To the athiests and agnostics I have a question.

Yes, good question.

But on the other hand, if God created the "something", then who created God?

Both questions, imo, are equally valid and perplexing.

indeed, and the same question back.. Before God created the universe there was nothing..unless of course you assert that god and the universe are the same thing.

So, god existed before god created the universe, so how did god create the matter from which the universe is formed ?

it is exactly the same question.

Well, on the point of God it takes faith. Faith being a complete trust or confidence is something or someone. This I can come to terms with.

On the other hand, there is "nothing". Nothing creating something. There simply is no fallback for this logically.

and also..while i am at it; the big bang theory DOES NOT Say there was nothing, it merely states that the universe was a incy- wincy tiny spec, that is all.

God has no beginning. He is the eternal. This is something our little human minds can't comprehend.

Obviously it was all created by an invisible bearded man in the sky who wants me to stone my unruly children and slay homosexuals.

There still is nothing. There never has been "something".

Don't forget to commit blood sacrifices in his memory, and to eat the remains of his only kid weekly to gain favor...

Yes, but back to the beginning. How did it all happen? What was the catalyst to ignite it all? Doesn't this point to a divine being? How can it all "just happen"?

I guess another question that stems from this is, given what we know (and don't know) Why do people outright refuse to believe that there is a God? I'm not on a Bible thumping mission here. I am simply trying to understand this. Seems like people need to revisit what "Faith" means.

Nah, I think you speak of something misguided humans interpreted. I'm no theologian though...

Yea, that does seem odd, but I chalk it up to me being ignorant of what communion really is about.

I prefer my faith be preceded by a heaping helping of fact. Fact is religions are control structures full of dogma imposed by an elite group on the masses.

communion = cannibalism

This could be a good thread if the agnostic and athiest quit associating the debate with Christian arguements and focus on the arguemnt of wheather or not the is a higher power. After that, then whittle it down to religeon. Thanks...let's have a civil debate.



Oh...question: how did DNA form? What was the second step after amino acids were formed in the primordial goo?

If we owe our existence to god, and he created us some 6000 years ago, and supposing god is eternal, then who or what worshiped god before us? The existence of god is only viable if he has worshipers.

Even if there should be a God, which there probably isn't, why should we assume that this is some personal God. Maybe God is a spark of energy, electromagnetism, or something that we humans are too stupid and primitive to begin to understand. But, in that case, God would not be a personal God. God would not know you, care what you do, know what you think, punish you if you are bad, etc. That kind of God is completely out of the realm of logic.

Facts today are proven to be otherwise tomorrow. I relate to what you are saying about religions being "control structures". I guess I have two points on that.
1. Does anyone have to subscribe to a specific religion to believe in God? Can't a person believe in God, live a good life, and not step into a church a single day? I'm sure the church will say no, but I tend to disagree.

2. Some "control structure" would probably be very beneficial to some people in this world. We see the results of any lack of impulse control play out daily around us. I think they may gain something from it.

This is potentially a very good question. There is a problem asking it in this way, and so things need clarifying to get the answers you are looking for. First you have to strike "agnostics" from the question. They do not know and make no claims. Atheists need to be be distinguished between those that are atheist because they do not believe in the one true God and those who reject all god concepts.

LOL! Seems like it, but there has to be more to it than what we see.

Chaos/entropy does not require a higher power. Lots of things happen in randomness. Life happened. We just happen to be it. No big mystery or need to create a creator to explain that in the vastness of reality life happened.

There are just as likely innumerable places where life started only to fail. We happened to be on one speck where it did not. Entropy is an amazing thing...

I think the question needs clarification on what constitutes an atheist.

DNA? Again, I have no idea. It had to of started somewhere, but from nothing?

That puts you in the camp of people who think they have a right to tell the rest of us what to do. Not such a good thing....

It's good to have unknowns and work towards understanding them. It's terrible to simply make up answers. If your imagination limits you from understanding emergent properties and how something extremely basic can give rise to the complex... that's your problem.

Could you explain how a cell phone works to an ant? Perhaps that's what it's like for us humans to understand the beginning of the universe. Maybe the construct of "beginning and end" is false and a testament to our limited understanding. Why does something have to have a beginning?

Again - not having an answer does not warrant us to make one up. We can use our minds to reach sane conclusions.

The universe is my God... Love is my faith

Valid points. I probably could have worded the question better. You bring up yet another question. If a person worships the devil, why? This makes no sense to me either. The thought of his world is not something I would want to take part in on a idle Friday night...

I hear ya, but someone determined to kill me is not a good way to live their life. Could turn out badly for both of us.

Why nitpick? It is just a discussion. NO ONE knows the answers to these things. If you say you do, you are nothing but a liar. No one knows how we got here. So does it really matter if someone is an atheist, Baptist, New Ager, etc.? The answers are all speculation. If we knew exactly how we got here, there would be no discussion here today. RIGHT?

Then by your own admission you believe in a God. Not a pointed statement, but it is a belief in "Something".

LOL! True. The question remains. Wouldn't an atheist be someone who believes in nothing? No God. Things started just because...

Well, then, perhaps on some idle Friday night, you should pick up your Bible and read it. God killed millions upon millions of people in the Bible, many of them innocent. When God commanded people to invade a village, he always told them to kill men, women, children, infants and livestock. God killed thousands of innocent people because David took a census. So how many people did Satan kill? Well, I will answer that for you. He killed 10, Job's family, but FIRST he asked God for permission to do it.

God commanded people to kill a man who was picking up some sticks on Saturday. There is a Psalm verse in which God says something like happy is the man who takes your infant and dashes his head against the rock. Is this REALLY the kind of God you want to worship? I am an atheist, for the most part. I don't believe in any Gods from any religion. But I can understand COMPLETELY why people would worship Satan. He seems like he just might be the good guy in that demented fairy tale called the Bible. I, of course, think it is ridiculous to worship God OR Satan. I think people just need to grow up, basically. You know what I mean?