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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 03:08 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
By the way...


YOU are showing a US flag too!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You have to obey God my friend. God hasn't told me to leave yet, but when He does I am gone. My destination is Jerusalem. God has a great work that He is going to accomplish thru me there! Praise His holy name forever and ever!
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Babylon the Great is still a "Mystery" to you my friend. I pray that you will seek the LORD for wisdom and revelation in regards to the Mystery of Babylon the Great. Only He can unravel it for you and make the truth become real to you. I'm your friend. Not your enemy. Thus the reason why God has led me to this thread, in order that you might be led to the water to drink. God bless you.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


You are in what you say I'm supposed to get out of, and you think yourself infallible in interpreting scripture.

Well, at least you're bumping my thread so more people will learn that the lies about the pre-trib view are completely baseless. Thanks for that.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
By the way...


YOU are showing a US flag too!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You have to obey God my friend. God hasn't told me to leave yet, but when He does I am gone. My destination is Jerusalem. God has a great work that He is going to accomplish thru me there! Praise His holy name forever and ever!
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


God has not told me to leave. And if you think you're the "messenger", then lead by example and get out of the US before you lecture me about anything. This is sheer hypocrisy on your part.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Once4All
The Truth Is Clear To Everyone!

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11/04/2013 03:12 PM

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God's wisdom! I like that. Many come up with lame excuses

for not following Jesus.
 Quoting: Once4All


hf
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


cross55
John 11:35 Jesus wept.

[link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

Have you given good points today?

EVERYONE who calls upon the LORD JESUS will be saved! [Romans 10:13]


Jesus Christ will return as King of all kings and Lord of all lords. hf
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 03:13 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God's wisdom! I like that. Many come up with lame excuses

for not following Jesus.
 Quoting: Once4All


hf
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


cross55
 Quoting: Once4All


apple
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 03:15 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
By the way...


YOU are showing a US flag too!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You have to obey God my friend. God hasn't told me to leave yet, but when He does I am gone. My destination is Jerusalem. God has a great work that He is going to accomplish thru me there! Praise His holy name forever and ever!
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


God has not told me to leave. And if you think you're the "messenger", then lead by example and get out of the US before you lecture me about anything. This is sheer hypocrisy on your part.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


When God directs me to leave I will leave. Just like He told Noah to get into the arc, God will tell me to depart for Jerusalem. Just like God told Lot to get out of Sodom, God will tell me exactly when I must depart Babylon the Great.

Obedience is the only way my friend! I'm not going to act in accordance to my will, only the Fathers will. I know the truth and the truth has set me free.

Until God directs me to leave Babylon the Great, I will continue to sound the alarm like Ezekiel. The sword is coming my friend. And when it strikes the world will be plunged into chaos. Amen.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 03:17 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
When God directs me to leave I will leave. Just like He told Noah to get into the arc, God will tell me to depart for Jerusalem. Just like God told Lot to get out of Sodom, God will tell me exactly when I must depart Babylon the Great.

Obedience is the only way my friend! I'm not going to act in accordance to my will, only the Fathers will. I know the truth and the truth has set me free.

Until God directs me to leave Babylon the Great, I will continue to sound the alarm like Ezekiel. The sword is coming my friend. And when it strikes the world will be plunged into chaos. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


God has not directed me to leave.

Neither has God told you to order me to leave.

You must obey God and not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think.

The truth is that you came here because you oppose the pre-trib rapture view, nothing more.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 03:19 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
THERE IS NO PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.

1. The lie that Christians will not go through the tribulation.



The pre-tribulation rapture teaches that Christians will not go through the tribulation. However, it is very clear from scripture that the “Son of man” does not come to gather together his elect until after the tribulation.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
-Matthew 24: 29-31


Who are the elect? We can see how the word "elect" is used in other verses:

“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.”

-Romans 8:33

“Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;”
-Titus 1:1

It is clear from the context of Matthew 24 and from other verses in the Bible that the elect are God’s chosen people (Christians). It is also clear that Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the rapture. Therefore if the rapture does not happen until after the tribulation, Christians will go through the tribulation.



