Godlike Productions - Conspiracy Forum
Users Online Now: 2,407 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 730,589
Pageviews Today: 1,053,427Threads Today: 271Posts Today: 5,927
09:53 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 07:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Catholic means Universal. This Church is for The World
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 23593144
United States
12/08/2012 07:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard
Jesus was an essene, a gnostic. Read the Nag Hammadi. They were the true christians. The christians today follow the religion of the roman emperor Constantine. The jews and catholics killed them off. They called jehovah the greatest evil in the world. We know that too. The judeo christian religions are killers and nothing more,.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 07:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Hum,, No answers to WHat religion is God Jesus
Also Jesus didnt read from a Catholic book
And I see no answer to the Hitler/Catholic Pics.??
................

Understand I am NOT trying to be mean..
But we are told NOT to worship Idols, as the Catholics do and We are NOT to Pray to Mary.. But to Jesus..
You NEed to understand Religion is Man made therefore it is EVIL..
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Without " Religion " You wouldnt know Jesus. I Dont WORSHIP IDOLS. I ASK MARY to Pray FOR ME and WITH ME. SHE is Blessed FOREVER and YOU Disrespect Her. Jesus said SHE is YOUR Mother and MINE. Talk to HER. As to those Pics, Ive stated many times The Church is FAR from perfect. I dont know the validitiy of them... GOD gave us FREE WILL. Catholics can follow whoever they want. SATAN HATES the Catholic Church so he Tries to take it down. But he will NEVER succeed. Jesus was From The tribe of Judah and he Fulfilled the OT. The NT quotes The OT many times. There is no more Law to follow, he completed the law. Thats why we have the NT
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272
The catholic church along with judaism and islam are indeed satan. Nothing like people separating themselves from the human race and being chosen5a. History has shown that slavery and killing is what the followers do best.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23593144


Never said I or Catholics were chosen. We ARE ALL Chosen. I choose LOVE. What do you choose?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 07:41 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard
Jesus was an essene, a gnostic. Read the Nag Hammadi. They were the true christians. The christians today follow the religion of the roman emperor Constantine. The jews and catholics killed them off. They called jehovah the greatest evil in the world. We know that too. The judeo christian religions are killers and nothing more,.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23593144


Nothing more Satanic than a Gnostic. You really believe your worthy of being a God?? Please. We fell from Grace in the Garden. We are ALL SINNERS
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24011342
United States
12/08/2012 07:42 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Mr. Gravyard, could you do me a favor? Could you ask the apologist a question for me? I would like to know "From what time frame do Catholics claim that the flesh they say is in the Roman Catholic communion come from?"

He doesn't seem to be able to see my questions. Too bad...I also included a pretty little link to the full question and some attempts by some Catholics to answer that question here...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.

Thanks Mr. Gravyard!
Mrgravyard

User ID: 28926569
United States
12/08/2012 07:49 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Yea I have a friend who is Pentacostal.. He believes You have to be baptized and Do all kinds of things to get to Heaven.. Sad.. Again RELIGION...
I wonder if Jesus came to those who are into Religion and said " get away from that religion" what WOULD they do?
I think their Religion is More important than Christ..
Sad.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 07:52 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Mr. Gravyard, could you do me a favor? Could you ask the apologist a question for me? I would like to know "From what time frame do Catholics claim that the flesh they say is in the Roman Catholic communion come from?"

He doesn't seem to be able to see my questions. Too bad...I also included a pretty little link to the full question and some attempts by some Catholics to answer that question here...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.

Thanks Mr. Gravyard!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


This is MY BODY, This is MY BLOOD. I dont care if you dont believe me. I am here to help. Just the fact some Churches dont even have Eucharist should be your clue that they are wrong. He is ALIVE
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 07:53 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
OP I applaud your efforts but cast not your pearls before swine, they will trample them, then turn and attack you.
 Quoting: PEER 21008556


Wise words friend. But I must try. Jesus died for YOU and I. So I must carry my cross
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


even wiser words :-)

you should watch that video called a vision of the return of Yeshua on the front page. It is really very well done!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 07:56 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Yea I have a friend who is Pentacostal.. He believes You have to be baptized and Do all kinds of things to get to Heaven.. Sad.. Again RELIGION...
I wonder if Jesus came to those who are into Religion and said " get away from that religion" what WOULD they do?
I think their Religion is More important than Christ..
Sad.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Jesus added 1 commandment. To LOVE. Im here to spread LOVE as best I can, As a follower of Christ. If you dont believe in Jesus I Personally cannot Damn you to HELL. I have NO SAY in Your Thoughts or actions. If You live a Respectful life, who am I to say you cannot enter heaven
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24011342
United States
12/08/2012 07:59 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Mr. Gravyard, could you do me a favor? Could you ask the apologist a question for me? I would like to know "From what time frame do Catholics claim that the flesh they say is in the Roman Catholic communion come from?"

He doesn't seem to be able to see my questions. Too bad...I also included a pretty little link to the full question and some attempts by some Catholics to answer that question here...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.

Thanks Mr. Gravyard!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


This is MY BODY, This is MY BLOOD. I dont care if you dont believe me. I am here to help. Just the fact some Churches dont even have Eucharist should be your clue that they are wrong. He is ALIVE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


Strange...I thought you were an apologist? Doesn't an apologist "defend doctrine"? Your best defense of the lie of transubstantiation is..."I don't care if you don't believe me" LOL!

Catholic apologist = oxymoron !!!
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:01 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Welcome back!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29215367


Hello. Greetings!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


You are the Catholic apologist...here is a question for you:

You say that you are literally eating the flesh of Jesus at the Roman Communion. What time frame did the flesh come from?

Here is the link to the full question...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


Jesus the Bread of Life

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
 Quoting: John 6


There are a lot of misconception about the Church. People don't hate the Church they hate their misconceptions.

The Sacraments all find their root in scripture.

The Bible came from the Church. Not the other way around. Jesus started a Church so the question must become which Church:

No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
 Quoting: 2 Corinthians 11:19


Would the Holy Spirit lead different Churches into different 'truths'? No! Jesus is the way the life and the truth - there is no duplicity in Him! The divisions we see in the Church today are from the adversaries.

So again which Church did Christ entrust with the Great Commission? Which Church did He promise to lead into all truth? Which Church did He promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. In my research I find it is the Catholic Church, and this is a matter of historicity.

And beware Gnosticism as it is explicitly condemned on more than one occasion in the Bible, and their 'deep' teachings are called the depths of Satan.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
 Quoting: John6
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 08:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
OP I applaud your efforts but cast not your pearls before swine, they will trample them, then turn and attack you.
 Quoting: PEER 21008556


Wise words friend. But I must try. Jesus died for YOU and I. So I must carry my cross
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


even wiser words :-)

you should watch that video called a vision of the return of Yeshua on the front page. It is really very well done!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21008556


When i have time i will check it out. Its NICE to hear KIND words, when vengeance and anger surrounds. God Bless
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
John 6:66 many people stopped following Christ because of the teaching that we must eat His flesh or drink His blood. Consider this:

13 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.”

3 Then Moses said to the people, “Commemorate this day, the day you came out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, because the Lord brought you out of it with a mighty hand. Eat nothing containing yeast. 4 Today, in the month of Aviv, you are leaving. 5 When the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites and Jebusites—the land he swore to your ancestors to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey—you are to observe this ceremony in this month: 6 For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the Lord. 7 Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders. 8 On that day tell your son, ‘I do this because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ 9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the Lord is to be on your lips. For the Lord brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand. 10 You must keep this ordinance at the appointed time year after year.

11 “After the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites and gives it to you, as he promised on oath to you and your ancestors, 12 you are to give over to the Lord the first offspring of every womb. All the firstborn males of your livestock belong to the Lord. 13 Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons.

14 “In days to come, when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ say to him, ‘With a mighty hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed the firstborn of both people and animals in Egypt. This is why I sacrifice to the Lord the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’ 16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the Lord brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.”
Crossing the Sea

17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, “If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.” 18 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea.[a] The Israelites went up out of Egypt ready for battle.

19 Moses took the bones of Joseph with him because Joseph had made the Israelites swear an oath. He had said, “God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up with you from this place.”

20 After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. 21 By day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. 22 Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.
 Quoting: Exodus 13
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:06 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
the last post is a bit speculative and is not without problems (primarily that the numeration of paragraphs and chapters is a later addition, yet I can't help but wonder if there is significance in it), but it is interesting nevertheless.

I figured I'd give you a hand, we have to stick together on this site. :-)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24011342
United States
12/08/2012 08:08 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Welcome back!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29215367


Hello. Greetings!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


You are the Catholic apologist...here is a question for you:

You say that you are literally eating the flesh of Jesus at the Roman Communion. What time frame did the flesh come from?

