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# For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

William
User ID: 47652865
11/17/2013 11:59 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
I too am interested in fractals

Limitations also effect the computer generation of fractals. Even though the mathematical processes used as the basis of calculation are capable of being magnified forever without a loss of detail, a calculator, computer or (heaven forbid!) pencil and paper are not. When an image is calculated on screen it is limited to the resolution of the monitor therefore this process only provides a representation of the fractal. You could magnify and recalculate so that a small region of the previous image is now displayed on the monitor as the new image. At least this will show levels of detail which were not previously apparent but nevertheless any particular render will only be a representation of the fractal at a particular scale.

Another feature of fractals related to self-similarity is 'fractal dimension'. Going back to coastlines, how long is the coastline of say, Britain? Unfortunately, there is no straightforward answer as it depends on the size of the ruler used to measure it. The smaller the ruler the more details can be measured and the larger the answer will be. Measurements for different ruler sizes can be used to calculate the 'fractal dimension'. A coastline will have a fractal dimension between 1 and 2, compared to the topological dimension of 1 that lines have. All fractals will have a fractal dimension greater than the topological dimension.

So fractals prove there is no God? WOW!!!!!!
Quoting: GODS HARDMAN 49285258

actually, quite the opposite; the study of fractals prove there are invisible forces maneuvering things at a very minute level...

but, it is not the work of the "one" god, religious adherents subscribe to...it is a combination of the universes energy, this galaxy game's creators, the energy being, engaged in experiential learning for this planet's nature realm, and in the case of a hu-man - the energy being(s), engaged in experiential learning for the hu-man path...

the one god, one son, prophets, chosen people, etc. is an imposed structure on this planet for control purposes... it is alien in origin, by those who claim this planet, and have altered the original inhabitants to suit their purposes...

the great confusion on this planet is because, there is not just one alien group, there are several... they are responsible for the different races, cultures, and religions.

some are aligned with their philosophies, and work together...some are completely opposed to each other, with resulting conflicts... it is quite a mess...
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 12:00 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.

Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8

This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.

New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")

=============================================================​=========

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
Quoting: Joel 2:31

So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18

Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Quoting: Daniel 9:27

We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8

So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25140151
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11/17/2013 12:01 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
You've not completed (God's methodology).

Praise God
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151

By what authority do you make this judgment?

Remember, disagreement is not indicative of incompletion, incompetence, or ignorance. It's just disagreement.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

By the authority of (God's hermeneutic)...God's methodology (for reaching the correct, certain conclusion on a subject).
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151

Your opinion is not on the level of divine wisdom. Yes, it's your opinion. People of faith and training can disagree and neither be considered more advanced or closer to God than the other.

Which is to say, I do not recognize or acknowledge that you have any infallible edicts to pronounce, or any authority to judge me.

As for evidence and scriptural support, you can not have read the OP or Summary I've posted dozens of times. I'll post it again for you after this.

You're not the first to come in here on a high horse to play God, and you probably won't be the last.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

Any truth-seeker can find out that I gave not "opinion" on how God wants His people to know truth. It's the only foolproof methodology, and given in His Word; (again, on this subject, it takes much work).

I let the Word judge you and your words.

The only "high horse" I use is God's Word...He tells the truth-seekers, (How) to know the truth.

Praise God
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 12:03 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Any truth-seeker can find out that I gave not "opinion" on how God wants His people to know truth. It's the only foolproof methodology, and given in His Word; (again, on this subject, it takes much work).

I let the Word judge you and your words.

The only "high horse" I use is God's Word...He tells the truth-seekers, (How) to know the truth.

Praise God
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151

You are human; you are fallible; you gave your personal opinion. I pray that you will learn humility.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
FRACTALMAN
User ID: 49285258
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11/17/2013 12:40 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
FRACTALMAN RETURNS!!!
THE NINJA OF THE INTERNET!!

OP ONLY GETS GREEN FOR REPORTING POSTS-HE'S A WHINY SNITCH WHO CRIES TO HIS MOMMY.
MOMMY! BAD PEOPLE ARE NOT AGREEING WITH ME! BWAAAAAAAA!!

FRACTAL FACTS
Limitations also effect the computer generation of fractals. Even though the mathematical processes used as the basis of calculation are capable of being magnified forever without a loss of detail, a calculator, computer or (heaven forbid!) pencil and paper are not. When an image is calculated on screen it is limited to the resolution of the monitor therefore this process only provides a representation of the fractal. You could magnify and recalculate so that a small region of the previous image is now displayed on the monitor as the new image. At least this will show levels of detail which were not previously apparent but nevertheless any particular render will only be a representation of the fractal at a particular scale.

