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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/09/2013 07:21 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Oh you poor people who struggle with basic concepts because you lack knowledge freely given to those that believe the restored gospel.

Can you even properly define what a soul is and it's relation to spirit and body?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28130893


Who are you? And speaking of spirit, have you noticed what was going on here before your comment?

Please take your holier-than-thou attitude elsewhere. We are in no need of another "teacher" who wants to put us in our place.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Hi keep,
I just sent an email to your web site.
Thanks again for sharing and your message of comfort . I really seanced the moving of the Holy Spirit last night

Keep looking up

Ed
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/09/2013 02:06 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Hi keep,
I just sent an email to your web site.
Thanks again for sharing and your message of comfort . I really seanced the moving of the Holy Spirit last night

Keep looking up

Ed
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314


Awesome. hf

I'll go check. Going to be busy later today so I'll do that right away.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2013 06:04 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Oh you poor people who struggle with basic concepts because you lack knowledge freely given to those that believe the restored gospel.

Can you even properly define what a soul is and it's relation to spirit and body?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28130893


Who are you? And speaking of spirit, have you noticed what was going on here before your comment?

Please take your holier-than-thou attitude elsewhere. We are in no need of another "teacher" who wants to put us in our place.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Such a simple question rose such a tirade, is that the best you can do when your grasp of a basic concept alludes you?

Simply expressed your Soul is your Body and Spirit together.

Mathematically Soul = Body + Spirit

There simple really .. Here are some parting thoughts .. Thread: I just converted to Catholicism - Ask me a Question! (Page 8)
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2013 07:41 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time on, nor ever shall be.

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."

****************************

1. Pre-Tribbers adhere to a fixed 3.5 year "Great Tribulatio Period." Because of this......they cannot have God ending the persecution when He so chooses. It must run the course of their 3.5 period. They tend to jump over this verse or speculate that God will shorten the daylight.....as if the forces of anti-christ cannot kill people at night !!!


2. They explain away "elect" as not meaning we Christians......but as being a Jewish thing.......or perhaps the "tribulation saints." This conflicts with Scripture......as there will be no new people coming to Christ when the man of evil shows up. The door to salvation will at that time be closed.......as God will send a strong delusion upon the world. Those who have spent a lifetime in unbelief and rebellion will be turned over to it.


"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

"And for this reason, God will send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should BELIEVE THE LIE, that they ALL MAY BE CONDEMNED who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Pre-tribbers must have "tribulation saints" (i.e. new people coming to Christ). They must have them to explain away such verses from Scripture as these:



"And the dragon (Satan) was enraged with the woman (Israel), and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (Gentile Christians), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


"Then one of the elders answered saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? And I said to him, "Sir, you know." "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Oh you poor people who struggle with basic concepts because you lack knowledge freely given to those that believe the restored gospel.

Can you even properly define what a soul is and it's relation to spirit and body?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28130893


Who are you? And speaking of spirit, have you noticed what was going on here before your comment?

Please take your holier-than-thou attitude elsewhere. We are in no need of another "teacher" who wants to put us in our place.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Such a simple question rose such a tirade, is that the best you can do when your grasp of a basic concept alludes you?

Simply expressed your Soul is your Body and Spirit together.

Mathematically Soul = Body + Spirit

There simple really .. Here are some parting thoughts .. Thread: I just converted to Catholicism - Ask me a Question! (Page 8)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28130893


Oh please. You came here with a condescending attitude and you know it. If my response was a "tirade", your comment was flame bait. And you know it. You're just here to stir the pot. Even now you continue your insults while trying to play innocent. And it annoys you that I'm not gullible.

I DON'T GIVE A RIP what YOUR personal definition of anything is; this thread is about the timing of the Rapture.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 08:31 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time on, nor ever shall be.

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."

****************************

1. Pre-Tribbers adhere to a fixed 3.5 year "Great Tribulatio Period." Because of this......they cannot have God ending the persecution when He so chooses. It must run the course of their 3.5 period. They tend to jump over this verse or speculate that God will shorten the daylight.....as if the forces of anti-christ cannot kill people at night !!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418


You have clearly not bothered to read the OP, Summary, or any of the conversation that has gone on, or maybe you just don't understand any of it.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 08:33 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


=============================================================​=========

[link to www.fether.net]

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.


