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sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk

 
phoomp

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12/15/2012 03:27 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain to us what that paper is discussing? Aside from the fact that you found something that has the words 'NASA' and 'correction' in it?
 Quoting: phoomp


I provided a link.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Yes, indeed you did. But, I don't believe you understand what it's discussing. And if you don't understand what it's discussing, you can't possibly understand why the word 'correction' is being used in the paper and why NASA would need to use corrections for Point-Source Spreading, Gain, Deadtime, Vignetting, Barycentricism and Data Reduction.

Until you can summarize the article, I believe you simply searched Google for 'NASA' and 'correction' and linked to the first source you found that included both words.

Last Edited by phoomp on 12/15/2012 03:28 PM
phoomp

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12/15/2012 03:32 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..
 Quoting: Waterbug

Again, do you have any understanding of how small (9 ± 3) × 10^-12 yr^-1 is? These are not discrepancies visible to the naked eye.

Last Edited by phoomp on 12/15/2012 03:35 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2012 03:35 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Pure fucking bullshit. The sun is still going up in the east as it always done. My bedroom window is to the east and the sun always goes up right outside it.

Stop making up lies you stupid cunts.
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 03:41 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Pure fucking bullshit. The sun is still going up in the east as it always done. My bedroom window is to the east and the sun always goes up right outside it.

Stop making up lies you stupid cunts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28604046


Actually, cletus... the sun is stationary..relatively speaking.

The Earth spins giving the impression that the sun moves..

But, thanks for the brilliant analysis...

Now, go fuck your goat.
Menow
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12/15/2012 03:44 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..


From Cornell
On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon
[link to arxiv.org]
[snip]

 Quoting: Waterbug


Let's start with: In what way is that article "from Cornell"?
Menow
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12/15/2012 03:47 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Since you asked..

Where is the sun supposed to be..?
At what time..? Which time system..?
Before or after variance adjustments..?



[link to www.planetary.org]
[snip]


Adjustment for the Non-Uniformity of Solar Time

We have created clock time so that it proceeds absolutely uniformly -- a second is a second, an hour is an hour, day after day after day. But the rate of solar time turns out to be slightly variable. The interval from one solar noon to the next averages exactly 24 hours over a year, but it can be as much as 30 seconds longer or shorter on any given day. This behavior of the Sun’s apparent motion is caused by the slight non-circularity (1.7%) of the Earth’s orbit and by the 23.4 degree tilt of the Earth’s rotation axis. The net effect is that dial time can differ as much as 15 minutes from clock time (even if you are at the center of your time zone). This adjustment is called the Equation of Time. This is an old usage of the word “equation”; think of it as equating one system of time to another.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Excellent example. Sundials and their behaviour are well understood; they reflect the current time, plus or minus 15 minutes. Now you need is to find a sundial that was previously accurate (documented) and is now more than 15 minutes out (documented) and wasn't moved between it's accurate state and it's inaccurate state.
 Quoting: phoomp


Let's see if somebody trots out the inane internet blather about the alleged "removal of old sundials".
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 03:48 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..
 Quoting: Waterbug

Again, do you have any understanding of how small (9 ± 3) × 10^-12 yr^-1 is? These are not discrepancies visible to the naked eye.
 Quoting: phoomp


Did I say they were..?

Do you understand the implications of data reduction and the relationship of this process to extreme accuracy..?
Menow
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12/15/2012 03:53 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
What the heck does "extreme accuracy" have to do with the claims being made in this thread about the sun being wildly out of place in the sky?
Menow
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12/15/2012 03:54 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..
 Quoting: Waterbug

Again, do you have any understanding of how small (9 ± 3) × 10^-12 yr^-1 is? These are not discrepancies visible to the naked eye.
 Quoting: phoomp


Did I say they were..?

Do you understand the implications of data reduction and the relationship of this process to extreme accuracy..?
 Quoting: Waterbug


This is called a "thin end of the wedge" argument.
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 03:59 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Let's see if somebody trots out the inane internet blather about the alleged "removal of old sundials".
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Rather... why don't you speak to the accuracy of a celestial observation vis a vis the required accuracy of time interval, when determining adjustments for telescopic observation while using astronomical star charts..?
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 04:09 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..


