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Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/12/2012 09:49 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I take it we are done discussing this then?
 Quoting: A_Historian


Not in the least. But let's not get started again on aerial photographs of Auschwitz. Your claim in the thread you started about Roosevelt's mistake that there are litterally tens of thousands of aerial pictures of Auschwitz was quite funny.

What I am really curious about is what, according to you, really did happen to all those Jewish people then.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


No I think we need to be specific about what the tern "holocaust" means, I mean originally it refered to all the peoples that perished.

So, As a starting point what do you think it means ?

Do you think 6 million j-ews were systematically led to gas chambers, killed, and then had their bodies cremated.
A_Historian

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12/12/2012 10:03 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I take it we are done discussing this then?
 Quoting: A_Historian


Not in the least. But let's not get started again on aerial photographs of Auschwitz. Your claim in the thread you started about Roosevelt's mistake that there are litterally tens of thousands of aerial pictures of Auschwitz was quite funny.

What I am really curious about is what, according to you, really did happen to all those Jewish people then.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


We can go on from here, but with respect to the photo issue in the thread you mentioned, here was my response where I admitted I may have been mistaken.

We can agree to disagree on the photo issue.
One thing I did not realize is that the cameras were triggered manually rather than as a projector type operation. There is no way for me to prove that thousands of pictures were taken but even the US National Archives
has more than thirty that have been declassified.

If the government admitted to have taken photos of Auschwitz earlier on then the whole issue of the rubber crisis and the fact that the photos show absolutely no indication of abuse or murder of the prisoners would surface.

Here are about ninety.
[link to arcweb.archives.gov]

Once on the results page click on the digital images link and they will show.

The key pictures for this discussion will have been taken of Birkenau during the summer of 1944. That was the time when the killing of the Hungarian Jews was alleged to have been at its high point.

However, looking at the images show nothing out of the ordinary, and the smoke you said you saw...
I'll leave that up to the readers to decide if they see it as well.


Here is a link to the thread itself.
I will leave it to the readers to determine the truth of the matter.
Thread: The Holocaust is the greatest conspiracy of the 20th Century......Nazi Death Marches.
A_Historian

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12/12/2012 10:05 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I take it we are done discussing this then?
 Quoting: A_Historian


Not in the least. But let's not get started again on aerial photographs of Auschwitz. Your claim in the thread you started about Roosevelt's mistake that there are litterally tens of thousands of aerial pictures of Auschwitz was quite funny.

What I am really curious about is what, according to you, really did happen to all those Jewish people then.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


We can begin by you telling us exactly how many Jewish people you are referring to, where they came from and what you used as a source for your number.
Anonymous Coward
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12/12/2012 10:12 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
Nah, they're just racist or deluded to other racist propaganda.
Dutch
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12/12/2012 10:16 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
"netherlands" has been owned here...back to the adl handbook on surpressing truth on the internet huh? "when defeated on point, try ad hominem attacks" lol!
why dont you listen to REAL jews talk about the halohoax - gilad atzmon norman finkelstein nathaniel kapner and the great earnest zundel who proved CONCLUSIVLY no gas no ovens (exept to cremate the already dead. yadda yadda yadda stop the propaganda and answer on point.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3693196


Baaaaaahhh

The day I will listen to a guy like Zundel, who claims that UFO's are Nazi secret weapons, launched from an underground base in Antarctica to conquer the world, will be the day I will have to be fed through a straw, and do not know my own name anymore. LOL

And what sort of expert is Gilad Atzmon, born in 1963 and musician from Ian Dury and the Blockheads, on the holocaust.

Normal Finkelstein, doesn't deny the holocaust, far from it, he thinks that the actual victims of the holocaust are entiteled to financial compensation from Germany. He's just of the opinion that people who were not in the camps or lost relatives, should not receive compensation. Something I do agree with.


And you lost me on that Greek guy.
Dutch
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12/12/2012 10:33 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I take it we are done discussing this then?
 Quoting: A_Historian


Not in the least. But let's not get started again on aerial photographs of Auschwitz. Your claim in the thread you started about Roosevelt's mistake that there are litterally tens of thousands of aerial pictures of Auschwitz was quite funny.

What I am really curious about is what, according to you, really did happen to all those Jewish people then.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


We can begin by you telling us exactly how many Jewish people you are referring to, where they came from and what you used as a source for your number.
 Quoting: A_Historian


No, YOU can. YOU do not accept the standard version of the Holocaust. As you said in your post earlier, YOU will clarify any aspect. And one of those aspects is in your own words "what really happened to the Jews" .

So let's begin with you telling us what really happened to them according to you, how many really were killed etc.

