I am a catholic apologist... ask me a question

Article 7. Whether this change is wrought instantaneously?

Objection 1. It seems that this change is not wrought instantaneously, but successively. For in this change there is first the substance of bread, and afterwards the substance of Christ's body. Neither, then, is in the same instant, but in two instants. But there is a mid-time between every two instants. Therefore this change must take place according to the succession of time, which is between the last instant in which the bread is there, and the first instant in which the body of Christ is present.

Objection 2. Further, in every change something is "in becoming" and something is "in being." But these two things do not exist at the one time for, what is "in becoming," is not yet, whereas what is "in being," already is. Consequently, there is a before and an after in such change: and so necessarily the change cannot be instantaneous, but successive.

Objection 3. Further, Ambrose says (De Sacram. iv) that this sacrament "is made by the words of Christ." But Christ's words are pronounced successively. Therefore the change takes place successively.

On the contrary, This change is effected by a power which is infinite, to which it belongs to operate in an instant.

I answer that, A change may be instantaneous from a threefold reason. First on the part of the form, which is the terminus of the change. For, if it be a form that receives more and less, it is acquired by its subject successively, such as health; and therefore because a substantial form does not receive more and less, it follows that its introduction into matter is instantaneous.

Secondly on the part of the subject, which sometimes is prepared successively for receiving the form; thus water is heated successively. When, however, the subject itself is in the ultimate disposition for receiving the form, it receives it suddenly, as a transparent body is illuminated suddenly. Thirdly on the part of the agent, which possesses infinite power: wherefore it can instantly dispose the matter for the form. Thus it is written (Mark 7:34) that when Christ had said, "'Ephpheta,' which is 'Be thou opened,' immediately his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed."

For these three reasons this conversion is instantaneous. First, because the substance of Christ's body which is the term of this conversion, does not receive more or less. Secondly, because in this conversion there is no subject to be disposed successively. Thirdly, because it is effected by God's infinite power.

Reply to Objection 1. Some [Cf. Albert the Great, Sent. iv, D, 11; St. Bonaventure, Sent., iv, D, 11] do not grant simply that there is a mid-time between every two instants. For they say that this is true of two instants referring to the same movement, but not if they refer to different things. Hence between the instant that marks the close of rest, and another which marks the beginning of movement, there is no mid-time. But in this they are mistaken, because the unity of time and of instant, or even their plurality, is not taken according to movements of any sort, but according to the first movement of the heavens, which is the measure of all movement and rest.

Accordingly others grant this of the time which measures movement depending on the movement of the heavens. But there are some movements which are not dependent on the movement of the heavens, nor measured by it, as was said in I, 53, 3 concerning the movements of the angels. Hence between two instants responding to those movements there is no mid-time. But this is not to the point, because although the change in question has no relation of itself to the movement of the heavens, still it follows the pronouncing of the words, which (pronouncing) must necessarily be measured by the movement of the heavens. And therefore there must of necessity be a mid-time between every two signate instants in connection with that change.

Some say therefore that the instant in which the bread was last, and the instant in which the body of Christ is first, are indeed two in comparison with the things measured, but are one comparatively to the time measuring; as when two lines touch, there are two points on the part of the two lines, but one point on the part of the place containing them. But here there is no likeness, because instant and time is not the intrinsic measure of particular movements, as a line and point are of a body, but only the extrinsic measure, as place is to bodies.

Hence others say that it is the same instant in fact, but another according to reason. But according to this it would follow that things really opposite would exist together; for diversity of reason does not change a thing objectively.

And therefore it must be said that this change, as stated above, is wrought by Christ's words which are spoken by the priest, so that the last instant of pronouncing the words is the first instant in which Christ's body is in the sacrament; and that the substance of the bread is there during the whole preceding time. Of this time no instant is to be taken as proximately preceding the last one, because time is not made up of successive instants, as is proved in Phys. vi. And therefore a first instant can be assigned in which Christ's body is present; but a last instant cannot be assigned in which the substance of bread is there, but a last time can be assigned. And the same holds good in natural changes, as is evident from the Philosopher (Phys. viii).

