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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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Reinvigorated Being

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
What is something that doesn't exist. I'll take Video Pop Trivia for $800 Alex.
I wasn't born here but I got here as fast as I could! ;-)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I'm with you Op.

Jesus is not a wife beater.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18847658


Thanks! And this is a key point. We have been tested all these centuries by man and Satan, but Jesus will not beat His own Body/Bride. The wrath to come is stated by Daniel as having the purpose of purging Israel and punishing the world, neither of which applies to the church.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I'm with you Op.

Jesus is not a wife beater.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18847658


Thanks! And this is a key point. We have been tested all these centuries by man and Satan, but Jesus will not beat His own Body/Bride. The wrath to come is stated by Daniel as having the purpose of purging Israel and punishing the world, neither of which applies to the church.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Amen to that
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40528846


The Rapture is NOT "the Day of the Lord". Paul specified that the Departure is the first event, at which time the Restrainer is taken out of the way, and THEN the wicked one is revealed, all of which precedes the Day of the Lord.

Understand? The Rapture/Departure (apostasia) is NOT the Day of the Lord.
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"The wrath "has come" does not mean the same as "is now arriving". The 6th seal is simply when it is no longer deniable that they are experiencing the wrath of the Lamb... who is also God."

*************************************************


We are not appointed to wrath......namely God's wrath.


The 144,000 of Israel are not sealed prior to the First Seal........but just prior to the 7th Seal.


The 7th Seal is God's wrath.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The 5th Seal is the persecution by the man of evil, false prophet, and their followers. They will first go after Israel. God will protect a remnant in the wilderness. He will then go after the "offspring".....the Gentile Christians. (Rev 12: 7-17)


The 5th Seal begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.


This will go on for awhile.......and then God will cut it short (end it).......otherwise no flesh would be saved.


Then worldwide darkness.......6th Seal.


Then God's wrath.........7th Seal.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
We are not appointed to wrath......namely God's wrath.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170


I agree.

The 144,000 of Israel are not sealed prior to the First Seal........but just prior to the 7th Seal.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Agree again.

The 7th Seal is God's wrath.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Disagree, as I already explained. Since none of the seal judgments occur without the Lamb of God opening them, they are by definition the wrath of God.

The 5th Seal is the persecution by the man of evil, false prophet, and their followers. They will first go after Israel. God will protect a remnant in the wilderness. He will then go after the "offspring".....the Gentile Christians. (Rev 12: 7-17)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Every seal is opened by the Lamb; ergo every seal is part of the wrath of God. And of course Rev. 12 is long after all the seals.

The 5th Seal begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

No. Since the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week is marked by the Beast breaking the covenant and declaring himself God, and since this same event happens in Rev. at the 7th trumpet, then we have no choice but to conclude that the 7th trumpet is the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.

This will go on for awhile.......and then God will cut it short (end it).......otherwise no flesh would be saved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Agree.

Then worldwide darkness.......6th Seal.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

The sixth seal does say the sun goes black, but this is early in the judgments, not at the end.

Then God's wrath.........7th Seal.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Again, the wrath of God begins as the Lamb opens the first seal, since even the first one is clearly instigated by God.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 05/27/2013 08:20 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40528846


The Rapture is NOT "the Day of the Lord". Paul specified that the Departure is the first event, at which time the Restrainer is taken out of the way, and THEN the wicked one is revealed, all of which precedes the Day of the Lord.

Understand? The Rapture/Departure (apostasia) is NOT the Day of the Lord.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Nobody every said that the rapture IS the day of the Lord, but paul, in discussing the times and seasons of the rapture, shows in chapter 5 that he believes that the rapture will occur ON the day of the Lord when Christ comes back to pour out his wrath at the battle of Armageddon. Pre-tribbers can't seem to wrap their heads around this.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The Rapture is NOT "the Day of the Lord". Paul specified that the Departure is the first event, at which time the Restrainer is taken out of the way, and THEN the wicked one is revealed, all of which precedes the Day of the Lord.

Understand? The Rapture/Departure (apostasia) is NOT the Day of the Lord.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Nobody every said that the rapture IS the day of the Lord, but paul, in discussing the times and seasons of the rapture, shows in chapter 5 that he believes that the rapture will occur ON the day of the Lord when Christ comes back to pour out his wrath at the battle of Armageddon. Pre-tribbers can't seem to wrap their heads around this.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40528846


How in the world do you get that out of ch. 5?

Anti-pre-tribbers can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that you can't roll all prophetic events into one big lump.

