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The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.

 
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The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
The people who mixed pagan designs on synagogue walls and on their tombs along with Jewish themes were not Jews under Rabbinic control. This can be shown in various ways. Besides the lack of reference to these pagan practices in any contemporary Jewish literature of the period, the same lack of reference can be shown in records maintained by our Christian authorities who lived from the second to the sixth centuries. This is an important point to consider because our early Christian authorities were well versed in matters concerning the Jews and their teachings. Because the majority of Christians felt that the Jews and their religion were under a ban from God because of their rejection of Jesus as the Christ, the Christians watched with a hawk’s eye any activity by the Jewish authorities which would demonstrate this lapse from God as they viewed it to be. In this regard, Christian testimony about the Jews and their doctrines becomes an important witness to the faithfulness of the mainline Jewish people in abhorring idolatrous themes and having nothing to do with idolatry or its practices.

In showing this Christian testimony, one must be aware that during the period from the second to the sixth centuries of our era, most Jews and Christians were quite hostile to the doctrines of each other and we know that each party was looking for ways to denigrate the other. There was little friendliness between the two groups (the only exception being the dialogue between Trypho the Jew and Justin Martyr in the middle of the 2nd century). But even though Jews and Christians were virtual enemies during this period, and with Christians trying desperately in many public debates to show what they considered to be the error of Jewish beliefs, it is significant that not once (in all mainline Christian literature that has come down to us from those times) do the Christians blame the Jewish people for practicing any form of idolatry. The central accusation that Christians had of Jews was their refusal to accept Jesus as the prophesied Messiah and what Christians considered was their allegorizing away some plain scriptures which prophesied of the Messiah that Christians believed were fulfilled by Jesus. That’s it! There is not a word of Christians accusing the Jews as a whole or as individuals who were mainline Jews of the slightest idolatrous acts after the fall of Jerusalem in C.E. 70. and up to and including the 6th century.

This is a highly important point because this was the very period when Christians and Jews were battling one another over many doctrinal disputes. But the practice of idolatry by the Jews (that is, the making or using of idols, paintings, symbols, etc. in their synagogues or burial places) was a subject that never came up among mainline Christians. At no time did they consider mainline Jews as practicing idolatry.

Some might believe, however, that the reason Christians did not censure the Jews for adopting pagan ways (as the archaeological remains we have mentioned in the first two chapters of this book seemingly suggest) is because the Christians were themselves beginning to indulge in the same practice of using pagan motifs in their religious services. Some people believe that even mainline Christians were engaged in doing the same thing starting with the second and third centuries. This is because at Dura Europos was also found a small Christian church near the synagogue and it also had pagan paintings on its walls. It showed Jesus as the pagan god Orpheus.

This discovery of an early mid-3rd century church having a painting of Orpheus as Jesus is the first example of Christian folk who violated the second command against the use of images or idols. In this first depiction, Jesus is shown beardless and not with long feminine hair which became the later portrayal of Jesus from the mid-4th century onward. This latter portrayal of Jesus having long hair and a beard like the pagan gods Zeus (Sarapis) or Askelepios the pagan god of healing only came into vogue with the advent of Constantine and his family.



The discovery of this church at Dura Europos with its pagan paintings in a similar way to the synagogue of the same period that was not far away, would normally suggest to historians that Christian testimony about the idolatry of the Jews at the time was probably not forthcoming since Christians were themselves practicing idolatrous actions. And this is true enough among certain groups who were calling themselves Christians. The "orthodox" Christians referred to them as “Gnostics”; those who were mixing pagan themes with those of the Holy Scriptures (we will speak about these people shortly and discuss their idolatrous ways). But for mainline Christianity (which is normally called “orthodox Christianity” today), every single authority up to the time of Constantine condemned the slightest practice of idolatry among Christians as well as did the mainline Jews.



The following excerpts from early historical documents (which I will soon give) show the opposition by several Christian theologians during and soon after the time of Constantine to the pagan portrayals of Jesus that were just beginning to be distributed amongst orthodox Christians.

