righteousness" awaiting "all who have longed for his appearing". Some may argue that all of this applies at least equally to those who have suffered greatly through the Trib. and want to be rescued, but there is no element of uncertainty then; they know when seven years is up. If Paul expected to receive this crown, and clearly was not in the Trib., then it can only apply to an unknowable appearing: the pre-trib Rapture.

Jesus also alluded to the Jewish wedding custom in John 14:1-3 when he spoke of going to his father's house to prepare a place for us. The custom was that once the woman agreed to marry the man, he would go to his father's house to prepare a room for the two of them. He could not return for her until it was finished and approved by his father-- a time he could not know for sure. Likewise, the bride had to always be ready, watching for signs of the groom's return, and being eager and prepared to go at a moment's notice. When he finally came, they would go to the prepared room for seven days, after which there would be a great banquet.

In just those two wedding-themed references we can see obvious parallels to the pre-trib view. Note also that during those 7 days/years, the bride and groom are together and very happy, which is exactly the opposite of the bride being punished, tested, made to suffer, and perhaps even being killed. We would have to completely dismiss all the important details of the analogy in order to make the church go through the tribulation for any length of time at all.

In 1 Cor. 15:51-53 Paul expressly states that not all believers will die, and he gave no indication that he could not be among them. But if "the last trumpet" meant something to do with Jewish feasts, Paul never states this so it has to be inferred, yet there is nothing in the context upon which to base such an inference. This is in a context of the resurrection of the dead, not the Jewish feasts. Neither does he give the slightest hint there of persecution, much less of "great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again" (Mt. 24:21). And the Revelation had not yet been given to John, such that the Corinthians would have had any idea about 7 trumpets sounded by angels in the coming wrath of God.

Now to the most common references, in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians. The first, in 1 Thes. 4:15-18, is again in the context of the resurrection of the dead. But note that the trumpet here is described as being "of God" and is accompanied by "the shout of the archangel". More importantly, the meeting place is not the earth (as is the case for the 2nd Coming) but the air, in the clouds. And Paul follows this with telling the people to encourage each other with these words, in light of their fears about the fate of the dead. Nothing there is about that time of unparalleled suffering Jesus mentioned.

The second, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, is to stop a rumor that was being spread through a forged letter. Someone was doing exactly what many do today: saying we are already in the Trib. and the Seals are being opened, meaning there either was no pre-trib Rapture or we missed it. The people were distraught and Paul needed to remind them of what he had told them before.

The word rendered "rebellion" is of course apostasia, and presumes that it means "falling away" from true teachings. But the context is not about falsehood at all; it is about "the Day of the Lord". This is not to be confused with the (2nd) Coming of the Lord at the end of the Trib. The word simply means "to stand apart or away from", and needs surrounding context to tell us what is being stood apart from. But in this instance it also has the definite article and should be rendered "The Departure". So here is the sequence of events Paul is reminding them about:

1-- The Lawless One will not be revealed before his time, being restrained by an entity Paul does not identify for us.
2-- The Departure (ref. same event in 1 Thes. 4:17, "caught up", rendered "rapiemur" in Latin)
3-- The Lawless One is revealed
4-- He declares himself God
5-- He will be overthrown by Jesus

In the Revelation to John that would come sometime after this letter was written, the church would be given much more detail about this sequence, but Paul's narrative here follows the general order there.

Finally, we look at the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, of which Revelation seems to be a more detailed account. We know from hindsight that the 'sevens' must be 'weeks of years' because there were 483 years from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One came. But note the purpose of the 'sevens': to finish prophecy and usher in everlasting righteousness. Only the full Preterist position claims that ALL prophecy is completed already, but even so it has no explanation for these 2,000 years of church history following. So the weight of evidence would seem to favor a view which concludes that this purpose has not yet been fulfilled.

The final 'seven' was delayed when the Anointed One was "cut off" as Israel rejected him. James explained in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:14-17 that it was God's plan to bring in the Gentiles and then "AFTER THIS I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent". Paul indicated in Rom. 11:25 that the timing of this restoration depended not on a particular time or date, but a number: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in". This is the "church age", the "times of the Gentiles", and it is of unknown duration. But when that number is reached, Jesus will descend and we will meet him in the air, to be with him for that seven-year wedding celebration.

Consider also this passage from the Old Testament:
16 Lord, they came to you in their distress;
when you disciplined them,
they could barely whisper a prayer.
17 As a pregnant woman about to give birth
writhes and cries out in her pain,
so were we in your presence, Lord.
18 We were with child, we writhed in labor,
but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth,
and the people of the world have not come to life.
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
 Quoting: Isaiah 26:16-21

There is no reason this cannot be applied to the pre-tribulation Rapture, but personally I think it refers to the 2nd half of the Tribulation, where Jesus said the people of Judea must hurry to safety in the mountains (Mt. 24:15-18, Rev. 12:6,14).

I point this out for two reasons: one, that I don't jump on any end times passage and scream "Rapture!", and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never experienced physical death.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

IMMEDIATELY AFTER!
Judgmenthasbegun.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Dear OP, thanks for sharing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40554159


You're quite welcome. hf

"and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never "


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That is why it is CRUCIAL to identify exactly where satan's wrath ends...... and God's wrath begins.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170


Yes. There's the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan, and the wrath of God. The first two are what we've all experienced in this life so far.

6th Seal: the whole world goes black for an unspecified period of time......could be months.


The elites hide in fear in caves and declare:


"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB! For the great day of HIS WRATH HAS COME....." (Rev. 6: 16-17)


Note: The above declaration cannot possibly be written in more clear terms......even if you tried. God's wrath is about to begin.


The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm. They will remain on earth. The Chrisitians are caught up by angels.


(The 144,000 were not sealed from harm prior to the First Seal......but just prior to the 7th Seal.)


7th Seal: God's wrath......the trumpet and bowl judgements.......comprising approx. the final one to two years of Daniel's 70th week. The fifth trumpet judgement by itself is five months in duration.



First Five Seals: Satan's wrath as expressed through men, the man of evil when he comes, false prophet, etc.


Satan's wrath has been going on a long time......from several thousand years ago.....until today.....and will get even worse in the future.


God's wrath (7th Seal) is very distinct......and cannot be duplicated by either man or satan.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170


The wrath "has come" does not mean the same as "is now arriving". The 6th seal is simply when it is no longer deniable that they are experiencing the wrath of the Lamb... who is also God.

As for the trumpets, it is at the 7th when the Beast declares himself God. This is the midpoint of the 7-year treaty as stated by Daniel, as he is breaking the treaty at that point. Please see the chart at the end of this link for more: [link to www.fether.net]


So also for the final gathering. Notice that it says "from one end of HEAVEN to the other", not "the four corners of the earth". Remember also that this Discourse is to the Jews; the church had not yet been created or even revealed. Paul states:

1 Cor. 2:7-8
No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Rom 11:7 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

No its not talking about Israel
 Quoting: Blisbell 39226758


We have to be careful not to mix what Jesus said before the cross to what Paul said afterwards. Jesus came to "the lost sheep of Israel" and the first Christians were all Jews. But Paul was given direct revelation from Jesus of the "mystery" which is the Body of Christ, "neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 2:8-10).
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)

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