And that video does equate the Day of the Lord with the Rapture.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 05/27/2013 08:42 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The Earth is Done when Christ returns

"It will cook with fervent Heat", The Pr-tribulation Rapture was an invention of the Jesuits,

Your focus would be better preparing oneself to work out what "the mark" of "The Beast" is, that is your next Biblical event,

Then The Plagues that will Fall onto Spiritual Babylon/The Beast and its worshipers and ALL of those who took the Mark, Read Revelation 14:6-12 The Three Angels Message and Babylon's Fall

revealing the Man of Sin before Christ's Return is one of the criteria that has to be fulfilled before Christ's return, That and The Gospel Being Taught to the Whole World
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The Earth is Done when Christ returns

"It will cook with fervent Heat", The Pr-tribulation Rapture was an invention of the Jesuits,

Your focus would be better preparing oneself to work out what "the mark" of "The Beast" is, that is your next Biblical event,

Then The Plagues that will Fall onto Spiritual Babylon/The Beast and its worshipers and ALL of those who took the Mark, Read Revelation 14:6-12 The Three Angels Message and Babylon's Fall

revealing the Man of Sin before Christ's Return is one of the criteria that has to be fulfilled before Christ's return, That and The Gospel Being Taught to the Whole World
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40597926


Did you even bother to read the OP and following discussion?

Slander is not a valid rebuttal.

And I already know what the Mark of the Beast will be, and will not allow you to derail a post about WHY I BELIEVE IN HE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. Remember that?
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"Disagree, as I already explained. Since none of the seal judgments occur without the Lamb of God opening them, they are by definition the wrath of God."


***************************************************


By definition?


Can you prove this? No outside sources....just Scripture.




re: "The Tribulation Period"


This is a manmade addition to Scripture, As such, it is similar to the many things Catholics have added to Scripture. It should not be used......as it will lead to error.


All that you have that describes the final seven years is:


Daniel's 70th week.


And much that we find in Revelation falls within Daniel's 70th week......but not necessarily all of it.


The First Seal of Revelation for example is quite general in nature. It could have been opened several hundred years ago. Likewise the Second Seal is very general in nature. The 3rd Seal however is quite specific......and has not taken place yet.


There is no evidence in Scripture that God's wrath must begin just prior to Daniel's 70th week.


Revelation Chp24 describes a time of great tribulation that begins at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. This should just be translated as a time of great trouble......without also assigning 3.5 years to it. The reason for this is that "The Great Tribulation Period" is not found in Scripture as a fixed 3.5 year period of time.


This sets off a great persecution of both Israel and Christians. God will cut it short (end it) after a period of time......otherwise no flesh would be saved.


It is easy to see how God can end it after a few years.........as it is not a fixed 3.5 year of time.



5th Seal..........persecution of Israel and the "offspring" (Gentile Christians)........is NOT God's wrath........but the wrath of Satan.......who would like to destroy Israel......and all humans for that matter.


Christ opens all 7 Seals.........but God's wrath does not actually begin until the 7th Seal.


The 144,000 of Isreal are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal.


Then a large group from all the nations is talked about standing in heaven. They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands. They are not spirits. These are the Christians who have been caught up by the angels.


Rev. 7: 9-17

Mt 24: 29-31
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"Disagree, as I already explained. Since none of the seal judgments occur without the Lamb of God opening them, they are by definition the wrath of God."

***************************************************

By definition?

Can you prove this? No outside sources....just Scripture.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Sure... just read the words "the wrath of the Lamb". Does even the first seal happen without the Lamb of God opening it? Show me in scripture where it says that the first 5 seals happen without God instigating them. Scripture itself is the proof.

If that isn't proof to you, then we can't even discuss this, because we have to agree that words have meaning and reading comprehension is a vital part of that.



re: "The Tribulation Period"

This is a manmade addition to Scripture, As such, it is similar to the many things Catholics have added to Scripture. It should not be used......as it will lead to error.
 Quoting: you

No, it is not, and I completely reject RCC teachings and changes. I know my scriptures and am not deluded or led astray, esp. by Catholic theology.

If names for concepts constitute "manmade addition to scripture", then you must also reject the Trinity and anything else that doesn't have a specific label. Keep in mind also that the scriptures were written in Hebrew and Greek, not English.


All that you have that describes the final seven years is:

Daniel's 70th week.


And much that we find in Revelation falls within Daniel's 70th week......but not necessarily all of it.
 Quoting: you

"All that you have"? That applies to you as well; I have plenty of scripture that talks about the unfulfilled prophecies. And since Daniel and Revelation both reach to the end of time, then they both describe the same seven years. I have the same scriptures you have.