You always use the same trick, promising to give info, and then instead asking for the opinion and information from the other person. Really, that trick is getting quite boring now.
Dutch
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12/12/2012 12:58 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
To use the words someone else posted here earlier....

I take it we are done discussing this then?
A_Historian

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12/12/2012 02:30 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I take it we are done discussing this then?
 Quoting: A_Historian


Not in the least. But let's not get started again on aerial photographs of Auschwitz. Your claim in the thread you started about Roosevelt's mistake that there are litterally tens of thousands of aerial pictures of Auschwitz was quite funny.

What I am really curious about is what, according to you, really did happen to all those Jewish people then.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


We can begin by you telling us exactly how many Jewish people you are referring to, where they came from and what you used as a source for your number.
 Quoting: A_Historian


No, YOU can. YOU do not accept the standard version of the Holocaust. As you said in your post earlier, YOU will clarify any aspect. And one of those aspects is in your own words "what really happened to the Jews" .

So let's begin with you telling us what really happened to them according to you, how many really were killed etc.

You always use the same trick, promising to give info, and then instead asking for the opinion and information from the other person. Really, that trick is getting quite boring now.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275

I had to go out shopping but I am back.
So, now you want me to prove an event did not happen?

The standard version?
The one where evil Nazi's can magically cremate a body in 20 minutes when today it still takes over an hour?
No Dutch, it is up to you to prove that fantasy is real.

Start by refuting this.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Modern crematory fuels include oil, natural gas, propane, and, in some areas like Hong Kong, town gas. However, coal and coke were used until the early 1960s.

Modern cremators have adjustable-control systems that monitor the furnace during cremation. These systems automatically monitor the interior to tell when the cremation process is complete, after which the furnace automatically shuts down. The time required for cremation varies from body to body, and, in modern furnaces, the process may be as fast as one hour per 45 kg (100 lb) of body weight.

Once you can prove how the German's managed to pull that off we can go on to oh....gas chambers or something.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 27418740
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12/12/2012 03:06 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I take it we are done discussing this then?
 Quoting: A_Historian


Not in the least. But let's not get started again on aerial photographs of Auschwitz. Your claim in the thread you started about Roosevelt's mistake that there are litterally tens of thousands of aerial pictures of Auschwitz was quite funny.

What I am really curious about is what, according to you, really did happen to all those Jewish people then.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


We can begin by you telling us exactly how many Jewish people you are referring to, where they came from and what you used as a source for your number.
 Quoting: A_Historian


No, YOU can. YOU do not accept the standard version of the Holocaust. As you said in your post earlier, YOU will clarify any aspect. And one of those aspects is in your own words "what really happened to the Jews" .

So let's begin with you telling us what really happened to them according to you, how many really were killed etc.

You always use the same trick, promising to give info, and then instead asking for the opinion and information from the other person. Really, that trick is getting quite boring now.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


You're fucking ridiculous.

You can't pin crimes on people without physical proof.

Show me a document from the period, show me one of these so called mass graves.

You can't post "proof" from Jewish ran organizations and expect them to not be biased.Why the fuck would a J-ew tell the truth instead of just lying when lying will get him money and sympathy.

Holocaust deniers shouldn't have to prove it happened, you should, since J-ews are the ones who charged Germany with these crimes with zero proof.

But I guess if the victim is a J-ew proof isn't needed right?

Your excuse for Holocaust denial laws is total horseshit also. Are J-ews afraid that if they are caught lying about their genocide to extort Europeans they might actually be legitimately holocausted?
It's common knowledge why hate laws were passed in USSR occupied countries, to keep Europeans from criticizing the J-ews who ruled their governments and were openly genociding them.
Future Viewer

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12/12/2012 03:17 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
"netherlands" has been owned here...back to the adl handbook on surpressing truth on the internet huh? "when defeated on point, try ad hominem attacks" lol!
why dont you listen to REAL jews talk about the halohoax - gilad atzmon norman finkelstein nathaniel kapner and the great earnest zundel who proved CONCLUSIVLY no gas no ovens (exept to cremate the already dead. yadda yadda yadda stop the propaganda and answer on point.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3693196


Baaaaaahhh

The day I will listen to a guy like Zundel, who claims that UFO's are Nazi secret weapons, launched from an underground base in Antarctica to conquer the world, will be the day I will have to be fed through a straw, and do not know my own name anymore. LOL

And what sort of expert is Gilad Atzmon, born in 1963 and musician from Ian Dury and the Blockheads, on the holocaust.

