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sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2012 07:33 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Sorry AC 29871220 for my late reply - after my last post I went to sleep (at 03:20 German time).

There are two commonly used alignment techniques:
1) Alignment to Polaris
2) Two star drift techniques
Both are described here: [link to www.astro-tom.com]

1) gives you an exact alignment to the north celestial pole (NCP). You can bring it even closer by using a crosshair eyepiece (with scale) and use fainter stars closer to the NCP.
2) (in my opinion) gives only a relative position compared to other stars - but a quick look at polaris would tell you when the NCP would be off.

I own a stationary telescope, set up and aligned years before, correction for the precession every now and then. The error margin is +/- 1.6 arcmin at maximum - far, far below visual recognition.
Last time I corrected for the precession was on occasion of the Thread: Orion is in the Wrong Place!!! (Page 16)

I hope this answers your question.

As i said before: Astronomers (amateur and professional) have stringent criteria and controls on telescope and camera equipment set up for years.
None of them claims the position of the sun is off. Au contraire - they all say the sun is exactly where it is supposed to be.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29911349


Thank you for the reply and info. After reading explanations at the link, if I understand correctly, alignment with Polaris/NCP is a basic first step when using a telescope. This step syncs the telescope with the earth's rotation thus eliminating having to track 'movement' of the sky - which of course is really movement of the earth - while viewing.

It is exactly this basic step used by astronomers that, again if I am understanding properly, would actually eliminate detection of a change in the position of a celestial body in relation to earth. Once a telescope is aligned with NCP the only changes noticeable would be among objects in the sky, not in how an object in the sky relates to earth.

Does that make any sense or am getting it wrong?
Is it not possible that the astronomical measurements being referenced to indicate "everything is where it should be' actually do not address the relationship between the earth and sun being discussed here?

(and thanks to all those with knowledge of astronomy for your patience in reading these ponderings.)
Menow
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12/15/2012 09:58 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...


Even less, in this case. Heh.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


What is your opinion worth..? Heh.
Same as mine...

Don't you feel a little stupid..?
 Quoting: Waterbug


I'm not sure I have been offering only "opinion", here. I have tried to lean toward facts.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


[link to www.katkam.ca]
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2012 10:02 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
This brings up an issue that, without expertise in the field of astronomy, I have been wondering about Hydra. Not sure what your background is or if you can answer this but the question is:

There is much discussion of 'everything being exactly where it is supposed to be'. But when astronomers take measurements on the position of celestial bodies, aren't they made in comparison with other celestial markers? In other words, are the measurements being made of only what's going on in the sky or are they actually accounting for how the sky relates incrementally to earth markers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


As Hydra pointed out, permanently polar aligned telescopes depend on the earth's physical orientation. And indeed, the celestial markers themselves can be measured with respect to the earth's rotation:
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
When done properly, it is clear that the earth's orientation is normal. A similar method can be used to measure the sun's position as well, and indeed I'll give that another go this weekend.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


Thank you for joining in to clarify this Astro. I think I’ve got it now:
The North Celestial Pole (NCP) is the point in the sky around which all the stars appear to rotate. The location of NCP is dependent on the polar axis of earth: if the polar axis of earth changed, the NCP would also change.

Therefore, measuring the NCP against other celestial markers CAN determine if the earth’s polar axis has moved. And your threads “Axial rotation measurement anomaly *Update on pg 21 - Problem Solved*” and “There is no physical "pole shift." (Update: There is still no physical "pole shift.")” do appear to show that NCP is in the same place as always in relation to other celestial bodies. We haven’t had an earth ‘tilt’ or shift’ based on this data.

I also understand that the sun has not moved position in the sky relative to other celestial bodies from your research posted in the threads “The sun is right where it should be in the sky!” and “The sun is still right where it should be in the sky!”.

If, for a moment, we could use Occam’s Razor here and assume that just one of the thousands of people across the planet reporting a change in the sun’s position relative to a fixed earth marker like a window is actually observing accurately, we would indeed have a new and fascinating hypothesis to explore.

