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An atheist challenges the faithful

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2012 04:38 PM
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An atheist challenges the faithful
Just a quick logic experiment for you faithful

1) According to religion God is the most powerful and forgiving being in the universe.

2)I am a human being. If I was God I would forgive every single person who committed a sin, no matter how bad, and I would spend eternity working with them and helping them rehabilitate

3) God apparently sends people to hell for a small as sin as not believing in him. If I was God I would not do this.

4) This leaves us with two conclusions

a) I am a more forgiving being than God
This makes God an inferior being to me, and in fact inferior to most people I know. In this conclusion God is a tyrant.

B) God is more forgiving than me, In which case he will forgive me all my sins and indeed help me when I get to heaven.

Discuss.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8788578
United States
12/10/2012 04:40 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Argh. *Please* don't be inviting more proud churchoids to spew their pompous religious noise.

gaah
Anonymous Coward
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Slovakia
12/10/2012 04:43 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
2)I am a human being. If I was God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Stop there. You are not.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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United Kingdom
12/10/2012 04:45 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
2)I am a human being. If I was God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Stop there. You are not.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


it's called a logic experiment
Anonymous Coward
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Slovakia
12/10/2012 04:47 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
2)I am a human being. If I was God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Stop there. You are not.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


it's called a logic experiment
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


If premise is wrong you will be wrong even if logical.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/10/2012 04:49 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
2)I am a human being. If I was God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Stop there. You are not.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


it's called a logic experiment
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


If premise is wrong you will be wrong even if logical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


How very convinient. you basically saying

"you can't do a logic experiment concerning God because he contains no logic" I think you just unwittingly made yourself and atheist. :)
Anonymous Coward
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Slovakia
12/10/2012 04:52 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
...


Stop there. You are not.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


it's called a logic experiment
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


If premise is wrong you will be wrong even if logical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


How very convinient. you basically saying

"you can't do a logic experiment concerning God because he contains no logic" I think you just unwittingly made yourself and atheist. :)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Beliefs are based on premises. Yours is illogical. Just saying. Believe what ever makes you lucky yet.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 29569318
United Kingdom
12/10/2012 04:55 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
...


it's called a logic experiment
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


If premise is wrong you will be wrong even if logical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


How very convinient. you basically saying

"you can't do a logic experiment concerning God because he contains no logic" I think you just unwittingly made yourself and atheist. :)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Beliefs are based on premises. Yours is illogical. Just saying. Believe what ever makes you lucky yet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


So you can't answer the logic experiment then. And you know deep down why you can't answer it, and this is why you won't actually face it. You'd rather ignore it and call it a false premise when it's already been stated that this is an experiment not a belief. Unless you are going to take part in the experiment please step aside for someone with an interest in logic, thanks.
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
12/10/2012 04:56 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Op Poses some good questions.

Ask yourself this.

If YOU were given gods powers for 1 million years to do with as you pleased..but the stipulation was that whatever you did HAD to be ALWAYS for the GOOD of all and nothing you ever did with that power could be done with selfish motivations..

WOULD YOU..having the power to trancend time and space and create life..WOULD you create a place of unmitigated torture for all the people you are PLANNING to bring into being?

YOU KNOW in advance who you will be torturing (Which goes AGAINST the stipulation because endless torture serves NO good purpose and does not BENEFIT those undergoing it in any way).

According to the stipulation of LOVE ONLY..those people you bring into being who you KNOW WILL rebell would HAVE to be rehabilitated..because THATS what LOVE would demand..NOT pointless endless torture.

So if you were bound BY the stipulation of PURE LOVE and PURE GOOD to all..you would be FORCED by that very same LAW of LOVE to FIND a way to bring back all those you KNEW would rebell against you..because the stipulation of LOVE..the GOOD OF ALL..would BIND you to it.

Thats why Jesus said he would leave the 99 GOOD sheep and search far and wide to find even ONE that had gone astray..and BRING IT BACK..with whatever means neccessary..including dying for that one sheep.

Notice in the parable he CARRIED the lost sheep back ON his shoulders,,HE BORE the burden of the lost sheep..and he BORE IT ALL THE WAY BACK.

He did NOT abandon even that one stubborn rebellious sheep.

Now I am sure that sheep kicked and screamed being carried so far on his shoulders..it was carried by the LAW OF LOVE..and could NOT go against it..because LOVE NEVER FAILS..even when WE WANT it to..

