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The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.

 
The Way of Enoch
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thats lot of reading there Salt!

lol

bump for later when i can let it soak in! :)
 Quoting: Dr. Acula


yeah, i know.
no way to encapsulate the topic without all of that.
sorry for the laborious topic, but it's worth it, trust me.
 Quoting: Salt

thumbs
Those who do not learn from history are forced to repeat it - George Santayana; Those who pretend it never happened embrace repeating it.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
:oldestpicjesushe:
The Healing of the Paralytic – the oldest known image of Jesus, from the Syrian city of Dura Europos, dating from about 235 ( [link to en.wikipedia.org]
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
:oldestpicjesushe:
The Healing of the Paralytic – the oldest known image of Jesus, from the Syrian city of Dura Europos, dating from about 235 ( [link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Salt


Sarapis/Zeus 2nd century

:sarapis:
Nemamiah
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Excellent article Salt!

There is one very large "Christian" denomination that I can think of that uses copious amounts of graven images and adorns their palaces with all kinds of "art"...billions of people, fooled.

I'm going to have to do some heavy reading on that ASK site...never knew it existed before :)

Thanks again and God bless!

hf
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
for those who dont get it...
pagan/satanic images were brought into the synagogue and also the church. they used symbols (star of david, etc) and pictures of Jesus that looked like Greek mythos gods and other pagan gods, etc.


everything we know as religious symbols are actually pagan satanic images that God forbade from the beginning.
 Quoting: Salt

Great topic Salt !(like always) and very important at this time because of what people are confusing who Jesus is.
FYI - Your You Tube video isn't working.

awesomefffdff

Last Edited by Indysmindy on 12/29/2012 01:00 AM
**The first step to salvation is to realize that we are all sinners:
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
The Way of Enoch
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Excellent article Salt!

There is one very large "Christian" denomination that I can think of that uses copious amounts of graven images and adorns their palaces with all kinds of "art"...billions of people, fooled.

I'm going to have to do some heavy reading on that ASK site...never knew it existed before :)

Thanks again and God bless!

hf
 Quoting: Nemamiah


I wonder which one that would be?charlie


idolworship1mary3
Those who do not learn from history are forced to repeat it - George Santayana; Those who pretend it never happened embrace repeating it.
Indysmindy

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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
It's working!! Watching it now.
**The first step to salvation is to realize that we are all sinners:
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
It's working!! Watching it now.
 Quoting: Indysmindy


ok, good.
the vid is a good presentation on both Jewish and Christian idols/pagan images incorporated into the religion. mind blowing.
Lada D

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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Salt -

Can't really back this up *but*

As a former Mormon, we were taught that a Version of Christianity existed before "Jews" popped up, one that was centered around the expectation of Messiah, rather than the one that is looking back on Messiah.

Let's suppose this is true, that God revealed his plan of Christ to Adam, and Adam and family carried on these traditions as the generations spread around the globe.

Would it not be logical to assume that some of what we call the "Pagan" beliefs and practices are really just this Pre-Christian tradition with names changing based on culture, some of the details warped, just enough so that you essentially get the same story in every culture but slightly different?

We know that "Wise Men" aka Astrologers were keeping tabs on the charts, waiting for this Messiah.

Now since Astrology is naturally cyclical, would it not be logical to assume that there were several canidates for "Messiah" in the old world?

We cannot deny that the story of Christ is a direct reflection of Zodiacal influences and correspondences. Nor should we, if God's plan was revealed to Adam, it was likely in the form of the Zodiac which is why so much Occult is hidden within the Torah as Kabbalah.

I think what we have here is a case of the tail wagging the dog, and that the root of Paganism is, in fact, Christianity.

It is the Yahwehic, Judaic interloper who first contacted Abraham that came along and really, truly messed things up and made it all very confusing, calling himself "God" of creation when, perhaps, not so much?
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Salt -

Can't really back this up *but*

As a former Mormon, we were taught that a Version of Christianity existed before "Jews" popped up, one that was centered around the expectation of Messiah, rather than the one that is looking back on Messiah.

Let's suppose this is true, that God revealed his plan of Christ to Adam, and Adam and family carried on these traditions as the generations spread around the globe.

Would it not be logical to assume that some of what we call the "Pagan" beliefs and practices are really just this Pre-Christian tradition with names changing based on culture, some of the details warped, just enough so that you essentially get the same story in every culture but slightly different?

We know that "Wise Men" aka Astrologers were keeping tabs on the charts, waiting for this Messiah.

Now since Astrology is naturally cyclical, would it not be logical to assume that there were several canidates for "Messiah" in the old world?

