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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 10:40 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
This is real simple, the rapture definitely comes after the tribulation..

You can twist the words however you want but that is a fact.

What part of AFTER do you not understand?

Matthew 24:29

immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

^ Pretty much sums it up..
 Quoting: NittyGritty


YOU twist the words. What part of "escape all these things" don't YOU understand?

Been over Mat. 24 many times already. Also pointed out that THE ENTIRETY OF PROPHECY IS NOT LIMITED TO MAT. 24.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 10:57 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Revelation was written as a Manual for Martyrdom for the Saints. That is why we are told to endure and overcome.

And here, the Father tells of the fate of the cowardly and faithless Christians,

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:7-8



The book of Revelation was written and addressed to believers, not unbelievers. Throughout, it is addressed to 'the saints' and 'his servants'. The reference here is to cowardly and faithless believers. This is confirmed by the word 'but', directly contrasting those deserving such a fate with the believers who overcome. Well done OP, you are setting up the sheep to fall.

Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:


He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Revelation was written as a Manual for Martyrdom for the Saints. That is why we are told to endure and overcome.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49436164

Jesus Himself said what he was revealing to John: what was, what is, and what will be. The churches already knew very well what martyrdom was; they already knew the struggle of good and evil. They already knew what it meant to endure.

Allegorizing or spiritualizing scripture is how people make it mean whatever they want. And I'll never understand why such people care what anyone believes, since you get to make it up and disregard the explicit words and context.

And regardless of who the Rev. was addressed to, its content is not all about just those people. It clearly encompasses the unbelieving world, for the judgments are against them and not the Bride.

Does anybody read the OP or Summary I keep posting? I guess I'll do it again.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


=============================================================​=========

[link to www.fether.net]

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 11:11 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
This is real simple, the rapture definitely comes after the tribulation..

You can twist the words however you want but that is a fact.

What part of AFTER do you not understand?

Matthew 24:29

immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

^ Pretty much sums it up..
 Quoting: NittyGritty


YOU twist the words. What part of "escape all these things" don't YOU understand?

Been over Mat. 24 many times already. Also pointed out that THE ENTIRETY OF PROPHECY IS NOT LIMITED TO MAT. 24.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


What part of the lessons contained within Daniel 3 do you not understand that one can be standing in the very hottest of fires and if God has purpose for you not one hair on your head will be burnt?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 11:19 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
What part of the lessons contained within Daniel 3 do you not understand that one can be standing in the very hottest of fires and if God has purpose for you not one hair on your head will be burnt?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401


Did I ever even hint that I didn't believe God could protect his people in the midst of trials if he so chooses?

Did you read anything I've said about all these various arguments already?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
MHz

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11/04/2013 11:31 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Jesus Himself said what he was revealing to John: what was, what is, and what will be. The churches already knew very well what martyrdom was; they already knew the struggle of good and evil. They already knew what it meant to endure.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

The Church couldn't exist until the whole NT was written because it holds prophecy about certain tribulation that are yet to come. Luke:21:12:24 was fulfilled was it not? The mention of a letter in 2Thess:2 is a reference to Revelation saying that the time was 'soon'.

Allegorizing or spiritualizing scripture is how people make it mean whatever they want. And I'll never understand why such people care what anyone believes, since you get to make it up and disregard the explicit words and context.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode
Who is the 6th king in the vision and explanation of Re:17? (Rome)

Re:17:10:
And there are seven kings: five are fallen,
and one is,
and the other is not yet come;
and when he cometh,
he must continue a short space.

And regardless of who the Rev. was addressed to, its content is not all about just those people. It clearly encompasses the unbelieving world, for the judgments are against them and not the Bride.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

It is for all the gentiles that fit this verse, basically everyone that ever heard of God has a relationship that God will use to judge them by.

Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.

Does anybody read the OP or Summary I keep posting? I guess I'll do it again.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Read it and replied the first time I came across it. You should trim the links as comments on what they contain is something you refuse to rely to. If you're a little bored go and reply to them, if nothing else it will be new to you.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
What part of the lessons contained within Daniel 3 do you not understand that one can be standing in the very hottest of fires and if God has purpose for you not one hair on your head will be burnt?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401


Did I ever even hint that I didn't believe God could protect his people in the midst of trials if he so chooses?

Did you read anything I've said about all these various arguments already?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Yes when one teaches that God is going to snatch people away so that they aren't in the same locale of the tribulation, then they are not teaching correctly how He will protect those He chooses.

One can be in the midst of tribulation and still escape the effects of such.