Scientists base hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with available scientific theories. Is it not possible, then, that there is data and theory yet to be examined that could explain the observations being made by so many about the sun’s change in position? We know through work like yours Astro what is not causing the phenomenon, but the question remains – what would cause it?
Menow
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12/15/2012 10:10 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm not sure I have been offering only "opinion", here. I have tried to lean toward facts.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Heh. They have an archive of sunset shots. You don't understand the usefulness of that?

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Why, because you are too lazy or inept to search the archive? Spend some time... figure out the format... search for sunset images on the same date in different years.
Menow
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12/15/2012 10:14 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
And this is exactly what astronomers (amateur and professional) do: They have stringent criteria and controls on telescope and camera equipment set up for years.

And none of the astronomers (amateur and professional) claims the position of the sun is off.
Au contraire - they all say the sun is exactly where it is supposed to be.
 Quoting: Hydra


This brings up an issue that, without expertise in the field of astronomy, I have been wondering about Hydra. Not sure what your background is or if you can answer this but the question is:

There is much discussion of 'everything being exactly where it is supposed to be'. But when astronomers take measurements on the position of celestial bodies, aren't they made in comparison with other celestial markers? In other words, are the measurements being made of only what's going on in the sky or are they actually accounting for how the sky relates incrementally to earth markers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

Sorry AC 29871220 for my late reply - after my last post I went to sleep (at 03:20 German time).

There are two commonly used alignment techniques:
1) Alignment to Polaris
2) Two star drift techniques
Both are described here: [link to www.astro-tom.com]

1) gives you an exact alignment to the north celestial pole (NCP). You can bring it even closer by using a crosshair eyepiece (with scale) and use fainter stars closer to the NCP.
2) (in my opinion) gives only a relative position compared to other stars - but a quick look at polaris would tell you when the NCP would be off.

I own a stationary telescope, set up and aligned years before, correction for the precession every now and then. The error margin is +/- 1.6 arcmin at maximum - far, far below visual recognition.
Last time I corrected for the precession was on occasion of the Thread: Orion is in the Wrong Place!!! (Page 16)

I hope this answers your question.

As i said before: Astronomers (amateur and professional) have stringent criteria and controls on telescope and camera equipment set up for years.
None of them claims the position of the sun is off. Au contraire - they all say the sun is exactly where it is supposed to be.


.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29911349


You can momentarily manually align to the existing positions of various stars, but as soon as you would start to track for astrophotography it would all go to shit if Earth's axis had shifted.
Hydra

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12/15/2012 10:23 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Sorry AC 29871220 for my late reply - after my last post I went to sleep (at 03:20 German time).

There are two commonly used alignment techniques:
1) Alignment to Polaris
2) Two star drift techniques
Both are described here: [link to www.astro-tom.com]

1) gives you an exact alignment to the north celestial pole (NCP). You can bring it even closer by using a crosshair eyepiece (with scale) and use fainter stars closer to the NCP.
2) (in my opinion) gives only a relative position compared to other stars - but a quick look at polaris would tell you when the NCP would be off.

I own a stationary telescope, set up and aligned years before, correction for the precession every now and then. The error margin is +/- 1.6 arcmin at maximum - far, far below visual recognition.
Last time I corrected for the precession was on occasion of the Thread: Orion is in the Wrong Place!!! (Page 16)

I hope this answers your question.

As i said before: Astronomers (amateur and professional) have stringent criteria and controls on telescope and camera equipment set up for years.
None of them claims the position of the sun is off. Au contraire - they all say the sun is exactly where it is supposed to be.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29911349


Thank you for the reply and info. After reading explanations at the link, if I understand correctly, alignment with Polaris/NCP is a basic first step when using a telescope. This step syncs the telescope with the earth's rotation thus eliminating having to track 'movement' of the sky - which of course is really movement of the earth - while viewing.

It is exactly this basic step used by astronomers that, again if I am understanding properly, would actually eliminate detection of a change in the position of a celestial body in relation to earth. Once a telescope is aligned with NCP the only changes noticeable would be among objects in the sky, not in how an object in the sky relates to earth.

Does that make any sense or am getting it wrong?
Is it not possible that the astronomical measurements being referenced to indicate "everything is where it should be' actually do not address the relationship between the earth and sun being discussed here?

(and thanks to all those with knowledge of astronomy for your patience in reading these ponderings.)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

Sorry AC 29871220

sometimes I forget, that things I take for granted are not general knowledge.