We cannot deny that the story of Christ is a direct reflection of Zodiacal influences and correspondences. Nor should we, if God's plan was revealed to Adam, it was likely in the form of the Zodiac which is why so much Occult is hidden within the Torah as Kabbalah.

I think what we have here is a case of the tail wagging the dog, and that the root of Paganism is, in fact, Christianity.

It is the Yahwehic, Judaic interloper who first contacted Abraham that came along and really, truly messed things up and made it all very confusing, calling himself "God" of creation when, perhaps, not so much?
 Quoting: Lada D


the zodiacal influences are a reflection of the actuality/reality of Christ. not the other way around.

Christ was prophecied from the very beginning. lots of chunks of the ancient writings cut out and left on the "editing floor" of the synagogues of the time. these would be the OT apocryphals. God's plan was revealed to Adam, it is included in the writings starting with Genesis 1:1.

While there were many other religions in the world; animism, paganism; polytheism, etc etc etc, God revealed Himself to the Israelites.

You are either reading too many of apollo's threads or getting waist deep in new age stuff.

Paganism is way older than Christianity, they are completely different and separate from each other until non-mainline Jews and Christians began blending them together, and that is the premise of this thread.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
You listen to the Byte Show, don't you?
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
You listen to the Byte Show, don't you?
 Quoting: Spitting Into The Wind


never heard of it
Spitting Into The Wind

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You listen to the Byte Show, don't you?
 Quoting: Spitting Into The Wind


never heard of it
 Quoting: Salt


I am surprised. I just heard the guy who took over the ASKELM ministry read the article on the site last week: [link to www.thebyteshow.com]
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
You listen to the Byte Show, don't you?
 Quoting: Spitting Into The Wind


never heard of it
 Quoting: Salt


I am surprised. I just heard the guy who took over the ASKELM ministry read the article on the site last week: [link to www.thebyteshow.com]
 Quoting: Spitting Into The Wind


link seems interesting. i think i will check a few of these out. thanks
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Excellent article Salt!

There is one very large "Christian" denomination that I can think of that uses copious amounts of graven images and adorns their palaces with all kinds of "art"...billions of people, fooled.

I'm going to have to do some heavy reading on that ASK site...never knew it existed before :)

Thanks again and God bless!

hf
 Quoting: Nemamiah


hahaha, right!
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
This is copyrighted information presented under the Fair Use Doctrine of the United States Copyright Act (section 107 of title 17) which states: 'the fair use of a copyrighted work...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.' In practice the courts have decided that anything which does not financially harm the copyright holder is fair use.



words in brackets are from the author in the link provided in OP:

[link to www.askelm.com]

The following quote (abridged) is from Eusebius’ "Letter to Constantia" (the sister of Constantine the Great). It shows the utter disdain of Eusebius (the first historian of the Christian church) for the trend toward idolatry that was beginning to occur in "orthodox" churches. He expressed complete outrage that any one would lapse into such depravity. All words in brackets are mine and the italics and bold letters are my emphases.

"You also wrote me about some supposed image of Christ, which image you wished me to send to you. Now what kind of thing is that you refer to as the image of Christ? I do not know what compelled you to request that an image of Our Savior should be shown. What kind of image of Christ are you seeking? Is it the true and unadulterated one which bears His essential characteristics [His divine image], or the one which He assumed for our sake when He took up the form of a servant [His human form]? ... Granted, He has two forms, and even I do not think that your petition has to do with His divine form. ... Surely then, you are seeking His image as a servant, that of the flesh which He assumed for our sake. ... How can one paint an image so unattainable and wonderful ... unless, as so the unbelieving pagans, one is to represent things that have no possible resemblance to anything ... ? For they [the pagans] make such idols when they wish to form the likeness of what they think to be a god or, as they might say, one of the heroes or anything else of like nature, yet they are unable even to approach a likeness, and accurately represent some strange human forms. Surely, even you will agree with me that such practices are illegal for us. [Eusebius believed, accurately so, that even a true likeness of Jesus ― if one were available ― was still not allowed to be displayed by biblical teaching.] Have you ever heard of such a resemblance yourself in church or from another person? Are not such things excluded and banished from churches all over the world, and does not everyone know that such practices are not permitted to us alone?

"Once there was a woman, I do not know how, brought me in her hands a picture of two men in the demeanor of philosophers [with their hair long ― see Dio Chrysostom, “Oration Thirty-Five,” vol.III, pp.393, 401] and the woman mentioned that they were Paul and the Savior. I have no way of knowing where she got this information or where she learned it. But in order that neither she nor others might receive offense, I took the picture away from her and kept it in my house, as I thought it was improper for such things to be displayed to others, lest we appear, like idol worshipers, to carry our God around in an image. I note that Paul informs all of us not to hold any more to things of the flesh; because he tells us that though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet from now on we know Him no more."
 Quoting: Salt
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
any non idolators out there?

we only need one

just one
Lada D

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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
the zodiacal influences are a reflection of the actuality/reality of Christ. not the other way around.
 Quoting: Salt

It's both, at the same time IMO. God makes the sky, puts in the Zodiac as his signature, revealing his plans. Zodiac fortells Christ, Christ fulfills Zodiac.

