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For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

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Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
This ("rapture") subject more than any other (for Christians), grieves my heart, deeply; very deeply.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


But the vicious evil being thrown at me or anyone who sides with me doesn't grieve your heart at all.

You're just begging me to post that Summary again.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Listen, all "trash" talking - whether aimed at you or others, is not of God.

Yes, I hate reading that; it seems like it's par for the times.

May people see that time is short.

Bless you.

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


Fair enough, but when you say the pre-trib view grieves your heart, you're saying that everyone who believes it is deficient or deluded.

I have bent over backwards to explain the pre-trib view and keep the thread on the topic of refuting lies being spread about it. I've given many scripture references, many links for further reading, and posted an in-depth summary for those who won't read the OP or all these pages of comments.

So if I see something in scripture you disagree with, it grieves your heart. This in itself grieves mine, because it casts aspersions on thousands or millions of people who diligently study scripture and just reach a different conclusion. If anyone would actually read what I and others have posted, they would see that it is NOT dangerous or heretical or stupid.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Because I am one that has studied all known scriptures (per that topic, over decades - at least that I know of - perhaps I've missed one here or there) and there are scores of scriptures that are not reconciled with that teaching: and the stakes are so high for being wrong!) God even tells us (through Paul), that being deceived on this subject (is equated with unrighteousness).

(Even when I read Dr. Thomas' article...I only brought up one point in my post, but there were three points that he'd made (and only reading part of the article) that were incorrect or incomplete (that led to a false conclusion).

Praise God
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:10 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Because I am one that has studied all known scriptures (per that topic, over decades - at least that I know of - perhaps I've missed one here or there) and there are scores of scriptures that are not reconciled with that teaching: and the stakes are so high for being wrong!) God even tells us (through Paul), that being deceived on this subject (is equated with unrighteousness).

(Even when I read Dr. Thomas' article...I only brought up one point in my post, but there were three points that he'd made (and only reading part of the article) that were incorrect or incomplete (that led to a false conclusion).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


So have I. So has Dr. Ice. So have a gazillion other people, and we disagree with you. That's all. It isn't dangerous. It isn't frightening. It isn't against the Gospel. You say Ice is incorrect, but it could as easily be you.

We just disagree.

I made this thread to refute lies being spread about pre-trib. That's all.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:16 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Because I am one that has studied all known scriptures (per that topic, over decades - at least that I know of - perhaps I've missed one here or there) and there are scores of scriptures that are not reconciled with that teaching: and the stakes are so high for being wrong!) God even tells us (through Paul), that being deceived on this subject (is equated with unrighteousness).

(Even when I read Dr. Thomas' article...I only brought up one point in my post, but there were three points that he'd made (and only reading part of the article) that were incorrect or incomplete (that led to a false conclusion).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


So have I. So has Dr. Ice. So have a gazillion other people, and we disagree with you. That's all. It isn't dangerous. It isn't frightening. It isn't against the Gospel. You say Ice is incorrect, but it could as easily be you.

We just disagree.

I made this thread to refute lies being spread about pre-trib. That's all.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Anyone who disagrees with you, is likely correct.

You are preaching a FALSE pre-trib rapture, but you won't ask us to pray that you get raptured. Why? If you are telling us the truth, why don't you want us to pray that you get raptured?

Can you explain that?
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:17 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Anyone who disagrees with you, is likely correct.

You are preaching a FALSE pre-trib rapture, but you won't ask us to pray that you get raptured. Why? If you are telling us the truth, why don't you want us to pray that you get raptured?

Can you explain that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Can you give up demanding that I answer your ridiculous and fallacious 'questions'? Didn't think so.

You need help.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:19 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Because I am one that has studied all known scriptures (per that topic, over decades - at least that I know of - perhaps I've missed one here or there) and there are scores of scriptures that are not reconciled with that teaching: and the stakes are so high for being wrong!) God even tells us (through Paul), that being deceived on this subject (is equated with unrighteousness).