************************************


Why do you capitilize "The Great Tribulation?"
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Why do you capitilize "The Great Tribulation?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418


Same reason I capitalize the Rapture; they are labels or handy terms that have specific meanings and facilitate discussion. The GT is understood by almost everyone who has any familiarity with eschatology to refer to the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week, while the term "great tribulation" is from Jesus' referral to that same midpoint when people see "the abomination of desolation"... a term he took from Daniel's prophecy.
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And now, AC, it's your turn to answer a question.

Why did you start off with an attitude? "You pre-tribbers must..." was not irenic and not intended to converse with civility.

I've already noted the behavior of all the critics who have come to this thread and speculated on what could possibly motivate people to only attach this particular view of the timing of the Rapture. You can hunt for that conversation if you're interested. But what I'm asking is why you personally decided to come here and make mocking judgments of "you pre-tribbers". What kind of Christian talks like that?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 09:39 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
General note:

Unless God decides otherwise, tomorrow my ban immunity runs out and there's a good chance I will be unable to even view the site... a practice which defies reason since those who cannot view the site cannot click on the ads or contribute to page views, both of which earn revenue for the site.

So if I don't respond, rest assured it's because I've been banned.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2013 09:51 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And now, AC, it's your turn to answer a question.

Why did you start off with an attitude? "You pre-tribbers must..." was not irenic and not intended to converse with civility.

I've already noted the behavior of all the critics who have come to this thread and speculated on what could possibly motivate people to only attach this particular view of the timing of the Rapture. You can hunt for that conversation if you're interested. But what I'm asking is why you personally decided to come here and make mocking judgments of "you pre-tribbers". What kind of Christian talks like that?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


OK..........sorry about the choice of words.


I followed Pre-Trib for about three or four years as well.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2013 09:52 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I have to go to work shortly but let me share some of the following:

I have been taught that not everyone will be given an incorruptible body...those that go through the tribulation and survive until the and remain in their earthly bodies to populate the earth. I was told that there is a chance that some of this group turns against the Lord when Satan is again loosened after his 1000 year binding.

I have also been taught that we who are in the first resurrection receive a body like Christ's - incorruptible.
But there are those who, at the second resurrection - are resurrected in their earthly bodies only and are then judged and tossed into the Lake of Fire.

I think the OP mentioned that Jesus opens up the first seal, so if this is termed a judgement, then we would not be here for that since it is termed as such.

Hope you are not banned OP. This is a good debate, even if it does get heated.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 09:57 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And now, AC, it's your turn to answer a question.

Why did you start off with an attitude? "You pre-tribbers must..." was not irenic and not intended to converse with civility.

I've already noted the behavior of all the critics who have come to this thread and speculated on what could possibly motivate people to only attach this particular view of the timing of the Rapture. You can hunt for that conversation if you're interested. But what I'm asking is why you personally decided to come here and make mocking judgments of "you pre-tribbers". What kind of Christian talks like that?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


OK..........sorry about the choice of words.


I followed Pre-Trib for about three or four years as well.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418


Fair enough. hf

But please understand that my stated purpose was not to debate all the different eschatological views, but to counter lies being spread about mine.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 10:01 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I have to go to work shortly but let me share some of the following:

I have been taught that not everyone will be given an incorruptible body...those that go through the tribulation and survive until the and remain in their earthly bodies to populate the earth. I was told that there is a chance that some of this group turns against the Lord when Satan is again loosened after his 1000 year binding.

I have also been taught that we who are in the first resurrection receive a body like Christ's - incorruptible.
But there are those who, at the second resurrection - are resurrected in their earthly bodies only and are then judged and tossed into the Lake of Fire.

I think the OP mentioned that Jesus opens up the first seal, so if this is termed a judgement, then we would not be here for that since it is termed as such.

Hope you are not banned OP. This is a good debate, even if it does get heated.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34104390


Thanks, nicely put. If it's God's will, I will stay.