2. The lie that the tribulation is the wrath of God on this world.



The reason the pre-tribulation rapture teaches that Christians will not go through the tribulation is that it teaches a false definition of the word “tribulation." It teaches that “the tribulation” is when God pours out his wrath on the unsaved world. However, that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible uses the word tribulation 22 different times. For sake of time we cannot look at all 22 times it appears but let’s look at a few examples of when the word is used:

“Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.”
-Matthew 13:21

“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”
-Romans 8:35

“Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.”

-2 Corinthians 1:4

“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

-Revelation 1:9

Tribulation could not mean the wrath of God on the un-saved because in most of the verses that the word is used it is God’s people going through the tribulation. Tribulation is the state of being persecuted or afflicted. So, when you are persecuted you are in tribulation. Christians will go through the tribulation because the tribulation of the end-times is not the wrath of God on the world but the persecution of Satan and the Antichrist on believers.



“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”
-Matthew 24:15-22



The Bible says that the elect will go through the tribulation; we already mentioned that the elect are saved believers.

When tribulation or persecution is being inflicted, it is generally done to a specific person or group of people. Even when the Bible speaks of God casting people into tribulation it is to a specific group of people.

“Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.”

-Revelation 2:20-22

When God pours out his wrath it will not be the “tribulation” because it will not be directed at any specific person or group; it will be poured out on the entire world. A group of people will be spared from his wrath and those are the believers. However, his wrath will not be directed at anyone in particular but rather at the whole world.

“And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”
-Revelation 16:1

In the book of Luke, Jesus says that the day God pours out his wrath on this world will be as it was in the days of Noah. Sin will abound, and God’s people will be spared, but he will punish the whole world!

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”
-Luke 17:26-27

Christians will not be on the earth when God pours out his wrath because the Bible says:

“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” -1Thessalonians 5:9

The wrath of God does not come until after the rapture, and the rapture does not come until after the tribulation.



“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

-Luke 17:28-30

Just like in the same day that Lot came out of Sodom the city was destroyed. That is how it will be in the day that the Lord Jesus Christ is revealed as soon as he takes the Christians out of the world he will begin to pour out his wrath.



3. The lie of the imminent return of Jesus Christ.



The pre-tribulation rapture teaches that the return of Christ is imminent, meaning it can happen at any moment. It says that there is nothing that needs to happen in order for Jesus Christ to return. Scripture proves that his imminent return is simply not true. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ cannot happen until first there come a falling away, and second the “man of sin, the son of perdition” (the Antichrist) be revealed.



“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

-2 Thessalonians 2:1-4



So, what is “the day of Christ”? The Bible says:



“Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

-1 Corinthians 1:8

The day of Christ is in the “end” and on that day we will be blameless.



“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”

-Philippians 1:6



In the day of Christ, God will be done performing the work he has begun in us. So when will all this be?



“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

- 1 John 3:2



The day that the Lord Jesus Christ returns is the same day that we will be like him. Then the work of sanctification that God is performing in us will be done. Therefore the day of Christ is the day that Jesus Christ returns. According to 2 Thessalonians, the day of Christ cannot come until two things happen first: a great falling away and the man of sin being revealed. This means that the day of Christ (i.e. the day that the Lord Jesus Christ returns) is not imminent.



4. The lie that there is no sign of the return of Jesus Christ.



Jesus was asked two questions by his disciples about the end times. The first question was, “when shall these things be?” and the second question was, “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” The Lord Jesus Christ answered both of these questions, which is why we have the Olivet Discourse.



Jesus’ answer to the first question: “when shall these things be?”



“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.”

-Matthew 24:4

Notice that the Bible says that Jesus answered their question. The pre-tribulation rapture says that there are no signs, and that we cannot know when these things will be, but since Jesus answered their questions we obviously can know these things.



“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.”

-Matthew 24:5-6



Jesus said when you hear many saying that they are the Christ, and when there are rumors of wars, the end is still not yet!



“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.”

-Matthew 24:7-8



When there are many famines and pestilences and earthquakes, and when nature begins to do strange things, then you are at the beginning of the end.