(Even when I read Dr. Thomas' article...I only brought up one point in my post, but there were three points that he'd made (and only reading part of the article) that were incorrect or incomplete (that led to a false conclusion).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


So have I. So has Dr. Ice. So have a gazillion other people, and we disagree with you. That's all. It isn't dangerous. It isn't frightening. It isn't against the Gospel. You say Ice is incorrect, but it could as easily be you.

We just disagree.

I made this thread to refute lies being spread about pre-trib. That's all.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Friend,

From the perspective of eternity (and one's soul), it is dangerous; it is frightening, and being wrong on this...is putting (those of weaker faith) in potential peril.

The stakes are limited (if I'm wrong: that the catching away occurs at the coming of the Lord). The stakes are unlimited (if pre-trib teaching is wrong, and people believe (act) on it).

Praise God
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:22 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Friend,

From the perspective of eternity (and one's soul), it is dangerous; it is frightening, and being wrong on this...is putting (those of weaker faith) in potential peril.

The stakes are limited (if I'm wrong: that the catching away occurs at the coming of the Lord). The stakes are unlimited (if pre-trib teaching is wrong, and people believe (act) on it).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


If you had read the Summary, you would know that it is NOT anything close to dangerous. What you believe about it is a straw man, and the very reason I made this thread is to prove it. But nobody reads it.

You are afraid of something we never said.

What should bother you much more is how people treat us. There are MUCH more serious consequences for that, guaranteed.

The best way to "praise God" is to stop believing and spreading lies.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:23 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Anyone who disagrees with you, is likely correct.

You are preaching a FALSE pre-trib rapture, but you won't ask us to pray that you get raptured. Why? If you are telling us the truth, why don't you want us to pray that you get raptured?

Can you explain that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Can you give up demanding that I answer your ridiculous and fallacious 'questions'? Didn't think so.

You need help.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


It's very simple, isn't it?

If you are preaching a pre-trib rapture, why don't you BELIEVE it?

We will all pray that you get raptured, just like you have been preaching. You will go to exactly the place that the Bible tells us that rapyured people go.

Here is why he does not want us to pray for his rapture.

Pastor John Weaver - The Rapture of the Wicked [link to www.sermonaudio.com]


There is a rapture, and NOBODY wants to be a part of it.

Keep2theCode knows that he has been deceiving people and he knows that if he asks us to pray for his rapture, he will be sealing his fate.
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:25 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
We will all pray that you get raptured, just like you have been preaching. You will go to exactly the place that the Bible tells us that rapyured people go.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Thanks for stating it so clearly:

You wish for my demise.

Christians don't do that.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:28 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
We will all pray that you get raptured, just like you have been preaching. You will go to exactly the place that the Bible tells us that rapyured people go.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Thanks for stating it so clearly:

You wish for my demise.

Christians don't do that.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Since you are leading people to hell, you deserve hell.

Repent and tell people the truth while you still can.

Nobody knows when they will die.

Repent and tell people the truth.
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:29 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Anyone who disagrees with you, is likely correct.

You are preaching a FALSE pre-trib rapture, but you won't ask us to pray that you get raptured. Why? If you are telling us the truth, why don't you want us to pray that you get raptured?

Can you explain that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Can you give up demanding that I answer your ridiculous and fallacious 'questions'? Didn't think so.

You need help.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


It's very simple, isn't it?

If you are preaching a pre-trib rapture, why don't you BELIEVE it?

We will all pray that you get raptured, just like you have been preaching. You will go to exactly the place that the Bible tells us that rapyured people go.

Here is why he does not want us to pray for his rapture.

Pastor John Weaver - The Rapture of the Wicked [link to www.sermonaudio.com]


There is a rapture, and NOBODY wants to be a part of it.

Keep2theCode knows that he has been deceiving people and he knows that if he asks us to pray for his rapture, he will be sealing his fate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


There is a rapture, and NOBODY wants to be a part of it.

Yes and AMEN!

