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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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Anonymous Coward
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Anonymous Coward
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Thanks for the bump s.

Have you had a chance to watch that video I mentioned?
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Anonymous Coward
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Yes I watched the first one once and i am now watching the second one
My comments on the first one
1. Kind. Of hard to follow because video and audio are of such poor quality
2. Having said that it sure explains a lot of the old testament
3. The guy has a brilliant comprehension of the old language
4. I'm not dogmatic on this but the phrases " seed of the woman" and
Mother of all living". Missler points out that the woman does not
Perduce a seed she perduces an egg. That should draw us to further
Study of that phrase. Mother of all living could this point to Jesus
In that there is only life in and through Him and ultimately the line to
Jesus must flow through her on his human side

As to the second video I'm only about half way through it and it is very interesting . Those skulls are something aren't they

Good thread keep

Keep looking up. goodnews
Ed
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Yes I watched the first one once and i am now watching the second one
My comments on the first one
1. Kind. Of hard to follow because video and audio are of such poor quality
2. Having said that it sure explains a lot of the old testament
3. The guy has a brilliant comprehension of the old language
4. I'm not dogmatic on this but the phrases " seed of the woman" and
Mother of all living". Missler points out that the woman does not
Perduce a seed she perduces an egg. That should draw us to further
Study of that phrase. Mother of all living could this point to Jesus
In that there is only life in and through Him and ultimately the line to
Jesus must flow through her on his human side

As to the second video I'm only about half way through it and it is very interesting . Those skulls are something aren't they

Good thread keep

Keep looking up. goodnews
Ed
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314

Thanks, Ed. hf

Yeah, it's a pity the first video quality is so poor. As for "seed", I haven't found any medical definition that says a woman's egg cannot be considered "seed". The Bible says she has it, that it is hers. So I would have to disagree with Missler on this. He's a smart guy, but even smart people make mistakes.

Yeah, freaky skulls... if there were only a few, one might suspect fakery. But there are hundreds.
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Anonymous Coward
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Maybe I'd didn't state it correctly, missler didn't disagree with the bible
He wanted to make a point that we consider the man to produce the seed and the woman to produce the egg, at that's what I was tought in school. But in context seed of the serpent and seed of the woman there is more going on here then meets eye. what that mite be I haven't a clue. It seems like the more you dig in to scripture the more complex it becomes
Thanks be to Jesus that salvation in so simple a child can understand and because of that I do understand and am saved

Keep looking up. goodnews
Ed
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Nephilim the true story by trey smith

This is truly mind blowing video

1 hr 30 min in. Behold the hand. Behold the nail

WOW!!!!!!!!!

Keep looking up
Ed. goodnews
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Nephilim the true story by trey smith

This is truly mind blowing video

1 hr 30 min in. Behold the hand. Behold the nail

WOW!!!!!!!!!

Keep looking up
Ed. goodnews
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314


As always!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Forgot about another good pre-trib source: Renald Showers. One link: [link to www.biblestudymanuals.net]

If 1 Thes 5:9 and Rev 3:10 both state that believers of the church age will not be subject to wrath. (And these passages do state that church age believers will not be subject to wrath)

And if Titus 2:13 says:

"While we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" signifying a hope of blessedness not of wrath (And it does)

Then

The doctrine that the church has to go through the tribulation and be decimated by the catastrophies and judgments that occur - including multiple thousands being martyred leaving only a fraction of the world's population surviving is false.

It is difficult to support the concept that the CHURCH AGE believer's "blessed hope" is that of being subject to God's wrath and multiple thousands being martyred while waiting for the Lord's return, thus having to go through the tribulation until He comes at the end. No, believers of the church age await the Lord's return for them when He will meet them in the air before the tribulation begins, (1 Thes 4:13-18). This is what Paul refers to as the "blessed hope" of the church age believer.
 Quoting: very short excerpt


If the church is to be purified by going through the tribulation wrath, (which Scripture does not support at all but many offer this as a reason for posttrib rapture), what about the 95% of the church age believers who are already in heaven and have avoided the purification. Were they that much better Christians than those poor believers who face catastrophes, disasters, deprivation, fugitive living and martyrdom such as the world has never seen?
 Quoting: another bit


Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/13/2013 09:06 PM
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
An interesting article about factors that may contribute to the fake story to cover the Rapture: [link to www.alienresistance.org]
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
goodnews
blues_man

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Nope.... GOD warned people in the the day of Moses about the great flood coming and appending doom.... he did not rapture the people then to save them... He wants us to go through trials to sharpen our love and understanding of him...He wants us to be ready for the kingdom of GOD. Pre Trib/Post Trib... never will happen... we need to go through the tribulation, I as a christian want to go through that, to prepare my heart and straighten my love for him...why would you want to puss out and not stay here and fight for Christ after all he has done for you! Man up and stand by Christ in the day of Day the Lord...
Nothing would give me greater pleasure to fight side by side with him against the devil of this world and come out the victor and await my reward in heaven!!
"life is just a fantasy, can you live this fantasy life"?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Nope.... GOD warned people in the the day of Moses about the great flood coming and appending doom.... he did not rapture the people then to save them... He wants us to go through trials to sharpen our love and understanding of him...He wants us to be ready for the kingdom of GOD. Pre Trib/Post Trib... never will happen... we need to go through the tribulation, I as a christian want to go through that, to prepare my heart and straighten my love for him...why would you want to puss out and not stay here and fight for Christ after all he has done for you! Man up and stand by Christ in the day of Day the Lord...
Nothing would give me greater pleasure to fight side by side with him against the devil of this world and come out the victor and await my reward in heaven!!
 Quoting: blues_man


So all the Christians who died before this point in history were not deemed worthy to be purified as YOU, the special and chosen? Wow, how egotistical.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Well, it seems the latest pre-trib hater has no answer.

But apparently a lot of people are reacting to pretty much anything and everything I say by hurling tomatoes (red karma), never saying who they are or even what thread they're referring to. This is what people do when there are no rational rebuttals; they lash out like toddlers who have just heard the word 'no' for the first time.

So, to those kind souls who have tried to keep me here: barring a miracle, this is my last few weeks at the cesspool that is GLP. It's been a wild ride, and I regret nothing. Some of you have my email, so feel free to keep in touch.

hf
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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PS: Complaining to the mods will only get you banned and get me banned, or at least more red karma.
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bump
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bump
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314


Hi there. hf

It's been war all day long in the other thread. But God has been good and will protect us. Jesus is very near; it's time to go!
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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goodnews
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2013 09:23 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
bump
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Just as on any topic with the Scriptures, until the (Biblical approach) is used, for reaching the correct conclusion, then all that we'll have, is either (an opinion, or a Scripture verse or perhaps several verses) - but never reach "the correct conclusion" with certainty. There's only one way to reach correct certainty, namely, use the methodology that (the Most High) gave us...to correctly reach a certain conclusion. (It takes a truly stunning level of work to do so, for this particular subject. For example, on the subject of "the coming of the Lord" AND a "verb" given for the church (what she's to be doing as the day approaches) - which is a closely related subject - there are 80 or 81 NT Scriptures or Scripture series. So again, it takes a stunning level of work - but for a subject such as this - it's the ONLY way.)

In keeping with the above, I thought I'd repost my comment (saying as much) from a thread made some weeks back, since I can't (Biblically state the "way to truth") any more clearly - than, God's way to truth.

Praise God

From the thread, "hey rapture folks":

It is a (truly major) biblical concept (and has nothing to do with whether the word "rapture", as translated in English) is in the text or not. The fact is, (its meaning...the event itself) is in the text; indeed many times. So it is real and it will happen.

The correct issue of (pre/post/mid/pre-wrath/etc.) - like most biblical concepts - is one of (what's known as "biblical hermeneutics").

Hermeneutics is simply a fancy word that means: HOW you interpret something (in this case the biblical text); or HOW you come to know something is true. IT'S NOTHING SHORT OF: THE METHODOLOGY that one uses to come to the correct conclusion on something...in this case, the timing of the catching away of the church - to meet the Lord (Jesus Christ) in the air. It's the time when believers are gathered together by His angels and when "we're changed" from mortal to immortal.