Thank you for the reply and info. After reading explanations at the link, if I understand correctly, alignment with Polaris/NCP is a basic first step when using a telescope. This step syncs the telescope with the earth's rotation thus eliminating having to track 'movement' of the sky - which of course is really movement of the earth - while viewing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

Of course you have to track the movement of the stars.
If you don't you get a photo like this: [link to apod.nasa.gov]
Usually you use a motor, that exactly compensates Earth rotation.

It is exactly this basic step used by astronomers that, again if I am understanding properly, would actually eliminate detection of a change in the position of a celestial body in relation to earth. Once a telescope is aligned with NCP the only changes noticeable would be among objects in the sky, not in how an object in the sky relates to earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

If you look at the picture mentioned above, the inner most circle is the Pole Star (Polaris).
If Earth axis changes this circle will get bigger (or smaller, depending on the direction).
Since astronomers know the distance from Polaris to the NCP, even a small change would be recognized immediately.

Does that make any sense or am getting it wrong?
Is it not possible that the astronomical measurements being referenced to indicate "everything is where it should be' actually do not address the relationship between the earth and sun being discussed here?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

No, it's not possible.

Imagine a map with cities but no streets. And another map only with streets.
Put the map with the streets on top of the map with the cities and turn it a little bit.
If you now try to get from city A to city B you will not come to city B but will end up in the fields.

As Earth is segmented in circle of latitude and longitude, the sky is segmented in declination (DEC +/-90° scale) and right ascension (RA 24 hour scale).

On the telescopes you have corresponding scales for DEC and RA - at high end telescopes you can set a fraction of a degree or minute.

As every point on Earth has a specific coordinate, every body in the sky has it's coordinate - including the sun.
The only difference is, that you have to correct the sky coordinates by the precession of the equinox (if you use old data, like I did in the Orion thread).

To find an object in the sky you just pick the sky coordinates (from a star chart, star table, star programm, old book), if necessary correct it by the precession and guide the telscopes to the coordinates according to the telescope scales (manually or computer guided).

If you did all the steps properly and the object you are looking for is not in the field of view - then the shit has hit the fan.

But at least until last week (Orion thread) all was ok.
And Dr. Astro announced to do another measurement at the sun in the next days.

(and thanks to all those with knowledge of astronomy for your patience in reading these ponderings.)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Feel free to ask - you are welcome.
(Answer may take some time, as I'm quite busy at the moment.)


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Hydra

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If, for a moment, we could use Occam’s Razor here and assume that just one of the thousands of people across the planet reporting a change in the sun’s position relative to a fixed earth marker like a window is actually observing accurately, we would indeed have a new and fascinating hypothesis to explore.

Scientists base hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with available scientific theories. Is it not possible, then, that there is data and theory yet to be examined that could explain the observations being made by so many about the sun’s change in position? We know through work like yours Astro what is not causing the phenomenon, but the question remains – what would cause it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

May be an explanation:

The precession of the equinoxes is about 1° in 70 something years.
If you built a house 35 years ago and aligned it to e.g. the winter solstice, the sun has changed the position by 0.5° in this 35 years.
So it can happen, that a wall has now sun for some minutes a day that hadn't sun 15 or 20 years ago.

Because of the 2012 hype you now see, the wall has sun.
Of course this didn't happen during the last year, it is so since 10 years or 15 years.
You just didn't recognized it before - may be it was cloudy at that particular day the years before or you didn't go out at the specific time, ...

You are sensitized now by the 2012 hype - you see a wall with sun, that never before had sun (as described before it had sun since 10 years, you just didn't take notice, or clouds or...) - and you think OMG.


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2012 10:44 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Feel free to ask - you are welcome.
(Answer may take some time, as I'm quite busy at the moment.)
 Quoting: Hydra


Hydra your thorough explanations are much appreciated!
Will check out the Orion thread as well.
Menow
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12/15/2012 10:46 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
Menow
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12/15/2012 10:52 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If, for a moment, we could use Occam’s Razor here and assume that just one of the thousands of people across the planet reporting a change in the sun’s position relative to a fixed earth marker like a window is actually observing accurately, we would indeed have a new and fascinating hypothesis to explore.