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

-Matthew 24:9-14



When you begin to be persecuted and the gospel is preached in all the world, then you will know you are at the end. The very next thing that will happen is the revealing of the Anti-Christ.

Jesus just answered their first question. He told them it will not be when there are false Christs and rumors of wars. It will not be when there are famines and natural disasters. He told them the end will come when you are being persecuted and the Antichrist is revealed. He did not give them a date but he did tell them when these things will be.



Jesus’ answer to the second question: “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”



“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

-Matthew 24:15-21

When you see the Antichrist, that is when the great tribulation will begin. Notice the rapture has not yet happened, so Christians will be living through this tribulation, which is the persecution of the believers by Satan and the Antichrist.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

-Matthew 24:29-31



After the tribulation the Sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. This will be our sign that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming. Luke gives us the same description.



“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

-Luke 21:25-28



Luke says that when you see these signs, look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh. Jesus just answered their second question and told them what the signs of his coming will be.

After he was done answering their questions Jesus begins to teach them a parable:

“And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.”

-Luke 21:29-31

We are able to look at the signs of the weather and see when the seasons are changing and a new season is coming. So we can also look for the signs that he has told us of, and we can know that the time is near that he will be coming. Also, in regard to knowing the time of his coming Jesus said:



“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

-Matthew 24:36



This is true; we do not know exactly what day, and we especially do not know what hour of the day he is coming back. We can see the signs of his coming and prepare for his appearing.



“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

-1 Thessalonians 5:1-6



The pre-tribulation rapture teaches that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is going to come on us with no announcement - that he will come as a thief in the night. Paul said that the day should not overtake us as a thief, but we are to watch and be sober! What are we watching for? The signs that Jesus told us to watch for!



5. The lie of the secret return of Jesus Christ.



The pre-tribulation rapture teaches that one day we will all be taken out of this world and those who will be left behind will wonder what happened to the rest of us. Did UFO’s take them? Where did they all go? This is the secret return of Christ and this is not taught in the Bible.

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

-Mark 13:24-27



“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

-Revelation 1:7



“Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

-1 Corinthians 15:51-54



The Bible makes it clear that when Jesus comes back to rapture the believers, the world will take notice. They will notice the sun and moon being darkened; they will notice the stars falling and the heavens being shaken. They will hear the last trump. Even more the Bible says that all kindreds of the earth will see him coming in the clouds with their own eyes! No, those who are left behind will not be scratching their heads wondering where we went. They will know exactly what happened, and they will wail because they will know that now after the tribulation which they inflicted on the Christians of the world, the wrath of God will be poured out upon them.



6. The lie of the Holy Spirit being taken out of the world.



“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” -2 Thessalonians 2:7



The pre-tribulation rapture uses 2 Thessalonians 2:7 to teach that the Holy Spirit is what is keeping the Anti-Christ from coming. It teaches that when the Holy Spirit is removed out of the world, we will be taken up (because God has promised never to leave us nor forsake us.) However there are some problems with this argument. There are a few reasons as to why this passage is not talking about the Holy Spirit:

(1) If you believe that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world at the rapture, but you also believe that people are still getting saved after the rapture (which the pre-tribulation rapture does teach), then you believe that people can get saved without the Holy Spirit.



“Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

-2 Corinthians 1:21-22



(2) The Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead. What people fail to realize is that just as much as God the Father is God, and just as much as the Lord Jesus Christ is God, the Holy Spirit of God is God! Now, God is omnipresent, so how can you remove God?



“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” -1 John 5:7



(3) The pre-tribulation rapture says that 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is referring to the rapture because when the Holy Spirit leaves the earth, then Christians will also leave the earth. However, every time the rapture is mentioned in the Bible there is a reference made to the sun, the moon, and the stars, or to the clouds. The passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 and its context does not make a reference to any of these things.



(4) The best reason as to why this verse is not talking about the Holy Spirit is because verse 7 says, “he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” You cannot refer to someone as “he” without first mentioning who the “he” is. A pronoun must have an antecedent. The antecedent is a noun to which the pronoun is referring. In the context of this verse, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the book of 2 Thessalonians anywhere before 2 Thessaluians 2:7. Therefore the Holy Spirit cannot be the antecedent of "he." The truth is that those who teach the pre-tribulation rapture have taken this verse out of context and twisted it to prove their ridiculous teaching.