The First Seal of Revelation for example is quite general in nature. It could have been opened several hundred years ago. Likewise the Second Seal is very general in nature. The 3rd Seal however is quite specific......and has not taken place yet.
 Quoting: you

No, you can't just make up when the seals were/are opened, or pick out the ones you personally wish already happened. "It could have been" is an argument you'd never accept from me.

There is no evidence in Scripture that God's wrath must begin just prior to Daniel's 70th week.
 Quoting: you

Straw man; nobody says God's wrath begins before God's wrath (the 70th week)! This is a nonsensical argument.

Revelation Chp24 describes a time of great tribulation that begins at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. This should just be translated as a time of great trouble......without also assigning 3.5 years to it. The reason for this is that "The Great Tribulation Period" is not found in Scripture as a fixed 3.5 year period of time.
 Quoting: you

There is no Rev. ch. 24. And you seem unaware of where Daniel's prophecy states that midway through the final 7 years the covenant is broken. Midway of 7 is 3.5. Simple math.


PLEASE read the material I've put in the OP and the articles I've linked to. I've covered all of this in detail. It is clear you have not bothered to read any of it.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"And of course Rev. 12 is long after all the seals."

*******************************************************


You have 7 Seals

For the 7th Seal........you have the 7 trumpet judgements.

As part of the 7th trumpet......the 7 bowl judgements....which are the final expression of God's wrath.


The 7th Trumpet is initially proclaimed in Rev. 11: 15-19..............but then you have an interlude......and Chapters 12 and 13 discuss other things.


The 7 bowls then begin much later in Chapter 16.


Chapters 12 and 13 are definitely talking about events related to the last half of Daniel's 70th week......the final 3.5 years......beginning at the midpoint.


Rev. 12: 6.........1260 days.
Rev 12: 14.........."where she is nourished for a time, times, and half a time."
Rev. 13: 5......."given authority to continue for 42 months."


The midpoint not only has the man of evil declaring himself God......but the abomination is set up......and people are required to take the mark. There is a great persecution. This is satan's wrath and does not take place at the 7th Seal as part of God's wrath.....nor after God's wrath.......but much earlier.





After the 7 bowl judgements......Christ returns with His heavenly army (us).......and destroys all the armies set against Him with a Word from His mouth. The man of evil and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. The millenial kingdom will then be ushered in.



Rev 12 is part of the 5th Seal.....involving persecution.......and the "cry of the martyrs." It runs from the midpoint for a few years until God ends it.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"And of course Rev. 12 is long after all the seals."

*******************************************************


You have 7 Seals

For the 7th Seal........you have the 7 trumpet judgements.

As part of the 7th trumpet......the 7 bowl judgements....which are the final expression of God's wrath.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

Everybody agrees that the 7th seal is when the trumpets begin, and the 7th trumpet is when the 7 bowls begin. But you are attempting to use this technicality to argue that the 7th seal somehow lasts the entire rest of the time. This is a fallacious conclusion to draw and ignores the clear sequential process: 7 seals, THEN 7 trumpets, THEN 7 bowls.

Again, it is clear that you have not bothered to read anything I've written in the OP or related links, which also include charts to help visualize the judgment sequence.


The midpoint not only has the man of evil declaring himself God......but the abomination is set up......and people are required to take the mark. There is a great persecution. This is satan's wrath and does not take place at the 7th Seal as part of God's wrath.....nor after God's wrath.......but much earlier.
 Quoting: you

I have already said that all the seals, trumpets, and bowls are the wrath of God, and I'm tired of you just repeating yourself.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 05/27/2013 12:32 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Paul is not the Messiah.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"Sure... just read the words "the wrath of the Lamb". Does even the first seal happen without the Lamb of God opening it? Show me in scripture where it says that the first 5 seals happen without God instigating them. Scripture itself is the proof."


*****************************************


I agree that Christ opens all the 7 Seals.......but I do not see the word wrath mentionned at all in Chapter 5. Can you show it to me???


Wrath is not mentionned until the 6th Seal......when the great ones hide in fear in caves and declare that God's wrath is about to begin.



I looked when he opened the sixth seal, and hehold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, hid themsleves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"



The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm. They will remain on earth.

Then a great number from all the nations which no one could number is seen standing in heaven. They are clothed in robes and have palm branches in their hands. These are the Christians caught up by the angels......just prior to God's wrath.