To meet The Lord in the air; air is breath of life as in spirit, Paul uses the word translated as clouds to mean groups of people in multiple instances.

When Christ's foot hits the Mt of Olives ALL will be changed into spirit and the birds figuratively will pick over all the lifeless flesh that remains.

There isn't anyone going anywhere unless they die the way man always has and to teach saftey of the soul by way of snatching is exactly what the false prophets tried to teach the Israelites that they were going to be just fine. When in truth God told them explicitly through His prophets that they were going to go into the captivity of the king of babylon.

Those that did not go into captivity as instructed by God learned many hard lessons for thier disobedience.

The king of babylon of the end times is satan. The son of perdition. He will be cast out and cause a falling away before he is revealed.

1 Corinthians 10:11
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Revelation was written as a Manual for Martyrdom for the Saints. That is why we are told to endure and overcome.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49436164

Jesus Himself said what he was revealing to John: what was, what is, and what will be. The churches already knew very well what martyrdom was; they already knew the struggle of good and evil. They already knew what it meant to endure.

Allegorizing or spiritualizing scripture is how people make it mean whatever they want. And I'll never understand why such people care what anyone believes, since you get to make it up and disregard the explicit words and context.

And regardless of who the Rev. was addressed to, its content is not all about just those people. It clearly encompasses the unbelieving world, for the judgments are against them and not the Bride.

Does anybody read the OP or Summary I keep posting? I guess I'll do it again.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


norespectputin
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Yes when one teaches that God is going to snatch people away so that they aren't in the same locale of the tribulation, then they are not teaching correctly how He will protect those He chooses.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401

Not true at all. Scripture itself teaches "escapism"; did God leave Lot in Sodom? Did God leave Noah without an ark? Or were they both "snatched out" before the wrath of God destroyed all the wicked? And what did Jesus mean by "pray that you will be counted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS"? Or what did Jesus mean when he told John that one of the churches "will be kept out of the hour of trial to come upon the whole inhabited world"?

I and others in this thread have given ample evidence from scripture that the pre-trib view is not only a viable, rational view, but that it is NOT "dangerous", heretical, uninformed, or hateful. The critics, on the other hand, have been the most bitter, aggressive, angry people. One wonders why anybody's view of eschatology should elicit such responses.


To meet The Lord in the air; air is breath of life as in spirit, Paul uses the word translated as clouds to mean groups of people in multiple instances.
 Quoting:

Your opinion. And in my opinion, your opinion ignores context and spiritualizes whatever doesn't fit a preconceived conclusion.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
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Yes when one teaches that God is going to snatch people away so that they aren't in the same locale of the tribulation, then they are not teaching correctly how He will protect those He chooses.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401

Not true at all. Scripture itself teaches "escapism"; did God leave Lot in Sodom? Did God leave Noah without an ark? Or were they both "snatched out" before the wrath of God destroyed all the wicked? And what did Jesus mean by "pray that you will be counted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS"? Or what did Jesus mean when he told John that one of the churches "will be kept out of the hour of trial to come upon the whole inhabited world"?

I and others in this thread have given ample evidence from scripture that the pre-trib view is not only a viable, rational view, but that it is NOT "dangerous", heretical, uninformed, or hateful. The critics, on the other hand, have been the most bitter, aggressive, angry people. One wonders why anybody's view of eschatology should elicit such responses.


To meet The Lord in the air; air is breath of life as in spirit, Paul uses the word translated as clouds to mean groups of people in multiple instances.
 Quoting:

Your opinion. And in my opinion, your opinion ignores context and spiritualizes whatever doesn't fit a preconceived conclusion.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


In those examples none were snatch out of this world.

Gods Words provides wisdom on how to carry oneself through the tribulation so that one may be used by God; called to Pentecost before the synagogues of satan. If one thinks they are going to fly out and mis the troubles then it would be easy to miss Gods wisdom left as mannah.

People get bitter because they see others teaching doctrines and leaving wakes that will ultimately steer other more unknowing folks onto the rocks and into the arms of satan. They get bitter because they love God more than the man espousing those false doctrines. I am guilty of the same in the past, but what we miss is that we can still love the man knowing God is keeping him and those like Him protected from the one and only unforgivable sin. That sin being to refuse the Holy Spirit to speak through them when delivered up. Many love God but don't have the discipline to stand before satan on behalf of our Father. That's reality.

You see because when the Holy Spirit speaks through the people that learned those lessons that the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia you refference taught, then many who where decieved by fallen angels running around in spiritual (celestial) bodies will realize they where decieved and possibly repent of that sin.

