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To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:17 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
...


I do not assume, ultimately I do not know, but I have an image that suits me. Humans exist because the universe has inexorably followed the rules, governing the interaction of matter, that were imbued into the universe at the moment of creation. I assume I am correct because this model fits comfortably with what I have learned about physics, biology, chemistry and astrophysics.
 Quoting: Prostetnik

So that is what is called making an educated guess. But what LABEL to you place on yourself? Do you call yourself an agnostic because, ultimately, you do not know? I guess we humans must always add our labels to ourselves and to others. In this thread, the question is posed to atheists and agnostics, which are really two different types of belief systems.

You sound like you could be a type of creationist? If that is true, you should have tons of questions you should be asking yourself. And if you studied subjects like physics, biology, chemistry and astrophysics, I would assume that not many of your classmates are creationists? Maybe you aren't either, but that is why we need to see that label.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


Agnostics cannot claim that Christianity is bullshit, Scientology is bullshit or that Mormonism is bullshit.

Saying one does not know for certain how we got here does not make that person an agnostic.

An agnostic believes he cannot judge whether ANY supernatural claims are true or not, regardless of how silly the claim is.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


Then what do you call a person who thinks that Christianity, Scientology and Mormonism, etc., is bullshit but doesn't know how exactly we got here? Is there a name for such a being? An atheist is a person who knows for certain that there is no God. A Mormon, for instance, knows for certain that when they put their trust in Joseph Smith they are believing truth. A Christian knows for certain that the only way to heaven is through Jesus. So what is the person called who thinks all religions are basically bullshit but who isn't a complete atheist either.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


Look up the difference between weak and strong atheists.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

But there are several more such as pantheism, ignosticism, certain eastern religions (although Confucianism and Buddhism and such are more philosophies) etc. etc.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/05/2012 11:19 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
and also..while i am at it; the big bang theory DOES NOT Say there was nothing, it merely states that the universe was a incy- wincy tiny spec, that is all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


Yes, but back to the beginning. How did it all happen? What was the catalyst to ignite it all? Doesn't this point to a divine being? How can it all "just happen"?

I guess another question that stems from this is, given what we know (and don't know) Why do people outright refuse to believe that there is a God? I'm not on a Bible thumping mission here. I am simply trying to understand this. Seems like people need to revisit what "Faith" means.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


why is it so crucial to you that atheists believe in god?

does this threaten you?

atheists do not believe in god because it makes sense to them.

evolutionists believe in evolution because it seems a logical answer

creationists believe in genesisis because that's what rocks their world

i don't expect anyone to share my beliefs, in fact, i welcome the differences

please have your ego pressure checked.
 Quoting: david 16910407


No, I am not threatened. I simply wish to understand. Out of absolute nothing things just started to happen? Seems unlikely. It isn't my intention to ask a pointed question here. I just wanted to stimulate a discussion regarding the start of it all. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:21 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
It seems some of you choose not to believe in God (or Gods) simply on the basis of proof or evidence of his existence. There is no proof that he does exist and there is no proof that he does not exist. Isn't it part of the human psyche to believe in SOMETHING? I think we all need to believe in something or else there is a great emptiness within us. I argue that humans NEED to believe in something. It makes us who we are. Perhaps when a person does not believe in something it is what drives them to do horrible acts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


no offense OP but....logical fail.

plenty of believers to horrible things all the time. actually plenty of horrible acts have been comminted BECAUSE of a belief in a god.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:22 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
OP, please show us the theory that says something was created out of nothing
NSF001

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12/05/2012 11:22 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
Oscillating universe theory gets my bet. There were universes before ours and there will be universes after ours. Maybe.

Theory.


That's the difference here. In science something remains a theory until it has been empirically shown time and again. Science uses falsifiability to test itself until there is no point of testing any further, at which point something becomes a scientific fact.
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others laying low,
vying with those who you've traded your life to to bless your soul,
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:25 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
It seems some of you choose not to believe in God (or Gods) simply on the basis of proof or evidence of his existence. There is no proof that he does exist and there is no proof that he does not exist. Isn't it part of the human psyche to believe in SOMETHING? I think we all need to believe in something or else there is a great emptiness within us. I argue that humans NEED to believe in something. It makes us who we are. Perhaps when a person does not believe in something it is what drives them to do horrible acts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


Sorry but I don't feel the need to believe in a god of gaps. Not knowing for certain works fine for me.

