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Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18267374
United States
12/04/2012 04:09 PM
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Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
Hola guys, I'm starting this thread in hopes of chatting with other alternative fuel engineers on this site about the long fabled 150MPG style ICEs we've been hearing about the last 50 years.

Now, before you try and explain that the entire concept is a grease monkey pipe dream, I've a few things to point out about the designs you've probably seen in youtube videos and various magazine articles over the years.

1. The majority of designs on the internet are incorrect, as most use the excess heat of the engine to vaporize the fuel beforehand and feed it into the intake manifold in place of a carb, or, on cheaper kits, directly into the carb. The excess heat of an engine generated during the process of vapor combustion is minimal, being between 50-100 degrees Fahrenheit with no cooling system, and probably lower depending on external temp if you still were to use a cooling system (continuing to use a cooling system would actually be a redundancy, you could cut the weight of the vehicle and further increase efficiency by dropping a radiator and fan completely). So, no heat, no vapor, debunked yes? Wrong.

Answer to problem one: DFI. Modern vehicles with fuel injection already use a pressurized gas line connecting to an injector that averages mist droplet sizes of between 120-140µm. You need no external heating source to induce proper vaporization if you changeover a DFI Block's injectors to misting at 10µm, which is considered to be the most efficient size for complete combustion of petrol based fuels.

2. The idea that heat is the primary force acting within the ICE is a complete and utter line of bullshit, spun up by Big Auto and Big Oil, and championed everywhere by so called "experts" who paid a lot of money to go to schools nationwide filled with instructors teaching from books influenced by the Transportation Cartel. Heat is a waste product generated via incomplete combustion, with mechanical force being generated by the rapid expansion/oxidation of the primary power source. This ones kinda like the chicken and the egg argument. Lets think about what combustion is. Rapid Oxidation. Burning. The type of combustion going on within an engine is very rapid, explosive combustion. The energy carried within each molecule does not change based on state of matter, due to the law of conservation of energy within a closed system, so no matter what, combustion will release the same amount of energy from either 350cc of 10µm gas particles or 350cc of 120µm, the difference is, a complete burn at 10µm will release much more energy in a purely kinetic form(the rapid expansion) than it will as heat, as opposed to larger droplet sizes, which have a much more even ratio. Build a small one cylinder engine and test it out if you don't believe me. A complete burn also leaves you with a dramatic reduction in emissions, meaning no need for catalytic converters or other emissions equipment, which means even more efficiency, and even more horsepower.

3. It's not a garage kit project. The construction of a changeover unit for modern vehicles sounds easy in principle, and was said to just be a certain carb you could pop on your intake back in the 70s, but it really isn't. There are still unanswered questions about what type of pressures to expect from the mechanical force generated via vapor combustion, the pressure ratios needed to keep power and efficiency up, and whether or not a spark plug would even be needed for such an engine, as pressure alone on fuel vapor could be enough to ignite the burn (this is very important for the changeover, if a sparkplug is not needed you can cut out plug wires, plugs obviously, and distributors, basically using a diesel engine as a starting block for the change instead, this might be a wise idea actually as the increase in pressures from combustion would be easier to manage in a cast iron diesel block rather than in the half aluminum unleaded blocks of today. It would also be possible to pipe gas "fog" that's generated using an ultrasonic fogging unit into a carb and skip DFI, however, that leaves you with a vehicle much more prone to explosion during any type of accident involving impact with the region of the car housing the vapor chamber and vapor lines.

I'm open to all criticism and all thoughts, as anywhere I can be proven incorrect is an area for improvement, but the principle of the idea works damn well in my opinion, and I have seen one of these units in action before, my Dad has an old 74 fire-bird with a vapor carb kit, but it only works as advertised if enabled after preheating the engine with normal combustion, and then it only works until the heat dissipates, at which point it kills itself off due to the lack of a heat source to generate said vapor from liquid gasoline.

So, thoughts?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 18267374
United States
12/04/2012 04:37 PM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
Guess I'm correct, as the shill's heat argument is null and void, and most people don't care to or know how to build one but would love to buy one, lol.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17770974
United States
12/04/2012 05:25 PM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
Interesting.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17770974
United States
12/04/2012 05:31 PM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
I have no degree, but in my opinion, cars really havent come that far in the past 100 years. Most engines and systems that come with it have been the same for the past 50 years. Most new cars have a crapton on circuitry, but most the power systems are the same. Alot of new cars elimintaed the driveshaft woth the Trans Axle (transmission and rear axle). I think hybrid techmology is subpar, considering how much info there is of Electro motive forces. I think there is much.more room for improvement, not.only in.the efficeny.field, but the power output to.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 18267374
United States
12/06/2012 01:05 AM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
I have no degree, but in my opinion, cars really havent come that far in the past 100 years. Most engines and systems that come with it have been the same for the past 50 years. Most new cars have a crapton on circuitry, but most the power systems are the same. Alot of new cars elimintaed the driveshaft woth the Trans Axle (transmission and rear axle). I think hybrid techmology is subpar, considering how much info there is of Electro motive forces. I think there is much.more room for improvement, not.only in.the efficeny.field, but the power output to.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17770974


You're correct. Increasing efficiency also increases possible power output though. A more complete burn enables more horsepower to be generated per cubic inch.

The car hasn't changed, it's just the toys also installed in it. :P
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21926154
United States
12/06/2012 01:15 AM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
Hey. I was into this stuff for a bit.

Then I read one article that dimmed my lust.

Basically, the Pogue carburetor. It vaporized fuel very efficiently and gave cars great mileage.

So the gas companies put additives into the fuel to prevent the fuel from vaporizing properly...

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

That never even occurred to me. But after I read about it, it seemed so obvious. Why would they not do that?

So, now... if you want to experiment with this stuff- because you have to do all the experiments yourself, because like you said, they sprinkle flat out wrong information in everywhere, you have to not only build new engines from scratch, but the fuel as well

That exceeded my little home budget.

Good luck though.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 18267374
United States
12/06/2012 01:31 AM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
Hey. I was into this stuff for a bit.

Then I read one article that dimmed my lust.

Basically, the Pogue carburetor. It vaporized fuel very efficiently and gave cars great mileage.

So the gas companies put additives into the fuel to prevent the fuel from vaporizing properly...

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

That never even occurred to me. But after I read about it, it seemed so obvious. Why would they not do that?

So, now... if you want to experiment with this stuff- because you have to do all the experiments yourself, because like you said, they sprinkle flat out wrong information in everywhere, you have to not only build new engines from scratch, but the fuel as well

That exceeded my little home budget.

Good luck though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21926154


I've thought about that. It's an issue I hadn't really worried much about, as I've been wondering if filtration would be possible somehow. There has to be some way to do it in my opinion.

Thank you for the encouragement though. gonna try designing a fuel delivery system for my 79 trans am. It's already barebones when it comes to emissions stuff as it's mostly aftermarket under the hood. I'm thinking about using a throttle-body carb in place of the holly 650 I have currently, and placing 10 Micron sprayers in it.

But then the problem of fuel must be tackled, like you said. I don't know how much merit there is to the anti-vapor additives, but it'll be interesting to find out none the less.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22608009
United States
12/25/2012 07:51 PM
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Re: Vapor ICE: Theorycrafting for the Engineering GLPer
Bump for good information.

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