Normal Finkelstein, doesn't deny the holocaust, far from it, he thinks that the actual victims of the holocaust are entiteled to financial compensation from Germany. He's just of the opinion that people who were not in the camps or lost relatives, should not receive compensation. Something I do agree with.


And you lost me on that Greek guy.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Speak to "Mrs. Gizella Weisshauss", (from Brooklyn, NY) who is the biggest Holocaust (Surviving) Funding Case. As I speak to her occasionally (on Telephone), she is about mid 80's and speaks harshly of Judge Edward Korman (of Eastern District Court, Brooklyn, NY) with the Swiss Holocaust Funding Case, and says without a doubt, Judge Edward Korman is crooked, liar and a fraud! with the Swiss Holocaust Funding...


bumpbumpbump
The Real "Kronos"..(1957 Movie)
Dutch
User ID: 27260028
Netherlands
12/12/2012 06:24 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
 Quoting: A_Historian

I had to go out shopping but I am back.
So, now you want me to prove an event did not happen?

The standard version?
The one where evil Nazi's can magically cremate a body in 20 minutes when today it still takes over an hour?
No Dutch, it is up to you to prove that fantasy is real.

Start by refuting this.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Modern crematory fuels include oil, natural gas, propane, and, in some areas like Hong Kong, town gas. However, coal and coke were used until the early 1960s.

Modern cremators have adjustable-control systems that monitor the furnace during cremation. These systems automatically monitor the interior to tell when the cremation process is complete, after which the furnace automatically shuts down. The time required for cremation varies from body to body, and, in modern furnaces, the process may be as fast as one hour per 45 kg (100 lb) of body weight.

Once you can prove how the German's managed to pull that off we can go on to oh....gas chambers or something.


Hahaha, this is like having a discussion with a 6 year old.
Read again. Nowhere in my earlier posts have I asked you for proof of an event that according to you didn't happen. Nowhere. All I have asked you is to tell us then what you do believe happened.

No proof needed for your theory for now. Just start by telling us what, as you so boldly stated earlier, really did happen (to the Jews). Then we can work from there.

Now, to refute your argument about the crematoria. Like so many revisionists you very cleverly use data from civilian now-a-day crematoria, which job is to cremate one body at a time IN A COFFIN, with industrial crematoria used by the Germans. This data cannot be used to compare.

Maybe you should read the work from Jean-Cloude Pressac. From Wiki:

Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps.

Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2]

Here is a link to the whole book for you to read. Especially interesting are all the original documents he found for orders of gas-thight doors, the number of times he found original documents with the word gaskammer in them etc.

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

Now I am off to bed, it's past midnight here. Looking forward to your answer, and finally your opinion on what really happened to the Jews. Were any of them killed according to you?
Thor's Hamster

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12/12/2012 06:33 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
Oh, I absolutely do not accept the standard version of the Holocaust. I don't understand why anyone would.

I will clarify any aspect of the Holocaust for you if you wish, but you must be specific in what you wish to learn about.

We could discuss the gas chamber myths, or the lack of credibility in survivor statements, or the fraud that was Nuremberg.

We could discuss aerial photography over Auschwitz, what really happened to the Jews of Europe, who actually started the war, or any number of issues on the topic.

So you see, unless you are specific, we would be going around in circles.
 Quoting: A_Historian



Your BS has been debunked on here many times over. You keep trying to make ww2 abour Jews and RACE when it was the Vatican and RELIGION as the Holocaust was far greater Jewish losses all across Russia and Europe, but also for the Protestants of the former Prussia and Orthodox of the former Yugoslavia.

The first act of ww2 was against the Protestants of Prussia in the 1932 coup, then into Prussian Poland as Germany and allied Russia divided the country and killed aprox 3 million Jews and 3 million Protestant Christians. Today Poland is totally Roman Catholic.
 Quoting: Klink 29692837


Klink! Long time, no see! :)
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
A_Historian

User ID: 29723936
United States
12/12/2012 08:27 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I had to go out shopping but I am back.
So, now you want me to prove an event did not happen?

The standard version?
The one where evil Nazi's can magically cremate a body in 20 minutes when today it still takes over an hour?
No Dutch, it is up to you to prove that fantasy is real.

Start by refuting this.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Modern crematory fuels include oil, natural gas, propane, and, in some areas like Hong Kong, town gas. However, coal and coke were used until the early 1960s.

Modern cremators have adjustable-control systems that monitor the furnace during cremation. These systems automatically monitor the interior to tell when the cremation process is complete, after which the furnace automatically shuts down. The time required for cremation varies from body to body, and, in modern furnaces, the process may be as fast as one hour per 45 kg (100 lb) of body weight.