The doctrine of eternal torture goes AGAINST EVERYTHING GOD IS..which is LOVE.

He HAS justice..but he IS LOVE.

Justcie demands punichment.

SIN is its OWN punishment.

You break a law..you pay the price.

But once the price is paid for your trangression..god has ANOTHER attribute many TOTALLY FORGET ABOUT in their ZEAL to see wrongdoers TORURED forever..he has MERCY..which he says ENDURES FOREVER.

He mentioned in another parable about being locked up with the tormentors till THE LAST PENNY WAS PAID.

If eternal torture was TRUE..the you would have to have an INFINITE AMOUNT OF SINS..to spend an INFINITE AMOUNT OF TIME..paying for them.
HE SAID CLEARLY that you WOULD GET OUT..ONCE the last cent was paid..hell is not a fire pit of pointless torture.

Its a region of PURE LOVE..which EVIL people WILL FIND to be VERY tormenting..and there they will stay..UNTIL THEY FINALLY ARE PURGED of their evil nad PAY THE FINAL PENNY..and succumb at last..TO THE LAW OF LOVE.
Anonymous Coward
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Slovakia
12/10/2012 05:00 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
...


If premise is wrong you will be wrong even if logical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


How very convinient. you basically saying

"you can't do a logic experiment concerning God because he contains no logic" I think you just unwittingly made yourself and atheist. :)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Beliefs are based on premises. Yours is illogical. Just saying. Believe what ever makes you lucky yet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26268975


So you can't answer the logic experiment then. And you know deep down why you can't answer it, and this is why you won't actually face it. You'd rather ignore it and call it a false premise when it's already been stated that this is an experiment not a belief. Unless you are going to take part in the experiment please step aside for someone with an interest in logic, thanks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Humans you are no gods. Your logics fails.
CripplingLies

User ID: 5010858
Brazil
12/10/2012 05:03 PM

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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Thing is, one simply cannot diminish God to logic human thinking. Things are not that simple when it comes to divine attitude. Ask yourself this: If you are God, why would you have doubts or be trying to figure out something? If you are God, there are no doubts lurking your mind, you just "know" everything.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 7122996
United States
12/10/2012 05:04 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
- Epicurus
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3558872
United States
12/10/2012 05:09 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
- Epicurus
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7122996


Dude that was awesome! Thanks!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 26268975
Slovakia
12/10/2012 05:11 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
- Epicurus
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7122996


Then God said, "Let us make man in our image and let them rule … Genesis 1:26
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24028110
United States
12/10/2012 05:16 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
- Epicurus
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7122996


Epicurus was an idiot. If I helped my children with every problem they ever encountered, would they ever be anything more than children? Adult children - we already have an epidemic of those. You grow by overcoming your challenges. God will judge how you accomplished this.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8788578
United States
12/10/2012 05:18 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
If I helped my children with every problem they ever encountered, would they ever be anything more than children? Adult children - we already have an epidemic of those. You grow by overcoming your challenges. God will judge how you accomplished this.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24028110


Nice contrast with "Apart from me, you can do nothing"

;)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11039547
United Kingdom
12/10/2012 05:20 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
- Epicurus
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7122996


what an excellent quote, that summed up what I was trying to say in a far more poetic way. Thanks for that.

The problem is God is seemingly without logic but at the same time managed to construct the universe using the laws of physics, or at the very least left the logical laws of physics to be discovered.

The old "god moves in mysterious ways" is just basically an easy way out of any logical attempt to talk about god. It's the go to sentence whenever there is a logic flaw in gods laws.

Either god is all forgiving and lets everyone into heaven (which is what any decent human would do) thus placing humans higher than God in the benevolence stakes

or

God sends people to hell to burn and suffer for eternity just because they lacked faith.

or

He was made up through a mixture of fear and control over many centuries of human evolution.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/10/2012 05:23 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
God sends people to hell to burn and suffer for eternity just because they lacked faith.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11039547


. . .which is absurd, considering He claims to be the *Author* of said faith

cheers

hf
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11039547
United Kingdom
12/10/2012 05:32 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Thing is, one simply cannot diminish God to logic human thinking. Things are not that simple when it comes to divine attitude. Ask yourself this: If you are God, why would you have doubts or be trying to figure out something? If you are God, there are no doubts lurking your mind, you just "know" everything.
 Quoting: CripplingLies


So how do you know God would bring you into heaven for being a "Good christian". If God doesn't obey logic then he could quite literally be expecting you all to do the exact opposite of everything that is said in the Bible. You see laws require logic, if you are saying God has no logic then he has no laws.