From Cornell
On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon
[link to arxiv.org]
[snip]

 Quoting: Waterbug


Let's start with: In what way is that article "from Cornell"?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200



On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon by Lorenzo Iorio, Cornell University
[link to www.scribd.com]
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 04:14 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
If you fellas are done with the circle-jerk... maybe you could explain why Nasa must make corrections..
but you don't.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Can you explain to us what that paper is discussing? Aside from the fact that you found something that has the words 'NASA' and 'correction' in it?
 Quoting: phoomp


I provided a link.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Yes, indeed you did. But, I don't believe you understand what it's discussing. And if you don't understand what it's discussing, you can't possibly understand why the word 'correction' is being used in the paper and why NASA would need to use corrections for Point-Source Spreading, Gain, Deadtime, Vignetting, Barycentricism and Data Reduction.

Until you can summarize the article, I believe you simply searched Google for 'NASA' and 'correction' and linked to the first source you found that included both words.
 Quoting: phoomp


Believe what you will... your prerogative.
Menow
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12/15/2012 04:14 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Let's see if somebody trots out the inane internet blather about the alleged "removal of old sundials".
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Rather... why don't you speak to the accuracy of a celestial observation vis a vis the required accuracy of time interval, when determining adjustments for telescopic observation while using astronomical star charts..?
 Quoting: Waterbug


You're in a discussion with phoomp about that. I'll just let you continue with him.
Menow
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12/15/2012 04:15 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..


From Cornell
On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon
[link to arxiv.org]
[snip]

 Quoting: Waterbug


Let's start with: In what way is that article "from Cornell"?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200



On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon by Lorenzo Iorio, Cornell University
[link to www.scribd.com]
 Quoting: Waterbug


In what way is Lorenzo Iorio affiliated with Cornell University?
Menow
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12/15/2012 08:04 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm not sure I have been offering only "opinion", here. I have tried to lean toward facts.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Bump and repeat for AC 29871220

*******************************************

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
Hydra

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12/15/2012 08:14 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Precision, eh..?

[link to asd.gsfc.nasa.gov]

[snip] ...
 Quoting: Waterbug

This article is about the process of eleminating erranous data in astronomical images.
Why do you post only the part of the article, that apparently seems to fit your opinion?
What has this to do with the alleged dislocation of the sun or telescopic measurements of the suns position?

Stay at the topic.



Since you asked..

Where is the sun supposed to be..?
At what time..? Which time system..?
Before or after variance adjustments..?

[link to www.planetary.org]
[snip] ...
 Quoting: Waterbug

This article is how to read the correct time of a sun dial.
Why do you post only the part of the article, that apparently seems to fit your opinion?
What has this to do with the alleged dislocation of the sun or telescopic measurements of the suns position?

Stay at the topic.



See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..

From Cornell
On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon
[link to arxiv.org]
[snip] ...
 Quoting: Waterbug

This article is about an anomalous excentricity of one trillionth in the orbit of the Moon.
What has this to do with the alleged dislocation of the sun or telescopic measurements of the suns position?

Stay at the topic.


Btw: The author of the article himself ruled out, that a PlanetX/Nemesis/Tyche has anything to do with this anomaly:
"On the other hand, the values for the physical and orbital parameters of such a hypothetical body required to obtain at least the right order of magnitude for é are completely unrealistic: suffices it to say that an Earth-sized planet would be at 30 au, while a jovian mass would be at 200 au. Thus, the issue of finding a satisfactorily explanation for the anomalous behavior of the Moon’s eccentricity remains open."


Either you don't understand the articles you post or you simply throw some scientific articles in, in the hope, that you can confuse the common reader because he don't understand it.

If it's the latter, I must say: You are simply an asshole.


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 08:35 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm just a professional musician...
I don't profess to be an expert on any of this shit. Just curious.

The notion that you fools think you know it all reveals much about you.

I'd like to see how you would fare in my world.

lady
Hydra

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12/15/2012 08:47 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm just a professional musician...
I don't profess to be an expert on any of this shit. Just curious.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Then stop to make yourself out to be an expert by quoting scientific papers, that have nothing to do with the thread topic.


The notion that you fools think you know it all reveals much about you.
 Quoting: Waterbug

I neither mentioned nor thought I know all - just a specific part of astronomy.


I'd like to see how you would fare in my world.
 Quoting: Waterbug

Miserable - that's the reason why I never would contribute to a thread about music.