Here is the link to the full question...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


Jesus the Bread of Life

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
 Quoting: John 6


There are a lot of misconception about the Church. People don't hate the Church they hate their misconceptions.

The Sacraments all find their root in scripture.

The Bible came from the Church. Not the other way around. Jesus started a Church so the question must become which Church:

No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
 Quoting: 2 Corinthians 11:19


Would the Holy Spirit lead different Churches into different 'truths'? No! Jesus is the way the life and the truth - there is no duplicity in Him! The divisions we see in the Church today are from the adversaries.

So again which Church did Christ entrust with the Great Commission? Which Church did He promise to lead into all truth? Which Church did He promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. In my research I find it is the Catholic Church, and this is a matter of historicity.

And beware Gnosticism as it is explicitly condemned on more than one occasion in the Bible, and their 'deep' teachings are called the depths of Satan.
 Quoting: PEER 21008556


Please take the time to read the thread. Your attempt at a Scriptural defense of the lie of transubstantiation is sad and almost comical.
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:08 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
I usually just point sincere people who are earnestly seeking answers to questions about the faith to www.forums.catholic.com.

They cover all the issues we have discussed today in depth, with power and simplicity.

Any pursuit of truth begins with an admission of ignorance. Seek and you will find, but when you seek, seek in earnest.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:10 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
@ 24011342


I counter your strawman by pointing it out as such. Do not appeal to emotion but to the reasons of men, why should you insult these readers and seekers of truth?
Now then, what have you?

"We should not expect childish answers to adult questions."

C.S. Lewis
Mrgravyard

User ID: 28926569
United States
12/08/2012 08:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Well I quit wasting my time here.
Jesus Died for ALL of our Sins. We are ALL sinners,, If You Repent and Thank Jesus for Dying on the Cross for You and Believe with all Your Mind and Heart You go to Heaven.
Thats it no Religion.. Thats what I believe and I feel for those who think otherwise..
I know In my heart when I die or am Raptured I go to Heaven.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 08:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Show me Proof that Jesus said MY Church is a Catholic Church... Where in the Bible is Catholic used..
And I mean OT or NT.. not the Catholic bible.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


Mr. Gravyard, could you do me a favor? Could you ask the apologist a question for me? I would like to know "From what time frame do Catholics claim that the flesh they say is in the Roman Catholic communion come from?"

He doesn't seem to be able to see my questions. Too bad...I also included a pretty little link to the full question and some attempts by some Catholics to answer that question here...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.

Thanks Mr. Gravyard!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


This is MY BODY, This is MY BLOOD. I dont care if you dont believe me. I am here to help. Just the fact some Churches dont even have Eucharist should be your clue that they are wrong. He is ALIVE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


Strange...I thought you were an apologist? Doesn't an apologist "defend doctrine"? Your best defense of the lie of transubstantiation is..."I don't care if you don't believe me" LOL!

Catholic apologist = oxymoron !!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


You are probably jealous because you were Never able to receive Holy communion. Its HOLY. Not just a cracker. You cannot be won over even if i showed you a miracle. Thats why i cannot spend my life fighting to Convert YOU. YOU are set in your ways. YOU dont like my church, whatever i tell you, you will argue. My Church was created by Jesus. I dont need to pick my bible up and nitpick. My FAITH is my SHIELD.
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:16 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
On transubstantiation (originally posted as mrphilosophias)

The Catholic belief of the True presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is not amibuous, but indeed, by it is meant just that-His Holy Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, but under the appearance of bread and wine. The Holy Eucharist is the Pinnacle of the Catholic faith, it is a gracious, generous, loving, and miraculous sacramental gift from God(and to us), and sacrificial offering of the Holy Mass(from Him to us-from us to Him), in union with the prayers, hymns, and Worship, of the Holy Angels and Saints in Heaven, and the Church militant here on Earth. Here is a profound mystery we Catholic faithful hold dear: that the worshipful Celebration of the offering and Sacrifice of the Mass, which is the Perfect atoning sacrifice of the unblemished Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world, an offering which He has made for us and our behald for the praise and glory of His name, for our good, and for our salvation, it is verily the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is to participate in the celebration of Heaven here on Earth.

some resources if you are interested in at least understanding the perspective which us Catholics share, and hold dear:

[link to www.catholic.com]

[link to www.catholic.com]

[link to www.newadvent.org]

[link to www.scborromeo.org]


If you would like to rely of scripture alone(sola scriptura) as a means of gleaning and discerning matters of faith, salvation, and morals, then it may benefit you to ponder where in the world this Divinely inspired text came from, how it came to be, and by what authority. If you examined this issue than you would understand that the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament are articles which were transcribed and shared by, and amongst, the faithful in the early Church. The Apostles obviously had authority pertaining to matters of faith, salvation, morals, and dogma, and this is apparent throughout the epistles. The authority granted to Peter and to the Apostles is plainly apparent in the Gospels and epistles; this authority comes from Christ who is the Cornerstone, and with Peter as His Rock, and the Apostles, to minister to His people, to feed and tend to His flock, by the adminstering of the Holy Sacraments which Christ left for us, and to spread the Gospel throughout the world-baptizing in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

How many Churches can there possibly be which can say that they are Christs Church? Certainly in the beginning there must have been a common/shared faith with a standardized set of beliefs right? Can the Holy Spirit of God lead His people into contradictory truths? When you look at the sheer number of schisms which have multiplied, and divided His Church, especially since the protestant 'reformation'(which wasn't really "reformation" at all was it?), and you consider the spectrum of beliefs pertaining to critical issues of faith, morals, and salvation, then you must ask yourself the question: can they all be right? Can the body of Christ be divided? Which Church is the Church that Christ left for us? I've struggled with this issue of the True Presence prayerfully and sincerely, and it was a tumultuous time for me, but He has rewarded my faith for it, and placed me on a firm foundation. One great place to start is by reading the writings of the Fathers of the Early Church, and see what the Church of the first three centuries believed and practiced. Consider the words of the Nicean or apostles creed: "we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church". Which Church is the oldest Church is existence? Some Churches claim Luther, others calvin, but which Church has Christ as its founder? Is there apostolic succession and continuity through spiritual generation(laying on of hands) in one Church from then to now?

I have included some relevant excerpts from the Fathers of the Early Church specifically relating to what they wrote pertaining to matters of faith, salvation, and practice in regard to the Holy Eucharist. Seek and pray-trust in Him and lean not on your own understanding, then He will direct your paths, and you will find the truth, and the truth shall set you free!





Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Jhn 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Jhn 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
Jhn 6:59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um.
Jhn 6:60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"
Jhn 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Jhn 6:66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
Jhn 6:67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"
Jhn 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;
Jhn 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


It is quite clear that Jesus meant what He said, if you just consider:

The Bread of Life discourse begins with the Passover, or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is a sacred commemoration of the divine intervention of the Lord God when He used Moses to deliver the Jewish people from the oppressive bondage and idolatry of the Egyptian Empire with Great Power & Miracles. The Jewish people were crushed in their slavery, but called upon the Lord God who they believed was greater than even the impressive Egyptian idols. The Lord despises idolatry, for their is no other God but Him. He heard the humble, sincere prayers of the Jewish people which were offered up in faith, and He looked upon them with mercy, compassion, and love, and He set Himself against the repulsive idols and false-gods of Pharaoh. The Honor & Glory belongs to Him. So the Lord delivered His chosen people out of the land of oppression and idolatry and did Great things for them. This historical story is one of the foundations of the faith of the Jewish people. It is detailed in the book of Exodus.

This celebration and commemoration of Passover would have been going on at the time this discourse is said to have taken place. The stories and ideas of the unleavened bread, and the Manna from Heaven as the Jewish people were chastened and refined by the fiery heat of the Desert, were certainly fresh on the minds of the Jewish people among the multitude, that were estimated to number about 5000.

Now consider the story of the Manna in the desert:

Exd 16:1
They set out from Elim, and all the congregation of the people of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had departed from the land of Egypt.

Exd 16:2
And the whole congregation of the people of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness,

Exd 16:3
and said to them, "Would that we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the fleshpots and ate bread to the full; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger."

Exd 16:4
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not.

Exd 16:5
On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily."

Exd 16:6
So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, "At evening you shall know that it was the LORD who brought you out of the land of Egypt,

Exd 16:7
and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your murmurings against the LORD. For what are we, that you murmur against us?"

Exd 16:8
And Moses said, "When the LORD gives you in the evening flesh to eat and in the morning bread to the full, because the LORD has heard your murmurings which you murmur against him--what are we? Your murmurings are not against us but against the LORD."