Once you can prove how the German's managed to pull that off we can go on to oh....gas chambers or something.
 Quoting: A_Historian


Hahaha, this is like having a discussion with a 6 year old.
Read again. Nowhere in my earlier posts have I asked you for proof of an event that according to you didn't happen. Nowhere. All I have asked you is to tell us then what you do believe happened.

No proof needed for your theory for now. Just start by telling us what, as you so boldly stated earlier, really did happen (to the Jews). Then we can work from there.

Now, to refute your argument about the crematoria. Like so many revisionists you very cleverly use data from civilian now-a-day crematoria, which job is to cremate one body at a time IN A COFFIN, with industrial crematoria used by the Germans. This data cannot be used to compare.

Maybe you should read the work from Jean-Cloude Pressac. From Wiki:

Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps.

Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2]

Here is a link to the whole book for you to read. Especially interesting are all the original documents he found for orders of gas-thight doors, the number of times he found original documents with the word gaskammer in them etc.

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

Now I am off to bed, it's past midnight here. Looking forward to your answer, and finally your opinion on what really happened to the Jews. Were any of them killed according to you?
 Quoting: Dutch 27260028

Pressac was a pharmacist who was hired by the Klarsfeld Foundation to do what was termed the definitive study of Auschwitz. Why they chose him is beyond me as he had no special training in the area of forensics or even history. His work contained many conclusions that did not support the mainstream court historians position so consequently
his work is not cited as fact anymore.

Everything you could possibly want to know about the imaginary gas chambers of Auschwitz can be found on Fritz Berg's website. It is one of his unique areas of study. [link to www.nazigassings.com]

As far as the cremations go.
Are you really claiming that 70 year old coke fired ovens can cremate a body faster than modern computer controlled gas fired incinerator type crematory ovens?
Really?
Not only faster but in 1/3 of the time?
Did they even have blower motors?

Now as to where the Jews went. I think all can agree that Germany wanted them out and had worked toward that end all the way back to the Haavara Transfer agreement and the Rublee Wohlthat Agreement.

When the Germans and Soviets co-occupied Poland the majority of the remaining Jews migrated to the Soviet sphere of influence via an open border policy with Germany. Some joined the Red Army, others assimilating into Soviet daily life and still others into the Gulag system.

When the German Soviet agreement ended, Jews could no longer cross back into the German side. Therefore statistically, they were gone and the easiest way to account for them is to claim the Germans killed them rather than their having become ultimate prisoners of the USSR.

Last Edited by A_Historian on 12/13/2012 07:47 AM
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 08:31 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
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Dutch
User ID: 1568275
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12/13/2012 08:55 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I had to go out shopping but I am back.
So, now you want me to prove an event did not happen?

The standard version?
The one where evil Nazi's can magically cremate a body in 20 minutes when today it still takes over an hour?
No Dutch, it is up to you to prove that fantasy is real.

Start by refuting this.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Modern crematory fuels include oil, natural gas, propane, and, in some areas like Hong Kong, town gas. However, coal and coke were used until the early 1960s.

Modern cremators have adjustable-control systems that monitor the furnace during cremation. These systems automatically monitor the interior to tell when the cremation process is complete, after which the furnace automatically shuts down. The time required for cremation varies from body to body, and, in modern furnaces, the process may be as fast as one hour per 45 kg (100 lb) of body weight.

Once you can prove how the German's managed to pull that off we can go on to oh....gas chambers or something.
 Quoting: A_Historian


Hahaha, this is like having a discussion with a 6 year old.
Read again. Nowhere in my earlier posts have I asked you for proof of an event that according to you didn't happen. Nowhere. All I have asked you is to tell us then what you do believe happened.

No proof needed for your theory for now. Just start by telling us what, as you so boldly stated earlier, really did happen (to the Jews). Then we can work from there.

Now, to refute your argument about the crematoria. Like so many revisionists you very cleverly use data from civilian now-a-day crematoria, which job is to cremate one body at a time IN A COFFIN, with industrial crematoria used by the Germans. This data cannot be used to compare.

Maybe you should read the work from Jean-Cloude Pressac. From Wiki:

Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps.

Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2]

Here is a link to the whole book for you to read. Especially interesting are all the original documents he found for orders of gas-thight doors, the number of times he found original documents with the word gaskammer in them etc.

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

Now I am off to bed, it's past midnight here. Looking forward to your answer, and finally your opinion on what really happened to the Jews. Were any of them killed according to you?
 Quoting: Dutch 27260028

Pressac was a pharmacist who was hired by the Klarsfeld Foundation to do what was termed the definitive study of Auschwitz. Why they chose him is beyond me as he had no special training in the area of forensics or even history. His work contained many conclusions that did not support the mainstream court historians position so consequently
his work is not cited as fact anymore.