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
SLIPPERY NIPPPS

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12/15/2012 08:51 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
"stood freezing my tits off" Pics or didn't happen!
Anonymous Coward
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12/15/2012 08:52 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm not sure I have been offering only "opinion", here. I have tried to lean toward facts.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Bump and repeat for AC 29871220

*******************************************

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Long day at the office, or do you work from home?

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
Menow
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12/15/2012 09:40 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
See.. the thing is..
It's not solely the Earth which is experiencing anomalies..


From Cornell
On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon
[link to arxiv.org]
[snip]

 Quoting: Waterbug


Let's start with: In what way is that article "from Cornell"?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200



On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon by Lorenzo Iorio, Cornell University
[link to www.scribd.com]
 Quoting: Waterbug


In what way is Lorenzo Iorio affiliated with Cornell University?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Note: No response.

Fact is, Lorenzo Iorio has no affiliation, whatsoever, with Cornell University. Mr Waterbug, who claims to only be disseminating his own original thinking seems to have bit on yet another erroneous internet rumor being tossed around by various and sundry 'Nibtards'.
Waterbug

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12/15/2012 10:11 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...


Let's start with: In what way is that article "from Cornell"?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200



On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon by Lorenzo Iorio, Cornell University
[link to www.scribd.com]
 Quoting: Waterbug


In what way is Lorenzo Iorio affiliated with Cornell University?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Note: No response.

Fact is, Lorenzo Iorio has no affiliation, whatsoever, with Cornell University. Mr Waterbug, who claims to only be disseminating his own original thinking seems to have bit on yet another erroneous internet rumor being tossed around by various and sundry 'Nibtards'.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Note.... Response...

Unlike you... I have better things to do than wait around to pounce on any post made which is directed at me..

I found the questioned article with a general information google search..
I had no reason to doubt the reference to Cornell.
Dr. AstroModerator
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12/15/2012 10:29 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Since you asked..

Where is the sun supposed to be..?
At what time..? Which time system..?
Before or after variance adjustments..?



[link to www.planetary.org]
[snip]


Adjustment for the Non-Uniformity of Solar Time

We have created clock time so that it proceeds absolutely uniformly -- a second is a second, an hour is an hour, day after day after day. But the rate of solar time turns out to be slightly variable. The interval from one solar noon to the next averages exactly 24 hours over a year, but it can be as much as 30 seconds longer or shorter on any given day. This behavior of the Sun’s apparent motion is caused by the slight non-circularity (1.7%) of the Earth’s orbit and by the 23.4 degree tilt of the Earth’s rotation axis. The net effect is that dial time can differ as much as 15 minutes from clock time (even if you are at the center of your time zone). This adjustment is called the Equation of Time. This is an old usage of the word “equation”; think of it as equating one system of time to another.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Fixed it for you. So you don't understand what the equation of time is, I get it, but I will measure the sun's position astrometrically so the equation of time is irrelevant; I'm not measuring the sun by "timing" it, I'm measuring the sun's position on the celestial sphere directly. Tomorrow afternoon if the weather allows, I will measure the sun's position and see if it is where it should be.
astrobanner2
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12/15/2012 10:31 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Bump and repeat for AC 29871220

*******************************************

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Long day at the office, or do you work from home?

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30001585


Hahaha, how'd that shit work out for you?
astrobanner2
Menow
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12/15/2012 11:10 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...



On the anomalous secular increase of the eccentricity of the orbit of the Moon by Lorenzo Iorio, Cornell University
[link to www.scribd.com]
 Quoting: Waterbug


In what way is Lorenzo Iorio affiliated with Cornell University?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Note: No response.

Fact is, Lorenzo Iorio has no affiliation, whatsoever, with Cornell University. Mr Waterbug, who claims to only be disseminating his own original thinking seems to have bit on yet another erroneous internet rumor being tossed around by various and sundry 'Nibtards'.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Note.... Response...

Unlike you... I have better things to do than wait around to pounce on any post made which is directed at me..

I found the questioned article with a general information google search..
I had no reason to doubt the reference to Cornell.