With the advent of Constantine, Christian attitude against such idolatrous use of images and pictures began to wane. In the higher social circles in Christendom (and in the emperor’s family itself), the people began to abandon the former stance of mainline Christians against idolatrous depictions in their churches. They then started to show Jesus in the form of Zeus (Sarapis) and Askelepios with long hair and a beard. This was never done among "orthodox" Christians before the time of Constantine.

The following quote (abridged) is from Eusebius’ "Letter to Constantia" (the sister of Constantine the Great). It shows the utter disdain of Eusebius (the first historian of the Christian church) for the trend toward idolatry that was beginning to occur in "orthodox" churches.

(see link - words in red - for the letters)
[link to www.askelm.com]

these letters are amazing. check em out...



In summation, I wish to quote from one of the top ecclesiastical historians of our time on this important matter. He is Professor W.H.C. Frend. He shows the universal abhorrence of any type of idolatrous themes in what we call the orthodox churches in the second, third and up to the mid-fourth centuries. He cites in his notes the authorities for his statements.

"The origins of Christian art remain a mystery. Ostensibly, both Judaism and Christianity rejected pictorial art on religious subjects. The second commandment had forbidden Israel to make any graven image, and Christian leaders in the East and West alike, including Tertullian, accepted this. Clement and Eusebius, showing rare unanimity, considered this prohibition absolute and binding on Christians. The principal crime [said Tertullian] of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment, is idolatry, and for once Tertullian commanded almost universal assent. The Syriac Didascalia laid down that no offerings were to be received from those who painted with colors, nor from those who made idols or worked in silver and bronze. At the other end of the Mediterranean world, canon 36 of the Council of Elvira stated without qualification that there should be no paintings in church lest what was painted on the wars should be worshiped and venerated."

• Frend, The Rise of Christianity, p.415

The early mainline Christians held all forms of idolatry (paintings, pictures, symbols, statues, etc.) in complete abomination. And, important to the issue before us, none of them ever accused mainline Jews of having such things in their synagogues or in their homes up to and including the time of Constantine. Historians will have to look elsewhere for the origin of the synagogue at Dura Europos and the small Christian church at the same site (which date to the middle of the 3rd century) than looking to mainline Judaism or mainline Christianity as the source of those idolatrous paintings. But really, we can now know without difficulty who were the first to bring such pagan paintings and symbols into certain types of synagogues and certain types of churches. Those people were not mainline Jews or mainline Christians.


50% rule observed
[link to www.askelm.com]
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
bump
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
[[crickets]]
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.

 Quoting: Salt


the images in this vid are important for this topic.
gets real interesting 2 mins in or so
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thank you, I think it is quit'n time soon. People need to realize God is not mad ate them, He loves us and modern Christianity has mad a set of salvation rules they them selves cannot follow. Christians, Love is what Jesus brought because He knows Love is the greatest need a human being has. Please Love One Another.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thank you, I think it is quit'n time soon. People need to realize God is not mad ate them, He loves us and modern Christianity has mad a set of salvation rules they them selves cannot follow. Christians, Love is what Jesus brought because He knows Love is the greatest need a human being has. Please Love One Another.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21195758


amen to that
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
This is copyrighted information presented under the Fair Use Doctrine of the United States Copyright Act (section 107 of title 17) which states: 'the fair use of a copyrighted work...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.' In practice the courts have decided that anything which does not financially harm the copyright holder is fair use.



words in brackets are from the author in the link provided in OP:

[link to www.askelm.com]

The following quote (abridged) is from Eusebius’ "Letter to Constantia" (the sister of Constantine the Great). It shows the utter disdain of Eusebius (the first historian of the Christian church) for the trend toward idolatry that was beginning to occur in "orthodox" churches. He expressed complete outrage that any one would lapse into such depravity. All words in brackets are mine and the italics and bold letters are my emphases.