Christ was prophecied from the very beginning. lots of chunks of the ancient writings cut out and left on the "editing floor" of the synagogues of the time. these would be the OT apocryphals. God's plan was revealed to Adam, it is included in the writings starting with Genesis 1:1.
 Quoting: Salt

It becomes clear, fairly quickly, that Genesis is older than Judaism, which is ironic since it is attributed to Moses. If we are going to be honest, what we would say after careful evaluation is that Moses recieved the Torah from Yahweh, who seems to be retelling already existing stories about Adam, Eve and the generations of man. Genesis itself spells out the origins of Creation epics that echo that of Archeology, essentially that Abraham was from Ur, Sumeria, and the occounts went from Sumeria to Babylon to Egypt.

This is all generously awarded on the foundation that Genesis is actually older than 500 BC or so, and that "Moses" had any real thing to do with it.

Why are the earliest Jewish expectations of Messiah apocryphal, anyway? That's worth a thread.

While there were many other religions in the world; animism, paganism; polytheism, etc etc etc, God revealed Himself to the Israelites.

 Quoting: Salt

Yeah, but didn't God reveal himself and his plans to Adam, as well? So between Adam and Israel, you have thousands of years which Adamic knowledge gradually decays and gets forgotten/distorted and next thing you know you have "Hmmm, that's quite similar to Christ..." Pagan systems developing, all very similar to each other.

Enter your Mithras, Krishnas, all these types you always hear about.

You are either reading too many of apollo's threads or getting waist deep in new age stuff.
 Quoting: Salt

Here's the thing: Christ had secrets, and Christ mentioned that these secrets would be unveiled in the last days.

The Globalization of information brings all points of view together for scrutiny. Certainly, we cannot reject all new or potentially insightful information or theory out-of-hand simply because it is new.

New Age is channeling, divining, scrying, Chakra molesting, this sort of thing. I'm not saying any of that.

I'm just suggesting that Christianity was established with Adam, passed down, got mixed up a bit, and completely changed color through what became Judaism, to the point where "Pagans" were actually more ready to accept Christ because Christ was already exactly like what they already believed in!
Paganism is way older than Christianity, they are completely different and separate from each other until non-mainline Jews and Christians began blending them together, and that is the premise of this thread.
 Quoting: Salt


Paganism cannot be "Older than Christianity" if the premise of Adamic Christianity is accepted, which we seem to agree it is: God gave his plan to Adam.

It would follow that Christianity is the first religion on the Planet, or at least in this dispensation.

I believe this manner of conversation is in-line with the Premise of your thread.

In point, It was Moses who introduced the prohibition of Idolatry. We cannot be certain that the Pagan beliefs ever had any such restriction, going back to Adam, and that this may be exactly why the re-introduction of Idolatry *from* the Pagans into Post-Messianic Christianity was so easily accpeted.

It was always there in the first place.

That said, the term "Idolatry" is loaded. Is anyone literally worshipping a carving, a picture, sculpture or cast metal "thing" as a God? I don't think even the weakest minded, carnal Hedonist would say that the Idol *is* God but simply acts as a frame of reference for group worship.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
any non idolators out there?

we only need one

just one
 Quoting: idolhater 720559


us mortals have been groomed our entire lives to see an image and then to worship it. it feels really strange at first to start communicating with God while not forming any mental image of Him. it is vitally important to disconnect yourself from any mental image of what God probably looks like.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
the zodiacal influences are a reflection of the actuality/reality of Christ. not the other way around.
 Quoting: Salt

It's both, at the same time IMO. God makes the sky, puts in the Zodiac as his signature, revealing his plans. Zodiac fortells Christ, Christ fulfills Zodiac.


 Quoting: Lada D


agreed. you said it better than i.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Thanks Salt. I've read a little on Pagan influences on Christianity. One of the main points of the book I am slowly reading is that the first Christian Church was held in houses without preachers. The early Christian church spread like lightning across Rome. Why? It was about being active, and it was simple, today we are put to sleep by our preachers and have huge buildings to maintain. There was no massive infrastructure overhead. We are meant to be active in "church"- where church is the people. The people are the church, we are the body. We have lost this and forgotten and that is where the power and influence has died. The holy spirit works through the people, in service we close our mouths and are not active.