Nor am I so immoral or lack empathy so much that I do horrendous stuff to others just because I might not be "punished" for it. If you do feel like that I suggest you go and find professional help.

Also if your arguments were true then I am sure that a Christian nation such as the US or peace loving Islamic countries such as Somalia would have significantly lower murder rates then atheist hellholes such as most of North Western Europe, South Korea or Japan. Oh wait......
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:26 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
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The likely counter for this argument is that assuming a God is simply "moving the goalposts" back and begs asking ok then how did God come about?

The answer is of course, the place outside of this universe where God would reside (multiverse, God's dimension, etc) has no issues logically with something coming from nothing or something beyond around for eternity. This is less a proof for God and more a proof for something existing outside of this universe.


In any case God is not mathematically or scientifically provable at this time by design. Because we don't have enough empirical information to say for sure, you are "free" to "hope" for either a universe created by God (in which you will have eternal life) or one where you were born a random accident with an infinitesimally small lifespan with little chance to impact the universe around you to any discernible degree. I hope/believe/have faith in for the former. But I am likely an optimist in a atheist eyes, and fittingly they seem rather more pessimistic to me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1549626


That's not evidence for even a monotheistic description of God. Let alone any specific one such as God described in the Bible or Allah in the Qu'ran.

If your argumentation can be used to provide "evidence" for the existence of a pantheon of gods (such as Hinduism or the Roman pantheon) then it is utterly pointless.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


No it's not useless it simply isn't as simplistically definitive as you would like (a far to common fallacy of the empirically minded who like throw Occam at ever complex argument). To simply say it doesn't preclude the existence of other Gods in other religions so therefore it bunk, is completely unlogically dismissive of what it does say. I quite well pointed out that I thought the idea of God was completely unprovable.

But that is different then saying there isn't evidence. I see far too many people claim "there is not one shred of evidence supporting the claim of God". It's not true. There is plenty of evidence. Plenty of historical evidence for most of the claims the bible makes. Can a reasonable argument be made for alternative explanations in most cases? Sure. But that by itself isn't falsification which is far too often the assumption.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1549626


Uhm?

Please show 1 contemporary non-Biblical piece of evidence or reference even of any supernatural occurrence that is described in the Bible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


I understand what you are asking for but the evidence you "want" doesn't have to exist for there to be evidence. Dismissing the bible in kind is being dismissive of evidence that is available. It is perfectly reasonable especially given the date of the account that the bible is the only source. Not to mention that the bible isn't one source but actually an account written by multiple sources. It just happens to be compounded into one Volume.

but since you asked for non-biblical here you go: Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation)

He directly reports that there were Christians who in fact did claim that Jesus rose from the dead. You can be dismissive of these reports if you would like. You can come up with any number of reasonable explanations as to why they might say what they said. But the account remains evidence. You may not think they are very credible but they remain evidence despite your feelings on their credibility.
Prostetnik

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12/05/2012 11:26 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
It seems some of you choose not to believe in God (or Gods) simply on the basis of proof or evidence of his existence. There is no proof that he does exist and there is no proof that he does not exist. Isn't it part of the human psyche to believe in SOMETHING? I think we all need to believe in something or else there is a great emptiness within us. I argue that humans NEED to believe in something. It makes us who we are. Perhaps when a person does not believe in something it is what drives them to do horrible acts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


Yes, many do need their existence to fit together neatly. If it did not they would get nothing done, because of the sheer mount of study needed to form a personal cosmology. Most people have real lives to get on with.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:28 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
It seems some of you choose not to believe in God (or Gods) simply on the basis of proof or evidence of his existence. There is no proof that he does exist and there is no proof that he does not exist. Isn't it part of the human psyche to believe in SOMETHING? I think we all need to believe in something or else there is a great emptiness within us. I argue that humans NEED to believe in something. It makes us who we are. Perhaps when a person does not believe in something it is what drives them to do horrible acts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


Your bias is clear OP

In point of fact I do believe in many, many things.