Scientists base hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with available scientific theories. Is it not possible, then, that there is data and theory yet to be examined that could explain the observations being made by so many about the sun’s change in position? We know through work like yours Astro what is not causing the phenomenon, but the question remains – what would cause it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

May be an explanation:

The precession of the equinoxes is about 1° in 70 something years.
If you built a house 35 years ago and aligned it to e.g. the winter solstice, the sun has changed the position by 0.5° in this 35 years.
So it can happen, that a wall has now sun for some minutes a day that hadn't sun 15 or 20 years ago.

Because of the 2012 hype you now see, the wall has sun.
Of course this didn't happen during the last year, it is so since 10 years or 15 years.
You just didn't recognized it before - may be it was cloudy at that particular day the years before or you didn't go out at the specific time, ...

You are sensitized now by the 2012 hype - you see a wall with sun, that never before had sun (as described before it had sun since 10 years, you just didn't take notice, or clouds or...) - and you think OMG.


.
 Quoting: Hydra


Yeah, but these people are claiming dramatic changes in the track of the sun across the sky. Nothing which could be explained by precession or any other minor shift like that created by large earthquakes- they like to claim that as a cause for what they think they see.
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2012 10:53 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
ok so i was putting the rubbish out for recycling and looked up to see the sun rising over the horizon...beautiful, stood freezing my tits off for a min looking at it when i realised that it was not in the east...

dont all start shouting at once, im probably wrong put it was def south east not east....i know where north is as i had an app on my last phone but i also have an old fashion compas too so ran into look for it and couldnt believe it...even got 17 y/o son to check it as he would understand it better as hes done 3 yrs at cadets and agreed...

please explain the mistake i made to me as i have always been one to poohoo the whole sun moving pole shift stuff but got to say...im more than alittle shocked!!!
 Quoting: Nanna-Ree


You made the mistake in posting this.

bsflag
phoomp

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12/15/2012 10:55 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
You are sensitized now by the 2012 hype - you see a wall with sun, that never before had sun (as described before it had sun since 10 years, you just didn't take notice, or clouds or...) - and you think OMG.
 Quoting: Hydra

Exactly. I find, quite often, that people are generally unaware of their environment. I often point out amazing cloud formations or sundogs to people around me, and they're equally often quite stunned when they suddenly notice something that was in front of their faces for over 20 minutes.

Likewise for movement of the sun and stars over months. Every year around this time of year, my mom comments in surprise at how soon it gets dark. I'm certain if someone said to her that it was a result of 2012 that she would be completely convinced that the sun had always set at 9:30pm and that the sun setting at 5pm was a sign of DOOM.
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 10:57 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Why do star charts have to be updated every few years..?
Which entity is responsible for this updating..?
phoomp

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12/15/2012 11:06 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Why do star charts have to be updated every few years..?
Which entity is responsible for this updating..?
 Quoting: Waterbug

Who says star charts need to be updated every few years?
Menow
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12/15/2012 11:28 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Why do star charts have to be updated every few years..?
Which entity is responsible for this updating..?
 Quoting: Waterbug

Who says star charts need to be updated every few years?
 Quoting: phoomp


It's just one more false premise the 'skytards' try to push. The idea is that there are nefarious characters in charge of this alleged "updating" who match the charts to the new "wrong" sky. It's hilarious!
phoomp

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Why do star charts have to be updated every few years..?
Which entity is responsible for this updating..?
 Quoting: Waterbug

Who says star charts need to be updated every few years?
 Quoting: phoomp


It's just one more false premise the 'skytards' try to push. The idea is that there are nefarious characters in charge of this alleged "updating" who match the charts to the new "wrong" sky. It's hilarious!
 Quoting: Menow 18943200

Yep ... 'cause it's too difficult to walk to the library and check out a chart published 30 years ago.
Menow
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Why do star charts have to be updated every few years..?
Which entity is responsible for this updating..?
 Quoting: Waterbug

Who says star charts need to be updated every few years?
 Quoting: phoomp


It's just one more false premise the 'skytards' try to push. The idea is that there are nefarious characters in charge of this alleged "updating" who match the charts to the new "wrong" sky. It's hilarious!
 Quoting: Menow 18943200

Yep ... 'cause it's too difficult to walk to the library and check out a chart published 30 years ago.
 Quoting: phoomp


They just won't do anything like that. They bray about how all modern sources are connected to the internet and are being "controlled", but when you point out that modern charts match dusty books sitting on library shelves from decades ago, they just fall silent. Rinse-repeat a few weeks/months later... for YEARS now! And people wonder why we have gotten fed up with this nonsense.
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...