"You also wrote me about some supposed image of Christ, which image you wished me to send to you. Now what kind of thing is that you refer to as the image of Christ? I do not know what compelled you to request that an image of Our Savior should be shown. What kind of image of Christ are you seeking? Is it the true and unadulterated one which bears His essential characteristics [His divine image], or the one which He assumed for our sake when He took up the form of a servant [His human form]? ... Granted, He has two forms, and even I do not think that your petition has to do with His divine form. ... Surely then, you are seeking His image as a servant, that of the flesh which He assumed for our sake. ... How can one paint an image so unattainable and wonderful ... unless, as so the unbelieving pagans, one is to represent things that have no possible resemblance to anything ... ? For they [the pagans] make such idols when they wish to form the likeness of what they think to be a god or, as they might say, one of the heroes or anything else of like nature, yet they are unable even to approach a likeness, and accurately represent some strange human forms. Surely, even you will agree with me that such practices are illegal for us. [Eusebius believed, accurately so, that even a true likeness of Jesus ― if one were available ― was still not allowed to be displayed by biblical teaching.] Have you ever heard of such a resemblance yourself in church or from another person? Are not such things excluded and banished from churches all over the world, and does not everyone know that such practices are not permitted to us alone?

"Once there was a woman, I do not know how, brought me in her hands a picture of two men in the demeanor of philosophers [with their hair long ― see Dio Chrysostom, “Oration Thirty-Five,” vol.III, pp.393, 401] and the woman mentioned that they were Paul and the Savior. I have no way of knowing where she got this information or where she learned it. But in order that neither she nor others might receive offense, I took the picture away from her and kept it in my house, as I thought it was improper for such things to be displayed to others, lest we appear, like idol worshipers, to carry our God around in an image. I note that Paul informs all of us not to hold any more to things of the flesh; because he tells us that though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet from now on we know Him no more."
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
This is copyrighted information presented under the Fair Use Doctrine of the United States Copyright Act (section 107 of title 17) which states: 'the fair use of a copyrighted work...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.' In practice the courts have decided that anything which does not financially harm the copyright holder is fair use.





The following is a quote from Epiphanius (bracketed words and emphases belong to the author).

"Which of the ancient Fathers ever painted an image of Christ and put it in a church or a private home? [None of them ever did such a thing.] Which ancient bishop ever dishonored Christ by depicting Him on door curtains?...

"Moreover, they are deceiving who portray the likeness of [biblical] saints in different forms according to their whim, sometimes showing the same individuals as old men, sometimes as young men, intruding into things which they have not seen. For they paint the Savior with long hair, and this by guessing because He is called a Nazarene, and Nazarenes wear long hair. They are in error if they try to attach stereotypes to Him, because the Savior drank wine, whereas the Nazarenes [the Nazarites] did not.

"They also show forth deception by concocting things according to their whims. These falsifiers present the holy apostle Peter as an old person with his hair and beard cut short; some portray holy Paul as a man with receding hair, others as bald and bearded, and the other apostles are shown having their hair closely cut off. If then the Savior had long hair while his apostles were cut close, and since by not being cropped, He was unlike them in appearance, for what reason did the Pharisees and scribes give a fee of thirty silver pieces to Judas that he might kiss Him and show them that He was the one they were after, when they might themselves or by means of others have determined on account of His [long] hair Him whom they were seeking to find, and thereby without paying a fee?...

"Can you not see, O most God-loving emperor, that this state of things is not in accord to God? [Which trend was then sweeping the Christian world.] Wherefore I beg of you ... that the curtains which may be found that have such false portrayals of the apostles or prophets or of the lord Christ Himself should be collected from churches, baptisteries, houses and martyria [sites where martyrs were buried or honored] and that you should give them over for the burial of the poor, and as [for those] on walls, that they should be whitewashed. As for those that have already been designed in mosaics, realizing that their removal is difficult you know what to command in the wisdom that God has granted you. If it be possible to remove them [mosaics], well and good; but if this is not possible, let that which has already been produced suffice, and let no one paint in this manner from now on."

[link to www.askelm.com]
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.

 Quoting: Salt


this vid is important for the symbols and images that are pagan in nature and have been incorporated into the church and synagogue.

gets real interesting about 3 mins in
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
for those who dont get it...
pagan/satanic images were brought into the synagogue and also the church. they used symbols (star of david, etc) and pictures of Jesus that looked like Greek mythos gods and other pagan gods, etc.


everything we know as religious symbols are actually pagan satanic images that God forbade from the beginning.
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i guess i'm the only person that finds this interesting

lol...
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thank you, I think it is quit'n time soon. People need to realize God is not mad ate them, He loves us and modern Christianity has mad a set of salvation rules they them selves cannot follow. Christians, Love is what Jesus brought because He knows Love is the greatest need a human being has. Please Love One Another.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21195758