It is hard for me to imagine a human being with absolutely no beliefs.

I do not believe it is helpful to believe in things for which there is no clear proof.

I believe to do so is to engage in delusional fantasy.

I believe that the correct attitude is to cultivate a thirst for the truth, whatever it may be.
Maguyver

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12/05/2012 11:31 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
According to you, in the beginning there was nothing. Absolutely nothing and from this nothing started something. Not sure what triggered the "something", but it started. Over time this "something" evolved into everything we see today. You, me and everything else.

What started the "something"? What is "nothing"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


I'm an atheist and I don't claim to know that with any certainty.

I only know that all current explanations of any god(s) are utterly worthless. And I see no reason to presume the need of something described as god for me to exist. But again I don't know for certain.

I can't see why religious people feel the need to answer those questions solely with faith and not a single shred of physical evidence. Aren't you just revering a god of gaps?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


It's not 'evidence' in a scientific sense that makes people religeous or spiritual. It's the feeling that there is more to life than just what we take in through our five senses.

If one has ever had an out of body experience, an DNE, seen a ghost, felt a presense, had dejavu, or any of hundreds of other extrasensory happenings, one has to ask, "is there more to this existence?" "How did that just happen?"

So, I cannot be agnostic. I know there is more than just dirt, air, fire and water. So far, science hasn't come up with an answer to the questions above. Consider this, is there is a realm beyond the human condition?

cheers
Adversity is inevitable, misery is optional.

Do or do not. There is no try.

"The enemy will never attack where you are strongest...He will attack where you are weakest. If you do not know your weakest point, be certain, your enemy will." Sun Tzu
Prostetnik

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12/05/2012 11:31 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
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You miss the point entirely. The question of atheism has been raised by someone else. Reading other threads in here, it is clear that when something is left undefined, all sorts of irrelevant things rise up. Also some people make assumptions about the people they are talking to, based on the words they use. I think this could be a very valid discussion if it were better defined.
 Quoting: Prostetnik

But I think you are missing the point as well. First off, if NO ONE really knows how we got here, and no one does, then it doesn't really matter what label a person places on themselves. I, for instance, say I am an atheist because I don't believe in any Gods. But, I am not so cocky as to say I know for certain because humans are basically stupid, and that includes me.

No one knows, that is the bottom line. We don't know if the Big Bang theory is correct, partially correct or absolutely wrong. So, in the end, if I give myself the label of atheist, I am probably lying to myself, in a way. I don't really know. Maybe the Muslim God is the one true God. Maybe God is in everyone. Maybe this life is nothing but a dream. No one knows.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


You are still missing the point. Someone else (not me) raised a question with an ill defined term. Something they need to rectify, because this thread and others like it are for discussing peoples perceptions of reality and hopefully learning from.

Ultimately all imaginings about the cosmos, are just that, imaginings. To conceive of ideas so broad and vast, we build an image in our minds eye. Each image is personal and exists only in the mind of the holder. There are groups of people who hold similar imaginings, because they like to rely on potted answers to questions too big for their processing capacity. Every idea, like "big-bang" was conceived in someone else' mind and then they attempt to give clothes to the idea with mathematical formulae, so that they can place a similar image in the mind of another.
 Quoting: Prostetnik

BUT...maybe I am misunderstanding...but what does the LABEL have to do with it? There are millions of Christians out there, for instance, and every single one of them has a different idea about who God is. The fact is, most people model their idea of God on their own personality. That is why their God always thinks like they do, always likes and hates the same things. In the end, God is just an extension of their ego. Maybe that doesn't sound kind, but I honestly believe it is true. It has to be.

I noticed that you didn't give yourself a label? WHy not? Because I think you are confusing labels with ideas. No one knows how we got here. What does it matter if someone calls themselves an atheist or an agnostic? If they don't honestly know, then we are just throwing ideas around. And each and every person will believe something a little bit different than the next person. There are big ideas, like the Big Bang theory, but inside that big idea are tons of people who have little ideas that may or may not be exactly what the orginal people who made up the Big Bang theory would desire them to have. In the end, this is just a discussion between people who have many different ideas about how we came to be. Labels shouldn't be important.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814

Yes, that is what people come here for. To do this they need to agree on basic terms otherwise they will all shout at cross purposes. Also requiring an agreed upon understanding has a way of hoisting weak positions by their own petard.
david
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12/05/2012 11:33 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
and also..while i am at it; the big bang theory DOES NOT Say there was nothing, it merely states that the universe was a incy- wincy tiny spec, that is all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


Yes, but back to the beginning. How did it all happen? What was the catalyst to ignite it all? Doesn't this point to a divine being? How can it all "just happen"?