 Quoting: Waterbug


Making my point exactly. The internet is quite literally 'infected' with misrepresented data erroneously supporting the Nibiru hoax. People who have very low standards for evidence and few critical thinking skills grab any shred which they see might support their beliefs and pass it on. Many times they misunderstand what is contained in an article and embellish upon it, because it SOUNDS GOOD to them, before passing it along. Then the new and 'better' version of the story is picked up and repeated as if it was factual when many times it actually says the exact opposite of what it is represented to say. This Iorio paper is a perfect example of that. The original paper by Iorio actually discourages the notion of a Nibiru, but that bit is roundly ignored by those who's only interest is finding ways to support the Nibiru/Planet X story. It SOUNDS good to say that CORNELL University is saying that there is something "wrong" with the moon's orbit, so that's what the believers say. There is actually a letter or email from Iorio about this whole nonsense somewhere. Someone wrote to him, telling him how people were misrepresenting his story and he wrote a scathing response about it. Of course, those who believe in Nibiru would never pay any attention to that.
Dr. AstroModerator
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12/16/2012 03:02 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
This brings up an issue that, without expertise in the field of astronomy, I have been wondering about Hydra. Not sure what your background is or if you can answer this but the question is:

There is much discussion of 'everything being exactly where it is supposed to be'. But when astronomers take measurements on the position of celestial bodies, aren't they made in comparison with other celestial markers? In other words, are the measurements being made of only what's going on in the sky or are they actually accounting for how the sky relates incrementally to earth markers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


As Hydra pointed out, permanently polar aligned telescopes depend on the earth's physical orientation. And indeed, the celestial markers themselves can be measured with respect to the earth's rotation:
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
When done properly, it is clear that the earth's orientation is normal. A similar method can be used to measure the sun's position as well, and indeed I'll give that another go this weekend.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


Thank you for joining in to clarify this Astro. I think I’ve got it now:
The North Celestial Pole (NCP) is the point in the sky around which all the stars appear to rotate. The location of NCP is dependent on the polar axis of earth: if the polar axis of earth changed, the NCP would also change.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220

Correct!
Therefore, measuring the NCP against other celestial markers CAN determine if the earth’s polar axis has moved. And your threads “Axial rotation measurement anomaly *Update on pg 21 - Problem Solved*” and “There is no physical "pole shift." (Update: There is still no physical "pole shift.")” do appear to show that NCP is in the same place as always in relation to other celestial bodies. We haven’t had an earth ‘tilt’ or shift’ based on this data.
 Quoting: AC

Bingo!
I also understand that the sun has not moved position in the sky relative to other celestial bodies from your research posted in the threads “The sun is right where it should be in the sky!” and “The sun is still right where it should be in the sky!”.
 Quoting: AC

Three for three!
If, for a moment, we could use Occam’s Razor here and assume that just one of the thousands of people across the planet reporting a change in the sun’s position relative to a fixed earth marker like a window is actually observing accurately, we would indeed have a new and fascinating hypothesis to explore.

Scientists base hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with available scientific theories. Is it not possible, then, that there is data and theory yet to be examined that could explain the observations being made by so many about the sun’s change in position? We know through work like yours Astro what is not causing the phenomenon, but the question remains – what would cause it?
 Quoting: AC

Well let's look at a specific example from recent history. In January 2011, the sun appeared to rise two days earlier than expected in Greenland. This was reported by multiple news sources and appears to be a genuine report. As I said at the time (beating the media by several days - they were all saying it was "ice melting lowering the horizon" which was BS), the sun's apparent position when it is rising or setting is greatly affected by atmospheric refraction. In fact, under normal conditions, atmospheric refraction is half a degree at the horizon and the sun itself is half a degree wide, so every time you see the sun just touching the horizon it is actually completely below the horizon in reality.

The only reason you see it is because of the atmosphere, and because atmospheric refraction rapidly decreases with altitude over the horizon the sun appears "squished" when it is rising or setting (the top of the sun experiences less refraction than the bottom of the sun). Of course, atmospheric refraction depends on atmospheric conditions, so normal conditions do not always apply. It is known that atmospheric conditions at polar locations can cause the sun to appear to rise as early as two weeks, a phenomenon known as Novaya Zemlya. This has been noted as early as 400 years ago:

"In the next place, Gerrit de Veer states explicitly that he and two of his companions "saw the edge of the sun" on the 24th of January, and that on the 27th of that month they "all went forth and saw the sunne in his full round-nesse a little above the horizon"; and again, that on 31st they "went out and saw the sunne shine cleare"; and lastly, on the 8th of February, they "saw the sun rise south-east, and went down south south-west." On the intervening days, the weather being cloudy or otherwise unfavorable, they had no opportunity of observing the sun."

page cliii of "The three voyages of William Barentz to the Arctic regions"

That was 400 years ago, and at de Veer's location, 75 degrees 45 minutes north latitude, the sun's upper edge wasn't even supposed to be seen until February 9th.