The pre-trib rapture of believers belief is DANGEROUS.
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:30 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
We will all pray that you get raptured, just like you have been preaching. You will go to exactly the place that the Bible tells us that rapyured people go.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Thanks for stating it so clearly:

You wish for my demise.

Christians don't do that.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Since you are leading people to hell, you deserve hell.

Repent and tell people the truth while you still can.

Nobody knows when they will die.

Repent and tell people the truth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Repent of your hatred and slander while there is still time. Nobody knows when the Master will return and find you abusing people.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:31 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


=============================================================​=========

[link to www.fether.net]

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:31 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Friend,

From the perspective of eternity (and one's soul), it is dangerous; it is frightening, and being wrong on this...is putting (those of weaker faith) in potential peril.

The stakes are limited (if I'm wrong: that the catching away occurs at the coming of the Lord). The stakes are unlimited (if pre-trib teaching is wrong, and people believe (act) on it).

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


If you had read the Summary, you would know that it is NOT anything close to dangerous. What you believe about it is a straw man, and the very reason I made this thread is to prove it. But nobody reads it.

You are afraid of something we never said.

What should bother you much more is how people treat us. There are MUCH more serious consequences for that, guaranteed.

The best way to "praise God" is to stop believing and spreading lies.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


If people believe a lie (which means they're ready to act on it - otherwise they don't really believe it), and the lie is that you believe (and again ready to act commensurate with that belief) that YOU WON'T BE HERE DURING THE REIGN OF AC, BECAUSE YOU'RE "REMOVED" BEFORE HE COMES, AND THEREFORE NEITHER WILL BE EXPOSED TO THE MARK...THEREFORE, IF THIS BELIEF IS FALSE, AND THE AC ARRIVES AND MARK COMES...YOU'LL ACT ACCORDINGLY: MEANING YOU'LL TAKE THE MARK, (BECAUSE YOU'RE 'NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE").

And remember, concerning the mark, ("wisdom" and "understanding" are needed), therefore, this won't be something necessarily easily discerned. short of spiritual understanding.

Praise God
Anonymous Coward
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11/18/2013 08:33 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
We will all pray that you get raptured, just like you have been preaching. You will go to exactly the place that the Bible tells us that rapyured people go.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Thanks for stating it so clearly:

You wish for my demise.

Christians don't do that.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Since you are leading people to hell, you deserve hell.

Repent and tell people the truth while you still can.

Nobody knows when they will die.

Repent and tell people the truth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Repent of your hatred and slander while there is still time. Nobody knows when the Master will return and find you abusing people.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Projection on to others by Keep2theCode. Denial and projection on to others - what we ourselves are obviously doing is another strategy of the enemy.
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:34 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
If people believe a lie (which means they're ready to act on it - otherwise they don't really believe it), and the lie is that you believe (and again ready to act commensurate with that belief) that YOU WON'T BE HERE DURING THE REIGN OF AC, BECAUSE YOU'RE "REMOVED" BEFORE HE COMES, AND THEREFORE NEITHER WILL BE EXPOSED TO THE MARK...THEREFORE, IF THIS BELIEF IS FALSE, AND THE AC ARRIVES AND MARK COMES...YOU'LL ACT ACCORDINGLY: MEANING YOU'LL TAKE THE MARK, (BECAUSE YOU'RE 'NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE").

And remember, concerning the mark, ("wisdom" and "understanding" are needed), therefore, this won't be something necessarily easily discerned. short of spiritual understanding.

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


You don't even read what I say in these short comments, let alone the Summary. You are slandering what you don't understand and refuse to understand.

And I'm done trying to reason with you or anyone else who has an ax to grind and a lie to tell.

My thread would have drifted into obscurity without all you haters bumping it. You all have done more to spread what you call my lies than I could ever have done myself. Congrats.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode  (OP)

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11/18/2013 08:36 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]

Now brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who have died, so that you do not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and then rose, so also will God raise the dead through Jesus. We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13–18

1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Dan. 9:24-27

First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads... The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, "Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?"