So correct hermeneutics will provide the correct biblical answer. Interestingly, the bible itself teaches us WHAT is the correct hermeneutic: It's in the Psalms, and it tells us that "Thy word (the sum of) is truth"...the sum of God's word brings us the answer to this - and all subjects.

Therefore, to find the answer, you have to take all pre- trib and all post-trib verses (if those are the two) and take/find the common denominator. This means, your conclusion must not conflict with any of the "opposing" verses, yet still make sense with the others. (There really is one...and there really is a correct answer.)

But why tell you what the answer is? It will hold less weight if I tell you. So do this yourself (It will take a lot of time and work - so only the real truth-seekers will know for sure; and that's how God wants it.). You'll then know 100%!

Clue: The resurrection and rapture are the same event.

Praise God
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Just as on any topic with the Scriptures, until the (Biblical approach) is used, for reaching the correct conclusion, then all that we'll have, is either (an opinion, or a Scripture verse or perhaps several verses) - but never reach "the correct conclusion" with certainty. There's only one way to reach correct certainty, namely, use the methodology that (the Most High) gave us...to correctly reach a certain conclusion. (It takes a truly stunning level of work to do so, for this particular subject. For example, on the subject of "the coming of the Lord" AND a "verb" given for the church (what she's to be doing as the day approaches) - which is a closely related subject - there are 80 or 81 NT Scriptures or Scripture series. So again, it takes a stunning level of work - but for a subject such as this - it's the ONLY way.)

In keeping with the above, I thought I'd repost my comment (saying as much) from a thread made some weeks back, since I can't (Biblically state the "way to truth") any more clearly - than, God's way to truth.

Praise God ...
Clue: The resurrection and rapture are the same event.

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


Yes, careful study is essential. And it's especially important not to oversimplify the complex, or over-complicate the simple.

Prophecy is notoriously complex. So we study and find that there is more than one resurrection, that there has been more than one "snatching up to heaven", and that there will be at least one more "coming of Christ" in spite of the fact that no one before his 1st coming ever dreamed of a second one. The only way they could have guessed it is by noting the fact that there are two sets of prophecies about the Messiah that cannot both be true at the same time. And the same holds true of the New Testament: there are two sets of prophecies about Jesus' return, that cannot both be true at the same time.

So look into all the conditions for every NT mention of the return of Christ, and you'll see that there must be two separate events.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
GODS HARDMAN
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I too am interested in fractals

Limitations also effect the computer generation of fractals. Even though the mathematical processes used as the basis of calculation are capable of being magnified forever without a loss of detail, a calculator, computer or (heaven forbid!) pencil and paper are not. When an image is calculated on screen it is limited to the resolution of the monitor therefore this process only provides a representation of the fractal. You could magnify and recalculate so that a small region of the previous image is now displayed on the monitor as the new image. At least this will show levels of detail which were not previously apparent but nevertheless any particular render will only be a representation of the fractal at a particular scale.


Another feature of fractals related to self-similarity is 'fractal dimension'. Going back to coastlines, how long is the coastline of say, Britain? Unfortunately, there is no straightforward answer as it depends on the size of the ruler used to measure it. The smaller the ruler the more details can be measured and the larger the answer will be. Measurements for different ruler sizes can be used to calculate the 'fractal dimension'. A coastline will have a fractal dimension between 1 and 2, compared to the topological dimension of 1 that lines have. All fractals will have a fractal dimension greater than the topological dimension.
[link to shoresofchaos.com]




So fractals prove there is no God? WOW!!!!!!
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 10:19 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Friends, please pray for safety during the intense storm forming over the midwest US. A wide area could experience strong, tornado-force winds all afternoon.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
fan of fractalman
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11/17/2013 10:27 AM
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LOL

Fractalman returns!

Fractalman,you have quite a following!!
Willyou be starting your own thread?
I AM interested in fractals and recursion systems.

