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Message Subject I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question
Poster Handle PEER
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In response to the question about when/where does the Eucharist come from I offer my humble apologia:

first a primer



Article 7. Whether this change is wrought instantaneously?

Objection 1. It seems that this change is not wrought instantaneously, but successively. For in this change there is first the substance of bread, and afterwards the substance of Christ's body. Neither, then, is in the same instant, but in two instants. But there is a mid-time between every two instants. Therefore this change must take place according to the succession of time, which is between the last instant in which the bread is there, and the first instant in which the body of Christ is present.

Objection 2. Further, in every change something is "in becoming" and something is "in being." But these two things do not exist at the one time for, what is "in becoming," is not yet, whereas what is "in being," already is. Consequently, there is a before and an after in such change: and so necessarily the change cannot be instantaneous, but successive.

Objection 3. Further, Ambrose says (De Sacram. iv) that this sacrament "is made by the words of Christ." But Christ's words are pronounced successively. Therefore the change takes place successively.

On the contrary, This change is effected by a power which is infinite, to which it belongs to operate in an instant.

I answer that, A change may be instantaneous from a threefold reason. First on the part of the form, which is the terminus of the change. For, if it be a form that receives more and less, it is acquired by its subject successively, such as health; and therefore because a substantial form does not receive more and less, it follows that its introduction into matter is instantaneous.

Secondly on the part of the subject, which sometimes is prepared successively for receiving the form; thus water is heated successively. When, however, the subject itself is in the ultimate disposition for receiving the form, it receives it suddenly, as a transparent body is illuminated suddenly. Thirdly on the part of the agent, which possesses infinite power: wherefore it can instantly dispose the matter for the form. Thus it is written (Mark 7:34) that when Christ had said, "'Ephpheta,' which is 'Be thou opened,' immediately his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed."

For these three reasons this conversion is instantaneous. First, because the substance of Christ's body which is the term of this conversion, does not receive more or less. Secondly, because in this conversion there is no subject to be disposed successively. Thirdly, because it is effected by God's infinite power.

Reply to Objection 1. Some [Cf. Albert the Great, Sent. iv, D, 11; St. Bonaventure, Sent., iv, D, 11] do not grant simply that there is a mid-time between every two instants. For they say that this is true of two instants referring to the same movement, but not if they refer to different things. Hence between the instant that marks the close of rest, and another which marks the beginning of movement, there is no mid-time. But in this they are mistaken, because the unity of time and of instant, or even their plurality, is not taken according to movements of any sort, but according to the first movement of the heavens, which is the measure of all movement and rest.

Accordingly others grant this of the time which measures movement depending on the movement of the heavens. But there are some movements which are not dependent on the movement of the heavens, nor measured by it, as was said in I, 53, 3 concerning the movements of the angels. Hence between two instants responding to those movements there is no mid-time. But this is not to the point, because although the change in question has no relation of itself to the movement of the heavens, still it follows the pronouncing of the words, which (pronouncing) must necessarily be measured by the movement of the heavens. And therefore there must of necessity be a mid-time between every two signate instants in connection with that change.

Some say therefore that the instant in which the bread was last, and the instant in which the body of Christ is first, are indeed two in comparison with the things measured, but are one comparatively to the time measuring; as when two lines touch, there are two points on the part of the two lines, but one point on the part of the place containing them. But here there is no likeness, because instant and time is not the intrinsic measure of particular movements, as a line and point are of a body, but only the extrinsic measure, as place is to bodies.

Hence others say that it is the same instant in fact, but another according to reason. But according to this it would follow that things really opposite would exist together; for diversity of reason does not change a thing objectively.

And therefore it must be said that this change, as stated above, is wrought by Christ's words which are spoken by the priest, so that the last instant of pronouncing the words is the first instant in which Christ's body is in the sacrament; and that the substance of the bread is there during the whole preceding time. Of this time no instant is to be taken as proximately preceding the last one, because time is not made up of successive instants, as is proved in Phys. vi. And therefore a first instant can be assigned in which Christ's body is present; but a last instant cannot be assigned in which the substance of bread is there, but a last time can be assigned. And the same holds good in natural changes, as is evident from the Philosopher (Phys. viii).

Reply to Objection 2. In instantaneous changes a thing is "in becoming," and is "in being" simultaneously; just as becoming illuminated and to be actually illuminated are simultaneous: for in such, a thing is said to be "in being" according as it now is; but to be "in becoming," according as it was not before.

Reply to Objection 3. As stated above (ad 1), this change comes about in the last instant of the pronouncing of the words. for then the meaning of the words is finished, which meaning is efficacious in the forms of the sacraments. And therefore it does not follow that this change is successive.
 Quoting: source: [link to www.newadvent.org]


P1.God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
P2.To God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.
P3.Jesus is the One who Was, Is, and Is to Come.
P4.Jesus Christ is Immanuel, the Visible Image of the invisible God, the only begotten Son.
:. The transcendence of God the Son 'beyond' space/time can be deduced.

However God is understood to be omnipresent, or everywhere in other words, and so He is not limited to transcending space/time, but also intimately present in space and time.

P1.Time is a measurement of change.
P2.Change occurs over space and time.
P3.The transubstantiation of bread and wine to the Body and Blood of Jesus is a change which takes place.
:. Transubstantiation takes place in space and time, and not in space and time.

I can not say with any certainty that this is sound or valid teaching, but in my estimation it further accentuates the mystery of the miracle. Ultimately it is a matter of faith, which is suprarational and supranatural, but there is more than a sufficient reason[rational] to believe in light of the reasons which I have cited, and others which I have not.

In any case the questions which you pose are rather advanced theological topics and one can not even begin to tackle them without first giving serious consideration to more fundamental questions which beckon every soul: our purpose in life, our origins, is there more to life than what we can see, taste, touch, feel, does God exist and how can we know, what does it mean to know, is there a difference between knowing something to be true and believing it to be true, does faith conflict with reason, if God exists what is God like- how can we know, what does God like - how can we know, is God interested in mankind - how can we knw, do we have immortal souls, is there right and wrong -how can we know, why does evil exist, why do we do things which cause us guilt and shame, what is the solution to guilt and shame, has God revealed Himself to mankind in anyway (past, present, future), what of the various world religions which universally permeate space and time in attempt to answer these questions, why are we hardwired to ask these questions, what is the meaning of the question why, etc.

I think everyone asks these questions over the course of their lives, but how many REALLY seek the answer to these questions with sincere earnest? How many people seek the answer to these questions as if they were seeking for a most valuable treasure, gold, money, property, or prestige? Christ taught us that if we seek we will find, if we ask we will receive, if we knock the door will be opened to us. God is not afraid of your questions I assure you. Why should He fear the curiosity and rational which He saw fit to fill you with? In all honesty these gifts are given us to point to Him! This is what meant when the Psalmist says all creation bears witness to Him, and declare His glory and majesty.

I challenge you: Bring your questions before Him with a sincere and humble heart as if you really wanted to know the truth and I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

To be honest this is a conspiracy website - I wouldn't trust the message popular culture offers you - they have an agenda.
 
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