Reply to Objection 2. In instantaneous changes a thing is "in becoming," and is "in being" simultaneously; just as becoming illuminated and to be actually illuminated are simultaneous: for in such, a thing is said to be "in being" according as it now is; but to be "in becoming," according as it was not before.

Reply to Objection 3. As stated above (ad 1), this change comes about in the last instant of the pronouncing of the words. for then the meaning of the words is finished, which meaning is efficacious in the forms of the sacraments. And therefore it does not follow that this change is successive.

When I gave my life Unto The Father, I had to tell HIM:

"I Know Jesus is our Saviour and Redeemer, and God The Son; but I don't really Know how HE fits into your plans... So, Father, I am giving my life into your care, Father, YahWeh, Elohim, Jehovah...."


Was raised and educated catholic, so had no clue as to what Jesus Gave HIS Life To Enable...

Yet, I had Loved Christ since a small child and Knew WHO HE IS. I made my surrender Unto The Father.

John 14:6 "....No man cometh Unto The Father But BY ME"..


Did not Know God's Plan, but HE Had Called my heart; so HE Accepted my surrender!


All the roman catholic verbage is simply rationalization for a cult-system of religion which actually DENIES Christ and The Father.


When The Father accepted the offering of my life, I was Born-Again.

Ezeiel 36 Witnesses the Born-Again Life and experience...
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

These 2 verses are the most succinct Witness in Scripture of What The Gospel Witnesses we may have...


A new heart Of God's Flesh to replace the stony/carnal heart we were all born with.
Our heart of God's Flesh Enables us to Know HIS Will, Do HIS Will, and live without sinning in Accord With HIM.


There is no religion that any Christian need follow.


St John Witnesses in First Epistle 2:18-27 the Born-Again Life as well. 18 & 19 explain why not all who claim HIM are able to live In HIS Accord. Verses 20-27 Witness that God Guides our lives while we live In HIM and we need no man to teach us of HIM; once Born-Again. I first read 1st John when I began to witness here in 2004. It was like reading a letter from an older brother...

18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.


22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.


27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


I live my life In Direct Conscious Contact With God.
For almost 29 years, HE Has Made my way everyday in every way. My reliance is Upon HIM...

These people actually PRAY to Mary. Who was just a woman. A good woman, but not "immaculate" and not without sin.

She is DEAD, and waiting in her grave for the resurrection.

You can rub your beads and pray to Mary until you are blue in the face, and she's NEVER going to hear you, let alone be able to "help you".

You suck at apologetics.

Thank God for Mary's intercecssory prayers, I fear that withour her pleading to Jesus the world would have already been purged.

Lester you didn't answer my question from the earlier post. Please seriously consider this in your heart, pray about it before God, and seek. Yes I have experienced the healing touch of God in my Heart, and many other miraculous and sublime things in my short time on Earth. You are right we must die to our sins, and be born in the Spirit, what you experienced is called a conversion experience in Catholocism. Praise be to God!

Just a thought Ive always had... All the people that cry about the Catholic Church being the harlot or beast. In the end, when what you guys call TSHTF( Armageddon ), just like jews have been killed, and native Americans, and alot of other races. Protestants and atheists will gladly kill Catholics first thinking they are saving the world. But in the End, we will be the martyrs in Christs name. I would Die for my Roman Catholic Faith

Fr. Martin Luther wrote that he would have reunioned with rome/rcc had they only acknowledged 1 of his 95 Theses...


Luther loved his church, thus he tried to reform it. There were 95 un-Godly practices afflicting catholicism as he saw it. Sale of indulgences, sale of all sorts of clergical services and courts run by the rcc.


What Luther could not abide was catholicisms rejection of The Gospel. Namely, the rcc's denial that God Want's To Know Us Personally and Directly and that Relationship with HIM Directly was The Witness of The Gospel....


Catholicism is a perversion of God's Word and because it is alienated from The Trinity, it is in service to God's enemy.



Note: I have never capitalized satan's name or any reference to him, likewise I never capitalize anything pertinent to the rcc.

St. John Witnesses concisely what I Know and Have Seen in my Born-Again Life, here:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

A global pin for Catholics!