Another feature of fractals related to self-similarity is 'fractal dimension'. Going back to coastlines, how long is the coastline of say, Britain? Unfortunately, there is no straightforward answer as it depends on the size of the ruler used to measure it. The smaller the ruler the more details can be measured and the larger the answer will be. Measurements for different ruler sizes can be used to calculate the 'fractal dimension'. A coastline will have a fractal dimension between 1 and 2, compared to the topological dimension of 1 that lines have. All fractals will have a fractal dimension greater than the topological dimension.

STAY TUNED FOR MORE FRACTAL FACTS!!!
MHz

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11/17/2013 12:59 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
You are human; you are fallible; you gave your personal opinion. I pray that you will learn humility.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

I'm in a different class, one that said I should give you a red because you complained about getting reds. I didn't realize I would have to wait a week before I could give you the green one that balances that out. That week delay results in you seeing me get humbled. Don't you love how God answers some prayers for you?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 01:09 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
You are human; you are fallible; you gave your personal opinion. I pray that you will learn humility.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

I'm in a different class, one that said I should give you a red because you complained about getting reds. I didn't realize I would have to wait a week before I could give you the green one that balances that out. That week delay results in you seeing me get humbled. Don't you love how God answers some prayers for you?
Quoting: MHz

I'm not sure what you mean by a "class" saying I should get more red karma. But yeah, we can only give karma to the same person once a week. Several months ago there was someone giving me red karma almost every hour, which can only happen if they're hacking the board or otherwise breaking rules. I complained about that, and a mod gave me red for it and threatened more, even though it was happening to several of us and was evidence of the board being hacked. That's how they roll here. (There are a few nice mods though.) I haven't complained to any mods about red karma since then.

Yes, God does answer prayer. Right now my main concern is the severe weather that will probably hit us around sunset.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2013 02:47 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
x number of days or weeks or years from now I am standing in front of the place I laid my wife to rest. I hear the sound of a trumpet, I see with my own eyes my darling wife raise from the ground (she has been resurrected)
In a moment, a twinkling of an eye, I am changed from corruptible to incorruptible (I have been raptured). We clasp hands and join The Lord in the air and so shall we be with The Lord evermore .
The resurrection and the rapture 2 parts to the same event.

Keep looking up
As always
Ed
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 02:49 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
x number of days or weeks or years from now I am standing in front of the place I laid my wife to rest. I hear the sound of a trumpet, I see with my own eyes my darling wife raise from the ground (she has been resurrected)
In a moment, a twinkling of an eye, I am changed from corruptible to incorruptible (I have been raptured). We clasp hands and join The Lord in the air and so shall we be with The Lord evermore .
The resurrection and the rapture 2 parts to the same event.

Keep looking up
As always
Ed
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314

God's blessings on you, Ed. May it be today.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2013 03:07 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Keep safe with that weather. Are you in harms way?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 03:21 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Keep safe with that weather. Are you in harms way?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314

Yes, it's heading toward us. The first line should reach here within 15 or 20 min. We're under a tornado watch till 8pm EST. We have no basement and nobody around here does either.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
FRACTALMAN
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11/17/2013 03:40 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
FRACTALMAN RETURNS!!!
THE NINJA OF THE INTERNET!!

OP ONLY GETS GREEN FOR REPORTING POSTS-HE'S A WHINY SNITCH WHO CRIES TO HIS MOMMY.
MOMMY! BAD PEOPLE ARE NOT AGREEING WITH ME! BWAAAAAAAA!!
HES BEEN BANNED TWICE
TALKS TO HIMSELF (You know what I mean,dont you Keep2thecode-Wink wink, nudge nudge)

Here are some fractal facts

A fractal is a mathematical set that has a fractal dimension that usually exceeds its topological dimension[1] and may fall between the integers.[2] Fractals are typically self-similar patterns, where self-similar means they are "the same from near as from far".[3] Fractals may be exactly the same at every scale, or, as illustrated in Figure 1, they may be nearly the same at different scales.[2][4][5][6] The definition of fractal goes beyond self-similarity per se to exclude trivial self-similarity and include the idea of a detailed pattern repeating itself.[2]:166; 18[4][7]

Although mathematical fractals contain an infinite level of detail with 'real world' fractals this is not the case, for example you can magnify the view of a coastline and at first there will be major estuaries and larger bays. Further magnification will reveal smaller estuaries and bays then down to coves and inlets and finanlly individual rocks and pebbles. At some point further magnification causes the previously observed fractal structure to breakdown. Fractals in the natural world are subject to this sort of limit. However because they have fractal structure over a range of scales fractal techniques can be used to successfully model them.