I guess another question that stems from this is, given what we know (and don't know) Why do people outright refuse to believe that there is a God? I'm not on a Bible thumping mission here. I am simply trying to understand this. Seems like people need to revisit what "Faith" means.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


why is it so crucial to you that atheists believe in god?

does this threaten you?

atheists do not believe in god because it makes sense to them.

evolutionists believe in evolution because it seems a logical answer

creationists believe in genesisis because that's what rocks their world

i don't expect anyone to share my beliefs, in fact, i welcome the differences

please have your ego pressure checked.
 Quoting: david 16910407


No, I am not threatened. I simply wish to understand. Out of absolute nothing things just started to happen? Seems unlikely. It isn't my intention to ask a pointed question here. I just wanted to stimulate a discussion regarding the start of it all. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.

sorry op, i didn't mean to appear so edgy. i welcome the open discussion. i have just seen too. many of these threads become an insult fest.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746
Prostetnik

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12/05/2012 11:34 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
OP, please show us the theory that says nothing was created out of nothing
 Quoting: Oyster


Here try this idea:

A Universe from Nothing

[link to www.amazon.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:35 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You can believe in God or you can chooses not to. Or, you can think that's it's beyond human comprehension. It that case, the question is irrelevant.
Maguyver

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12/05/2012 11:38 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
OP, please show us the theory that says nothing was created out of nothing
 Quoting: Oyster



Oh, I just cannot resist: 0+0=0 That would be a proof.

simple math. (I don't think that's what you meant, though!)

cheers
Adversity is inevitable, misery is optional.

Do or do not. There is no try.

"The enemy will never attack where you are strongest...He will attack where you are weakest. If you do not know your weakest point, be certain, your enemy will." Sun Tzu
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:38 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
i don't reject nor accept religious stories, conspiracy theories, the existence of aliens or anything else in the paranormal category. i'm simply indifferent until i see it with my own eyes. only fools accept things on blind faith.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:39 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
...


That's not evidence for even a monotheistic description of God. Let alone any specific one such as God described in the Bible or Allah in the Qu'ran.

If your argumentation can be used to provide "evidence" for the existence of a pantheon of gods (such as Hinduism or the Roman pantheon) then it is utterly pointless.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


No it's not useless it simply isn't as simplistically definitive as you would like (a far to common fallacy of the empirically minded who like throw Occam at ever complex argument). To simply say it doesn't preclude the existence of other Gods in other religions so therefore it bunk, is completely unlogically dismissive of what it does say. I quite well pointed out that I thought the idea of God was completely unprovable.

But that is different then saying there isn't evidence. I see far too many people claim "there is not one shred of evidence supporting the claim of God". It's not true. There is plenty of evidence. Plenty of historical evidence for most of the claims the bible makes. Can a reasonable argument be made for alternative explanations in most cases? Sure. But that by itself isn't falsification which is far too often the assumption.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1549626


Uhm?

Please show 1 contemporary non-Biblical piece of evidence or reference even of any supernatural occurrence that is described in the Bible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


I understand what you are asking for but the evidence you "want" doesn't have to exist for there to be evidence. Dismissing the bible in kind is being dismissive of evidence that is available. It is perfectly reasonable especially given the date of the account that the bible is the only source. Not to mention that the bible isn't one source but actually an account written by multiple sources. It just happens to be compounded into one Volume.

but since you asked for non-biblical here you go: Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation)

He directly reports that there were Christians who in fact did claim that Jesus rose from the dead. You can be dismissive of these reports if you would like. You can come up with any number of reasonable explanations as to why they might say what they said. But the account remains evidence. You may not think they are very credible but they remain evidence despite your feelings on their credibility.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1549626


Look up the word contemporary please (of which this is not an example).