Everything you could possibly want to know about the imaginary gas chambers of Auschwitz can be found on Fritz Berg's website. It is one of his unique areas of study. [link to www.nazigassings.com]

As far as the cremations go.
Are you really claiming that 70 year old coke fired ovens can cremate a body faster than modern computer controlled gas fired incinerator type crematory ovens?
Really?
Not only faster but in 1/3 of the time?
Did they even have blower motors?

Now as to where the Jews went. I think all can agree that Germany wanted them out and had worked toward that end all the way back to the Haavara Transfer agreement and the Rublee Wohlthat Agreement.

When the Germans and Soviets co-occupied Poland the majority of the remaining Jews migrated to the Soviet sphere of influence via an open border policy with Germany. Some joined the Red Army, others assimilating into Soviet daily life and still others into the Gulag system.

When the German Soviet agreement ended, Jews could no longer cross back into the German side. Therefore statistically, they were gone and the easiest way to account for them is to claim the Germans killed them rather than their having become ultimate prisoners of the USSR.
 Quoting: A_Historian



If you read the reports of experts on the German crematoria ovens, you can see that - apart from being industrial ovens instead of civilian every day ovens - you would know the following.

First of all, to start the oven, and the first body / bodies, would indeed take longer. But the thing about continiously using the ovens, the heath from the previous cremated bodies, would accelerate the process, and demanding less and less fuel to keep the ovens going.
Contrary to now a day ovens, where an oven is used to cremate 1 body at a time, the Germans used to cremate several bodies at the same time. So that also explains why on they could dispose of more bodies in the same time compared to the normal crematoria.
And finally you'll find that the Germans, unlike the rules in normal crematoria, wouldn't wait untill the whole body was completely cremated before putting the next body in, again speeding up the process.

Attached a link to an official war time document from Topf and sons, the company who made the ovens, about their capacity.

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

And regarding your answer to where the Jews went...for An Historian you would be better off studying again if that is your explanation.

The first mass deportations from Jews from Germany and the occupied countries didn't start till the end of 1941. Well recorded, not only by the Germans, but also by the occupied countries. By which time the Germans had already invaded the Soviet Union, thus making migration to the Soviet Union impossible.
A_Historian

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12/13/2012 10:53 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
I had to go out shopping but I am back.
So, now you want me to prove an event did not happen?

The standard version?
The one where evil Nazi's can magically cremate a body in 20 minutes when today it still takes over an hour?
No Dutch, it is up to you to prove that fantasy is real.

Start by refuting this.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Modern crematory fuels include oil, natural gas, propane, and, in some areas like Hong Kong, town gas. However, coal and coke were used until the early 1960s.

Modern cremators have adjustable-control systems that monitor the furnace during cremation. These systems automatically monitor the interior to tell when the cremation process is complete, after which the furnace automatically shuts down. The time required for cremation varies from body to body, and, in modern furnaces, the process may be as fast as one hour per 45 kg (100 lb) of body weight.

Once you can prove how the German's managed to pull that off we can go on to oh....gas chambers or something.
 Quoting: A_Historian


Hahaha, this is like having a discussion with a 6 year old.
Read again. Nowhere in my earlier posts have I asked you for proof of an event that according to you didn't happen. Nowhere. All I have asked you is to tell us then what you do believe happened.

No proof needed for your theory for now. Just start by telling us what, as you so boldly stated earlier, really did happen (to the Jews). Then we can work from there.

Now, to refute your argument about the crematoria. Like so many revisionists you very cleverly use data from civilian now-a-day crematoria, which job is to cremate one body at a time IN A COFFIN, with industrial crematoria used by the Germans. This data cannot be used to compare.

Maybe you should read the work from Jean-Cloude Pressac. From Wiki:

Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps.

Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2]

Here is a link to the whole book for you to read. Especially interesting are all the original documents he found for orders of gas-thight doors, the number of times he found original documents with the word gaskammer in them etc.

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

Now I am off to bed, it's past midnight here. Looking forward to your answer, and finally your opinion on what really happened to the Jews. Were any of them killed according to you?
 Quoting: Dutch 27260028

Pressac was a pharmacist who was hired by the Klarsfeld Foundation to do what was termed the definitive study of Auschwitz. Why they chose him is beyond me as he had no special training in the area of forensics or even history. His work contained many conclusions that did not support the mainstream court historians position so consequently
his work is not cited as fact anymore.