The architecture of the church buildings stems from Paganism. This was due to Constantine merging Christianity and Paganism, so Christianity bended to allow more popularity and collectively more unity. Christianity isn't meant to bend we are to obey the law and the guidance of Christ. The great Pagan orators is our basis for the pastor. Again Paganism in the Christian bloodstream.

As well this ties in to worshiping on Sunday instead of Saturday. Instead of worshiping on the Sabbath, "Saturday". Most churches now worship on the day of the "Sun".
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roots of all religions go back to india. dont waste your time salt... go to the root of it all... the root of islam christianity buddhism jews everything.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
It becomes clear, fairly quickly, that Genesis is older than Judaism, which is ironic since it is attributed to Moses. If we are going to be honest, what we would say after careful evaluation is that Moses recieved the Torah from Yahweh, who seems to be retelling already existing stories about Adam, Eve and the generations of man. Genesis itself spells out the origins of Creation epics that echo that of Archeology, essentially that Abraham was from Ur, Sumeria, and the occounts went from Sumeria to Babylon to Egypt.

This is all generously awarded on the foundation that Genesis is actually older than 500 BC or so, and that "Moses" had any real thing to do with it.

Why are the earliest Jewish expectations of Messiah apocryphal, anyway? That's worth a thread.

 Quoting: Lada D


i believe that Moses was the first to actually scribe what had been passed down from Adam thru oral tradition.

the apocryphals were vital pieces of the epic but were politically removed based on two factors 1) historical credibility because author could not be verified, and/or 2) they specifically prophecied the coming Messiah in strict detail.
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roots of all religions go back to india. dont waste your time salt... go to the root of it all... the root of islam christianity buddhism jews everything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24739568


pfffffffttttt.....bwahahahahaaaa
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Here's the thing: Christ had secrets, and Christ mentioned that these secrets would be unveiled in the last days.

The Globalization of information brings all points of view together for scrutiny. Certainly, we cannot reject all new or potentially insightful information or theory out-of-hand simply because it is new.

New Age is channeling, divining, scrying, Chakra molesting, this sort of thing. I'm not saying any of that.

I'm just suggesting that Christianity was established with Adam, passed down, got mixed up a bit, and completely changed color through what became Judaism, to the point where "Pagans" were actually more ready to accept Christ because Christ was already exactly like what they already believed in!

 Quoting: Lada D


we most definitely reject any new info. after scriptures were complete, it is done/sealed/finished. it is clearly specified that there will be NOTHING ADDED OR REMOVED. This is the orthodoxy. Same with OT (even tho the juicy chunks regarding the Messiah were clearly defined in the apocryphals), they are complete, sealed, finished.

the point of this thread is that the message is in-tact. the imagery is not. and any new thing that came from that point on is fasle.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
Paganism cannot be "Older than Christianity" if the premise of Adamic Christianity is accepted, which we seem to agree it is: God gave his plan to Adam.

It would follow that Christianity is the first religion on the Planet, or at least in this dispensation.

I believe this manner of conversation is in-line with the Premise of your thread.

In point, It was Moses who introduced the prohibition of Idolatry. We cannot be certain that the Pagan beliefs ever had any such restriction, going back to Adam, and that this may be exactly why the re-introduction of Idolatry *from* the Pagans into Post-Messianic Christianity was so easily accpeted.

It was always there in the first place.

That said, the term "Idolatry" is loaded. Is anyone literally worshipping a carving, a picture, sculpture or cast metal "thing" as a God? I don't think even the weakest minded, carnal Hedonist would say that the Idol *is* God but simply acts as a frame of reference for group worship.
 Quoting: Lada D


Christianity did not exist until the death of Christ.
While we agree that Christ is eternal, with God, and from the beginning. Christianity did not exist since the beginning.

Paganism came about during the time of Cain and progressed forward from there.
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I'm anti-idolatry too. In it's favour though, the history of christian art makes it more difficult for pagans to erase it, like they try to do with everything Christian.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
I love what you're doing, Salt. You're essentially preaching the Gospel of Lord Yeshua in a way that conspiracy folks can better relate to.

I saw that video you posted a while ago, and I know that those images of 'Jesus' - the ones that look like a long-haired hippie are not correct at all.
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Re: The Idolaters Were Not Mainline Jews or Mainline Christians - Re: Pagan Influences - This data might surprise you.
I love what you're doing, Salt. You're essentially preaching the Gospel of Lord Yeshua in a way that conspiracy folks can better relate to.

I saw that video you posted a while ago, and I know that those images of 'Jesus' - the ones that look like a long-haired hippie are not correct at all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30932679


hf

Christianity is one of the biggest conspiracies alive.

the truth is out there. and it aint nowhere near what you think.

ohyeah

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