Nor does his testimony provide any reference to a supernatural act as described in the Bible (think darkness over all the land during the day for 3 hours at Jesus'es crucifixion as described in Mark 15:33).
Dr.DoomLittle

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12/05/2012 11:39 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
According to you, in the beginning there was nothing. Absolutely nothing and from this nothing started something. Not sure what triggered the "something", but it started. Over time this "something" evolved into everything we see today. You, me and everything else.

What started the "something"? What is "nothing"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


Do not presume what I believe.
Dr.DoomLittle

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12/05/2012 11:42 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
According to you, in the beginning there was nothing. Absolutely nothing and from this nothing started something. Not sure what triggered the "something", but it started. Over time this "something" evolved into everything we see today. You, me and everything else.

What started the "something"? What is "nothing"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24090746


You are building a Straw Man, then attacking it. You have just started ”something" with "nothing".

Agnostics would not presume to think there is no god, and equate Atheists in the same category as Christian fanatics.

Neither Christians nor Atheists know with tangible evidence.

Therefore, both are wrong.

Please don't lump agnostics in with Atheists.

Agnostics dont have to "prove" anything, because there is no initiative to assimilate and make you believe what I do... Therefore the view remains uncorrupted.

Last Edited by Intergalactic Diplomat on 12/05/2012 11:45 AM
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:43 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
OP, please show us the theory that says nothing was created out of nothing
 Quoting: Oyster


Here try this idea:

A Universe from Nothing

[link to www.amazon.com]
 Quoting: Prostetnik


lol, i want to read that.

"Now, in a cosmological story that rivets as it enlightens, pioneering theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss explains the groundbreaking new scientific advances that turn the most basic philosophical questions on their heads. One of the few prominent scientists today to have actively crossed the chasm between science and popular culture, Krauss reveals that modern science is addressing the question of why there is something rather than nothing, with surprising and fascinating results. The staggeringly beautiful experimental observations and mind-bending new theories are all described accessibly in A Universe from Nothing, and they suggest that not only can something arise from nothing, something will always arise from nothing."
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:43 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
OP, please show us the theory that says nothing was created out of nothing
 Quoting: Oyster



Oh, I just cannot resist: 0+0=0 That would be a proof.

simple math. (I don't think that's what you meant, though!)

cheers
 Quoting: Maguyver


lol, guess i need to go edit my post.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:47 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You have to understand the concept of "ALL THAT IS" meaning. that EVERYTHING has ALREADY EXISTED... NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE OF

"ALL THAT IS"

All that is separates itself to create a reflection of itself, to experience itself.

The process continues. Further and further away from the source of "All that is" until you reach the human condition.

Which is still "All that is" experiencing itself.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:51 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
Yes, good question.

But on the other hand, if God created the "something", then who created God?

Both questions, imo, are equally valid and perplexing.
 Quoting: Thor's Hamster



I believe this is a well-accepted explanation of this.


[link to www.youtube.com]
Prostetnik

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12/05/2012 11:53 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You have to understand the concept of "ALL THAT IS" meaning. that EVERYTHING has ALREADY EXISTED... NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE OF

"ALL THAT IS"

All that is separates itself to create a reflection of itself, to experience itself.

The process continues. Further and further away from the source of "All that is" until you reach the human condition.

Which is still "All that is" experiencing itself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


You must have enjoyed "God's Debris" By Scott Addams.
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:53 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
Also "Atheism" is really tied into "Mysticism"
Anonymous Coward
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12/05/2012 11:56 AM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You have to understand the concept of "ALL THAT IS" meaning. that EVERYTHING has ALREADY EXISTED... NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE OF

"ALL THAT IS"

All that is separates itself to create a reflection of itself, to experience itself.

The process continues. Further and further away from the source of "All that is" until you reach the human condition.

Which is still "All that is" experiencing itself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


You must have enjoyed "God's Debris" By Scott Addams.
 Quoting: Prostetnik


I've never heard of it.

But its why people who are Christian are confused.

They believe that GOD (All that is) exists outside of them, when in fact we exists within "All that is".

It creates confusion because they begin to believe that GOD controls their life outside of their power. Because "HE" (yeah they even give him a gender) exists outside of them.

