For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

believe the slain souls will be those who get saved after the rapture.

There will also be Jews who get saved after the rapture.


*********************************************


This is part of Pre-Trib doctrine.........."the Tribulation Saints"........and I do not wish to make people angry about such discussions. But we can discuss our different viewpoints.


My take on this particular issue.......is that the door to Salvation will be closed......when the man of evil shows up. God will send a strong delusion upon the world......and those who have lived a life of rebellion against Him.....will be turned over to their unbelief.

Hence......there will be no new believers coming to Christ after the man of evil shows up. This will be similar to how God hardened Pharoah's heart.


"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteious deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

I gotta go to bed but I listened to Weaver and he is wrong. Not only that, but he doesn't even mention First Thessalonians where Jesus comes down with a shout.

He is a false teacher.

There is no rapture of the wicked...he is dead wrong.
What is the point of the tribulation to oome upon all who dwell on the earth (EARTH) if the evil are raptured? The argument, with all due respect...is so wrong that even a grade-schooler could see that.

Jesus himself said that if he did not come back, no flesh would be saved. So by your argument, if the evil or wicked people are raptured out or removed, then Christians remain to incur God's wrath? Even though we are not appointed to wrath? There is a difference, with all due respect - to having persecution/tribulation and going through God's wrath.

Okay, bedy-by time...Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Brother, these words you posted would have been (nearly my words - about twenty years ago).

The deeper one studies this subject, the more profound (and truly critical) the subject becomes...as the Holy Spirit brings (redundant layers of cross-linking scriptures to this topic), and how it relates to the purpose of the Church, as being His bride.

Remember, persecution and tribulation for the faith is a "token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God."

Paul reinforces these (above) words of his, just eight verses later, as he lays out the key sequence of events (of the coming of the Lord, and the gathering of the church to Him), via the resurrection first, then we, who are alive and remain at His coming.

This is critical to understand (as the "Great Persecution/Tribulation") comes upon the world...so believers understand that this is part of His eternal plan.

Paul is so forceful in this proper understanding that he says (in 2 Thess. 3:14) that if any of us ("obey not our word in this epistle"...in other words believe contrary to (Paul's sequence of events, and to not accept the truthfulness of persecution/tribulation nearing the coming of the Lord), then Christians are to no longer even have company with him.

He even says that being deceived on this subject is "unrighteousness", chap. 2:10, (and takes it even another step, and says: "in them that perish"!) Why God? Why is being deceived on this subject, deemed, unrighteousness and deemed, to be "with them that perish"? "Because they received not the love of the truth" v. 10.

Paul makes this very strong teaching...because the consequences are so great - and God's purposes for His bride are interrelated.

Praise God

This has been addressed in the thread many, many times. Have you read the OP or Summary?

Suffering is the lot of Christians; Jesus promised it to all his followers. It has been true all this time and continues to this day. This has been due to the forces of evil, satanic and human, and God has used it to purify the Bride of Christ.

But the 70th week of Daniel is NOT for the Bride of Christ; it is for Israel and the unbelieving world. This purpose is stated explicitly in the prophecy. Only by melding together the church and Israel can anyone apply it to the church. If one takes this approach to scripture, there will never be any resolution to this debate. Recognizing the two as separate entities is crucial, and I will not pursue that rabbit trail here, since the purpose of the thread is to explain the pre-trib view, not debate dispensationalism vs. covenant theology.


Do not mistake your interpretation of Paul as what Paul must have meant. There are many topics upon which Christians think the scriptures are crystal clear but which both sides disagree completely. It's fine for us to have our personal convictions, but not fine to pass them off as divine infallibility. I simply present my views without declaring them infallible, and it would be helpful if others would do the same. Calling anyone who takes a view you disagree with "deceived" is very arrogant.

I have explained the pertinent passages multiple times, so please refer to those for how I see it.



Praise God

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/19/2013 06:54 AM

Old Testament. Proverb. Not prophecy.

Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

Untold thousands believe in the "rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because people don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame.

The late Corrie ten Boom called the pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine."

The belief in rapture of believers before the tribulation is also attributed to the best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which became popular in the l960s. It has pushed aggressively by most evangelicals and fundamentalists in America.

Videos, Theologians, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.

The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream. She told her Pastor, John Darby, about the dream. He then relayed the dream to C. I. Scofield - who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture myth as a footnote in his popular Bible, which began the spread of the myth.

The monstrous heresies first brought into the Church by Cyrus Scofield, a corrupt, crooked lawyer funded by Zionist Jews from New York City in the late 19th century. Scofield's heresies promoting a Jewish kingdom and an earthly Zionist New World Order to be ruled over by a god-like Jewish race, without any Christian gentiles around to mess things up, soon became fashionable among some apostate denominations, especially among the Southern Baptists and their heavily Masonic Lodge membership.

Sadly, millions of "evangelical" and "fundamentalist" Christians actually believe that in helping Satan and the Beast set up their bloody kingdom on earth, they are, in reality, serving God.

Their disregard for scriptural integrity brings graphically to mind our Lord's dire warning that as the end of time draws near, the religious of this world will kill true Christians and think they do God service (John 16:2).

In Matthew 24:29-3l, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it!

Pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for the biblically - riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.

All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.

We cannot use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul and insert them into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references.

Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.

Holding to a pre-tribulation rapture is more than academic squabbling. It drastically weakens believers world wide.

Believers should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

Instead, Believers are living with false hope that they will be raptured before the tribulation.

This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see to it that through in this age of laxity there is minimal resistance to the dark powers. The apostate segment is doing its fair share of blackening truth.

It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that there are wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant.

Those who are not strong will drop — fall away, as predicted in the Bible. They will be too numerous. For those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.

The remnant is already being strengthened by the Holy Spirit. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.

Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
.

Your opinion is not to be equated with "Biblical truth". You just might be wrong, you know.

Please, please read the OP and Summary.

Set your vision on CHRIST, not the Antichrist.

.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/19/2013 07:15 AM

Is that what happened here? Where did anyone "wish for the immediate death of someone" in that comment?

Poor reading comprehension, coupled with poor thinking skills have not served you well.

=========================================================
Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee:

Run all you want Keep2theCode.

Your days are numbered.
=========================================================

^
DEATH WISH.

Your own reading comprehension is the poorest I've seen.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/19/2013 07:21 AM

What can be said to someone who thinks they understand?

Saying this "A House Divided, Brothers, Sisters" is enough for us to know that discernment is a rare thing.

Jesus speaking

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Why are SO MANY people fooled by a person who claims to be Christian? Why are they so willing to believe?

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

If people, who claim to be Christian, can't recognize a clumsy liar, what hope do they have when the deception REALLY begins?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I will not believe someone is a Christian, simply because they make that claim. Jesus showed us how to have discernment and yet weak minded people, who say that they are Christian, miss the message. Why?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

If a person claims to be Christian, why don't they know the Bible? Why do they keep talking about their feelings instead of what the Bible says?

Weak minded people? What hope do they have?

OP, the chief of deceivers in this thread, does not understand any better than the weak minded Christians who talk about their feelings instead of what God said in the Bible.

Every person's days are numbered, are they not?

Who knows when their day will come?

Your drama is a ruse to fool the people who can't understand your deceptions, but there are those of us who do understand and that must trouble you a great deal.

Keep dancing. You are fun to watch.

God sends this strong delusion. They don't have eyes to see and ears to hear. They are asleep spiritually, in a stupor and believe almost anything they are told by man.

I and 2 Thessalonians talks about our gathering back to Christ at the 2nd Advent. Not before, in some fly away rapture.