Everything you could possibly want to know about the imaginary gas chambers of Auschwitz can be found on Fritz Berg's website. It is one of his unique areas of study. [link to www.nazigassings.com]

As far as the cremations go.
Are you really claiming that 70 year old coke fired ovens can cremate a body faster than modern computer controlled gas fired incinerator type crematory ovens?
Really?
Not only faster but in 1/3 of the time?
Did they even have blower motors?

Now as to where the Jews went. I think all can agree that Germany wanted them out and had worked toward that end all the way back to the Haavara Transfer agreement and the Rublee Wohlthat Agreement.

When the Germans and Soviets co-occupied Poland the majority of the remaining Jews migrated to the Soviet sphere of influence via an open border policy with Germany. Some joined the Red Army, others assimilating into Soviet daily life and still others into the Gulag system.

When the German Soviet agreement ended, Jews could no longer cross back into the German side. Therefore statistically, they were gone and the easiest way to account for them is to claim the Germans killed them rather than their having become ultimate prisoners of the USSR.
 Quoting: A_Historian



If you read the reports of experts on the German crematoria ovens, you can see that - apart from being industrial ovens instead of civilian every day ovens - you would know the following.

First of all, to start the oven, and the first body / bodies, would indeed take longer. But the thing about continiously using the ovens, the heath from the previous cremated bodies, would accelerate the process, and demanding less and less fuel to keep the ovens going.
Contrary to now a day ovens, where an oven is used to cremate 1 body at a time, the Germans used to cremate several bodies at the same time. So that also explains why on they could dispose of more bodies in the same time compared to the normal crematoria.
And finally you'll find that the Germans, unlike the rules in normal crematoria, wouldn't wait untill the whole body was completely cremated before putting the next body in, again speeding up the process.

Attached a link to an official war time document from Topf and sons, the company who made the ovens, about their capacity.

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

[link to www.holocaust-history.org]

And regarding your answer to where the Jews went...for An Historian you would be better off studying again if that is your explanation.

The first mass deportations from Jews from Germany and the occupied countries didn't start till the end of 1941. Well recorded, not only by the Germans, but also by the occupied countries. By which time the Germans had already invaded the Soviet Union, thus making migration to the Soviet Union impossible.
 Quoting: Dutch 1568275


The cremation ovens at Auschwitz were typical crematory ovens. My comment about bakery ovens was merely to indicate that they are of the same basic style. As far as operation…they were designed to cremate a body not in a coffin, which would be inserted onto a kind of grille and be reduced to ash and bone by indirect superheated air created in another part of the oven. These bodies were not cremated by incineration such as some today’s modern systems as shown here.
[link to www.deep-six.com]

So the claim by some holocaust supporters that fat generated by the bodies’ acts as fuel to further burn new bodies is wrong as it is impossible for the fat to reach the flames.

True, there were probably attempts to put multiple bodies into each muffle - perhaps two or three at a time, in no case would the dimensions of these particular muffles allow for more. But if it takes X amount of time to burn one body, it will take 3X the amount to burn three. If it takes 30 minutes to reduce a body to ash and bone, 30 minutes with three bodies will not produce three groups of ash and bone.

True also is the fact that while the fat from burning bodies will allow the middle stage of cremation to proceed more or less on its own. It will not assist the end. High heat is required at the beginning of the cremation cycle, to ignite, and at the end, to reduce the remainder of the body proteins (minus the burnt off fat) to ash.

According to a study done by the Cremation Society of Great Britain, Cremations take longer than incineration. Their data states that it takes 40 minutes to reduce a body to bone, and another 20-30 minutes to reduce the bone to ash.

What also needs to be taken into account is the massive piles of coke that would need to be on hand to continue the so-called constant burning of Jews. In the other thread I created regarding the Nazi death marches, there is a link to over ninety images of the Auschwitz camps. Nowhere in any of those images do we see any large stockpiles of coke or coal that would have been needed to keep the flames belching continually.

Here for example is an aerial image taken in August 1944 which would have been at the height of the gassing and cremation of the Hungarian Jews that began arriving in May, 1944.
[link to www.globalsecurity.org]

Do you see anything out of the ordinary?
Lines of prisoners headed to the gas chambers or massive piles of coke?

Now let’s address your statements regarding Jewish losses.

Here is your reply to my post:

And regarding your answer to where the Jews went...for An Historian you would be better off studying again if that is your explanation.

The first mass deportations from Jews from Germany and the occupied countries didn't start till the end of 1941. Well recorded, not only by the Germans, but also by the occupied countries. By which time the Germans had already invaded the Soviet Union, thus making migration to the Soviet Union impossible.