Who says star charts need to be updated every few years?
 Quoting: phoomp


It's just one more false premise the 'skytards' try to push. The idea is that there are nefarious characters in charge of this alleged "updating" who match the charts to the new "wrong" sky. It's hilarious!
 Quoting: Menow 18943200

Yep ... 'cause it's too difficult to walk to the library and check out a chart published 30 years ago.
 Quoting: phoomp


They just won't do anything like that. They bray about how all modern sources are connected to the internet and are being "controlled", but when you point out that modern charts match dusty books sitting on library shelves from decades ago, they just fall silent. Rinse-repeat a few weeks/months later... for YEARS now! And people wonder why we have gotten fed up with this nonsense.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200

It just occurred to me that they've been ranting lately about one of the oldest star charts: the Egyptian pyramids. If something had changed recently, how could the Doomies claim a planetary and Orion's belt alignment with the Giza Pyramids while *also* claiming that stellar features such as the Sun and Orion are no longer in the right place?
Menow
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...


It's just one more false premise the 'skytards' try to push. The idea is that there are nefarious characters in charge of this alleged "updating" who match the charts to the new "wrong" sky. It's hilarious!
 Quoting: Menow 18943200

Yep ... 'cause it's too difficult to walk to the library and check out a chart published 30 years ago.
 Quoting: phoomp


They just won't do anything like that. They bray about how all modern sources are connected to the internet and are being "controlled", but when you point out that modern charts match dusty books sitting on library shelves from decades ago, they just fall silent. Rinse-repeat a few weeks/months later... for YEARS now! And people wonder why we have gotten fed up with this nonsense.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200

It just occurred to me that they've been ranting lately about one of the oldest star charts: the Egyptian pyramids. If something had changed recently, how could the Doomies claim a planetary and Orion's belt alignment with the Giza Pyramids while *also* claiming that stellar features such as the Sun and Orion are no longer in the right place?
 Quoting: phoomp


Gee... their various claims contradict each other?! Say it ain't so!!

The guy who claimed Orion was out of place the other day was making some big deal out of the alignment of the pyramids if Earth was flipped 180 degrees. I couldn't figure what it was supposed to mean- just some more woo pseudo-science being parroted, no doubt.
Waterbug

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Precision, eh..?

[link to asd.gsfc.nasa.gov]

[snip]



Data Reduction

Data reduction is the process by which information
from a detector is cleaned and corrected for
instrumental imperfections


It involves the correction of observed events
(“counts”) for detector artifacts, non-linearities, and
other imperfections.

i.e. convert C(I)observed to C(I) for further analysis

Space Astrophysics

Data Products

Once events are cleaned, the event data are turned into data
products for one or more analysis tasks. Data products include:

• photon event files - a table of all detected events, along
with observed parameters (time of arrival, position, energy)

• images - a 2-d matrix giving the number of events in a
given pixel. Can be in spatial coordinates (position in some
coordinate system) or temporal coordinate system.

• spectra - a table giving the histogram of event energies for
a given region of the detector
Waterbug

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
so what are you saying. we are all doomed?
phoomp

User ID: 8227822
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12/15/2012 02:12 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain, in a verifiable way, the OPs claim that the Sun isn't where it's supposed to be?
- where is it?
- where should it be?
Waterbug

User ID: 1295673
United States
12/15/2012 02:13 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain, in a verifiable way, the OPs claim that the Sun isn't where it's supposed to be?
- where is it?
- where should it be?
 Quoting: phoomp


Not an answer.
Waterbug

User ID: 1295673
United States
12/15/2012 02:46 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Since you asked..

Where is the sun supposed to be..?
At what time..? Which time system..?
Before or after variance adjustments..?