What you are basically saying is you think god is like sheogorath out of the elder scrolls games (a complete nutjob with no logic who loves to shout about cheese and forgive or murder people on a whim. Not really the kind of guy you'd want to pledge your soul to is it?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/10/2012 05:40 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
So how do you know God would bring you into heaven for being a "Good christian". If God doesn't obey logic then he could quite literally be expecting you all to do the exact opposite of everything that is said in the Bible. You see laws require logic, if you are saying God has no logic then he has no laws.

What you are basically saying is you think god is like sheogorath out of the elder scrolls games (a complete nutjob with no logic who loves to shout about cheese and forgive or murder people on a whim. Not really the kind of guy you'd want to pledge your soul to is it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11039547


He's not a nutjob - he just wants an offering of yarn (and I forget what else)

:)
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2012 05:42 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Just a quick logic experiment for you faithful

1) According to religion God is the most powerful and forgiving being in the universe.

2)I am a human being. If I was God I would forgive every single person who committed a sin, no matter how bad, and I would spend eternity working with them and helping them rehabilitate

3) God apparently sends people to hell for a small as sin as not believing in him. If I was God I would not do this.

4) This leaves us with two conclusions

a) I am a more forgiving being than God
This makes God an inferior being to me, and in fact inferior to most people I know. In this conclusion God is a tyrant.

B) God is more forgiving than me, In which case he will forgive me all my sins and indeed help me when I get to heaven.

Discuss.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318


Why do you base your thoughts on whether a Creator being exist or not on christianity?

A silly religion does not autoequate into there not being a Creator.
Lada D

User ID: 20712268
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12/10/2012 05:55 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Just a quick logic experiment for you faithful

1) According to religion God is the most powerful and forgiving being in the universe.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29569318

Oh boy, what a ridiculous blanket statement. Which God? Whose God? Do you know that there is more than one entity that is referred to as "God" In the OT? Do you know the OT contains a Pantheon? Do you know that much of the OT Is from Pantheistic proto-cultures? You fail right out of the gate with a faulty premise.
2)I am a human being. If I was God I would forgive every single person who committed a sin, no matter how bad, and I would spend eternity working with them and helping them rehabilitate
 Quoting: faulty premise guy

Actual God is doing precisely this through Jesus Christ. Your Sunday School understanding of the plan of salvation is lacking.
3) God apparently sends people to hell for a small as sin as not believing in him. If I was God I would not do this.
 Quoting: op

God does not send people to Hell. People send themselves to Hell.

If you had an inflatable life raft and needed to fill it with a billion people in order to save them, you would be forced to leave behind the asshole who is wearing a suit made of spikes and razorblades and won't take it off. That guy has to sink, and it's his choice to do so.

4) This leaves us with two conclusions

a) I am a more forgiving being than God
This makes God an inferior being to me, and in fact inferior to most people I know. In this conclusion God is a tyrant.

B) God is more forgiving than me, In which case he will forgive me all my sins and indeed help me when I get to heaven.

Discuss.
 Quoting: Oh boy, here it comes


You are the guy who doesn't want to take off the Razor Blade suit because you like it. That is my conclusion.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8788578
United States
12/10/2012 05:57 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
If you had an inflatable life raft and needed to fill it with a billion people in order to save them, you would be forced to leave behind the asshole who is wearing a suit made of spikes and razorblades and won't take it off. That guy has to sink, and it's his choice to do so.
 Quoting: Lada D


omg. God's inescapable grip is a little sturdier than an inflatable raft.

rolleyes
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
12/10/2012 05:58 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Op Poses some good questions.

Ask yourself this.

If YOU were given gods powers for 1 million years to do with as you pleased..but the stipulation was that whatever you did HAD to be ALWAYS for the GOOD of all and nothing you ever did with that power could be done with selfish motivations..

WOULD YOU..having the power to trancend time and space and create life..WOULD you create a place of unmitigated torture for all the people you are PLANNING to bring into being?

YOU KNOW in advance who you will be torturing (Which goes AGAINST the stipulation because endless torture serves NO good purpose and does not BENEFIT those undergoing it in any way).

According to the stipulation of LOVE ONLY..those people you bring into being who you KNOW WILL rebell would HAVE to be rehabilitated..because THATS what LOVE would demand..NOT pointless endless torture.