I believe that all believers, all who are "in Christ", will be Raptured before the 1st Seal is opened. I also believe that after this event, many will finally turn to Christ, but they will not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as we have had--- just as it was with the righteous before Jesus came. This is why they must "endure", and why their salvation will hinge on their treatment of "the least of these" per Jesus' account of the sheep/goats judgment at the end of the Tribulation. And those who are found to have "overcome" will remain in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth during the Millennium.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2013 10:11 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Why do you capitilize "The Great Tribulation?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418


Same reason I capitalize the Rapture; they are labels or handy terms that have specific meanings and facilitate discussion. The GT is understood by almost everyone who has any familiarity with eschatology to refer to the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week, while the term "great tribulation" is from Jesus' referral to that same midpoint when people see "the abomination of desolation"... a term he took from Daniel's prophecy.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Mt 24 talks about a time of great tribulation (small letters) which begins when the abomination is set up.


This great tribulation is from the anti-christ......it is not God's Wrath.


It runs its course for awhile........and then God cuts it short (ends it).....otherwise no flesh would be saved.


It is not correct to expand this time of great tribulation by the man of evil............into a 7 year "Tribulation Period" from God.


Changing Daniel's 70th week to "The Tribulation Period" can lead to some serious false conclusions. It will have believers feeling that they will be taken out prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 10:15 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Mt 24 talks about a time of great tribulation (small letters) which begins when the abomination is set up.


This great tribulation is from the anti-christ......it is not God's Wrath.


It runs its course for awhile........and then God cuts it short (ends it).....otherwise no flesh would be saved.


It is not correct to expand this time of great tribulation by the man of evil............into a 7 year "Tribulation Period" from God.


Changing Daniel's 70th week to "The Tribulation Period" can lead to some serious false conclusions. It will have believers feeling that they will be taken out prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418


I've gone over this multiple times. And I "changed" nothing.

And once again, as I said above: "But please understand that my stated purpose was not to debate all the different eschatological views, but to counter lies being spread about mine."

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/10/2013 10:16 AM
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Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2013 10:19 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
OK sorry........will try not to post, debate, etc.

Have a nice week and I hope that you do not get banned.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/10/2013 12:05 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
OK sorry........will try not to post, debate, etc.

Have a nice week and I hope that you do not get banned.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418


hf

And here's this week's article at a prophecy site I mostly agree with (though I strongly disagree with the writer on other topics):

[link to gracethrufaith.com]
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Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2013 10:07 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And here's this week's article at a prophecy site I mostly agree with (though I strongly disagree with the writer on other topics):

[link to gracethrufaith.com]

Great link and well thought out, thanks Keep. Are you still here?

KEEP. LOOK. UP

Ed

goodnews
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/11/2013 10:08 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
And here's this week's article at a prophecy site I mostly agree with (though I strongly disagree with the writer on other topics):

[link to gracethrufaith.com]

Great link and well thought out, thanks Keep. Are you still here?

KEEP. LOOK. UP

Ed

goodnews
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314


So far!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/11/2013 10:42 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
God apparently wants me here another month; got 25 karma just in time and will be here till Dec. 11. hf
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2013 11:01 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
That is great news and answered prayer and thanks for your kind emails
Ed
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
That is great news and answered prayer and thanks for your kind emails
Ed
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314


You're very welcome, and thank you for your prayers!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
In another thread Thread: If you havn't noticed nor felt it...we're pretty much fucked. There is some bad shit going down. I'm being called satanic for not worshiping the KJV translation, and this diversion stemmed from the KJVOs hating on the pre-trib Rapture.

I'm not going to be like them and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but one can only marvel at people's ability to hate and slander while considering themselves righteous. No wonder Jesus said, "When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on the earth?"
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/11/2013 05:59 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
A comment at another website noting the viciousness of attacks on only the pre-trib view of the Rapture:
One way we see that Satan hates the Rapture is the kind of response those who teach this receive for their efforts – much of it from the modern church. It goes beyond the aspect of a basic disagreement of points of view, but often gets very personal. Rapture proponents are often portrayed as some kind of unstable lunatics despite the fact that most present very articulate and well-reasoned arguments to support it. And some of the detractors are downright nasty, as if their unpleasantness adds credibility to their arguments!