The Greek is very specific and strict about the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 Thess 2:1

Paul doesn't want you to be confused by some man's word, evil spirit, word by a so-called teacher or even by a letter from Paul concerning the return of Christ.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thess 2:2

This is the beginning of a number of events that MUST take place first. A falling away or apostasy will occur. Apostasy is a giving up of one's professed belief. For example worshiping a false Jesus thinking he is the True Jesus.

The son of perdition will be revealed upon the earth. Now, there is only one son of perdition, only one at this time is sentenced to perish in the lake of fire. That entity is none other than Satan himself.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:3

He will exalt himself above Christ and God, even those who worship in another religion. He will sit in the temple of God claiming to be God. Where is this? It is in Jerusalem, God's most favorite place which he has made a covenant with in Ezekiel 16. This is the Antichrist. For he will call himself Christ.

Many who don't read God's Word but rather listen to men who say "Don't worry, just have faith your going to be gone anyway" are going to be deceived believing he is the True Christ.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:4

STOP WITH PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Stop making disparaging remarks about the PEOPLE who disagree with you.



STOP!

This thread is NOT ABOUT ME, NOT ABOUT ANYONE. It's about prophecy. Talk about prophecy!

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/19/2013 08:09 AM

Actually this thread is about your deceptions and your insistence that everyone agrees with you. Why do you keep lying to people about the rapture?

If you believe what you say about it, why didn't you ask those people to pray for your rapture when they kept asking you?

This thread is about you saying that the rapture is true, but you won't ask anyone to pray for your rapture? Why not? Don't you want to be raptured? Don't you want to go where the Bible says that raptured people go?

So yes, this thread is about you. Either you believe the rapture is true or you don't believe it. Those of us who understand your deceptions know that you are afraid that people will pray for your rapture, even if you have not asked them to pray for it.

Not all of us are weak minded Christians. Does that scare you? Yes, you are afraid and with good reason.

Poster, I am not looking for the Anti-Christ...I am looking for Jesus. There is no way I can be deceived or confuse a man who is of "fierce Countenance" with Jesus Christ. I do worry in a sense because in the world we will always have tribulation so because we are in the beginning of sorrows, we all can have things happen to us. Look at Washington, Illinois. Any number of things could happen to you or I while we are here...in fact, I could get hit by a car tomorrow. I don't know how anyone who is a TRUE believer would be confused about a man who makes a peace treaty with Israel for seven years...and what that means. Part of being a Christian is knowing scripture and being full of the holy spirit. However, the "restrainer" will still be available to people on earth because God is omnipitant (sp) so he is everywhere...all of the time. Many Jews who have become Messianic Jews believe in the pre-trib rapture because there are many things that parallel a Jewish wedding...etc. Again, we are to watch for Jesus, who comes like a thief. I am awaiting my crown of righteousness...because I await our Savior. There is no room for deception for me. The church age is about to end and the 70 weeks puts it's focus again on Daniel's 70th week, which is for the Jews and unbelievers and lukewarm.

Now for some coffee.........

OP you say, "But the 70the week of Daniel is not for the bride of Christ" Wow! - when Paul prefaces his sequence of evens of the end time coming of Christ...with those very words of persecution and tribulation for the church!

Then you say, "Do not mistake your interpretation of Paul as what Paul must have meant." Again wow! I quoted what he meant...no interpretation needed.

Praise God

I started the thread; I decide what it's about. And I stated clearly that it was to refute LIES being spread about the pre-trib Rapture.

YOU and your comrades continually present YOUR opinions as what EVERYONE MUST BELIEVE, and that ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU is lost, stupid, heretical, satanic, or deceived.

YOU.

YOU are the liar.


Now can you actually grasp and discuss the TOPIC, or will you continue your campaign of hate, slander, and venom?


I already know the answer to that question.

No. You are severely confused. You are using circular reasoning.

"No interpretation needed" is another name for the so-called "plain reading" method, which I call the "lazy" method. You who do this only use it when it suits you.

Praise God.

And read the Summary!

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/19/2013 08:56 AM

Well put.