The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1–8


This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 Quoting: 2 Thes. 2:1-12

Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


=============================================================​=========

[link to www.fether.net]

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal:
Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Master.
 Quoting: Joel 2:31


So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal:
The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?

We tell you this in the Word of the Master, that we who are alive when the Master appears will not be in line in front of those who have died. For the Master himself will descend from heaven with the loud command of the Ruling Messenger and the trumpet of God; the dead in the Anointed will rise first, and then we who are alive will be snatched away at the same time with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air. Then we will always be together with the Master. So comfort each other with these words.
 Quoting: 1 Thes. 4:13-18


Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
 Quoting: Daniel 9:27


We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:

Then I saw a wild animal rise out of the sea, and it had ten horns and seven heads… The whole earth was astounded at the wild animal, and they worshiped the dragon for giving jurisdiction to it. They said, “Who is like the wild animal, and who can fight it?” The wild animal was given a mouth with which to speak great and slanderous things, and its jurisdiction would be for forty-two months. It opened up its mouth to slander God and his name, and his sanctuary and all who live in heaven. And it was allowed to do battle with the holy people and conquer them, as well as to have jurisdiction over all tribes, people groups, languages, and non-Judeans. All the earth-dwellers will worship it, whose names have not been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who had been slaughtered from the establishment of the world.
 Quoting: Rev. 13:1-8


So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
So much for repentance.

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Run all you want Keep2theCode.

Your days are numbered.
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


AMEN
Anonymous Coward
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
If people believe a lie (which means they're ready to act on it - otherwise they don't really believe it), and the lie is that you believe (and again ready to act commensurate with that belief) that YOU WON'T BE HERE DURING THE REIGN OF AC, BECAUSE YOU'RE "REMOVED" BEFORE HE COMES, AND THEREFORE NEITHER WILL BE EXPOSED TO THE MARK...THEREFORE, IF THIS BELIEF IS FALSE, AND THE AC ARRIVES AND MARK COMES...YOU'LL ACT ACCORDINGLY: MEANING YOU'LL TAKE THE MARK, (BECAUSE YOU'RE 'NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE").

And remember, concerning the mark, ("wisdom" and "understanding" are needed), therefore, this won't be something necessarily easily discerned. short of spiritual understanding.

Praise God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25140151


You don't even read what I say in these short comments, let alone the Summary. You are slandering what you don't understand and refuse to understand.

And I'm done trying to reason with you or anyone else who has an ax to grind and a lie to tell.

My thread would have drifted into obscurity without all you haters bumping it. You all have done more to spread what you call my lies than I could ever have done myself. Congrats.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


"Truth is like a lion. It needs not defending."

(Hence: there never will be "60 PhD's" defending that the timing of the catching away of the church... occurs at the coming of the Lord, when the dead in Christ are raised first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...)

Praise God
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User ID: 49472418
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11/18/2013 08:45 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Pre-Trib Doctrine: Believers vanish prior to the 1st Seal of Revelation.


Their explanation:


"It is only logical that since Christ opens all 7 Seals......that ALL THE SEALS must be God's wrath."


Human logic at it's finest.


It is therefore not permitted God to display His wrath in only One of the Seals.......with the others being just future events that will take place.....as permitted by Him.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 46000141
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11/18/2013 09:03 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
So much for repentance.

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Run all you want Keep2theCode.

Your days are numbered.
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Wow. You are wishing for the immediate death of someone over their belief of the Rapture timing?????

That is seriously EVIL..........

Are you not aware that you will reap what you have sown?
May God forgive you and have mercy on you for the foolishness of your words.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50155138
United States
11/18/2013 09:10 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
So much for repentance.

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Run all you want Keep2theCode.

Your days are numbered.
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Wow. You are wishing for the immediate death of someone over their belief of the Rapture timing?????

That is seriously EVIL..........