Exd 16:9
And Moses said to Aaron, "Say to the whole congregation of the people of Israel, 'Come near before the LORD, for he has heard your murmurings.'"

Exd 16:10
And as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the people of Israel, they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exd 16:11
And the LORD said to Moses,

Exd 16:12
"I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, 'At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"

Exd 16:13
In the evening quails came up and covered the camp; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp.

Exd 16:14
And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

Exd 16:15
When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.

Exd 16:16
This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of the persons whom each of you has in his tent.'"

Exd 16:17
And the people of Israel did so; they gathered, some more, some less.

Exd 16:18
But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.

Exd 16:19
And Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it till the morning."

Exd 16:20
But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it till the morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.

Exd 16:21
Morning by morning they gathered it, each as much as he could eat; but when the sun grew hot, it melted.

Exd 16:22
On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers apiece; and when all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

Exd 16:23
he said to them, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay by to be kept till the morning.'"

Exd 16:24
So they laid it by till the morning, as Moses bade them; and it did not become foul, and there were no worms in it.

Exd 16:25
Moses said, "Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.

Exd 16:26
Six days you shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is a sabbath, there will be none."

Exd 16:27
On the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, and they found none.

Exd 16:28
And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws?

Exd 16:29
See! The LORD has given you the sabbath, therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days; remain every man of you in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

Exd 16:30
So the people rested on the seventh day.

Exd 16:31
Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Exd 16:32
And Moses said, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Let an omer of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread with which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.'"

Exd 16:33
And Moses said to Aaron, "Take a jar, and put an omer of manna in it, and place it before the LORD, to be kept throughout your generations."

Exd 16:34
As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the testimony, to be kept.

Exd 16:35
And the people of Israel ate the manna forty years, till they came to a habitable land; they ate the manna, till they came to the border of the land of Canaan.

Exd 16:36
(An omer is the tenth part of an ephah.)
 Quoting: Exodux 16 RSV


With this in mind there are some interesting things to point out. In the desert the manna from heaven left from the dew of the morning, and the quail around the camps at dusk, are not understood as being symbolic or allegorical. The Jewish people wandered for forty years as the Lord led them through the chastening of the desert, unto the promised land. This quail and manna is held by the Jewish people to be the miraculous sustenance from God which made the 40 year journey through the desert possible. It is not considered figurative manna.

However there is a deeper understanding to be gleaned from the nature of the manna in the desert. It was not allegorical 'manna from heaven', but literal, as it was physical sustenance, but not to be overlooked is the fact that the manna from heaven was spiritual sustenance, for it surely strengthened them in faith that His Word is faithful and true, and that there is nothing which is impossible for Him. It was also a lesson about the law, for they were told not to eat what was leftover(forming discipline and fidelity in them?), but those who did not obey the Law suffered the consequences, for the Manna spoiled quickly, and surely some got sick or died.(Each had their fill and still there was abundance)

Shifting focus back to the Bread of Life discourse notice how the multitude who were following Christ were following Him to witness one of the miraculous signs they had surely heard about, or had hoped to be healed of disease and ameliorated of suffering, but His Apostles and closest disciples followed Him because they had been called, and because they had been given the gift of faith, and they believed.

Next comes the miracle of the loaves and fishes, where 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish were generously offered, which He gave thanks for to His Heavenly Father, and blessed. The bread and fishes were handed out to the multitude of people who had gathered there around Christ, and all were fed, but the leftovers which were collected after all had their fill, was enough to fill twelve baskets! As real as the Exodus and miracles which accompanied the Divine and miraculous deliverance of the Jewish people from the bondage of sin through the desert, where they were purified and prepared, it is clear how it is also an allusion or foreshadowing of Christ; it is but of many examples of scripture and prophecy fulfilled in Christ.

This sort of miraculous fulfillment of scripture are signs. What do the signs say? That this Man before them(Christ Jesus) is the Messiah(savior) and King whose coming was foretold and promised in the Holy scriptures. After the people witnessed the miraculous things which He had done, their physical hunger was satisfied, but did they want more?

Jhn 6:14 When the people saw the sign which he had done, they said, "This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world!"
Jhn 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
 Quoting: John 6 RSV


Why did Christ retreat to a mountain when He perceived what was about to take place? Could it be because Christ had not come merely to satisfy the physical hunger and physical needs of mankind?

25 "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
 Quoting: Matthew 6 RSV


Didn't He come so that we could be made worthy of the promise of eternal life, and the ressurection from the dead-through Him, in Him, and with Him? Didn't Jesus take the consequence/punishment of the sins of the world so that we could have-not just life, but life abundantly? Jesus is the life, as life itself is in Him! With this in mind recall the issue at hand, of the matter and question of the true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and Sacramental Wine. There are many that react to this article of faith which we believe and hold dear, with well intended rebuke, and bold condemnation. And the reasons for this outcry from protestant brothers and sisters are understood, and because their grievances and charges often times overflow from ignorance, zeal, vigalence, Love, and an earnest and firm resolve to do what is good and pleasing to Him, and to reject that which is forbidden, false, from the devil, and sin, which are laudable and pure, and this is why I labor and strive to understand, so then to be better equipped to help others understand more fully. There are multiple lines of reasoning for objecting the idea of transubstantiation, or the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For the sake of brevity, and to better address the issue with the solmnity and sincerity which the issue is owed, let's consider them one at a time.

The first line of reasoning is that Christ was not being literal, but instead figurative, allegorical, or speaking in parabel, when He said

53"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;54he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.55For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------------------------------------------------​--------------------------------------------
my personal exposition of John 6

26Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.27Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


^^They want to make Christ King because He fed them, and satisfied their physical appetite, but Christ challenges them to seek after heavenly food(manna from heaven/bread of life which comes from God the Father(Jesus has come from the Father, for His will). This bread from heaven gives life to the world. Jesus is the bread of life.)

Some do not believe that He is the Bread of Life which comes down from Heaven, and gives life to the world-->[paraphrase]All that the Father gives me will come to me(the Bread of Life which comes downs from Heaven and gives Life to the world(not physical life, but eternal Life(divine spiritual life)/Gods will is that He should not lose any that He has been given, but raise them up on the last day.-->those with faith and who believe are drawn unto Christ by God the Father

-->the Jews murmured/complained(doubt) because they couldn't understand how He is the bread that comes down from Heaven/that God is His Father(a statement which many would understand as having certain implications)...they murmered and complained about the claim of Christ, that He is the bread of life from Heaven which gives eternal life, but also that He is somehow Divine, from God, and of God.



Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." /quote]
 Quoting: John 6


-->In response Christ again affirms that He is the bread of life. the Bread of Life is like the manna from Heaven-given to the Jews in the desert so that they might have life(physical & spiritual sustenance), but that manna from Heaven was not as good as the true bread from heaven for those who ate it still died, but if a man were to believe and eat this living bread they will live forever. What is this bread? For the third time Christ proclaims that the living bread of life which comes from Heaven, is His flesh.-->[/paraphrase]

This led the unbelieving Jews to argue amongst each other concerning "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?", but implicitly also "how is this man Divine?" which may have been as much a question of practicality & possibility(levying charges of heresy, idolatry, or blasphemy would have been inevitable; just consider "this he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um."), as it was a concern regarding the law (which forbade cannibalism), and also of idoloatry, blasphemy, and heresy, regarding His claims of Divinity in body, blood, and soul.The murmering and disputing amongst each other is clearly also foreshadowed by the grumblings and murmorings of the Jewish people in the desert in Exodus. It is a lack of faith.

To this murmering/disputing/arguing among themselves does Christ clarify His words, as He demonstrably does where He is clearly speaking in parables and one of the crowd misunderstands? No, instead Christ resolutely replies:

Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Jhn 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

In response to these murmerings regarding His bold claims, of His Divinity, and that He is the Living Bread from Heaven from the Father which gives eternal life, Christ further elaborates that not only is He the living Bread of life that comes down from Heaven, from the Father, and only by God is this possible, and that God the Father would also draw believers to come to Christ for Him to give them this bread of life, but also that the nature and substance of the living bread which gives eternal life is His flesh and blood, as He isLITERALLY the Bread of Life, and that we must eat His flesh, and drink His blood, for if we do not then we do not have life in us, but if we do then we have eternal life and share in the hope of the ressurection. He then reiterates the point and stresses it by adding that His flesh is true food, and His blood is true drink, and that if we eat His flesh and drink His blood we abide in Him, and Him in us, and will live because of Him.