I’ve studied Bible Prophecy for over a decade and, in my opinion, the Rapture is the best concept which reconciles seemingly contradictory Scriptures and is totally consistent with God’s actions of saving over his own in the dire times of the Old Testament by extraordinary means(rescuing Noah and his family from the Flood, Lot and his family from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, saving the Israelites from the famine in the time of Joseph, and from oppression in Egypt in Moses’ time, etc,). Why should we then doubt that he will soon do the same for his faithful as this world becomes more and more irretrievably evil?

As these last of the Last Days pass, expect to see resistance to the truth of the Rapture increase – because the devil knows his time is short!
 Quoting:

It raises the two most critical points of this debate:

1. Pre-trib reconciles two sets of scriptures which otherwise would be in conflict.

2. Pre-trib matches God's habit in the OT of taking out the righteous before raining down judgment on the wicked.

Many have made charts of the lists side-by-side, showing that Jesus cannot fulfill all of them at the same arrival. And as this comment states, we have the righteous being removed in every case where God judges the wicked.

But more and more it is becoming obvious that people don't mind the concept of a Rapture as long as it only comes after the church has suffered the wrath of the Lamb. We've been over how wrong that is on so many levels, so no need to repeat it.

So the attacks on this thread are nothing unusual, and sadly indicative of the times in which we live. At a time when the world is in the most dire need of a unified church, it is flying apart at the seams. Were I to try and identify the most common root of such division, it would surely be pride, regardless of the topic. People want to earn their salvation, or their righteousness, or otherwise have something to brag about--- such as "enduring" and "overcoming" a time that Christians of no other era have had to suffer.

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
This is an hour and a half lecture from an expert in Hebrew concerning Genesis and the Nephilim. At around the 37 min. mark he gives a fascinating perspective on the phrase Jesus used in Mat. 24, "marrying and giving in marriage". It is his opinion that it specifically referred to women voluntarily and willingly marrying "the watchers", the non-human beings mentioned in Gen. 6 as having interbred with human women and producing hybrid offspring. Well worth the time to listen.

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MHz

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11/11/2013 09:23 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
1. Pre-trib reconciles two sets of scriptures which otherwise would be in conflict.

2. Pre-trib matches God's habit in the OT of taking out the righteous before raining down judgment on the wicked.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Noah spent 100 years building an Ark that would be used for 1 year. What part of that is the 'escaped it entirely'?

Lot's daughters would have remained virgins and his wife would not have been turned to salt if they 'had escaped the wrath'.

This is an hour and a half lecture from an expert in Hebrew concerning Genesis and the Nephilim. At around the 37 min. mark he gives a fascinating perspective on the phrase Jesus used in Mat. 24, "marrying and giving in marriage". It is his opinion that it specifically referred to women voluntarily and willingly marrying "the watchers", the non-human beings mentioned in Gen. 6 as having interbred with human women and producing hybrid offspring. Well worth the time to listen.

 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Let's say that Adam and Eve and all the other ones mentioned in Ge:5 were having 5 fingered babies and all the girls were taken by fallen angels for wives. That could mean that the children that were born to the 'daughters of Eve' would have been boys and girls but also 5 fingered and 6 fingered. For the sake of argument lets sat all the 6 fingered boys took the 5 fingered 'sisters' as wives and that would leave the 5 fingered men to have children with only the 6 fingered women. In time that would lead to the extinction of 5 fingered people and that would mean no seed of Eve could ever come along.

After the flood Noah and his wife and their 3 sons were all the 5 fingered people there were and the son's wives were 6 fingered females and it is through that same patter that 5 fingered people came to rule the planet except for a remnant of the 6 fingered people as the law that was in effect before the flood did not get changed until the 10 Commandments came along and then the 6 fingered people were exterminated so the change in law could take place, law in which Christ could enter Adams death and that could be used to define what the bruise in Ge:3:15 meant, it means for Satan it is a trip to the fiery lake, death for an angelic being.

Last Edited by MHz on 11/11/2013 10:36 PM

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