So who is the “he” mentioned in verse 7?



Well the only person mentioned that “he” could be talking about is the Antichrist.



“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Here we have the antecedent)

Who (referring to the Antichrist) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he (referring to the Antichrist) as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he (referring to the Antichrist) is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he (referring to the Antichrist) might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (referring to the man of sin) who now letteth will let, until he (referring to the man of sin) be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked (referring to the Antichrist) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”

-2 Thessalonians 2:3-8

Now that we know that verse 7 is referring to the "man of sin," we need to know a few things about the "man of sin" before we can understand what verse 7 is talking about.



Let’s look at a few things about the "man of sin:"



(1) The Bible says he was wounded as it were to death and his deadly wound was healed.



“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (This is the Antichrist)

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, (This is the Devil) and his seat, and great authority.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.”

-Revelation 13:1-3



(2) The Bible says he ascended out of the bottomless pit.



“And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.” -Revelation 11:7



(3) The Bible says that he “was, and is not”



“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

-Revelation 17:8-11



What does “is not” mean? Let’s look at examples of other times the words “is not” are used in the Bible.



“And Jacob their father said unto them, Me have ye bereaved of my children: Joseph is not, and Simeon is not, and ye will take Benjamin away: all these things are against me.”

-Genesis 42:36



“The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

- Job 27:19



“In Ramah was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.”

-Matthew 2:18



The words “is not” are used in the scripture to describe someone who is dead.



What we have learned is that the Anti-Christ was healed from a deadly wound, he came out of the bottomless pit (which is hell), and he is described as “is not” which means he is dead.



So, let’s go back to 2 Thessalonians 2:7:



“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (this means Satan has power and influence over the man of sin) only he who now letteth will let, (The man of sin,the Antichrist, is being used by Satan but he is still a hindrance in the way) until he be taken out of the way. (Referring to when the Antichrist receives his deadly wound and dies) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Satan has full control of this mans body and he ascends out of the bottomless pit) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

-2 Thessalonians 2:7 -8



7. The result of the lie of the Pre-tribulation Rapture.



The Devil and the Anti-Christ would like nothing more than for people to be confused about the events of the end times. When Independent Fundamental Baptists agree with the doctrines of sinful books and movies like “Left Behind” and heretics like Tim Lahaye, they are doing a great disservice to the cause of our Lord Jesus Christ. Even worse, they are furthering the cause of the Antichrist. Christians will be looking for the rapture instead of the Antichrist and will not be ready for the things to come. We need to understand that the next prophetic event to take place is worldwide persecution of Christians. If Christians cannot live for God now, how will they live for God during great persecution (the tribulation). The Bible says:



“If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?”

- Jeremiah 12:5



Many churches believe that we do not have much time because Jesus Christ could return at any moment. For this reason they get sucked into the mentality of getting people saved at any cost. We must understand what the Bible says about the things to come. Then we will not only get people saved, we will also prepare ourselves spiritually. We would strengthen our families and churches in separation from the world and holiness. Instead we have independent Baptist churches getting people saved, but they are as worldly and liberal as any mega-church down the street! They are trying to save as many people as possible, even if it means having lower standards or not preaching all of the counsel of God in order not to offend or turn anyone away. However, if they have not already, they will soon stop giving the gospel and will only be concerned about keeping and entertaining people in their services. The pews may be filled, but they are liberal and spiritually dead. We must get the lost world saved, but we must also grow in grace and prepare ourselves for what could happen in the very near future.

The pre-tribulation rapture lets you believe you can live a perfect little life, buy all your fun toys, and wear all the stylish clothes. It allows you to believe that you can go on exciting vacations and have as much fun as you can imagine. Then one day with no warning you will be taken up into the presence of God almighty. The truth is, we might suffer more than we would like for the cause of our Lord Jesus Christ. We must be ready for what the Bible says will happen in the end times. Jesus said to watch! However if you believe that we cannot watch or that we have nothing to watch for, then you have believed the LIE of the pre-tribulation rapture.