[link to www.planetary.org]
[snip]


Adjustment for the Non-Uniformity of Solar Time

We have created clock time so that it proceeds absolutely uniformly -- a second is a second, an hour is an hour, day after day after day. But the rate of solar time turns out to be slightly variable. The interval from one solar noon to the next averages exactly 24 hours over a year, but it can be as much as 30 seconds longer or shorter on any given day. This behavior of the Sun’s apparent motion is caused by the slight non-circularity (1.7%) of the Earth’s orbit and by the 23.4 degree tilt of the Earth’s rotation axis. The net effect is that dial time can differ as much as 15 minutes from clock time (even if you are at the center of your time zone). This adjustment is called the Equation of Time. This is an old usage of the word “equation”; think of it as equating one system of time to another.
phoomp

User ID: 1894576
Canada
12/15/2012 03:10 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain, in a verifiable way, the OPs claim that the Sun isn't where it's supposed to be?
- where is it?
- where should it be?
 Quoting: phoomp


Not an answer.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Of course it isn't. You haven't yet posed a true question. Ask a question relating to the topic at hand (sun in wrong place), and an answer might be possible. Keep throwing up NASA as a strawman, and you'll get strawman answers.
phoomp

User ID: 1894576
Canada
12/15/2012 03:16 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain to us what that paper is discussing? Aside from the fact that you found something that has the words 'NASA' and 'correction' in it?
Waterbug

User ID: 1295673
United States
12/15/2012 03:20 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..


From Cornell
On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon
[link to arxiv.org]
[snip]

ABSTRACT
A recent analysis of a Lunar Laser Ranging (LLR) data record spanning 38.7 yr re-
vealed an anomalous increase of the eccentricitye of the lunar orbit.
The present-day models of the dissipative phenomena
occurring in the interiors of both the Earth and the Moon are not able to explain it.
In this paper, we examine several dynamical effects, not modeled inthe data analysis,
in the framework of long-range modified models of gravity and of the standard New-
tonian/Einsteinian paradigm. It turns out that none of them can accommodate ˙e
meas.
Many of them do not even induce long-term changes ine; other models do, instead,
yield such an effect, but the resulting magnitudes are in disagreement with ˙e
meas. In
particular, the general relativistic gravitomagnetic acceleration of the Moon due to
the Earth’s angular momentum has the right order of magnitude, but the resulting
Lense-Thirring secular effect for the eccentricity vanishes.

A potentially viable Newto-nian candidate would be a trans-Plutonian massive object (Planet X/Nemesis/Tyche)
since it, actually, would affect e with a non-vanishing long-term variation. On the
other hand, the values for the physical and orbital parameters of such a hypothetical
body required to obtain at least the right order of magnitude for ˙e are completely
unrealistic: suffices it to say that an Earth-sized planet would be at 30 au, while a
jovian mass would be at 200 au.

Thus, the issue of finding a satisfactorily explanation
for the anomalous behavior of the Moon’s eccentricity remains open.
Waterbug

User ID: 1295673
United States
12/15/2012 03:22 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain to us what that paper is discussing? Aside from the fact that you found something that has the words 'NASA' and 'correction' in it?
 Quoting: phoomp


I provided a link.
phoomp

User ID: 1894576
Canada
12/15/2012 03:23 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Since you asked..

Where is the sun supposed to be..?
At what time..? Which time system..?
Before or after variance adjustments..?



[link to www.planetary.org]
[snip]


Adjustment for the Non-Uniformity of Solar Time

We have created clock time so that it proceeds absolutely uniformly -- a second is a second, an hour is an hour, day after day after day. But the rate of solar time turns out to be slightly variable. The interval from one solar noon to the next averages exactly 24 hours over a year, but it can be as much as 30 seconds longer or shorter on any given day. This behavior of the Sun’s apparent motion is caused by the slight non-circularity (1.7%) of the Earth’s orbit and by the 23.4 degree tilt of the Earth’s rotation axis. The net effect is that dial time can differ as much as 15 minutes from clock time (even if you are at the center of your time zone). This adjustment is called the Equation of Time. This is an old usage of the word “equation”; think of it as equating one system of time to another.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Excellent example. Sundials and their behaviour are well understood; they reflect the current time, plus or minus 15 minutes. Now you need is to find a sundial that was previously accurate (documented) and is now more than 15 minutes out (documented) and wasn't moved between it's accurate state and it's inaccurate state.