If Christ were only speaking metaphorically, figuratively, or allegorically, then why did He reiterate numerous times(how many times?) "verily verily"/"truly truly", and when the idea caused dissonance, it is clear that it is because those murmering understood Him to be speaking literally, but they could neither understand or accept it for they did not believe His Divinity(that God is His Father, that God the Father sent and annointed Him as His dearly beloved Son, and acceptable and pleasing to Him, and therefore thought Christ to be either an idolatrous heretic and blasphemer, or delusional and mad. Furthermore their lack of faith is like the story of the deliverance of His chosen people from the bondage and sin of Egypt, and of the manna in the desert, where the Jews murmored and grumbled because they lacked the understanding which comes from faith, that with God all things are possible, as mysterious and impossible as they may seem to us mortals. Furthermore that the words and claims made by Christ in the Bread of Life discourse were intended to be understood as literal, is furthermore demonstrated by the firm & insistint words of Christ: that He is the Living Bread from God the Father, which gives eternal life because it is in fact His flesh and blood which allows us to abide in Him, and Him in us, His flesh and blood are true food and true drink.

Because it was intended to be understood as literal, albeit divinely mysterious as to how it is possible, or the reason for this particular means of receiving Him, it was understood as such by those in the crowd: consider how many among those who followed Christ across the Sea after witnessing the miracle of the loaves and fishes, which they literally witnessed(foreshadowing of the Lords supper & of the mass?), and that can be understood by the following, to :


Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
Jhn 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
 Quoting: John 6


Is Jesus literal when He says He is the Bread of Life? Yes, of course.
Is Christ being literal when He says He has come down from Heaven from the Father? Yes, of course.


Jhn 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
 Quoting: John 6


Is Christ being literal when He says "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh"? This is essentially the same question as above, which the Jews disputed amongst themselves.


Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Jhn 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

Many of His disciples had trouble accepting and believing these claims which Christ had made, so it is clear they took it literally. Again these are people who had been following Christ, and were on the path to faith and salvation through Him and in Him, which is to eat His flesh and drink His blood, but instead of correcting their misunderstanding of what He said, Christ asks them if they are offended by the nature and magnitude of His claims, and then He suggests that they would believe if they were to see a Mighty sign which was to come(His ascension/return to Heaven, from where He had come). And if they believed THEN they would accept these things.

60Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?62Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


It seems the problem of the troubled & murmering disciples is that they can not accept these claims because they can not understand how it could be possible, and that the root of the problem is a lack of faith/belief, that He is precisely Who He says He is, from God the Father, in God the Father, and of God the Father, for with God all things are possible, as was shown to them with the miracle of the loaves and fishes, which they witnessed, but also in the desert with manna from heaven, which they confessed belief in plainly. They did not believe in the Divinity of Christ(His Body, Blood, and Soul) and so it was impossible to understand or accept what He taught was possible, yet mysterious, for He is Who He says-the Son of God, and Divine- body, blood, and soul-from God the Father, or God the Father, and in God the Father, and God the Father in Him.


Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


The implication is that the words He proclaims give spirit and life, but that not all understand/accept these words, and that is because they lack faith/belief, and that faith/understanding is a gift which comes from God the Father in Christ Jesus. Perhaps the reason that faith/understanding had not been granted to some is because they hadn't asked? This lack of belief and understanding is also the reason that some of His disciples would abandon & betray Him. Because those that were troubled by what Christ has complained, and could neither understand or accept these things-"no longer went with him," which means they stopped following Him,

66After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


The reason that some left was because they didn't accept or understand the things that Christ said, or because they were troubled by them. The reason they didn't/couldn't accept or understand how Christ could be 'The Living Bread of Life', which is the Body and Blood of Christ which gives Eternal Life, is because they didn't believe/accept Christ as whom He claimed to be, for if they did they wouldn't need to understand how it is possible. 6:63-6:66 seems to exemplify what Christ mentions previously:

Jhn 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Jhn 6:30 So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform?
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
Jhn 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world."
Jhn 6:34 They said to him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
Jhn 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


If the ones who left are those who have no faith/belief, and so therefore can't understand or accept, so they will not heed the word of the Lord which is spirit and life, then they will not partake in the eating and drinking of the Body and Blood of Christ. The Word of the Lord is a dividing sword, being that those who murmered, were troubled, no longer went with him, left, and could not accept or understand these things because they lacked faith, which comes from God, then wouldn't it also imply that the disciples and Apostles who remained there believed and accepted the things which He said because they believed in Him, and in His words, which are spirit and life?

67Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


If the power of miraculous signs as indicators that something is of God and from God, and if its fruits are pure and accompanied with holiness, charity, and faith, then is it not at least deserving of a special sort of prayerful consideration and labor of discernment?

Consider some of these Eucharistic miracles if you are a true seeker of truth and wisdom: [link to www.therealpresence.org]






INTRODUCTION

Many Catholics and non-Catholics alike think that the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine presented on the altar at the Mass become the the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit at the consecration. The consecration is the time when the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood. However, the Body and Blood retain the appearance of bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church, that is, the Latin Rite Catholic Church, and other Catholic Churches in communion with Rome believe that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. The Orthodox Churches and most other Churches of the East do so as well. Anglican [Episcopalian] and other Protestant denominations have interpreted Christ's presence at the celebration of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist to be either only spiritual, or symbolic, or non-existent.

Thus, I decided to research what the Early Christians believed on this issue. I searched the indices for "Eucharist" in many volume sets on Early Christian writings, and I was astonished at my discovery. The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn't even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D. Following are the results of my search. Some Christians, e.g. St. Augustine, had very much to say about the Real Presence of Our Lord, so I did not include everything. Also, I want you to know that I did not include other Christians who believed in the Real Presence in this article because they later fell away from the Church for different reasons. Therefore, even though these Christians defended the Real Presence, e.g. Origen, Tertullian, Theodore of Mopsuetta, etc., I did not include their statements.

I pray that this research article will inspire lukewarm Catholics to become excited about their Faith which has faithfully been passed on for over 2000 years. I pray that the Holy Spirit will grant you Faith to believe in Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and to receive Him at Mass and visit Him in the tabernacle. He is patiently waiting for you because he loves you and wants you to come home.

Also, I pray that this research article will motivate non-Catholics to ask questions about the Blessed Sacrament to learn more. Our Lord is still with us in the flesh, and He is awesome! I pray that someday you will be able to experience the joy of receiving Him in the Mass and of praying at his feet.

THE BIBLE

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread."

-1 Cor. 10:16-17

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."

-1 Cor. 11:23-27

THE DIDACHE

The Didache or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date.

"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is sacred'".

-Ch. 9:5

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.'"

-Ch 14

ST. CLEMENT OF ROME

St. Clement was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.

"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."

Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH

St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR

St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]

ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely

Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. "For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA

St. Clement of Alexandria studied under Pantaenus. He later succeeded him as the director of the school of catechumens in Alexandria, Egypt around the year 200 A.D.,

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,
 Quoting: "Early Christians believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist" source: [link to www.therealpresence.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:18 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Well I quit wasting my time here.
Jesus Died for ALL of our Sins. We are ALL sinners,, If You Repent and Thank Jesus for Dying on the Cross for You and Believe with all Your Mind and Heart You go to Heaven.
Thats it no Religion.. Thats what I believe and I feel for those who think otherwise..
I know In my heart when I die or am Raptured I go to Heaven.
 Quoting: Mrgravyard


don't forget that we must worship Him in spirit, and in truth. Which Church is His Church should be your next question. A kingdom divided against itself can not stand.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 08:18 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
the last post is a bit speculative and is not without problems (primarily that the numeration of paragraphs and chapters is a later addition, yet I can't help but wonder if there is significance in it), but it is interesting nevertheless.

I figured I'd give you a hand, we have to stick together on this site. :-)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21008556


Thank you. The Hatred i have gotten is not surprising. I have only said Kind words in ALL my posts. And thats what i want to Spread. LOVE. Does Jesus really want 10,000 denominations? Or Just The ONE, HOLY, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24484272
United States
12/08/2012 08:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
I usually just point sincere people who are earnestly seeking answers to questions about the faith to www.forums.catholic.com.

They cover all the issues we have discussed today in depth, with power and simplicity.

Any pursuit of truth begins with an admission of ignorance. Seek and you will find, but when you seek, seek in earnest.
 Quoting: PEER 21008556


Great Website. It Really helps to put questions to rest about Catholicism. I found it a couple years ago
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 08:22 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
the last post is a bit speculative and is not without problems (primarily that the numeration of paragraphs and chapters is a later addition, yet I can't help but wonder if there is significance in it), but it is interesting nevertheless.

I figured I'd give you a hand, we have to stick together on this site. :-)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21008556


Thank you. The Hatred i have gotten is not surprising. I have only said Kind words in ALL my posts. And thats what i want to Spread. LOVE. Does Jesus really want 10,000 denominations? Or Just The ONE, HOLY, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24484272


Again

[quote 1 Corinthians 11:19]No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

A kingdom divided against itself can not stand. I think the divisions are the work of the adversaries.