“And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

-Mark 13:37
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


=============================================================​=========

[link to www.fether.net]

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
When God directs me to leave I will leave. Just like He told Noah to get into the arc, God will tell me to depart for Jerusalem. Just like God told Lot to get out of Sodom, God will tell me exactly when I must depart Babylon the Great.

Obedience is the only way my friend! I'm not going to act in accordance to my will, only the Fathers will. I know the truth and the truth has set me free.

Until God directs me to leave Babylon the Great, I will continue to sound the alarm like Ezekiel. The sword is coming my friend. And when it strikes the world will be plunged into chaos. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


God has not directed me to leave.

Neither has God told you to order me to leave.

You must obey God and not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think.

The truth is that you came here because you oppose the pre-trib rapture view, nothing more.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


We're all supposed to tell the truth.

The US is not Babylon.

You need to admit that you are fallible. And that you only came to this thread because you oppose the pre-trib view. Please stop pretending to be some messenger God sent to correct me. Just stop.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 03:40 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


We're all supposed to tell the truth.

The US is not Babylon.

You need to admit that you are fallible. And that you only came to this thread because you oppose the pre-trib view. Please stop pretending to be some messenger God sent to correct me. Just stop.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't. God says in Amos 3:7:

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."



Thus with the conviction of the Holy Spirit I can boldly declare the vision of God. And before you start saying I am not prophet, let me declare what the scriptures say. All of those who are identified in Christ are prophets, priests, and kings. Everything that Christ has, we have! Every office that Christ fulfilled, we fulfill! We are all 1 body with Christ as the head.

And to further hammer home the point, Revelation 19:10 tells us:

"for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


Therefore Paul tells those who understand their identity in Christ to prophecy according to their measure of faith. (Romans 12:6)

So my friend, I again advise you to consider the fruitfulness of our conversation. Seeds have been planted, seeds have been watered, and now I pray that God will give the increase. Amen my friend?
McMiller
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
When God directs me to leave I will leave. Just like He told Noah to get into the arc, God will tell me to depart for Jerusalem. Just like God told Lot to get out of Sodom, God will tell me exactly when I must depart Babylon the Great.

Obedience is the only way my friend! I'm not going to act in accordance to my will, only the Fathers will. I know the truth and the truth has set me free.

Until God directs me to leave Babylon the Great, I will continue to sound the alarm like Ezekiel. The sword is coming my friend. And when it strikes the world will be plunged into chaos. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


God has not directed me to leave.

Neither has God told you to order me to leave.

You must obey God and not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think.

The truth is that you came here because you oppose the pre-trib rapture view, nothing more.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760




Hello DoUwant2go2heaven?, please contact me or add me as a friend. hbmm(at)telus.net
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 03:41 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
When God directs me to leave I will leave. Just like He told Noah to get into the arc, God will tell me to depart for Jerusalem. Just like God told Lot to get out of Sodom, God will tell me exactly when I must depart Babylon the Great.

Obedience is the only way my friend! I'm not going to act in accordance to my will, only the Fathers will. I know the truth and the truth has set me free.

Until God directs me to leave Babylon the Great, I will continue to sound the alarm like Ezekiel. The sword is coming my friend. And when it strikes the world will be plunged into chaos. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


God has not directed me to leave.

Neither has God told you to order me to leave.

You must obey God and not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think.

The truth is that you came here because you oppose the pre-trib rapture view, nothing more.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760




Hello DoUwant2go2heaven?, please contact me or add me as a friend. hbmm(at)telus.net
 Quoting: McMiller


Will do my friend. God bless you.
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 03:43 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


We're all supposed to tell the truth.

The US is not Babylon.

You need to admit that you are fallible. And that you only came to this thread because you oppose the pre-trib view. Please stop pretending to be some messenger God sent to correct me. Just stop.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't. God says in Amos 3:7:

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."