Wake Up GLP. Catholicism will NEVER DIE... bump for suffering catholics in Middle East

The Holy Spirit doesnt dwell among lies, nor half truths, it dwells in truth only, and operates beyond knowledge.

The catholic church has been watched for long time, conclusions have been met in agreement in spirit of truth.
Witnesses have seen, words have been heared, what is going on backstage has been spotted.

Oh, and Mary, Is not our mother, shes a sister.
Jesus points out, look your mother, and look, your son when hanging on the cross, adressing his brother and mother.
She had favor, cause God Father choose her to give birth to The Word in flesh.

The catholic church, and most of its teachings rattle me, and disturbs my spirit. Before going in here, i had a shaking and coldness over me. And now this is done, im getting calm again.

Remember this, God's spirit is Holy! Truth doesnt mingle with lies. If you see Christ, and understand him, you will know all this. The Holy Spirit as Jesus promised, will guide you to all truth, there are other spirits guiding to lies and error.

Your church has stains on it.. and alot of herecy.
By The Holy Spirit i know truth.

PS : Nowhere in the bible does it say that the catholic church is the church of jesus, if it had been, it would never had made so many grave mistakes, its just not possible. And, for your notice, its not christianity either, but the first in Christ Jesus was called, "The Road"

Bye

And for all people suffering...

Just a thought Ive always had... All the people that cry about the Catholic Church being the harlot or beast. In the end, when what you guys call TSHTF( Armageddon ), just like jews have been killed, and native Americans, and alot of other races. Protestants and atheists will gladly kill Catholics first thinking they are saving the world. But in the End, we will be the martyrs in Christs name. I would Die for my Roman Catholic Faith

You lack Knowing...

Being Born-Again supersedes Faith and Belief. Once you KNOW The Father, and KNOW you have been Given A New Heart Of HIS Flesh, you have been Brought past anything of Faith; God Brings you Into KNOWING...


Soon, The Age Of Faith will end. God's Angel will Witness that HE IS Real and Christ Jesus Comes In Judgment and every living being will KNOW. This is The End Of The Age Of Faith. Revelation 14:7

Jesus Witnesses in Matthew 24:21-24 that in the Final Moments, all but the very elect will suffer deception. Not possible to deceive those who Abide With God.


There will be no more martyrs. Not those Guided By God. You say you're wiling to die for your Faith... Why not Trust God With your life and make your surrender?

Living For God is what every Born-Again chooses when they make their surrender. Acceptance of HIS Will, no matter what. Trusting HIM Totally and seeking only To Do HiS Will...

This is not "protestantism", It IS Christianity!
God's Banner To The World.
The Way Unto The Father...


God is not going to lose any of HIS Remnant to the enemy.
The Age of Faith ends before the abomination that maketh desolate is committed by the man-of-sin.

You have no witness for God, so HE Knows you not...
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Have you prophesied In HIS Name?
Cast out devils?
Done many wonderful works?

No, you haven't...

Jesus only Knows those Who Do The Will Of MY Father...

Most who Claim HIM, don't Know HIM.
Your giving your life is a matter of carnal self-will, not a matter of serving God's Will...

OP I applaud your efforts but cast not your pearls before swine, they will trample them, then turn and attack you.

AMEN. I want to spread LOVE. Peace

"By peace, he will destroy many" Daniel 8:25

You are the Catholic apologist...here is a question for you:

You say that you are literally eating the flesh of Jesus at the Roman Communion. What time frame did the flesh come from?

Here is the link to the full question...
Thread: The Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of transubstantiation is satanic.

As to "saints out the ying/yang"...

Unless they have been Born-Again, or were present in The Upper Room when The Holy Spirit was Sent By Christ Jesus, they mean nothing to God....



Canonization is a thing of religion, like all rcc dogma.

No Born-Again who can witness Ezekiel 36 would remain a catholic. Just like Martin Luther had to leave his beloved church.

If you are catholic, you put church before God.
Can't even keep The First Commandment...

the rcc is your god with a small g.
You choose its denials and apostasy rather than Trusting God.


I was completely blessed when God Delivered me from catholicism and all the other errors in my life...

Jesus will tell the OP (and you) that He never knew you.