The above position is not well known......but is referred to as Pre-Wrath........the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the church.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Paul is not the Messiah.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


Duh.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Paul is not the Messiah.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


Duh.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Jesus was never preaching pre-trib rapture. Duh
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I agree that Christ opens all the 7 Seals.......but I do not see the word wrath mentionned at all in Chapter 5. Can you show it to me???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

What part of "the wrath of the Lamb HAS COME" means "it's just about to start"? I can't "show" you simple logic.



The above position is not well known......but is referred to as Pre-Wrath........the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the church.
 Quoting: you

I know of the pre-wrath view; it's better known than you think. I just reject it, for all the reasons you refuse to read/comprehend in my OP and related articles.

Please stop acting like a troll and merely repeating yourself.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 05/27/2013 12:48 PM
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Paul is not the Messiah.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


Duh.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Jesus was never preaching pre-trib rapture. Duh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


I've already said that Jesus was not talking about ANY rapture of the church, since the church was not revealed fully until Pentecost.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Paul is not the Messiah.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


Duh.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Jesus was never preaching pre-trib rapture. Duh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


I've already said that Jesus was not talking about ANY rapture of the church, since the church was not revealed fully until Pentecost.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The Church is His body, he would have known. And told about.
Jenny
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Great thread OP!

Santos Bonacci is the world's foremost expert on the Pre-Trib topic. Check him out!!!
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"
"And since Daniel and Revelation both reach to the end of time, then they both describe the same seven years. I have the same scriptures you have."


************************************************


Yes OP.......they both reach to the point where Christ establishes His Kingdom.

However there is no way to prove that all of the Revelation must be squished into Daniel's 70th week.

As I mentionned before, the first two seals are very general in nature. It would be virtually impossible to determine with certainty when they were broken. These could have been broken many years ago.


Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy........this prophecy was given to Daniel in response to his intercession for his people Israel. It describes how long the punishment will last......how long God will hide his face from them.


Revelations however was given by Christ to the Church.....to give Christians a glimpse into the future......of end time events.


While there are many shared events......these two are not the exact same things........and all of Revelations does not necessarily have to be squished into Daniel's 70th week.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The Church is His body, he would have known. And told about.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


The church did not begin until Pentecost. His disciples didn't even understand that he had to be killed and rise from the dead, much less that some entity that was both Jew and Gentile would be created.

Nobody before Paul used the term "Body of Christ" or "Bride of Christ". Paul made it clear that the church was a "mystery" that had been hidden until then.
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Great thread OP!

Santos Bonacci is the world's foremost expert on the Pre-Trib topic. Check him out!!!
 Quoting: Jenny 4830983


Thank you! hf
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The Church is His body, he would have known. And told about.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


The church did not begin until Pentecost. His disciples didn't even understand that he had to be killed and rise from the dead, much less that some entity that was both Jew and Gentile would be created.

Nobody before Paul used the term "Body of Christ" or "Bride of Christ". Paul made it clear that the church was a "mystery" that had been hidden until then.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Again, Paul was NOT more knowledgable than Christ. Repent
Troubled Waters...

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Paul is not the Messiah.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


Duh.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Jesus was never preaching pre-trib rapture. Duh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


Oh really? Then please explain these scriptures to me?

Luke 21:25-28
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh


Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
DUST TO GLORY!!!
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The Church is His body, he would have known. And told about.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


The church did not begin until Pentecost. His disciples didn't even understand that he had to be killed and rise from the dead, much less that some entity that was both Jew and Gentile would be created.

Nobody before Paul used the term "Body of Christ" or "Bride of Christ". Paul made it clear that the church was a "mystery" that had been hidden until then.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Again, Paul was NOT more knowledgable than Christ. Repent
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 38537724


What does that have to do with anything?
DUST TO GLORY!!!
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
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"And since Daniel and Revelation both reach to the end of time, then they both describe the same seven years. I have the same scriptures you have."

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Yes OP.......they both reach to the point where Christ establishes His Kingdom.

However there is no way to prove that all of the Revelation must be squished into Daniel's 70th week.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 40260170

After the letters to the churches, Jesus told John to "come up here" and see "what must take place after this". So we have the church age in the letters, then what follows the church age.

I have shown in my linked articles that I believe the seals may be in a gap between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation, so I have not said that "all of Revelation must be squished into Daniel's 70th week". But we are told clearly that the 2 witnesses preach for 3.5 years, and that they are killed at the 6th trumpet, and the midpoint is the 7th. Please, please check the chart I made; it will help. I hope.

While there are many shared events......these two are not the exact same things........and all of Revelations does not necessarily have to be squished into Daniel's 70th week.
 Quoting: you

You can keep asserting this, but that won't make it true. Read the OP and links. Please.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)

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