Told you we would be back.

Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 03:42 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Here comes the rain...
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2013 08:50 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
K2 are you ok?
Ed
Keep2theCode (OP)

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K2 are you ok?
Ed
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35143314

As I mentioned elsewhere, it's not the first time I've checked the weather maps and watched a line of storms split in two and go around us. God has spared and blessed us once again. I pray that my relatives east of here will also be spared as we were. Many around us have lost power.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2013 09:10 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything.

I point this out for two reasons: one, that I don't jump on any end times passage and scream "Rapture!", and two, that there is precedent for God protecting people during a time of his wrath. I could also cite Noah and Lot as examples of protection during judgment, but Enoch and Elijah are truly indisputable examples of a "rapture", a snatching away to heaven of people who never experienced physical death.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 09:25 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Why weren't those Christian families that had their throats slit by Obama's backed Takfiri militants in Syria raptured?

This whole pre tribulation rapture doctrine makes absolutely no sense what soever.
Quoting: Abbs Dublin

Because the Rapture hasn't happened yet.

Christians have been martyred as long as there have been Christians. It goes with the territory. But to say that Christians today have to be purified in a special way as no other Christians, including the apostles, is extremely arrogant.

Did you read the OP? The Summary? There's a LOT of scripture in them, and a lot of discussion has taken place. Your point here is not new and has been addressed more than once.

Whether it makes sense to you or not, the stated purpose of this thread is to explain the pre-trib Rapture in order to refute lies being spread about it.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/17/2013 10:20 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

Untold thousands believe in the "rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because people don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame.

The late Corrie ten Boom called the pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine."

The belief in a rapture of believers before the tribulation is also attributed to the best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," (by Hal Lindsey), which became popular in the l960s. It has been aggressively pushed by most evangelicals and fundamentalists in America.

Videos, Theologians, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.

The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream. She told her Pastor, John Darby, about the dream. He then relayed the dream to C. I. Scofield - who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture myth as a footnote in his popular Bible, which began the spread of the myth.

The monstrous heresies were first brought into the Church by Cyrus Scofield, a corrupt, crooked lawyer funded by Zionist Jews from New York City in the late 19th century. Scofield's heresies promoting a Jewish kingdom and an earthly Zionist New World Order to be ruled over by a god-like Jewish race, without any Christian gentiles around to mess things up, soon became fashionable among some apostate denominations, especially among the Southern Baptists and their heavily Masonic Lodge membership.

Sadly, millions of "evangelical" and "fundamentalist" Christians actually believe that in helping Satan and the Beast set up their bloody kingdom on earth, they are, in reality, serving God.

Their disregard for scriptural integrity brings graphically to mind our Lord's dire warning that as the end of time draws near, the religious of this world will kill true Christians and think they do God service (John 16:2).

In Matthew 24:29-3l, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it!

Pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for the biblically - riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.

All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.

We cannot use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul and insert them into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references.

Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.

Holding to a pre-tribulation rapture is more than academic squabbling. It drastically weakens believers world wide.

Believers should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

Instead, Believers are living with false hope that they will be raptured before the tribulation.

This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see to it that through in this age of laxity there is minimal resistance to the dark powers. The apostate segment is doing its fair share of blackening truth.

It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that there are wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant.

Those who are not strong will drop — fall away, as predicted in the Bible. They will be too numerous. For those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.

The remnant is already being strengthened by the Holy Spirit. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.

Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
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Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 10:24 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50155138

Thanks for sharing your opinion. No need to mark it down; everybody has an opinion.

BTW, all of your alleged charges against the pre-trib Rapture have been addressed multiple times.

Curious... your comment ended with an extra, solitary . just like someone who has been trolling here. Curious.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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11/17/2013 10:26 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Once again, since it seems to be so hard for people to find and read:

Summary

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.

Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8

This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.

New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")

=============================================================​=========

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
Quoting: Joel 2:31

So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18

Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Quoting: Daniel 9:27

We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8

So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
FRACTALMAN
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11/18/2013 06:38 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
FRACTALMAN RETURNS!!!

THE NINJA OF THE INTERNET!!

OP ONLY GETS GREEN FOR REPORTING POSTS-HE'S A WHINY SNITCH WHO CRIES TO HIS MOMMY.

MOMMY! BAD PEOPLE ARE NOT AGREEING WITH ME! BWAAAAAAAA!!