Are you not aware that you will reap what you have sown?
May God forgive you and have mercy on you for the foolishness of your words.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46000141


What about all the people Keep2theCode is trying to deceive?

People who will not be prepared. People who will willingly take the mark of the beast because they are convinced - that it is not the mark - as they have been lead by Satan to believe they will be raptured before the tribulation?

That is seriously EVIL ................
.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49472418
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11/18/2013 09:17 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Pre-Trib Human logic: All 7 Seals are God's wrath.

vs.

Scripture Only:


1. Elites hide in fear and declare God's wrath is about to begin.......just prior to the 7th Seal.


2. The 144,000 are sealed from harm......just prior to the 7th Seal.


Rev. 6: 12------Rev. 7: 8
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49472418
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11/18/2013 09:38 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
As I have mentioned on previous occasions and various threads......Satan is the master of half-truths.

His trick on this particular doctrine was to re-name Daniel's 70th week as "The Tribulation Period."

By doing so......"Tribulation" is placed or imposed upon the full 7 years of Daniel's 70th week.

From this, believers will then believe that this final 7 years is all God's wrath......and that they will be removed.


The truth however is that there is no Scriptural support for God's wrath encompassing all of Daniel's 70th week.


All that you have that begins the 70th week is a possible peace covenant between Israel and the man of evil......and even that might not be too well publicized.
RAG
User ID: 49148771
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11/18/2013 09:56 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Pre-Tribulation-----Mid-Tribulation------Post-Tribulation

A House Divided

Brothers, Sisters

Please hear my heart

I have been reading here and my heart aches to see such division amongst the body. Was it not our Saviour who beseeched us to Love one another as He Loved us all?

I understand the concerns of my Brothers and Sisters that do not hold to the pre-tribulation understandings of scripture. This concern is of others being deceived and then discouraged to the point of loosing faith if they find themselves living through what they thought they would be spared. I honestly don't see malice in these concerns but an honest desire for others to remain strong in their faith as this world descends into a level of evil that few, if any, have ever experienced.

I also understand those who do see the pre-tribulation view as scriptural. It provides hope that we may be excluded from a very great evil that we all agree is to come. Again, I see no malice on the part of those that find evidences for this in scripture.

I do Pray for a pre-tribulation rapture. Not for myself as I truly do not see myself as worthy but for the Grace of Salvation. I'm a husband and a dad. My heart grows weak at the thought of my wife and children going through what is to come.

That being said I Pray for Faith and strength to deal with what ever may come. I know the Lord IS coming. I also know that in Him alone I will seek shelter from all that may come. Jesus is my protector as well as my Saviour.

I post this not to ad to the debate or to choose one side or the other. I have no new evidence to support or dissuade from one point of view or the other. I post this to remind us ALL to love one another. I post this to point towards Jesus regardless of what may come. I post this to encourage ALL to remain strong and steadfast in Jesus Christ and be assured, He has risen and will surely return.

With much Love

God Bless us ALL
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50090280
Mongolia
11/18/2013 09:56 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
So much for repentance.

Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Run all you want Keep2theCode.

Your days are numbered.
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50170155


Wow. You are wishing for the immediate death of someone over their belief of the Rapture timing?????

That is seriously EVIL..........

Are you not aware that you will reap what you have sown?
May God forgive you and have mercy on you for the foolishness of your words.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46000141


What about all the people Keep2theCode is trying to deceive?

People who will not be prepared. People who will willingly take the mark of the beast because they are convinced - that it is not the mark - as they have been lead by Satan to believe they will be raptured before the tribulation?

That is seriously EVIL ................
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50155138

That's a false argument. Why assume some Christians will accept the Mark of the Beast if the rapture doesn't play out like they think it will? That position is a fallacy.

Even if there was no rapture at all in the bible, all Christians should beware of the Mark of the Beast. Taking it also involves bowing down to worship the Beast or an image of the Beast that will stand in the Holy of Holies in the 3rd Temple. And I believe he will deny Yeshua (Jesus). So I hope no Christian, regardless of rapture views, would ever do that.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49338715
Mongolia
11/18/2013 10:03 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
As I have mentioned on previous occasions and various threads......Satan is the master of half-truths.