There is nothing better to unite a people than a common enemy, and as pilgrims in this world we certainly have a common adversary. Let us then seek in earnest to amend these schisms and to live in love that His light will shine forth from us for the world to see.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24011342
United States
12/08/2012 11:18 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
On transubstantiation (originally posted as mrphilosophias)

The Catholic belief of the True presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is not amibuous, but indeed, by it is meant just that-His Holy Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, but under the appearance of bread and wine. The Holy Eucharist is the Pinnacle of the Catholic faith, it is a gracious, generous, loving, and miraculous sacramental gift from God(and to us), and sacrificial offering of the Holy Mass(from Him to us-from us to Him), in union with the prayers, hymns, and Worship, of the Holy Angels and Saints in Heaven, and the Church militant here on Earth. Here is a profound mystery we Catholic faithful hold dear: that the worshipful Celebration of the offering and Sacrifice of the Mass, which is the Perfect atoning sacrifice of the unblemished Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world, an offering which He has made for us and our behald for the praise and glory of His name, for our good, and for our salvation, it is verily the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is to participate in the celebration of Heaven here on Earth.

some resources if you are interested in at least understanding the perspective which us Catholics share, and hold dear:

[link to www.catholic.com]

[link to www.catholic.com]

[link to www.newadvent.org]

[link to www.scborromeo.org]


If you would like to rely of scripture alone(sola scriptura) as a means of gleaning and discerning matters of faith, salvation, and morals, then it may benefit you to ponder where in the world this Divinely inspired text came from, how it came to be, and by what authority. If you examined this issue than you would understand that the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament are articles which were transcribed and shared by, and amongst, the faithful in the early Church. The Apostles obviously had authority pertaining to matters of faith, salvation, morals, and dogma, and this is apparent throughout the epistles. The authority granted to Peter and to the Apostles is plainly apparent in the Gospels and epistles; this authority comes from Christ who is the Cornerstone, and with Peter as His Rock, and the Apostles, to minister to His people, to feed and tend to His flock, by the adminstering of the Holy Sacraments which Christ left for us, and to spread the Gospel throughout the world-baptizing in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

How many Churches can there possibly be which can say that they are Christs Church? Certainly in the beginning there must have been a common/shared faith with a standardized set of beliefs right? Can the Holy Spirit of God lead His people into contradictory truths? When you look at the sheer number of schisms which have multiplied, and divided His Church, especially since the protestant 'reformation'(which wasn't really "reformation" at all was it?), and you consider the spectrum of beliefs pertaining to critical issues of faith, morals, and salvation, then you must ask yourself the question: can they all be right? Can the body of Christ be divided? Which Church is the Church that Christ left for us? I've struggled with this issue of the True Presence prayerfully and sincerely, and it was a tumultuous time for me, but He has rewarded my faith for it, and placed me on a firm foundation. One great place to start is by reading the writings of the Fathers of the Early Church, and see what the Church of the first three centuries believed and practiced. Consider the words of the Nicean or apostles creed: "we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church". Which Church is the oldest Church is existence? Some Churches claim Luther, others calvin, but which Church has Christ as its founder? Is there apostolic succession and continuity through spiritual generation(laying on of hands) in one Church from then to now?

I have included some relevant excerpts from the Fathers of the Early Church specifically relating to what they wrote pertaining to matters of faith, salvation, and practice in regard to the Holy Eucharist. Seek and pray-trust in Him and lean not on your own understanding, then He will direct your paths, and you will find the truth, and the truth shall set you free!





Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Jhn 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Jhn 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
Jhn 6:59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um.
Jhn 6:60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"
Jhn 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Jhn 6:66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
Jhn 6:67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"
Jhn 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;
Jhn 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV
 Quoting: PEER 21008556


It is quite clear that Jesus meant what He said, if you just consider:

The Bread of Life discourse begins with the Passover, or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is a sacred commemoration of the divine intervention of the Lord God when He used Moses to deliver the Jewish people from the oppressive bondage and idolatry of the Egyptian Empire with Great Power & Miracles. The Jewish people were crushed in their slavery, but called upon the Lord God who they believed was greater than even the impressive Egyptian idols. The Lord despises idolatry, for their is no other God but Him. He heard the humble, sincere prayers of the Jewish people which were offered up in faith, and He looked upon them with mercy, compassion, and love, and He set Himself against the repulsive idols and false-gods of Pharaoh. The Honor & Glory belongs to Him. So the Lord delivered His chosen people out of the land of oppression and idolatry and did Great things for them. This historical story is one of the foundations of the faith of the Jewish people. It is detailed in the book of Exodus.

This celebration and commemoration of Passover would have been going on at the time this discourse is said to have taken place. The stories and ideas of the unleavened bread, and the Manna from Heaven as the Jewish people were chastened and refined by the fiery heat of the Desert, were certainly fresh on the minds of the Jewish people among the multitude, that were estimated to number about 5000.

Now consider the story of the Manna in the desert:

Exd 16:1
They set out from Elim, and all the congregation of the people of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had departed from the land of Egypt.

Exd 16:2
And the whole congregation of the people of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness,

Exd 16:3
and said to them, "Would that we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the fleshpots and ate bread to the full; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger."

Exd 16:4
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not.

Exd 16:5
On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily."

Exd 16:6
So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, "At evening you shall know that it was the LORD who brought you out of the land of Egypt,

Exd 16:7
and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your murmurings against the LORD. For what are we, that you murmur against us?"

Exd 16:8
And Moses said, "When the LORD gives you in the evening flesh to eat and in the morning bread to the full, because the LORD has heard your murmurings which you murmur against him--what are we? Your murmurings are not against us but against the LORD."

Exd 16:9
And Moses said to Aaron, "Say to the whole congregation of the people of Israel, 'Come near before the LORD, for he has heard your murmurings.'"

Exd 16:10
And as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the people of Israel, they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exd 16:11
And the LORD said to Moses,

Exd 16:12
"I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, 'At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"

Exd 16:13
In the evening quails came up and covered the camp; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp.

Exd 16:14
And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

Exd 16:15
When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.

Exd 16:16
This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of the persons whom each of you has in his tent.'"

Exd 16:17
And the people of Israel did so; they gathered, some more, some less.

Exd 16:18
But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.

Exd 16:19
And Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it till the morning."

Exd 16:20
But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it till the morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.

Exd 16:21
Morning by morning they gathered it, each as much as he could eat; but when the sun grew hot, it melted.

Exd 16:22
On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers apiece; and when all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

Exd 16:23
he said to them, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay by to be kept till the morning.'"

Exd 16:24
So they laid it by till the morning, as Moses bade them; and it did not become foul, and there were no worms in it.

Exd 16:25
Moses said, "Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.

Exd 16:26
Six days you shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is a sabbath, there will be none."

Exd 16:27
On the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, and they found none.

Exd 16:28
And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws?

Exd 16:29
See! The LORD has given you the sabbath, therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days; remain every man of you in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

Exd 16:30
So the people rested on the seventh day.

Exd 16:31
Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Exd 16:32
And Moses said, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Let an omer of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread with which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.'"

Exd 16:33
And Moses said to Aaron, "Take a jar, and put an omer of manna in it, and place it before the LORD, to be kept throughout your generations."

Exd 16:34
As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the testimony, to be kept.

Exd 16:35
And the people of Israel ate the manna forty years, till they came to a habitable land; they ate the manna, till they came to the border of the land of Canaan.

Exd 16:36
(An omer is the tenth part of an ephah.)
 Quoting: Exodux 16 RSV


With this in mind there are some interesting things to point out. In the desert the manna from heaven left from the dew of the morning, and the quail around the camps at dusk, are not understood as being symbolic or allegorical. The Jewish people wandered for forty years as the Lord led them through the chastening of the desert, unto the promised land. This quail and manna is held by the Jewish people to be the miraculous sustenance from God which made the 40 year journey through the desert possible. It is not considered figurative manna.

However there is a deeper understanding to be gleaned from the nature of the manna in the desert. It was not allegorical 'manna from heaven', but literal, as it was physical sustenance, but not to be overlooked is the fact that the manna from heaven was spiritual sustenance, for it surely strengthened them in faith that His Word is faithful and true, and that there is nothing which is impossible for Him. It was also a lesson about the law, for they were told not to eat what was leftover(forming discipline and fidelity in them?), but those who did not obey the Law suffered the consequences, for the Manna spoiled quickly, and surely some got sick or died.(Each had their fill and still there was abundance)

Shifting focus back to the Bread of Life discourse notice how the multitude who were following Christ were following Him to witness one of the miraculous signs they had surely heard about, or had hoped to be healed of disease and ameliorated of suffering, but His Apostles and closest disciples followed Him because they had been called, and because they had been given the gift of faith, and they believed.