Thus with the conviction of the Holy Spirit I can boldly declare the vision of God. And before you start saying I am not prophet, let me declare what the scriptures say. All of those who are identified in Christ are prophets, priests, and kings. Everything that Christ has, we have! Every office that Christ fulfilled, we fulfill! We are all 1 body with Christ as the head.

And to further hammer home the point, Revelation 19:10 tells us:

"for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


Therefore Paul tells those who understand their identity in Christ to prophecy according to their measure of faith. (Romans 12:6)

So my friend, I again advise you to consider the fruitfulness of our conversation. Seeds have been planted, seeds have been watered, and now I pray that God will give the increase. Amen my friend?
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


What a load of crap. You sound like the usual clown with delusions of grandeur. What did your vision entail?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 03:46 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760

I read the same Word of God and, as another fallible human being, come to a different conclusion. Which of us is right can only be judged by God. So stop presuming that your interpretations are infallible. Please.

And if we're all prophets, then I must not be wrong, according to your reasoning.

And I again advise you to consider what God may be trying to tell YOU. Who can say that he didn't bring you here to be told the truth about Jesus' coming for us in the air?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 03:57 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760

I read the same Word of God and, as another fallible human being, come to a different conclusion. Which of us is right can only be judged by God. So stop presuming that your interpretations are infallible. Please.

And if we're all prophets, then I must not be wrong, according to your reasoning.

And I again advise you to consider what God may be trying to tell YOU. Who can say that he didn't bring you here to be told the truth about Jesus' coming for us in the air?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



All I am doing is casting the vision of God my friend. Where there is no vision, the people perish. It's as simple as that. That is Gods word, not mine.


As far as the second coming is concerned, that is a given. I know that I will be caught up to meet our great God and Savior Jesus Christ when He appears in power and great glory! Hallelujah!

But before that happens, Babylon the great will be destroyed.


Thus the reason why God commands "His people" to come out of her before it happens.


"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4


We must get the order of events right if we are to know what to do in the last days. Amen.
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 04:05 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God has told me to declare the truth. Ultimately the decision to flee Babylon the Great is a personal one.

"My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."
Jeremiah 51:45

Only those who obey God will understand. All I am doing is declaring the vision. What you do with it is on your own head.


But the biblical precedent declares that not many people will understand nor obey the command of God. Only a remnant understands and obeys God. That's the cold hard truth. Tragic, but the truth none the less.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


We're all supposed to tell the truth.

The US is not Babylon.

You need to admit that you are fallible. And that you only came to this thread because you oppose the pre-trib view. Please stop pretending to be some messenger God sent to correct me. Just stop.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't. God says in Amos 3:7:

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."



Thus with the conviction of the Holy Spirit I can boldly declare the vision of God. And before you start saying I am not prophet, let me declare what the scriptures say. All of those who are identified in Christ are prophets, priests, and kings. Everything that Christ has, we have! Every office that Christ fulfilled, we fulfill! We are all 1 body with Christ as the head.

And to further hammer home the point, Revelation 19:10 tells us:

"for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


Therefore Paul tells those who understand their identity in Christ to prophecy according to their measure of faith. (Romans 12:6)

So my friend, I again advise you to consider the fruitfulness of our conversation. Seeds have been planted, seeds have been watered, and now I pray that God will give the increase. Amen my friend?
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


What a load of crap. You sound like the usual clown with delusions of grandeur. What did your vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


The vision of God is declared in the scriptures. Jesus Christ told us this concerning the end of the age,

"See, I have warned you about this ahead of time."
Matthew 24:25

Jesus Christ has laid out the vision of the end from Genesis to Revelation. But only a prudent, diligent, and wise student of the word will piece together all the pieces in order to get a clear vision of what is to come.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

As students of the word we have to dig into the treasure chest of the scriptures and mine out the gems that God has scattered throughout His word. When we do this the end will not be a fuzzy haze as it is to most, but it will make perfect sense to those who have labored in studying what is to come.

Amen.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 04:09 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
All I am doing is casting the vision of God my friend. Where there is no vision, the people perish. It's as simple as that. That is Gods word, not mine.


