Refute this if you can.

The 1st heaven is from ground level to the height of the earth's clouds, above that is the realm of the Angelic beings, known as the 2nd heaven which is from the moon to the ends of the universe. The place where God was when He spoke in Ge:1 is called the 3rd heaven.

Ge:1:7:
And God made the firmament,
and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament:
and it was so.
Ge:1:8:
And God called the firmament Heaven.
And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Ge:1:20:
And God said,
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,
and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Re:12:1:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

id have to meet you in person

you havent refuted my point

So, uhm, when was the beginning? 6000 yrs ago? or 6 billion years ago?

When the zombies run freely my friend...

run free................just dont try to eat me

Only to the point that 'heaven' has 3 divisions.

Zombies don't like -fast -food

im aware of this............he wouldnt know im fast until he sees me

first it says he created the heaven and the earth.

later it says the earth was without form and void then later it says.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

the first heaven is the universe since heaven is mentioned before earth and not after.

the second heaven is the atmosphere since it comes after the mention of the second heaven and is also called the firmament. the firmament is the sky, conceived as a solid dome. according to genesis, God created the firmament to separate the "waters above" (the source of rain) from those below (the ocean).

again look how its worded here... 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

it says firmament of heaven.

Nothing is the stuff that surrounds things

Not really...God exists even without our understanding Him. Human words only scratch the surface in description of God.

You are getting into areas not really touched by a lot of people... part of which is tacit and explicit knowledge. If I asked you to bake a cake...you could explicitly write down directions to steps of baking a cake...start with two eggs and some flour... Tacit knowledge is our knowledge without words. A good example of tacit knowledge would be driving. Try giving EXACT directions telling somebody how to drive your car to the store...do you know how many pounds of force are needed to press the accelerator to bring the car up to speed? Do you know how many degrees to turn the wheel to make the right handed curve in the road? I would bet you can drive to the store...but, you could not explicitly describe all of the steps to get there. That is kind of like the relationship we have with God...some parts of the relationship can be explained with words...other parts cannot be explained with words.

All that said...I would say that there was no universe...and God uttered His own words...and the universe came into being.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...I am tired ;-)

^^^^^^^exactly what i believe, he spoke the words and they came to be. we cannot even begin to understand the knowledge and power God has.

i cant imagine being able to speak a spec of dirt into existence let alone a entire universe and everything in it and then proceed to create life.

OK, it's refuted.
If you are serious, you are so lost.
You can not make assumption from something that is a translation. The meanings are generic, not specific as in the original language. Then there are those things that lose something in the translation........

The language spoken during the time of Jesus was Aramaic. It DOES NOT translate into English or other languages easily at all. Many Aramaic words have no English translation.

The language spoken during the time of Jesus was Aramaic. It DOES NOT translate into English or other languages easily at all. Many Aramaic words have no English translation.

The language spoken during the time of Jesus was Aramaic. It DOES NOT translate into English or other languages easily at all. Many Aramaic words have no English translation.

have YOU heard the Word?

You are actually going to try and say the 1611KJV is a bad translation when there were Jews that were consulted to make sure it was done accurately? Or that they could not translate the original Greek (in that the Jewish writers could write flawless Greek)when it already came as a text. I would be more concerned with proving that the Torah at the time of Babylon was the same one Moses gave them in that it was an oral book, you have to be fucking kidding to promote they kept it flawless. Granted with God having Daniel and 3 friends in Neb's Babylon they would have had the Angels help in restoring the OT book (all of them_) back to flawless condition and that means every word in every sentence is just the way God wants it. BTW the writing that explain the OT in the Talmud are corrupt because they didn't have all the available information before they made their conclusions.

Last Edited by MHz on 12/06/2012 02:14 AM

"words are abstracts, symbols too"

zero begat zero
0 x 0
= oo
these are symbols.

Wow! It is like Babel in here.

How can we start a story of our beginnings if we cannot even agree that to begin this story we first have to have words?

Hello McFly!

Really??

This is a basic Truth, yet no one wants to accept it.

There is nothing religious to it.

There is no mistranslating.

As the OP is written it is irrefutable.

Why?

Because if you try to refute it you will need WORDS.

WORDS are already admitted to be the beginning.

Simply WORDS.


That is what you are all arguing over, WORDS.

That is why religions, philosophy, and nations are divided, WORDS.

Yet so few will come to terms with that.

You are letting the WORDS rule you, instead of RULING with words.

And I am the idiot! LOL

This post is not a refutation but instead a clarification of that which is. Ask and you shall receive.

The process of creation starts with thought—an idea, conception, visualization. Everything
you see was once someone’s idea. Nothing exists in your world that did not first exist as pure
thought.
This is true of the universe as well.
Thought is the first level of creation.
Next comes the word. Everything you say is a thought expressed. It is creative and sends
forth creative energy into the universe. Words are more dynamic (thus, some might say more
creative) than thought, because words are a different level of vibration from thought. They
disrupt (change, alter, affect) the universe with greater impact.
Words are the second level of creation.
Next comes action.
Actions are words moving. Words are thoughts expressed. Thoughts are ideas formed. Ideas
are energies come together. Energies are forces released. Forces are elements existent.
Elements are particles of God, portions of All, the stuff of every thing.
The beginning is God. The end is action. Action is God creating-or God experienced.

All creation begins with thought (“Proceeds from the Father”). All creation then moves
to word (“Ask and you shall receive, speak and it shall be done unto you”). All creation is
fulfilled in deed (“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”).
6. That which you think of, but thereafter never speak of, creates at one level. That which
you think of and speak of creates at another level. That which you think, speak, and do
becomes made manifest in your reality.

Last Edited by Seeker of Truth on 12/06/2012 11:05 AM

(in mr.rogers voice) Can you say another man made belief system.....I thought you could....was that so difficult neighbor ??

Man made huh?

What is Man?

Man is a word. Words represent ideas. Ideas are formed within Man.

Therefore, Man is an idea, within an idea, within an idea, within an idea...

Change the idea of what YOU are.

meh

Actually they say that everything is all ONE so there CANNOT BE any 2 or 3, etc..

There is only 1.

Just saying...

The Word WAS God. The difference.