Have you figured out what those two churches taught yet or understand what is the key to the house of David? Anyone who loves God and wishes to please Him might make finding truth in these subjects the churches taught a priority post haste.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
In those examples none were snatch out of this world.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401

They were snatched out of the judgment of God, not preserved within it. That was the point you tried to make and I refuted.



People get bitter because they see others teaching doctrines and leaving wakes that will ultimately steer other more unknowing folks onto the rocks and into the arms of satan.
 Quoting:


This itself is a smear, and one of the primary reasons I created this thread. There are so many lies being spread about the pre-trib view that I decided to put what we really believe in one spot so people could read about it if they want to.

There is NO EXCUSE to be bitter about any prophecy view. Our view is NOT dangerous, since it does NOT teach that Christians will not suffer, or that God will not protect us in the midst of suffering. Those are all straw men you keep burning.

I'm looking for Jesus; who are you looking for?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Once4All
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In those examples none were snatch out of this world.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401

They were snatched out of the judgment of God, not preserved within it. That was the point you tried to make and I refuted.



People get bitter because they see others teaching doctrines and leaving wakes that will ultimately steer other more unknowing folks onto the rocks and into the arms of satan.
 Quoting:


This itself is a smear, and one of the primary reasons I created this thread. There are so many lies being spread about the pre-trib view that I decided to put what we really believe in one spot so people could read about it if they want to.

There is NO EXCUSE to be bitter about any prophecy view. Our view is NOT dangerous, since it does NOT teach that Christians will not suffer, or that God will not protect us in the midst of suffering. Those are all straw men you keep burning.

I'm looking for Jesus; who are you looking for?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


God's wisdom! I like that. Many come up with lame excuses

for not following Jesus.
John 11:35 Jesus wept.

[link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

Have you given good points today?

EVERYONE who calls upon the LORD JESUS will be saved! [Romans 10:13]


Jesus Christ will return as King of all kings and Lord of all lords. hf
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In those examples none were snatch out of this world.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23946401

They were snatched out of the judgment of God, not preserved within it. That was the point you tried to make and I refuted.



People get bitter because they see others teaching doctrines and leaving wakes that will ultimately steer other more unknowing folks onto the rocks and into the arms of satan.
 Quoting:


This itself is a smear, and one of the primary reasons I created this thread. There are so many lies being spread about the pre-trib view that I decided to put what we really believe in one spot so people could read about it if they want to.

There is NO EXCUSE to be bitter about any prophecy view. Our view is NOT dangerous, since it does NOT teach that Christians will not suffer, or that God will not protect us in the midst of suffering. Those are all straw men you keep burning.

I'm looking for Jesus; who are you looking for?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Revelation 19:12-14

The Word of God

Good day to you and sincere blessings in your looking.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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God's wisdom! I like that. Many come up with lame excuses

for not following Jesus.
 Quoting: Once4All


hf
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Following Gods command in Revelation 18:4 is the most pressing issue at the moment. The fall of Babylon the Great is at the doors. Those who are wise will follow the instructions of the LORD. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2g02heaven? 744180


We haven't even reached chapter 4. Nothing like what is described in all those chapters between 4 and 18 has happened yet.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


That's the thing with eschatological interpretation, if it's wrong than everything about the end will be wrong. The book of Revelation isn't in chronological order.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 744180

And your view is infallible?

Everybody thinks they have a lock on Revelation, but everybody is probably wrong at one point or another. You can assert that Rev. isn't in chronological order AT ALL, but I can also assert that Rev. is chronological according to the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls. Further, I can assert that nothing like even the Seal judgments has happened yet. So regardless of your assertions or mine, the fact is that these things have not taken place.

I've given my view of Rev. over and over; now you've given yours.


A proper understanding of the time of the end will make everything come into focus. But the whole counsel of God is needed in order to understand it. You can't understand the last book of the Bible, unless you understand the 65 books that come before it. The prophetic scriptures are especially needed for understanding.
 Quoting:

I totally agree with this. The problem is that you are no more authoritative than I am, to say which view is "proper".
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



The first thing that Jesus tells the disciples on the Mount of Olives after they ask Him the 3 questions regarding

1. the destruction of the temple (when shall these things be)

and

2. the sign of your coming

and

3. the end of the age


is this:

"Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:4


Jesus said it all right there. The end will be a time of great deception. And I refuse to be one of the simple ones. The book of Proverbs tells us this (twice):


"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished."
Proverbs 22:3

There is danger on the horizon and if you have been "watching and praying" you can correctly interpret the signs of the times. Therefore God has given instructions to those who are prudent and see what is coming. If you live in Babylon the Great the instruction is this:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4

The call to come out of Babylon is also repeated 9 times in Jeremiah 50-51! I can't force you to drink my friend all I can do is lead you to the water. It's the Holy Spirit that has to take the things of Christ and make them real unto you.