As far as the second coming is concerned, that is a given. I know that I will be caught up to meet our great God and Savior Jesus Christ when He appears in power and great glory! Hallelujah!

But before that happens, Babylon the great will be destroyed.


Thus the reason why God commands "His people" to come out of her before it happens.


"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4


We must get the order of events right if we are to know what to do in the last days. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


People "cast" spells, but not visions from God. You are only giving your opinion.

And the US is STILL not Babylon. Knock it off with the pious act, please.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
DoUwant2go2heaven?
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11/04/2013 04:17 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
All I am doing is casting the vision of God my friend. Where there is no vision, the people perish. It's as simple as that. That is Gods word, not mine.


As far as the second coming is concerned, that is a given. I know that I will be caught up to meet our great God and Savior Jesus Christ when He appears in power and great glory! Hallelujah!

But before that happens, Babylon the great will be destroyed.


Thus the reason why God commands "His people" to come out of her before it happens.


"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4


We must get the order of events right if we are to know what to do in the last days. Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


People "cast" spells, but not visions from God. You are only giving your opinion.

And the US is STILL not Babylon. Knock it off with the pious act, please.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No need to play the semantics game my friend. I love you my friend. Amen.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 04:25 PM
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This isn't a game.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 04:36 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I have supported what the OP says and yet the OP has attacked me and misunderstood my posts. I'm done here.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/04/2013 04:39 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I have supported what the OP says and yet the OP has attacked me and misunderstood my posts. I'm done here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


I have not attacked you. You keep saying opposite things; I have no idea what you believe anymore. If I misunderstood, maybe you could have tried explaining.

Also, I cannot memorize every AC number, and most of them attack me continually. You might consider choosing a name so I don't get you mixed up with others.

I have one week of ban immunity left, and then everyone can dance on my grave and post whatever they like without interference from me in my own thread.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/04/2013 04:49 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 06:21 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
...


We're all supposed to tell the truth.

The US is not Babylon.

You need to admit that you are fallible. And that you only came to this thread because you oppose the pre-trib view. Please stop pretending to be some messenger God sent to correct me. Just stop.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't. God says in Amos 3:7:

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."



Thus with the conviction of the Holy Spirit I can boldly declare the vision of God. And before you start saying I am not prophet, let me declare what the scriptures say. All of those who are identified in Christ are prophets, priests, and kings. Everything that Christ has, we have! Every office that Christ fulfilled, we fulfill! We are all 1 body with Christ as the head.

And to further hammer home the point, Revelation 19:10 tells us:

"for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


Therefore Paul tells those who understand their identity in Christ to prophecy according to their measure of faith. (Romans 12:6)

So my friend, I again advise you to consider the fruitfulness of our conversation. Seeds have been planted, seeds have been watered, and now I pray that God will give the increase. Amen my friend?
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


What a load of crap. You sound like the usual clown with delusions of grandeur. What did your vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


The vision of God is declared in the scriptures. Jesus Christ told us this concerning the end of the age,

"See, I have warned you about this ahead of time."
Matthew 24:25

Jesus Christ has laid out the vision of the end from Genesis to Revelation. But only a prudent, diligent, and wise student of the word will piece together all the pieces in order to get a clear vision of what is to come.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

As students of the word we have to dig into the treasure chest of the scriptures and mine out the gems that God has scattered throughout His word. When we do this the end will not be a fuzzy haze as it is to most, but it will make perfect sense to those who have labored in studying what is to come.

Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


Do you usually ignore people when they ask you a question? What did the vision entail?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49446211
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11/04/2013 06:25 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
...


I'm a sinner saved by the grace of God my friend. Of course I am fallible. But the word of God isn't. God says in Amos 3:7:

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."



Thus with the conviction of the Holy Spirit I can boldly declare the vision of God. And before you start saying I am not prophet, let me declare what the scriptures say. All of those who are identified in Christ are prophets, priests, and kings. Everything that Christ has, we have! Every office that Christ fulfilled, we fulfill! We are all 1 body with Christ as the head.