Yes, you started the thread. Yes, you have told us what it is about, but saying that a thread is about cats while you are talking constantly talking about dogs does not make the thread about cats.

You keep lying to people about the rapture, as if it's a good thing for them. That link to the pastor preaching about the rapture of the wicked is true and that scares you. You know that when you get raptured, you are going to hell. You keep telling people that the rapture takes them to God, but you know that it really takes them to hell.

Your emotions don't concern me. They only tell us that you know that you have lost this battle and that you are destined for hell. Even though you have not asked any of us to pray for your rapture, I think it's a fitting thing to pray for you, so that you can be with the people who believed your lies about the rapture.

Your fear of the truth is showing.

Whose thread are you describing? The only people here who are talking about dogs is YOU and YOUR comrades. You think the thread is SUPPOSED to be about dogs and that I'm the one trying to change the topic!

Wow.



Your hypocrisy and the log in your eye is sticking WAY out.

NOW STOP AIMING AT PEOPLE AND MAKING IT ABOUT PEOPLE!

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/19/2013 09:00 AM

Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]


1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation


First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:



This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament


Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


=============================================================​=========

[link to www.fether.net]

-------------------------------------------------------

I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal: Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:



So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal: The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?



Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,



We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:



So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.

Also, kindly look back at my post...I did not call anyone (who takes a view I disagree with) "deceived".

Rather...I quoted Paul, (who calls anyone who "obeys not this epistle", meaning disagrees with him), "deceived".

So yes - this is back to one of my original points: namely, that this is a hugely important issue. Christians better get this right! Now think about that Christians:

Why is this issue so, so important, and one not to be deceived on, that Paul says, (if you disagree with him, you're then, deceived, and by holding that belief, worse than deceived, with them that "parish")?

Again, I ask, why?

If you're wrong (by believing the word about the church going through the Great Tribulation, or "Great Persecution"), and therefore seeking to prepare yourself (which is part of "the bride making herself ready" - many other scriptures here, proves this) and to not take the Mark...how severe of consequences then?

Compare to the other side (believing Pre-trib): Does it not make sense, with history, precedent, and the many end time scriptures, that those that claim Christ - but unwilling to suffer ("because we're not supposed to be here"), is MORE APPROPRIATE FOR SUCH HARSH WORDS BY PAUL?

Praise God

You can tell us...... did the devil make you start this thread?

If you have not figured it out yet, your opinions don't matter to me. I know that you are lying. Other people here know that you are lying.

Anyone who won't ask people to pray for him to be raptured, when he is telling them that being raptured is a good thing that will join them with God is selling us poison. If you want us to believe that the water is good to drink, then it should be obvious to us that you should be drinking it as well. If you won't drink from the same cup that you are telling us to drink from, then you know that it's poison.

Prayer is a powerful thing, isn't OP? What would you have us pray for you?

Yes, you did, by implication. You quoted Paul OUT OF CONTEXT by imposing your personal interpretation about what you think he was referring to.

READ. THE. SUMMARY.

You are talking about me personally; I asked you to stop. You are inferring that I am satanic; you are a liar and slanderer.

And if my opinions don't matter to you, then STOP READING MY THREAD AND POSTING IN IT.

One more time:

This thread's purpose is TO REFUTE LIES BEING SPREAD ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

It is NOT about anything or anyone else.

If you don't like it, stop clicking on it.

If you are so AFRAID that I might influence someone, let the thread die; stop bumping it.

But if you continue to click, post, and bump the thread, you show by your actions that you DO intend to troll, you DO care what I think, and you DO have an unhealthy obsession with people and ideas you hate.

Those are the facts.

Yes, you are a liar. You are lying to people about the rapture while claiming to be telling them the truthj. I am asking you to stop lying and to tell people the truth. Jesus is calling you a liar. I'm just His typist.

Here is a man who is not a liar.

Pastor John Weaver - The Rapture of the Wicked
[link to www.sermonaudio.com]