I see what ya’ did there and I am sure the readers did as well.

You are either unaware of or chose to forget all the efforts that the Germans made to help resettle the Jews as early as 1933.

For the best reading on that particular topic I would suggest both you and the casual observer read Ingrid Weckert’s “Jewish Emigration From the Third Reich which is available online here.
[link to www.scribd.com]

As far as where the Jews who migrated into Poland ultimately ended up I offer this paper by Prof. Tomasz Strzembosz, Polish historian and Professor of the Catholic University of Lublin and the Institute of Pblitical Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN). Author of many publications regarding Polish and Soviet relations.
[link to www.antyk.org.pl]

Brief quotes from his work…

TREASON IN THE DAYS OF DEFEAT

The Polish population, apart from a small group of city communists and an even smaller one of village communists, received the Soviet aggression and the system brought by it in the same way as they had received the German invasion. This is confirmed by literally thousands of various testimonies. The participation of Polish peasants in the so-called selsoviets (village councils) does not mean anything, because these were purely "decorative" bodies. The real power rested with the executive committees, and especially with their supervisory party and police apparatus.

On the other hand, the Jewish population, and especially Jewish youths and the city poor, participated en masse in giving welcome to the invading army and in introducing the new order, also by violent means. This is confirmed as well by thousands of Polish, Jewish and Soviet testimonies; there are official reports of the C-in-C of the Association for Armed Struggle [ZWZ, later the Home Army],General Stefan Grot-Rowecki, there is the [famous] report of the emissary Jan Karski, there are accounts written during and after the war. After all, even the [earlier] works of Jan T Gross speak about these facts; Gross based his clear and undisputable conclusions on the materials preserved in the Hoover Institution in the States.
The Soviet Army was welcomed with enthusiasm not only in the territories occupied formerly by the Wehrmacht, but also in the Eastern Borderlands, where the Germans never arrived. What's more, those "guards" and "militias", growing like mushrooms right after the Soviet aggression, consisted in the main part of Jews, And not only that. Jews undertook acts of rebellion against the Polish state by taking over towns, organizing there revolutionary committees, arresting and executing the representatives of the Polish state authority and attacking smaller or, sometimes, quite large (like in Grodno) units of the Polish Army.

And here is a quote from War History Online
[link to www.warhistoryonline.com]

Jews who found themselves behind the Iron Curtain, especially in Russia, now found themselves under a completely different type of oppression – an oppression in many ways as dark as German oppression. To Stalin anyone who had contact with the virus called “the West” was sent to Siberia. Even Russian soldiers who fought for Mother Russia, but had the misfortune of being captured by the Germans – and who somehow survived that misfortune (only 20-40% of Russian prisoners survived; 3.3 million died) — were sent to Siberia by Stalin.

Last Edited by A_Historian on 12/13/2012 05:13 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 11:12 AM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
The word deny or deniers is wrong because it implies that something really happened.
gimmethelist
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12/13/2012 12:42 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
The word deny or deniers is wrong because it implies that something really happened.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27577634


Just have to bite! - what with being goy and drunk and such...
Reading and comprehension!!!
Dumbass...


[link to dictionary.reference.com]


Hey stupid-zionist-indoctrinated-non historian-opinionated-baseless-claim fuckstick-completely-worthless-human... (N.B. - ad hominem)

Please supply the link to the definitive [LIST - OF - REGISTERED - JEWISH - IDENTITIES] of the "HOLOCAUST" (read as "sacrificial offering")


I have been looking for this for a while now.
Apparently it does not exist.
But I'm sure your (read as "you'er" - because I am just a stupid retard) familiar with where this crucial list abides.
Oh, and don't forget to threaten to report me to the authorities.
- That will substantially alter the propaganda effect obviously.

REALLY! - This post is such a crock of shit! - but you know that already.

Add me to the list. - I'm already on it I'm sure...
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 12:58 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
The word deny or deniers is wrong because it implies that something really happened.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27577634


lol...true

clappa


If I must used the phrase "denier" in the matter, I prefer to say that I'm a HolyHOAX denier
dont forget....
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12/13/2012 01:00 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
what about the 40 million russians that were killed?

did they get their own country out of that?

or the special treatment?

how about a russian holocaust memorial????
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 01:02 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
what about the 40 million russians that were killed?

did they get their own country out of that?

or the special treatment?

how about a russian holocaust memorial????
 Quoting: dont forget.... 1127694


Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan.
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 01:03 PM
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WHY DO PEOPLE QUOTE QUOTES????????

How about just hilighting and copying a small portion instead of being LAZY and hitting the quote button each time?