Post of the Year
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thank you, I think it is quit'n time soon. People need to realize God is not mad ate them, He loves us and modern Christianity has mad a set of salvation rules they them selves cannot follow. Christians, Love is what Jesus brought because He knows Love is the greatest need a human being has. Please Love One Another.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21195758


Post of the Year
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


agreed
Life and Love

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i guess i'm the only person that finds this interesting

lol...
 Quoting: Salt


Hey, I just found the thread!! LOL

It's no surprise that there are "outliers" that did such things.
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
i guess i'm the only person that finds this interesting

lol...
 Quoting: Salt


Hey, I just found the thread!! LOL

It's no surprise that there are "outliers" that did such things.
 Quoting: Life and Love


bump
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Hot Santa hat smoking girl is hot.... also this is an interesting article. I've often wondered how Christianity got so far removed from its Judaic roots.
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bump for a pulse
Shoot straight Johnny
Yeah...yeah and thrice yeah

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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.

 Quoting: Salt


I watched the vid, and found it, well...moderately interesting, but a bit 'far-fetched', like most of these type of vids are. That stuff is definitely 'up my street' though.

Also I didn't read much of the OP...too long.
The chariots of God are tens of thousands, and thousands of thousands.
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 Quoting: Salt


I watched the vid, and found it, well...moderately interesting, but a bit 'far-fetched', like most of these type of vids are. That stuff is definitely 'up my street' though.

Also I didn't read much of the OP...too long.
 Quoting: Shoot straight Johnny


thanks for your honesty
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
hmmmm,...very interesting.
thanks Salt.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
hmmmm,...very interesting.
thanks Salt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31046623


hf
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vid got poofed
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
vid got poofed
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30969563


huh?
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
This video contains content from AdRev Publishing, Made in Etaly, Dance all Day, AdRev for a 3rd Party, CD Baby, MPI Media, IODA and [Merlin] S T Holdings Ltd, one or more of whom have blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
Sorry about that.
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hi
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" — John M. Keynes
"The way to see by [blind] faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin
The Self Defining Hebrew System: [link to www.thechronicleproject.org]
Real men keep Torah.
Knighted into the Army of Yahuwah on 10-9-10.

Avinu shebashamayim, yitkadesh shimkha. Tavo malkhutekha ye'aseh r'tzonekha ba'aretz ka'asher na'asah vashamayimTen-lanu haiyom lechem chukeinu. u'selach-lanu et-ashmateinu ka'asher solechim anachnu la'asher ashmu lanu. Ve'al-tevieinu lidei massah, ki im-hatsileinu min-hara. Ki lekha ha-mamlakha vehagevurah veha-tiferet l'olemei olamim. Amen.
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This video contains content from AdRev Publishing, Made in Etaly, Dance all Day, AdRev for a 3rd Party, CD Baby, MPI Media, IODA and [Merlin] S T Holdings Ltd, one or more of whom have blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
Sorry about that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29417490


ITS A CONSPIRACY NOW!!!!!
I look up at the sky, and wonder where I am on earth. Then I wonder where I am in the solar system. Then I wonder where I am in the galaxy. Then I wonder where I am in the universe. Then I wonder what universe am I in.
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hi
 Quoting: Sir Phydeau


hey!
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thats lot of reading there Salt!

lol

bump for later when i can let it soak in! :)

Last Edited by Dr. Acula on 12/28/2012 10:42 PM
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Thats lot of reading there Salt!

lol

bump for later when i can let it soak in! :)
 Quoting: Dr. Acula


yeah, i know.
no way to encapsulate the topic without all of that.
sorry for the laborious topic, but it's worth it, trust me.
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Thats lot of reading there Salt!

lol

bump for later when i can let it soak in! :)
 Quoting: Dr. Acula


yeah, i know.
no way to encapsulate the topic without all of that.
sorry for the laborious topic, but it's worth it, trust me.
 Quoting: Salt


oh no trust me... its nice to see :)

ohyeah

my brain is in hypermode right now and i cant concentrate on much of anything at the moment lol

in a few hours the wine will have kicked in ;)

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