LMFAO
FRACTALMAN
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11/17/2013 10:36 AM
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LOL

Fractalman returns!

Fractalman,you have quite a following!!
Willyou be starting your own thread?
I AM interested in fractals and recursion systems.

LMFAO
 Quoting: fan of fractalman 49060670


Thank you fractal fans!
I have changed my name to "FRACTALMAN", but I am mysterious.I will turn up on posts unannounced,just like Batman.
I will post interesting fractal facts,then disappear like a ninja,and people will say,"who was that man?"
IT WAS FRACTALMAN!!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Just as on any topic with the Scriptures, until the (Biblical approach) is used, for reaching the correct conclusion, then all that we'll have, is either (an opinion, or a Scripture verse or perhaps several verses) - but never reach "the correct conclusion" with certainty. There's only one way to reach correct certainty, namely, use the methodology that (the Most High) gave us...to correctly reach a certain conclusion. (It takes a truly stunning level of work to do so, for this particular subject. For example, on the subject of "the coming of the Lord" AND a "verb" given for the church (what she's to be doing as the day approaches) - which is a closely related subject - there are 80 or 81 NT Scriptures or Scripture series. So again, it takes a stunning level of work - but for a subject such as this - it's the ONLY way.)

In keeping with the above, I thought I'd repost my comment (saying as much) from a thread made some weeks back, since I can't (Biblically state the "way to truth") any more clearly - than, God's way to truth.

Praise God ...
Clue: The resurrection and rapture are the same event.

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


Yes, careful study is essential. And it's especially important not to oversimplify the complex, or over-complicate the simple.

Prophecy is notoriously complex. So we study and find that there is more than one resurrection, that there has been more than one "snatching up to heaven", and that there will be at least one more "coming of Christ" in spite of the fact that no one before his 1st coming ever dreamed of a second one. The only way they could have guessed it is by noting the fact that there are two sets of prophecies about the Messiah that cannot both be true at the same time. And the same holds true of the New Testament: there are two sets of prophecies about Jesus' return, that cannot both be true at the same time.

So look into all the conditions for every NT mention of the return of Christ, and you'll see that there must be two separate events.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


You've not completed (God's methodology).

Praise God
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 11:35 AM
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You've not completed (God's methodology).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


By what authority do you make this judgment?


Remember, disagreement is not indicative of incompletion, incompetence, or ignorance. It's just disagreement.
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Anonymous Coward
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You've not completed (God's methodology).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


By what authority do you make this judgment?


Remember, disagreement is not indicative of incompletion, incompetence, or ignorance. It's just disagreement.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



By the authority of (God's hermeneutic)...God's methodology (for reaching the correct, certain conclusion on a subject).

Per my first post, the part skipped, explained that: "the sum of God's word" is the only way to reach a correct conclusion. (Please see my original post).

Therefore, you have to take every verse (and series of verses) that are of the opposing view (as well as those with your view/conclusion), and reconcile them to the (correct conclusion).

By holding to what you said (saying the resurrection and rapture) are separate events...will not reconcile all (even most) Scriptures that show they're the same event. It's not enough to simply (attempt) to show a Scripture, or several Scriptures (that give evidence for them being different events), rather, you must do the latter, while first reconciling the former.

Praise God
Keep2theCode (OP)

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You've not completed (God's methodology).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


By what authority do you make this judgment?


Remember, disagreement is not indicative of incompletion, incompetence, or ignorance. It's just disagreement.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



By the authority of (God's hermeneutic)...God's methodology (for reaching the correct, certain conclusion on a subject).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151

Your opinion is not on the level of divine wisdom. Yes, it's your opinion. People of faith and training can disagree and neither be considered more advanced or closer to God than the other.

Which is to say, I do not recognize or acknowledge that you have any infallible edicts to pronounce, or any authority to judge me.

As for evidence and scriptural support, you can not have read the OP or Summary I've posted dozens of times. I'll post it again for you after this.

You're not the first to come in here on a high horse to play God, and you probably won't be the last.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


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I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)

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