Here are some very interesting fractal facts

A fractal is a mathematical set that has a fractal dimension that usually exceeds its topological dimension[1] and may fall between the integers.[2] Fractals are typically self-similar patterns, where self-similar means they are "the same from near as from far".[3] Fractals may be exactly the same at every scale, or, as illustrated in Figure 1, they may be nearly the same at different scales.[2][4][5][6] The definition of fractal goes beyond self-similarity per se to exclude trivial self-similarity and include the idea of a detailed pattern repeating itself.[2]:166; 18[4][7]

THATS FASCINATING FRACTALMAN!!

Although mathematical fractals contain an infinite level of detail with 'real world' fractals this is not the case, for example you can magnify the view of a coastline and at first there will be major estuaries and larger bays. Further magnification will reveal smaller estuaries and bays then down to coves and inlets and finanlly individual rocks and pebbles. At some point further magnification causes the previously observed fractal structure to breakdown. Fractals in the natural world are subject to this sort of limit. However because they have fractal structure over a range of scales fractal techniques can be used to successfully model them.

THAT HAS BLOWN MY MIND FRACTALMAN!!

So fractals prove there is no God? WOW!!!!!!
FEAR NOT FRACTAL FANS I WILL RETURN
STAY TUNED FOR MORE FRACTAL FACTS!!!
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/18/2013 06:41 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
There is a lot of misinterpreted twisted scripture concerning the "rapture" of which I believe was invented by an Irish man mid 18th century. You will find plenty of chat about the rapture on the God channels and many of the same evangelical churches that also preach OSAS which is another filthy lie of the Devil.

The Rapture has become a laughing stock and embarrassment among the Christian community and I certainly distance myself from the subject should anyone bring it up.

I believe Christ returns once again not twice and that is at the end of age when the wheat is separated from the tares after they have grown up together.

Quoting: Abbs Dublin

You haven't yet read the OP or summary. I even went over that ridiculous story about the Irish maid (I know her name, do you? And did you know she didn't even talk about a pre-trib Rapture?)

People always laugh at truth, and God, and Christians, and the Bible.

Show me in the OT where it says the Messiah would come twice, and you'll start to see the error in your premise.

Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50170155
United States
11/18/2013 07:33 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

It sounds like you don't want to know the truth.
This preacher knows that you are wrong, even if you don't.

Pastor John Weaver - The Rapture of the Wicked
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/18/2013 07:35 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

It sounds like you don't want to know the truth.
This preacher knows that you are wrong, even if you don't.

Pastor John Weaver - The Rapture of the Wicked
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155

It sounds like you don't want the truth either, or tolerate anyone holding an opinion that differs from your own, or bother to read the OP or Summary before commenting. You have your opinions and I have mine. There are other threads flaming the pre-trib view; why not post there, where you'll not be confronted with disturbing facts?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
User ID: 50173074
United States
11/18/2013 07:45 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
You should be banned from doing this OP.
LOL
Ban????
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50170155
United States
11/18/2013 07:48 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Below are my scriptural reasons for believing there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already, so saying it again wouldn't change anything.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

It sounds like you don't want to know the truth.
This preacher knows that you are wrong, even if you don't.

Pastor John Weaver - The Rapture of the Wicked
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155

It sounds like you don't want the truth either, or tolerate anyone holding an opinion that differs from your own, or bother to read the OP or Summary before commenting. You have your opinions and I have mine. There are other threads flaming the pre-trib view; why not post there, where you'll not be confronted with disturbing facts?
Quoting: Keep2theCode

Pastor John Weaver proves that it will be the wicked who will be raptured. Are you going to be raptured? If so, you are wicked.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
11/18/2013 07:53 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

Pastor John Weaver proves that it will be the wicked who will be raptured. Are you going to be raptured? If so, you are wicked.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155

No, YOUR opinions are wrong. Your 'pastor' proves nothing. Call me whatever you like; take a number and get in line.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
User ID: 50172981
United States
11/18/2013 07:56 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
OP.
Why are you responding to yourself?
Your IP source is the same.
Ban OP ?

Go Fractalman!!!
User ID: 50172980
United States
11/18/2013 07:57 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
OP.
Why are you responding to yourself?
Your IP source is the same.
Ban OP ?

Go Fractalman!!!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50170155
United States
11/18/2013 07:57 AM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

Pastor John Weaver proves that it will be the wicked who will be raptured. Are you going to be raptured? If so, you are wicked.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155

No, YOUR opinions are wrong. Your 'pastor' proves nothing. Call me whatever you like; take a number and get in line.
Quoting: Keep2theCode

Why do your opinions matter to you more than God's Word?

Pastor Weaver proves that the wicked will be raptured.

If you want to raptured, I'm OK with that.