His trick on this particular doctrine was to re-name Daniel's 70th week as "The Tribulation Period."

By doing so......"Tribulation" is placed or imposed upon the full 7 years of Daniel's 70th week.

From this, believers will then believe that this final 7 years is all God's wrath......and that they will be removed.


The truth however is that there is no Scriptural support for God's wrath encompassing all of Daniel's 70th week.


All that you have that begins the 70th week is a possible peace covenant between Israel and the man of evil......and even that might not be too well publicized.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418

There are many reasons Pre-Trib believers think the "catching up" will happen before the 1st Seal is broken, not just their understanding of the time of the wrath of God. It's a bigger picture than you are illustrating here.

Here are just couple of examples:

1. The Restrainer leaves before the Antichrist comes. Pre-Tribbers believe the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit dwelling in Christians. They believe they will leave when He does.

2. There is no mention of the Church or Bride of Christ after the 1st Seal is broken.

There are more reasons if you wish to research it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49756272
Mongolia
11/18/2013 10:10 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Pre-Tribulation-----Mid-Tribulation------Post-Tribulation

A House Divided

Brothers, Sisters

Please hear my heart

I have been reading here and my heart aches to see such division amongst the body. Was it not our Saviour who beseeched us to Love one another as He Loved us all?

I understand the concerns of my Brothers and Sisters that do not hold to the pre-tribulation understandings of scripture. This concern is of others being deceived and then discouraged to the point of loosing faith if they find themselves living through what they thought they would be spared. I honestly don't see malice in these concerns but an honest desire for others to remain strong in their faith as this world descends into a level of evil that few, if any, have ever experienced.

I also understand those who do see the pre-tribulation view as scriptural. It provides hope that we may be excluded from a very great evil that we all agree is to come. Again, I see no malice on the part of those that find evidences for this in scripture.

I do Pray for a pre-tribulation rapture. Not for myself as I truly do not see myself as worthy but for the Grace of Salvation. I'm a husband and a dad. My heart grows weak at the thought of my wife and children going through what is to come.

That being said I Pray for Faith and strength to deal with what ever may come. I know the Lord IS coming. I also know that in Him alone I will seek shelter from all that may come. Jesus is my protector as well as my Saviour.

I post this not to ad to the debate or to choose one side or the other. I have no new evidence to support or dissuade from one point of view or the other. I post this to remind us ALL to love one another. I post this to point towards Jesus regardless of what may come. I post this to encourage ALL to remain strong and steadfast in Jesus Christ and be assured, He has risen and will surely return.

With much Love

God Bless us ALL
 Quoting: RAG 49148771

Thank you for your words of love and wisdom.

Regardless of what Christians believe with respect to the timing of the rapture, we should all stay true to our faith in God, and His savior for mankind, Yeshua Ha'Machiach (Jesus the Messiah.) For if we abide in Him, He will take care of us no matter what will soon happen. Some of us will be wrong concerning the timing of the rapture, but that's ok as long as we keep our eyes focused on Yeshua. He will see us through the coming end times ahead, and His will will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. We will be exactly where He wants us to be. And that's ok with me, no matter what happens.

Amen.

Peace
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49472418
United States
11/18/2013 10:33 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Here are just couple of examples:

1. The Restrainer leaves before the Antichrist comes. Pre-Tribbers believe the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit dwelling in Christians. They believe they will leave when He does.

2. There is no mention of the Church or Bride of Christ after the 1st Seal is broken.


*********************************************

For #2.......are you saying those specific two things only??....Church.....Bride of Christ.


How about........"souls of those slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held."


or... "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


For #1......it is somewhat bizarre (no offense) to believe that the Holy Spirit is only inside of Christians. The Holy Spirit, being God, is virtually everywhere.....certainly anywhere that He wants to be......and nothing escapes His notice.