But I can tell you right now that sitting here and debating when the "rapture" will occur is not edifying to the body of Christ. God says His people perish for a lack of knowledge. And many will perish in Babylon the Great because they failed to take the command of God seriously.

Yes the rapture is coming and Revelation 14 tells us when it comes. But at the moment the 3 most pressing issues for the body of Christ is:

1) spreading the gospel message to the ends of the earth
2) being a true disciple of Jesus Christ
3) being a student of the word of God. Especially paying attention to what the prophets have to say.



I love you my friend and we do worship the same great God. I just pray that the Holy Spirit would open up the eyes of your understanding to receive the command God has given.

The biblical precedent has been established my friend. Everything that has been written down in the word of God was written for our learning. Thus we can see that according to past events recorded in the scriptures, not many people truly understand the times and seasons in which they live in. And because that is the case, only a remnant truly understand and thus act accordingly to what the will of God has declared. I can list account after account in the word of God which establishes that truth. But I would just advise you to ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom regarding Babylon the Great and what He wants you to do. Ask and you shall receive my friend. Amen.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
The first thing that Jesus tells the disciples on the Mount of Olives after they ask Him the 3 questions ...
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760

Been over this.

But I can tell you right now that sitting here and debating when the "rapture" will occur is not edifying to the body of Christ.
 Quoting:

Then why are you here debating me about it?

My OP expressly states that my purpose was not to start a debate but simply to tell what pre-trib actually is, to counter the lies being spread about it.


I love you my friend and we do worship the same great God. I just pray that the Holy Spirit would open up the eyes of your understanding to receive the command God has given.
 Quoting:

I pray the same for you.

But you must understand that we are both fallible. Your interpretation is no more authoritative than mine.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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The first thing that Jesus tells the disciples on the Mount of Olives after they ask Him the 3 questions ...
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760

Been over this.

But I can tell you right now that sitting here and debating when the "rapture" will occur is not edifying to the body of Christ.
 Quoting:

Then why are you here debating me about it?

My OP expressly states that my purpose was not to start a debate but simply to tell what pre-trib actually is, to counter the lies being spread about it.


I love you my friend and we do worship the same great God. I just pray that the Holy Spirit would open up the eyes of your understanding to receive the command God has given.
 Quoting:

I pray the same for you.

But you must understand that we are both fallible. Your interpretation is no more authoritative than mine.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm not debating anything with you my friend. I'm just declaring the vision of God.

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Proverbs 29:18


Bottom line is you will die if you stay inside Babylon the Great. Yes, you will still receive your reward in heaven and ultimately that is all that matters. But rewards and crowns will be left unclaimed because you failed to fulfill all that God desired for your life. If you don't get out of Babylon before the destruction comes, you won't get to experience everything that God wanted for you. The impact you could of had on peoples life will never be realized if you stay inside of Babylon the Great.

That is why it is imperative to follow the command of God given in Revelation 18:4. Disregarding the command of God is disobedience my friend. Let us always remember the famous words that Samuel spoke to Saul.

"And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry."
1 Samuel 15:22-23


We must obey my friend! We must obey the command of God!


"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4


It's not a suggestion my friend. It's a command! Failure to heed the command will relegate you to one of the simple ones mentioned in Proverbs 22:3 and 27:12

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished."


Don't be wise in your own eyes! Be prudent! Understand the signs of the times! Listen to God my friend! He will direct our paths! Hallelujah!

And FYI, God gives those who are wise 2 options in regards to where we can flee when we heed His command to come out of Babylon.

1) Our own home country because Babylon is a land of immigrants.

"Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest: for fear of the oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people, and they shall flee every one to his own land." Jeremiah 50:16

2) Jerusalem!

"Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind." Jeremiah 51:50


There are many reasons why Jerusalem would be the best option. But again, you have to let the LORD lead you in regards to what option He wants you to take.

But just to declare why Jerusalem is the best option we have to take a look at Matthew 24 and Revelation 12. Jesus gives specific instructions for those who are in Judea when the abomination of desolation happens. Those instructions are to flee to the mountains. If your living in Judea at that time the mountains would be to the east, toward Jordan.