So if you were bound BY the stipulation of PURE LOVE and PURE GOOD to all..you would be FORCED by that very same LAW of LOVE to FIND a way to bring back all those you KNEW would rebell against you..because the stipulation of LOVE..the GOOD OF ALL..would BIND you to it.

Thats why Jesus said he would leave the 99 GOOD sheep and search far and wide to find even ONE that had gone astray..and BRING IT BACK..with whatever means neccessary..including dying for that one sheep.

Notice in the parable he CARRIED the lost sheep back ON his shoulders,,HE BORE the burden of the lost sheep..and he BORE IT ALL THE WAY BACK.

He did NOT abandon even that one stubborn rebellious sheep.

Now I am sure that sheep kicked and screamed being carried so far on his shoulders..it was carried by the LAW OF LOVE..and could NOT go against it..because LOVE NEVER FAILS..even when WE WANT it to..

The doctrine of eternal torture goes AGAINST EVERYTHING GOD IS..which is LOVE.

He HAS justice..but he IS LOVE.

Justcie demands punichment.

SIN is its OWN punishment.

You break a law..you pay the price.

But once the price is paid for your trangression..god has ANOTHER attribute many TOTALLY FORGET ABOUT in their ZEAL to see wrongdoers TORURED forever..he has MERCY..which he says ENDURES FOREVER.

He mentioned in another parable about being locked up with the tormentors till THE LAST PENNY WAS PAID.

If eternal torture was TRUE..the you would have to have an INFINITE AMOUNT OF SINS..to spend an INFINITE AMOUNT OF TIME..paying for them.
HE SAID CLEARLY that you WOULD GET OUT..ONCE the last cent was paid..hell is not a fire pit of pointless torture.

Its a region of PURE LOVE..which EVIL people WILL FIND to be VERY tormenting..and there they will stay..UNTIL THEY FINALLY ARE PURGED of their evil nad PAY THE FINAL PENNY..and succumb at last..TO THE LAW OF LOVE.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17288812
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8788578
United States
12/10/2012 05:59 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
You are the guy who doesn't want to take off the Razor Blade suit because you like it. That is my conclusion.
 Quoting: Lada D


wtf. The guy is objectively pondering forgiveness, and you're judging him for it?!

sigh
Dr. Doom

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12/10/2012 06:04 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Lada D

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12/10/2012 06:05 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
You are the guy who doesn't want to take off the Razor Blade suit because you like it. That is my conclusion.
 Quoting: Lada D


wtf. The guy is objectively pondering forgiveness, and you're judging him for it?!

sigh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


OH, the poor, sincere, earnest seeker of truth! Oh, what injustice I've inflicted on this pained, innocent, long-suffering individual!

OH DEAR! The Humanity!

I'm not judging anybody, I have an opinion like everyone else. Bloody hell you a-holes love to whip out that "Judgement" word like it means something.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2012 06:07 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
are we at the precipse of wisdom and knowledge as a species? NO! Far from it. look at our world its a disaster. Why? Because we are inferior to God? If so then we make horrible decisions as a species when we lack knowledge, love, and wisdom. Where do we find this?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
12/10/2012 06:12 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
- Epicurus
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7122996


Epicurus was an idiot. If I helped my children with every problem they ever encountered, would they ever be anything more than children? Adult children - we already have an epidemic of those. You grow by overcoming your challenges. God will judge how you accomplished this.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24028110


Would I rather be treated like a child or have a 7 to 1 chance of being thrown into a firey pit of hell to be tormented for all eternity, in a place where not even death will enter?
I'll go with being treated like a child, thank you very much.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2012 06:13 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
You are the guy who doesn't want to take off the Razor Blade suit because you like it. That is my conclusion.
 Quoting: Lada D


wtf. The guy is objectively pondering forgiveness, and you're judging him for it?!

sigh
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


OH, the poor, sincere, earnest seeker of truth! Oh, what injustice I've inflicted on this pained, innocent, long-suffering individual!

OH DEAR! The Humanity!

I'm not judging anybody, I have an opinion like everyone else. Bloody hell you a-holes love to whip out that "Judgement" word like it means something.
 Quoting: Lada D


You sound like a real swell person in real life.
Aka: You be a bitch
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
12/10/2012 06:13 PM
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Re: An atheist challenges the faithful
Argh. *Please* don't be inviting more proud churchoids to spew their pompous religious noise.

gaah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


Too late!

Then, of course, it would always be "too late".

damned

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