If you read the book of Daniel.......you will see that Daniel's prayer was held up 21 days because of the warfare that goes on between angels.

The Book of Daniel is addressed to Israel and the Daniel's prayers were for Israel. The 70 week prophecy involves the duration of Israel's punishment.....how long God will hide His face from Israel.

In the last Chapter of Daniel......you will find a detailed account of the time of Jacob's trouble......which begins with Michael (a powerful angel) standing up (standing still).....and no longer providing protection for Israel. Then all hell breaks out.....not only for Israel but for the whole world. The retrainer is Michael the archangel.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 49472418
United States
11/18/2013 10:47 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Pre-Tribulation-----Mid-Tribulation------Post-Tribulation

A House Divided

Brothers, Sisters

Please hear my heart

I have been reading here and my heart aches to see such division amongst the body. Was it not our Saviour who beseeched us to Love one another as He Loved us all?

I understand the concerns of my Brothers and Sisters that do not hold to the pre-tribulation understandings of scripture. This concern is of others being deceived and then discouraged to the point of loosing faith if they find themselves living through what they thought they would be spared. I honestly don't see malice in these concerns but an honest desire for others to remain strong in their faith as this world descends into a level of evil that few, if any, have ever experienced.

I also understand those who do see the pre-tribulation view as scriptural. It provides hope that we may be excluded from a very great evil that we all agree is to come. Again, I see no malice on the part of those that find evidences for this in scripture.

I do Pray for a pre-tribulation rapture. Not for myself as I truly do not see myself as worthy but for the Grace of Salvation. I'm a husband and a dad. My heart grows weak at the thought of my wife and children going through what is to come.

That being said I Pray for Faith and strength to deal with what ever may come. I know the Lord IS coming. I also know that in Him alone I will seek shelter from all that may come. Jesus is my protector as well as my Saviour.

I post this not to ad to the debate or to choose one side or the other. I have no new evidence to support or dissuade from one point of view or the other. I post this to remind us ALL to love one another. I post this to point towards Jesus regardless of what may come. I post this to encourage ALL to remain strong and steadfast in Jesus Christ and be assured, He has risen and will surely return.

With much Love

God Bless us ALL
 Quoting: RAG 49148771


Nice words........thanks much.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 48301823
Mongolia
11/18/2013 10:54 PM
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Re: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture
Here are just couple of examples:

1. The Restrainer leaves before the Antichrist comes. Pre-Tribbers believe the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit dwelling in Christians. They believe they will leave when He does.

2. There is no mention of the Church or Bride of Christ after the 1st Seal is broken.


*********************************************

For #2.......are you saying those specific two things only??....Church.....Bride of Christ.


How about........"souls of those slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held."


or... "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


For #1......it is somewhat bizarre (no offense) to believe that the Holy Spirit is only inside of Christians. The Holy Spirit, being God, is virtually everywhere.....certainly anywhere that He wants to be......and nothing escapes His notice.


If you read the book of Daniel.......you will see that Daniel's prayer was held up 21 days because of the warfare that goes on between angels.

The Book of Daniel is addressed to Israel and the Daniel's prayers were for Israel. The 70 week prophecy involves the duration of Israel's punishment.....how long God will hide His face from Israel.

In the last Chapter of Daniel......you will find a detailed account of the time of Jacob's trouble......which begins with Michael (a powerful angel) standing up (standing still).....and no longer providing protection for Israel. Then all hell breaks out.....not only for Israel but for the whole world. The retrainer is Michael the archangel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49472418

I believe the slain souls will be those who get saved after the rapture.

There will also be Jews who get saved after the rapture.

But I think it will be like the Old Testament times again. Then it wasn't enough to just believe. You had to believe and perform to be saved. I think it will be like that time again. The Holy Spirit was present then too, but in a different way I think than He is today in the hearts of believers, which came at Pentecost.





GLP