And to further hammer home the point, Revelation 19:10 tells us:

"for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


Therefore Paul tells those who understand their identity in Christ to prophecy according to their measure of faith. (Romans 12:6)

So my friend, I again advise you to consider the fruitfulness of our conversation. Seeds have been planted, seeds have been watered, and now I pray that God will give the increase. Amen my friend?
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


What a load of crap. You sound like the usual clown with delusions of grandeur. What did your vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


The vision of God is declared in the scriptures. Jesus Christ told us this concerning the end of the age,

"See, I have warned you about this ahead of time."
Matthew 24:25

Jesus Christ has laid out the vision of the end from Genesis to Revelation. But only a prudent, diligent, and wise student of the word will piece together all the pieces in order to get a clear vision of what is to come.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

As students of the word we have to dig into the treasure chest of the scriptures and mine out the gems that God has scattered throughout His word. When we do this the end will not be a fuzzy haze as it is to most, but it will make perfect sense to those who have labored in studying what is to come.

Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


Do you usually ignore people when they ask you a question? What did the vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


I just saw your last post. If you are a real Prophet of the Lord, you will have received a vision but you seem to very averse to answering this question. Is this because you did not in fact receive a vision but just like to play the role of Prophet?
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 06:25 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
...


What a load of crap. You sound like the usual clown with delusions of grandeur. What did your vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


The vision of God is declared in the scriptures. Jesus Christ told us this concerning the end of the age,

"See, I have warned you about this ahead of time."
Matthew 24:25

Jesus Christ has laid out the vision of the end from Genesis to Revelation. But only a prudent, diligent, and wise student of the word will piece together all the pieces in order to get a clear vision of what is to come.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

As students of the word we have to dig into the treasure chest of the scriptures and mine out the gems that God has scattered throughout His word. When we do this the end will not be a fuzzy haze as it is to most, but it will make perfect sense to those who have labored in studying what is to come.

Amen.
 Quoting: DoUwant2go2heaven? 32632760


Do you usually ignore people when they ask you a question? What did the vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


I just saw your last post. If you are a real Prophet of the Lord, you will have received a vision but you seem very averse to answering this question. Is this because you did not in fact receive a vision but just like to play the role of Prophet?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211


Fixed.
MHz

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11/04/2013 06:58 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
What did your vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211

The vision the Bible inspires is there is a preview version that is 6 chapters long and the rest of the Bible has to do with the prophecy and fulfillment of the two bruises mentioned in Ge:3:15.

What is of most interest to us is the prophecy that deals with the bruise to the head. Since it is a finite set of passages it doesn't matter where you start, only that you do and you cover all the relevant material before you decide what the final picture will look like.
Anonymous Coward
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11/04/2013 07:01 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
What did your vision entail?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49446211

The vision the Bible inspires is there is a preview version that is 6 chapters long and the rest of the Bible has to do with the prophecy and fulfillment of the two bruises mentioned in Ge:3:15.

What is of most interest to us is the prophecy that deals with the bruise to the head. Since it is a finite set of passages it doesn't matter where you start, only that you do and you cover all the relevant material before you decide what the final picture will look like.
 Quoting: MHz


I was referring to this,

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. Numbers 12:6
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11/05/2013 04:08 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Planes carrying skydivers collide over Wisconsin — pilots, skydivers in miracle escape

Over Superior

WisconSIN

9 skydivers
2 pilots
9 / 11

12,000 feet

evening
10 parachuted, 1 landed a plane
10/11 - 10th November evening

One plane landed at Richard Bong Airport
Bong- Korean name meaning "mythical bird - Phoenix"
Swedish bang meaning "noise"
Richard - "powerful ruler", "hard ruler", "strong ruler"

1 plane (bird) landed with a pilot (man)
Sky fall - queen and bond

Mike Robinson, a skydiving instructor who was caught standing outside his aircraft with three others when the trailing plane struck, recalled the moment his Cessna 182's right wing ripped off, "in a ball of fire."

"There was no warning, it was just a huge loud bang and the wing was gone and we were in free fall. It just happened," he described the mid-air collision to the Daily News.

All survived.
Miraculous escape
Anonymous Coward
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11/05/2013 05:21 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
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