They also give him human traits like jealousy and judgement.

However, God is ALL THAT IS. It does not have a gender. It is "isness" itself encompassing EVERYTHING.

The creation that is created out of the separation IS the point of life.
Prostetnik

User ID: 29135854
Canada
12/05/2012 11:58 AM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
Yes, good question.

But on the other hand, if God created the "something", then who created God?

Both questions, imo, are equally valid and perplexing.
 Quoting: Thor's Hamster



I believe this is a well-accepted explanation of this.


[link to www.youtube.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29140865


Thank you hf What a clever, slippery tongued presenter. I found his arguments very entertaining.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 29140865
Canada
12/05/2012 12:00 PM
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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You have to understand the concept of "ALL THAT IS" meaning. that EVERYTHING has ALREADY EXISTED... NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE OF

"ALL THAT IS"

All that is separates itself to create a reflection of itself, to experience itself.

The process continues. Further and further away from the source of "All that is" until you reach the human condition.

Which is still "All that is" experiencing itself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


You must have enjoyed "God's Debris" By Scott Addams.
 Quoting: Prostetnik


I've never heard of it.

But its why people who are Christian are confused.

They believe that GOD (All that is) exists outside of them, when in fact we exists within "All that is".

It creates confusion because they begin to believe that GOD controls their life outside of their power. Because "HE" (yeah they even give him a gender) exists outside of them.

They also give him human traits like jealousy and judgement.

However, God is ALL THAT IS. It does not have a gender. It is "isness" itself encompassing EVERYTHING.

The creation that is created out of the separation IS the point of life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


That is a wonderful god you have there, but it is NOT the Christian God. The only information we have of God is from the Bible, therefore, what it states is who God is. Where you have gotten you information from is beyond me. Care to share?
Prostetnik

User ID: 29135854
Canada
12/05/2012 12:02 PM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You have to understand the concept of "ALL THAT IS" meaning. that EVERYTHING has ALREADY EXISTED... NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE OF

"ALL THAT IS"

All that is separates itself to create a reflection of itself, to experience itself.

The process continues. Further and further away from the source of "All that is" until you reach the human condition.

Which is still "All that is" experiencing itself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


You must have enjoyed "God's Debris" By Scott Addams.
 Quoting: Prostetnik


I've never heard of it.

But its why people who are Christian are confused.

They believe that GOD (All that is) exists outside of them, when in fact we exists within "All that is".

It creates confusion because they begin to believe that GOD controls their life outside of their power. Because "HE" (yeah they even give him a gender) exists outside of them.

They also give him human traits like jealousy and judgement.

However, God is ALL THAT IS. It does not have a gender. It is "isness" itself encompassing EVERYTHING.

The creation that is created out of the separation IS the point of life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


You of all people must read this book:
[link to books.google.ca]
Prostetnik

User ID: 29135854
Canada
12/05/2012 12:06 PM

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Re: To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.
You have to understand the concept of "ALL THAT IS" meaning. that EVERYTHING has ALREADY EXISTED... NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE OF

"ALL THAT IS"

All that is separates itself to create a reflection of itself, to experience itself.

The process continues. Further and further away from the source of "All that is" until you reach the human condition.

Which is still "All that is" experiencing itself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


You must have enjoyed "God's Debris" By Scott Addams.
 Quoting: Prostetnik


I've never heard of it.

But its why people who are Christian are confused.

They believe that GOD (All that is) exists outside of them, when in fact we exists within "All that is".

It creates confusion because they begin to believe that GOD controls their life outside of their power. Because "HE" (yeah they even give him a gender) exists outside of them.

They also give him human traits like jealousy and judgement.

However, God is ALL THAT IS. It does not have a gender. It is "isness" itself encompassing EVERYTHING.

The creation that is created out of the separation IS the point of life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21573370


That is a wonderful god you have there, but it is NOT the Christian God. The only information we have of God is from the Bible, therefore, what it states is who God is. Where you have gotten you information from is beyond me. Care to share?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29140865


The only thing we get from the bible is some information about the class of Abrahamic Gods. The class of Abrahamic Gods include those of Islam, Judaism and Christianity and all their subclasses. There are many other sources of information about alternate, and equally plausible god concepts.