You know how much wasted bandwidth you lazy dolts use up when theres a reply with 27 quotes in it??????

Stop it with the laziness, dammit
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 01:05 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
After how long, Sheldon?

And wheres their national memorial?

And all the things that go along with it?

Like an anti russian defamation league?

Or Memorials?

Hmmmmm???
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 01:05 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
The only real holocaust was the death of over 270 Million human beings on account of War in the 20th Century.

A measely 1.6 Million so called juews is like 00.5% of the people Holocausted in the 20th Century.


Who cries for the other 99.5% of those dead?

Put the so called 'holocaust' in its proper historic setting for a change.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


clappa

They've been probably more Gipsies died in concentration camps but they never got their state for example.
How's that possible drevil
A_Historian

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what about the 40 million russians that were killed?

did they get their own country out of that?

or the special treatment?

how about a russian holocaust memorial????
 Quoting: dont forget.... 1127694


Berlin is full of them.
Dutch
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12/13/2012 06:01 PM
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...


Hahaha, better to stick even to historie, because you have even worse knowledge of physics.

"But if it takes X amount of time to burn one body, it will take 3X the amount to burn three"

So, if it takes 6 minutes to boil one egg the way I like them, it will take 18 minutes to boil 3 eggs when putting them together in 1 pan?

Now, regarding your statement that there were probably some "experiments" with putting more bodies in one oven "muffle" as they were called....this was standard practise, as admitted by plenty of nazi's, and testified by sondercommando's. See, the oven muffle's were build take up to 100kg of "body weight" to be incinerated. Now think that amongst the victims were lot's of woman and small children, and think of the state a lot of the starved victims would be in, and it would be easy to burn 2 or even 3 bodies in one oven muffle, just as long at the weight would be the same of one 100kg person nowadays.

Re the use of coke. Also with cremation on a continues scale, there is an increase in economies of scale. Where it will take x amount of coke to start up the ovens to incinerate one body, it will take far less to incinerate the next, and even less the ones after that. Even starting up the ovens the next day again, will take far less.
You revisionists claim that every body would have taken as much coke as the first one, making the amount necessary impossible. But, it doesn't, as testified by lot's of experts, by nazi's themselves, and by sondercommando's working the ovens.

Regarding your statement :You are either unaware of or chose to forget all the efforts that the Germans made to help resettle the Jews as early as 1933.

Gosh, I didn't know those nice Nazi's as early as 1933 also helped the other countries before they invaded them in 39-40 to help and resettle the Jews.

But you know what really amuses me about you?
You claim not to be a supporter from the Nazi's, but just want to investigate the truth. You claim that all the testimonies from survivors, from allied soldiers etc can not be considered evidence. You claim all the German documents about transports etc etc, all the confessions from Nazi's, some freely given by SS men who had NO charges against them!, all those things, still can not be considered evidence, so it didn't happen according to you.

But.....now comes the brilliant part. From all the official population records from before and after the war, it is proven that an enormous number of Jewish people have disappeared....and now comes the priceless part. You claim that al those millions went to the Soviet Union, where they were either send to the gulags, or assimilated in the Soviet society, red army etc etc. But you cannot stake this with one shred of evidence, further more, there are not even testimonies from survivors, witnesses, no documents showing transports to Russia / the Gulags. All in all, you refuse the Holocaust because of lack of hard evidence (a photo of the gaschambers etc), ignoring millions op pieces of circumstancial evidence, and come up with a theory which even lacks that.

To think that 5-6 million Jews went up in Soviet society, without leaving even one trace....

Anyway, off to a long weekend in Paris....till we cross swords again.
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 07:16 PM
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Re: Are Holocaust deniers uneducated or just plain unpleasant?
The word deny or deniers is wrong because it implies that something really happened.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27577634


lol...true

clappa

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20078449


bump
Thor's Hamster

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12/13/2012 07:22 PM
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Why is it there's a Jewish Holocaust Memorial and/or Museum in nearly every major U.S. city?

First, AMERICA didn't do what is alleged to have happened to European Jews.

Second, where are the memorials, museums, and monuments to the other groups who suffered?

The "Holocaust" is the biggest fraud perpetrated on America and the West in the last half of the 20th century.

The biggest fraud of the FIRST half of the 20th century is why the U.S. entered WWI.

Read this...

Thread: DIRTY LITTLE SECRET ABOUT WORLD WAR I, HITLER, WORLD WAR II, ZIONISM...(***MUST READ!!!***)
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
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12/13/2012 07:24 PM
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...


shill

And a very vile one, too.
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12/13/2012 07:25 PM
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shill

A well-paid, atrocious sociopath one, too.

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