Next comes the miracle of the loaves and fishes, where 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish were generously offered, which He gave thanks for to His Heavenly Father, and blessed. The bread and fishes were handed out to the multitude of people who had gathered there around Christ, and all were fed, but the leftovers which were collected after all had their fill, was enough to fill twelve baskets! As real as the Exodus and miracles which accompanied the Divine and miraculous deliverance of the Jewish people from the bondage of sin through the desert, where they were purified and prepared, it is clear how it is also an allusion or foreshadowing of Christ; it is but of many examples of scripture and prophecy fulfilled in Christ.

This sort of miraculous fulfillment of scripture are signs. What do the signs say? That this Man before them(Christ Jesus) is the Messiah(savior) and King whose coming was foretold and promised in the Holy scriptures. After the people witnessed the miraculous things which He had done, their physical hunger was satisfied, but did they want more?

Jhn 6:14 When the people saw the sign which he had done, they said, "This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world!"
Jhn 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
 Quoting: John 6 RSV


Why did Christ retreat to a mountain when He perceived what was about to take place? Could it be because Christ had not come merely to satisfy the physical hunger and physical needs of mankind?

25 "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
 Quoting: Matthew 6 RSV


Didn't He come so that we could be made worthy of the promise of eternal life, and the ressurection from the dead-through Him, in Him, and with Him? Didn't Jesus take the consequence/punishment of the sins of the world so that we could have-not just life, but life abundantly? Jesus is the life, as life itself is in Him! With this in mind recall the issue at hand, of the matter and question of the true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and Sacramental Wine. There are many that react to this article of faith which we believe and hold dear, with well intended rebuke, and bold condemnation. And the reasons for this outcry from protestant brothers and sisters are understood, and because their grievances and charges often times overflow from ignorance, zeal, vigalence, Love, and an earnest and firm resolve to do what is good and pleasing to Him, and to reject that which is forbidden, false, from the devil, and sin, which are laudable and pure, and this is why I labor and strive to understand, so then to be better equipped to help others understand more fully. There are multiple lines of reasoning for objecting the idea of transubstantiation, or the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For the sake of brevity, and to better address the issue with the solmnity and sincerity which the issue is owed, let's consider them one at a time.

The first line of reasoning is that Christ was not being literal, but instead figurative, allegorical, or speaking in parabel, when He said

53"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;54he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.55For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------------------------------------------------​--------------------------------------------
my personal exposition of John 6

26Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.27Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


^^They want to make Christ King because He fed them, and satisfied their physical appetite, but Christ challenges them to seek after heavenly food(manna from heaven/bread of life which comes from God the Father(Jesus has come from the Father, for His will). This bread from heaven gives life to the world. Jesus is the bread of life.)

Some do not believe that He is the Bread of Life which comes down from Heaven, and gives life to the world-->[paraphrase]All that the Father gives me will come to me(the Bread of Life which comes downs from Heaven and gives Life to the world(not physical life, but eternal Life(divine spiritual life)/Gods will is that He should not lose any that He has been given, but raise them up on the last day.-->those with faith and who believe are drawn unto Christ by God the Father

-->the Jews murmured/complained(doubt) because they couldn't understand how He is the bread that comes down from Heaven/that God is His Father(a statement which many would understand as having certain implications)...they murmered and complained about the claim of Christ, that He is the bread of life from Heaven which gives eternal life, but also that He is somehow Divine, from God, and of God.



Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." /quote]
 Quoting: John 6


-->In response Christ again affirms that He is the bread of life. the Bread of Life is like the manna from Heaven-given to the Jews in the desert so that they might have life(physical & spiritual sustenance), but that manna from Heaven was not as good as the true bread from heaven for those who ate it still died, but if a man were to believe and eat this living bread they will live forever. What is this bread? For the third time Christ proclaims that the living bread of life which comes from Heaven, is His flesh.-->[/paraphrase]

This led the unbelieving Jews to argue amongst each other concerning "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?", but implicitly also "how is this man Divine?" which may have been as much a question of practicality & possibility(levying charges of heresy, idolatry, or blasphemy would have been inevitable; just consider "this he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um."), as it was a concern regarding the law (which forbade cannibalism), and also of idoloatry, blasphemy, and heresy, regarding His claims of Divinity in body, blood, and soul.The murmering and disputing amongst each other is clearly also foreshadowed by the grumblings and murmorings of the Jewish people in the desert in Exodus. It is a lack of faith.

To this murmering/disputing/arguing among themselves does Christ clarify His words, as He demonstrably does where He is clearly speaking in parables and one of the crowd misunderstands? No, instead Christ resolutely replies:

Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Jhn 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

In response to these murmerings regarding His bold claims, of His Divinity, and that He is the Living Bread from Heaven from the Father which gives eternal life, Christ further elaborates that not only is He the living Bread of life that comes down from Heaven, from the Father, and only by God is this possible, and that God the Father would also draw believers to come to Christ for Him to give them this bread of life, but also that the nature and substance of the living bread which gives eternal life is His flesh and blood, as He isLITERALLY the Bread of Life, and that we must eat His flesh, and drink His blood, for if we do not then we do not have life in us, but if we do then we have eternal life and share in the hope of the ressurection. He then reiterates the point and stresses it by adding that His flesh is true food, and His blood is true drink, and that if we eat His flesh and drink His blood we abide in Him, and Him in us, and will live because of Him.

If Christ were only speaking metaphorically, figuratively, or allegorically, then why did He reiterate numerous times(how many times?) "verily verily"/"truly truly", and when the idea caused dissonance, it is clear that it is because those murmering understood Him to be speaking literally, but they could neither understand or accept it for they did not believe His Divinity(that God is His Father, that God the Father sent and annointed Him as His dearly beloved Son, and acceptable and pleasing to Him, and therefore thought Christ to be either an idolatrous heretic and blasphemer, or delusional and mad. Furthermore their lack of faith is like the story of the deliverance of His chosen people from the bondage and sin of Egypt, and of the manna in the desert, where the Jews murmored and grumbled because they lacked the understanding which comes from faith, that with God all things are possible, as mysterious and impossible as they may seem to us mortals. Furthermore that the words and claims made by Christ in the Bread of Life discourse were intended to be understood as literal, is furthermore demonstrated by the firm & insistint words of Christ: that He is the Living Bread from God the Father, which gives eternal life because it is in fact His flesh and blood which allows us to abide in Him, and Him in us, His flesh and blood are true food and true drink.

Because it was intended to be understood as literal, albeit divinely mysterious as to how it is possible, or the reason for this particular means of receiving Him, it was understood as such by those in the crowd: consider how many among those who followed Christ across the Sea after witnessing the miracle of the loaves and fishes, which they literally witnessed(foreshadowing of the Lords supper & of the mass?), and that can be understood by the following, to :


Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
Jhn 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
 Quoting: John 6


Is Jesus literal when He says He is the Bread of Life? Yes, of course.
Is Christ being literal when He says He has come down from Heaven from the Father? Yes, of course.


Jhn 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
 Quoting: John 6


Is Christ being literal when He says "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh"? This is essentially the same question as above, which the Jews disputed amongst themselves.


Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Jhn 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

Many of His disciples had trouble accepting and believing these claims which Christ had made, so it is clear they took it literally. Again these are people who had been following Christ, and were on the path to faith and salvation through Him and in Him, which is to eat His flesh and drink His blood, but instead of correcting their misunderstanding of what He said, Christ asks them if they are offended by the nature and magnitude of His claims, and then He suggests that they would believe if they were to see a Mighty sign which was to come(His ascension/return to Heaven, from where He had come). And if they believed THEN they would accept these things.

60Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?62Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


It seems the problem of the troubled & murmering disciples is that they can not accept these claims because they can not understand how it could be possible, and that the root of the problem is a lack of faith/belief, that He is precisely Who He says He is, from God the Father, in God the Father, and of God the Father, for with God all things are possible, as was shown to them with the miracle of the loaves and fishes, which they witnessed, but also in the desert with manna from heaven, which they confessed belief in plainly. They did not believe in the Divinity of Christ(His Body, Blood, and Soul) and so it was impossible to understand or accept what He taught was possible, yet mysterious, for He is Who He says-the Son of God, and Divine- body, blood, and soul-from God the Father, or God the Father, and in God the Father, and God the Father in Him.


Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


The implication is that the words He proclaims give spirit and life, but that not all understand/accept these words, and that is because they lack faith/belief, and that faith/understanding is a gift which comes from God the Father in Christ Jesus. Perhaps the reason that faith/understanding had not been granted to some is because they hadn't asked? This lack of belief and understanding is also the reason that some of His disciples would abandon & betray Him. Because those that were troubled by what Christ has complained, and could neither understand or accept these things-"no longer went with him," which means they stopped following Him,

66After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


The reason that some left was because they didn't accept or understand the things that Christ said, or because they were troubled by them. The reason they didn't/couldn't accept or understand how Christ could be 'The Living Bread of Life', which is the Body and Blood of Christ which gives Eternal Life, is because they didn't believe/accept Christ as whom He claimed to be, for if they did they wouldn't need to understand how it is possible. 6:63-6:66 seems to exemplify what Christ mentions previously:

Jhn 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Jhn 6:30 So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform?
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
Jhn 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world."
Jhn 6:34 They said to him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
Jhn 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


If the ones who left are those who have no faith/belief, and so therefore can't understand or accept, so they will not heed the word of the Lord which is spirit and life, then they will not partake in the eating and drinking of the Body and Blood of Christ. The Word of the Lord is a dividing sword, being that those who murmered, were troubled, no longer went with him, left, and could not accept or understand these things because they lacked faith, which comes from God, then wouldn't it also imply that the disciples and Apostles who remained there believed and accepted the things which He said because they believed in Him, and in His words, which are spirit and life?

67Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
 Quoting: John 6 -RSV


If the power of miraculous signs as indicators that something is of God and from God, and if its fruits are pure and accompanied with holiness, charity, and faith, then is it not at least deserving of a special sort of prayerful consideration and labor of discernment?

Consider some of these Eucharistic miracles if you are a true seeker of truth and wisdom: [link to www.therealpresence.org]






INTRODUCTION

Many Catholics and non-Catholics alike think that the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine presented on the altar at the Mass become the the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit at the consecration. The consecration is the time when the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood. However, the Body and Blood retain the appearance of bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church, that is, the Latin Rite Catholic Church, and other Catholic Churches in communion with Rome believe that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. The Orthodox Churches and most other Churches of the East do so as well. Anglican [Episcopalian] and other Protestant denominations have interpreted Christ's presence at the celebration of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist to be either only spiritual, or symbolic, or non-existent.

Thus, I decided to research what the Early Christians believed on this issue. I searched the indices for "Eucharist" in many volume sets on Early Christian writings, and I was astonished at my discovery. The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn't even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D. Following are the results of my search. Some Christians, e.g. St. Augustine, had very much to say about the Real Presence of Our Lord, so I did not include everything. Also, I want you to know that I did not include other Christians who believed in the Real Presence in this article because they later fell away from the Church for different reasons. Therefore, even though these Christians defended the Real Presence, e.g. Origen, Tertullian, Theodore of Mopsuetta, etc., I did not include their statements.

I pray that this research article will inspire lukewarm Catholics to become excited about their Faith which has faithfully been passed on for over 2000 years. I pray that the Holy Spirit will grant you Faith to believe in Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and to receive Him at Mass and visit Him in the tabernacle. He is patiently waiting for you because he loves you and wants you to come home.

Also, I pray that this research article will motivate non-Catholics to ask questions about the Blessed Sacrament to learn more. Our Lord is still with us in the flesh, and He is awesome! I pray that someday you will be able to experience the joy of receiving Him in the Mass and of praying at his feet.

THE BIBLE

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread."

-1 Cor. 10:16-17

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."

-1 Cor. 11:23-27

THE DIDACHE

The Didache or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date.

"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is sacred'".

-Ch. 9:5

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.'"

-Ch 14

ST. CLEMENT OF ROME

St. Clement was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.

"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."

Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH

St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR

St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]

ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely

Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. "For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA

St. Clement of Alexandria studied under Pantaenus. He later succeeded him as the director of the school of catechumens in Alexandria, Egypt around the year 200 A.D.,

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,
 Quoting: "Early Christians believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist" source: [link to www.therealpresence.org]



Your replies are generally stupid and insulting. You expect me to read all of the mostly nonsense that you post...all the while not reading what I have asked you to read. You apparently did not even read the first post in that thread, as shown that you did not answer the question posed in that first post of that thread.

Reliance on the early church fathers? Most of what you quoted makes no mention of eating actual flesh and drinking actual blood. Let us not forget that Judas Iscariot was amongst the twelve, so appeals to early groups also come into question. ...but...for the sake of destroying your argument that the early church fathers actually believed they were eating Jesus's flesh and drinking Jesus's blood...I'll give you a test...you see if you can pick out the true part of the Nicene Creed...is it A or is it B ...from below...

A.) ...under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died and most of Him was buried...

B.) ...under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died and was buried...

Please answer the question posed in that thread: What time frame does the flesh you claim to eat at communion come from?
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/08/2012 11:52 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
your replies are generally stupid and insulting. You expect me to read all of the mostly nonsense that you post...all the while not reading what I have asked you to read. You apparently did not even read the first post in that thread, as shown that you did not answer the question posed in that first post of that thread.

Again straw man attack. I'm stupid because you don't want to read what I've written in response to more than one challenge of the doctrine of transubstantiation. <tongueincheek>Makes alot of sense to me...</tongueincheek>

What have you asked me to read specifically? I must have missed this request. What thread/post are you referring to? A link or quote would be sufficient. I will read what you would like me to, but how is it relevant? I have offered positive arguments for the True Presence of the Paschal Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, in the Holy Eucharist, and that drawing from scripture and sacred tradition as passed down by the early Church Fathers this is the Orthodox faith which His Church has believed since the bread of life discourse & last supper.

Reliance on the early church fathers? Most of what you quoted makes no mention of eating actual flesh and drinking actual blood. Let us not forget that Judas Iscariot was amongst the twelve, so appeals to early groups also come into question. ...

Actually 10 of the quotes of early Church Fathers explicitly describe the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of our Lord. The remaining 4 or 5 imply the presence by warning against its reception by sinners, unbelievers, heretics, and the like. e.g. Why on Earth would we be afraid of eating bread and drinking wine if we are spiritually unclean?

Ass far as Judas is concerned I don't understand the relevance. Judas' betrayed the Lord and went out from the 12, which is why he was replaced by Matthias. Again the relevance is dubious.

but...for the sake of destroying your argument that the early church fathers actually believed they were eating Jesus's flesh and drinking Jesus's blood...I'll give you a test...you see if you can pick out the true part of the Nicene Creed...is it A or is it B ...from below...

A.) ...under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died and most of Him was buried...

B.) ...under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died and was buried...

Please answer the question posed in that thread: What time frame does the flesh you claim to eat at communion come from?

This is actually irrelevant to the matter at hand, and I've yet to see a valid challenge to any of what has been written. In any case let me share with you the entirety of the Nicene Creed:

&#928;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#8059;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#95​7; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7957;&#957;&#945; &#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957; &#928;&#945;&#964;&#8051;&#961;&#945; &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#954;&#961;&#8049;&#964;&#959;​&#961;&#945;
&#960;&#959;&#953;&#951;&#964;&#8052;&#957; &#959;&#8016;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#8166; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#947;&#8134;&#962; &#8001;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#8182;&#957; &#964;&#949; &#960;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7936;&#959;&#961;&#8049;&#964;&#969;&#957;&#903;
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7957;&#957;&#945; &#922;&#8059;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#7992;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#957; &#935;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#8056;&#957;
&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#965;&#7985;&#8056;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#924;&#959;&#957;&#959;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#8134;,
&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#7952;&#954; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#928;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#8056;&#962; &#947;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#951;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#945;​ &#960;&#961;&#8056; &#960;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#969;&#957;,
&#934;&#8182;&#962; &#7952;&#954; &#934;&#969;&#964;&#8057;&#962;,
&#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957; &#7936;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#953;&#957;&#8056;&#957; &#7952;&#954; &#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166; &#7936;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#8166;,
&#947;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#951;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#945;​ &#959;&#8016; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#951;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#945;,
&#8001;&#956;&#959;&#959;&#8059;&#963;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#964;&#8183; &#928;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#8055;,
&#948;&#953;' &#959;&#8023; &#964;&#8048; &#960;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#7952;&#947;&#8051;&#957;&#949;&#964;&#959;&#903;
&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#948;&#953;' &#7969;&#956;&#8118;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#7936;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#8061;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#948;&#953;&#8048; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#7969;&#956;&#949;&#964;&#8051;&#961;&#945;&#957; &#963;&#969;&#964;&#951;&#961;&#8055;&#945;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#955;&#952;&#8057;&#957;&#964;&#945;​ &#7952;&#954; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#959;&#8016;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#8182;&#957;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#963;&#945;&#961;&#954;&#969;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#945;​ &#7952;&#954; &#928;&#957;&#949;&#8059;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#7945;&#947;&#8055;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#924;&#945;&#961;&#8055;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#959;&#965;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7952;&#957;&#945;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#969;&#960;&#8053;&#963​;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#945;,
&#963;&#964;&#945;&#965;&#961;&#969;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;​&#945; &#964;&#949; &#8017;&#960;&#8050;&#961; &#7969;&#956;&#8182;&#957; &#7952;&#960;&#8054; &#928;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#8055;&#959;&#965; &#928;&#953;&#955;&#8049;&#964;&#959;&#965;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#960;&#945;&#952;&#8057;&#957;&#964;&#945;, &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#964;&#945;&#966;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#945;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#964;&#8135; &#964;&#961;&#8055;&#964;&#8131; &#7969;&#956;&#8051;&#961;&#8115; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#8048; &#964;&#8048;&#962; &#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#8048;&#962;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7936;&#957;&#949;&#955;&#952;&#8057;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#959;&#8016;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#8058;&#962;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#949;&#950;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;​&#957; &#7952;&#957; &#948;&#949;&#958;&#953;&#8119; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#928;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#8056;&#962;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#960;&#8049;&#955;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#961;&#967;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#956;&#949;&#964;&#8048; &#948;&#8057;&#958;&#951;&#962; &#954;&#961;&#8150;&#957;&#945;&#953; &#950;&#8182;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#957;&#949;&#954;&#961;&#959;&#8059;&#962;,
&#959;&#8023; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#8055;&#945;&#962; &#959;&#8016;&#954; &#7956;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#964;&#8051;&#955;&#959;&#962;&#903;
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#928;&#957;&#949;&#8166;&#956;&#945; &#964;&#8056; &#7949;&#947;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#964;&#8056; &#922;&#8059;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#918;&#969;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#953;&#8057;&#957;,
&#964;&#8056; &#7952;&#954; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#928;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#8056;&#962; &#7952;&#954;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#8057;&#956;&#949​;&#957;&#959;&#957;,
&#964;&#8056; &#963;&#8058;&#957; &#928;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#8054; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#933;&#7985;&#8183; &#963;&#965;&#956;&#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&​#959;&#8059;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#963;&#965;&#957;&#948;&#959;&#958;&#945;&#950;&#8057;&#956;​&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957;,
&#964;&#8056; &#955;&#945;&#955;&#8134;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#948;&#953;&#8048; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#966;&#951;&#964;&#8182;&#957;&#903;
&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#956;&#8055;&#945;&#957; &#7937;&#947;&#8055;&#945;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#954;&#8052;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#954;&#8052​;&#957; &#7952;&#954;&#954;&#955;&#951;&#963;&#8055;&#945;&#957;&#903​;
&#8001;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#959;&#8166;&#956;&#949​;&#957; &#7955;&#957; &#946;&#8049;&#960;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#945; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7940;&#966;&#949;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#7937;&#956;&#945;&#961;&#964;&#953;&#8182;&#957;&#903;
&#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#948;&#959;&#954;&#8182;&#956;&#949;​&#957; &#7936;&#957;&#8049;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#957;&#949;&#954;&#961;&#8182;&#957;,
&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#950;&#969;&#8052;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#956;&#8051;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#7984;&#8182;&#957;&#959;&#962;. &#7936;&#956;&#8053;&#957;.

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten not made,
of one substance with the Father,
through Whom all things came into existence,
Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down from the heavens,
and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became man,
and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried,

and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures
and ascended to heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father,
and will come again with glory to judge living and dead,
of Whose kingdom there will be no end;
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver,
Who proceeds from the Father,
Who with the Father and the Son is together worshipped and together glorified,
Who spoke through the prophets;
in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one baptism to the remission of sins;
we look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

Credimus in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipotentem,
factorem coeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium,
et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum,
Filium Dei unicum,
de Patre natum ante omnia saecula;
Deum verum de Deo vero;
natum, non factum;
ejusdemque substantiae qua Pater est;
per quem omnia facta sunt;
qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit,
incarnatus est de Spiritu sancto, in Maria virgine homo factus,
crucifixus pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, sepultus,
resurrexit tertia die,
ascendit ad coelos,
sedet ad dexteram Patris;
inde venturus est cum gloria judicare vivos ac mortuos,
cujus regni non erit finis.
Et in Spiritum sanctum, Dominum ac vivificatorem
a Patre procedentem,
qui cum Patre et Filio adoratur et glorificatur,
qui locutus est per Prophetas;
in unam catholicam atque apostolicam Ecclesiam.
Confitemur unum baptismum in remissionem peccatorum;
speramus resurrectionem mortuorum,
vitam futuri saeculi. Amen.
 Quoting: Nicene Creed source: [link to www.earlychurchtexts.com]
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/09/2012 12:02 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Please answer the question posed in that thread: What time frame does the flesh you claim to eat at communion come from?

I am not certain that i am qualified to answer this question with any authority as I am not a trained theologian. I would posit that you ask this at www.forums.catholic.com in the Ask an Apologist section, as they would be much better able to respond.

If I were pressed to answer this: at first I want to answer eternity, but I am not sure that such a simple explanation would suffice, for when He died at Golgotha for the sins of the world the effect rippled through space and time itself. Not to mention the higher realms of existence may not parallel our our experience which we perceive as space and time, which makes the question even more difficult to answer.

May I ask you what is the significance of this question? Does the reason for which you do not believe in the True presence hinge upon the answer to a seemingly peripheral question whose answer may very well be a mystery beyond our capacity to understand?

I would point you to Scott Hahns book "The Lambs Supper"

[link to www.amazon.com]


Bestselling author Scott Hahn sheds new light on the Mass, offering readers a deeper appreciation of the most familiar of Catholic rituals .

Of all things Catholic, there is nothing that is so familiar as the Mass. With its unchanging prayers, the Mass fits Catholics like their favorite clothes. Yet most Catholics sitting in the pews on Sundays fail to see the powerful supernatural drama that enfolds them. Pope John Paul II described the Mass as "Heaven on Earth," explaining that what "we celebrate on Earth is a mysterious participation in the heavenly liturgy."
The Lamb’s Supper reveals a long-lost secret of the Church: The early Christians' key to understanding the mysteries of the Mass was the New Testament Book of Revelation. With its bizarre imagery, its mystic visions of heaven, and its end-of-time prophecies, Revelation mirrors the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist.

Beautifully written, in clear direct language, bestselling Catholic author Scott Hahn's new book will help readers see the Mass with new eyes, pray the liturgy with a renewed heart, and enter into the Mass more fully, enthusiastically, intelligently, and powerfully than ever before.
PEER
User ID: 21008556
United States
12/09/2012 12:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
in response to misterg's challenge that the word catholic is not in the Bible I would respectfully disagree and point them to: [link to forums.catholic.com]
Lester
User ID: 29066040
United States
12/09/2012 12:29 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
When I gave my life Unto The Father, I had to tell HIM:

"I Know Jesus is our Saviour and Redeemer, and God The Son; but I don't really Know how HE fits into your plans... So, Father, I am giving my life into your care, Father, YahWeh, Elohim, Jehovah...."


Was raised and educated catholic, so had no clue as to what Jesus Gave HIS Life To Enable...

Yet, I had Loved Christ since a small child and Knew WHO HE IS. I made my surrender Unto The Father.

John 14:6 "....No man cometh Unto The Father But BY ME"..


Did not Know God's Plan, but HE Had Called my heart; so HE Accepted my surrender!


All the roman catholic verbage is simply rationalization for a cult-system of religion which actually DENIES Christ and The Father.


When The Father accepted the offering of my life, I was Born-Again.

Ezeiel 36 Witnesses the Born-Again Life and experience...
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

These 2 verses are the most succinct Witness in Scripture of What The Gospel Witnesses we may have...


A new heart Of God's Flesh to replace the stony/carnal heart we were all born with.
Our heart of God's Flesh Enables us to Know HIS Will, Do HIS Will, and live without sinning in Accord With HIM.


There is no religion that any Christian need follow.


St John Witnesses in First Epistle 2:18-27 the Born-Again Life as well. 18 & 19 explain why not all who claim HIM are able to live In HIS Accord. Verses 20-27 Witness that God Guides our lives while we live In HIM and we need no man to teach us of HIM; once Born-Again. I first read 1st John when I began to witness here in 2004. It was like reading a letter from an older brother...

18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.


22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.


27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


I live my life In Direct Conscious Contact With God.
For almost 29 years, HE Has Made my way everyday in every way. My reliance is Upon HIM...