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Matthew 24:15-16

Those who are in this company will be part of the wilderness deliverance spoken about in Revelation 12. They will be hid for the 1260 days in order that they will not have to endure the great tribulation! Hallelujah! The wilderness is the place of safety during the great tribulation! And you can be part of that company if you obey the voice of God. Amen.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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I'm not debating anything with you my friend. I'm just declaring the vision of God.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760

If you're not debating, then neither am I, so there was no reason for you to tell me to stop. It takes two to tango.

As for declaring the vision of God, everybody thinks they're right. You have to allow people to disagree without thinking they need your correction.


Bottom line is you will die if you stay inside Babylon the Great.
 Quoting:

I am NOT inside Babylon the Great. You are basically accusing me of being part of a mystery religious system run by Satan.

Stop lecturing me about what you personally suppose I will or will not receive from God. I mean, that is seriously arrogant on your part.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/04/2013 02:54 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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I'm not debating anything with you my friend. I'm just declaring the vision of God.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760

If you're not debating, then neither am I, so there was no reason for you to tell me to stop. It takes two to tango.

As for declaring the vision of God, everybody thinks they're right. You have to allow people to disagree without thinking they need your correction.


Bottom line is you will die if you stay inside Babylon the Great.
 Quoting:

I am NOT inside Babylon the Great. You are basically accusing me of being part of a mystery religious system run by Satan.

Stop lecturing me about what you personally suppose I will or will not receive from God.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You are inside of Babylon the Great. Your flag declares it. Like I said originally when your eschatological interpretation is wrong, it makes everything else wrong.

I advise you to get off the horse your on and start looking more deeply into the prophetic scriptures my friend. When we lack knowledge we perish. God said it, I didn't.

By Gods grace I have led you to the waters, now you have to drink. If you are wise you will consider how fruitful this conversation was. If not, that's on you. God bless your soul my friend. Amen.
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You are inside of Babylon the Great. Your flag declares it. Like I said originally when your eschatological interpretation is wrong, it makes everything else wrong.

I advise you to get off the horse your on and start looking more deeply into the prophetic scriptures my friend. When we lack knowledge we perish. God said it, I didn't.

By Gods grace I have led you to the waters, now you have to drink. If you are wise you will consider how fruitful this conversation was. If not, that's on you. God bless your soul my friend. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


No. The US is not Babylon the Great.

YOUR eschatological interpretation is wrong.

I advise you to get off your high horse and learn some humility.

You have led me nowhere, and certainly God's grace had nothing to do with that. By his grace I stand.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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By the way...


YOU are showing a US flag too!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
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You are inside of Babylon the Great. Your flag declares it. Like I said originally when your eschatological interpretation is wrong, it makes everything else wrong.

I advise you to get off the horse your on and start looking more deeply into the prophetic scriptures my friend. When we lack knowledge we perish. God said it, I didn't.

By Gods grace I have led you to the waters, now you have to drink. If you are wise you will consider how fruitful this conversation was. If not, that's on you. God bless your soul my friend. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


No. The US is not Babylon the Great.

YOUR eschatological interpretation is wrong.

I advise you to get off your high horse and learn some humility.

You have led me nowhere, and certainly God's grace had nothing to do with that. By his grace I stand.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


cruise

Outrageous irony is outrageous. 5a

[link to dictionary.reference.com]
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Speak of the devil...
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


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[link to www.fether.net]

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I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Speak of the devil...
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


potkettle
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Speak of the devil...
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


potkettle
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211



potkettle
potkettle
potkettle
potkettle
potkettle
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 03:04 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And he keeps bumping my thread!

giggle
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
You are inside of Babylon the Great. Your flag declares it. Like I said originally when your eschatological interpretation is wrong, it makes everything else wrong.

I advise you to get off the horse your on and start looking more deeply into the prophetic scriptures my friend. When we lack knowledge we perish. God said it, I didn't.

By Gods grace I have led you to the waters, now you have to drink. If you are wise you will consider how fruitful this conversation was. If not, that's on you. God bless your soul my friend. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


No. The US is not Babylon the Great.

YOUR eschatological interpretation is wrong.

I advise you to get off your high horse and learn some humility.

You have led me nowhere, and certainly God's grace had nothing to do with that. By his grace I stand.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



Babylon the Great is still a "Mystery" to you my friend. I pray that you will seek the LORD for wisdom and revelation in regards to the Mystery of Babylon the Great. Only He can unravel it for you and make the truth become real to you. I'm your friend. Not your enemy. Thus the reason why God has led me to this thread, in order that you might be led to the water to drink. God bless you.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And he keeps bumping my thread!

:giggle:
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Is that a portrait? 5a

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