This is why I make my measurements of the Sun's position relative to the stars and with the Sun at least a few degrees above the horizon; to eliminate the effect of atmospheric refraction as a variable. I'm interested in showing that the sun is not out of place either relative to the stars and that the stars themselves (and by extension the sun) are not out of place relative to our axis of rotation. Abnormally high levels of atmospheric refraction can cause reports like the one in Greenland. Compared to the historical account, the incident in 2011 was actually mild.

Whether or not the incidence of Novaya Zemlya is increasing in frequency is another question, but I do not believe there is enough data yet to say for certain one way or another. I leave that to the weather experts to figure out, but it is at least consistent with anecdotal reports of "increased twilight" at polar locations as well as the Inuit thinking the earth is tilting because sunrise didn't occur exactly when/where they expected it to on the horizon. What I can conclude is that it was another case of Novaya Zemlya, not a case of the sun actually being "out of place" in the sky in any physical sense. Sadly, that's not exciting enough for GLP, so I was almost universally rejected even though I called it days before the media, and in fact the "mainstream conclusion" actually changed from the ice melting BS to exactly what I said days later.
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Waterbug

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12/16/2012 07:09 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
So indigenous people of the far north can't tell exactly when the sun is rising or setting..?

Mmkay..

I'll be sure to tell my Northern Cree uncle.
He'll get a good laugh about that...
Hydra

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12/16/2012 07:52 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
So indigenous people of the far north can't tell exactly when the sun is rising or setting..?

Mmkay..

I'll be sure to tell my Northern Cree uncle.
He'll get a good laugh about that...
 Quoting: Waterbug

Dyslexic?

Hint: Read it again - slowly, word by word:

Well let's look at a specific example from recent history. In January 2011, the sun appeared to rise two days earlier than expected in Greenland. This was reported by multiple news sources and appears to be a genuine report. As I said at the time (beating the media by several days - they were all saying it was "ice melting lowering the horizon" which was BS), the sun's apparent position when it is rising or setting is greatly affected by atmospheric refraction. In fact, under normal conditions, atmospheric refraction is half a degree at the horizon and the sun itself is half a degree wide, so every time you see the sun just touching the horizon it is actually completely below the horizon in reality.

The only reason you see it is because of the atmosphere, and because atmospheric refraction rapidly decreases with altitude over the horizon the sun appears "squished" when it is rising or setting (the top of the sun experiences less refraction than the bottom of the sun). Of course, atmospheric refraction depends on atmospheric conditions, so normal conditions do not always apply. It is known that atmospheric conditions at polar locations can cause the sun to appear to rise as early as two weeks, a phenomenon known as Novaya Zemlya. This has been noted as early as 400 years ago:

"In the next place, Gerrit de Veer states explicitly that he and two of his companions "saw the edge of the sun" on the 24th of January, and that on the 27th of that month they "all went forth and saw the sunne in his full round-nesse a little above the horizon"; and again, that on 31st they "went out and saw the sunne shine cleare"; and lastly, on the 8th of February, they "saw the sun rise south-east, and went down south south-west." On the intervening days, the weather being cloudy or otherwise unfavorable, they had no opportunity of observing the sun."

page cliii of "The three voyages of William Barentz to the Arctic regions"

That was 400 years ago, and at de Veer's location, 75 degrees 45 minutes north latitude, the sun's upper edge wasn't even supposed to be seen until February 9th.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Anonymous Coward
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12/16/2012 08:04 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Well let's look at a specific example from recent history. In January 2011, the sun appeared to rise two days earlier than expected in Greenland. This was reported by multiple news sources and appears to be a genuine report. As I said at the time (beating the media by several days - they were all saying it was "ice melting lowering the horizon" which was BS), the sun's apparent position when it is rising or setting is greatly affected by atmospheric refraction. In fact, under normal conditions, atmospheric refraction is half a degree at the horizon and the sun itself is half a degree wide, so every time you see the sun just touching the horizon it is actually completely below the horizon in reality.

The only reason you see it is because of the atmosphere, and because atmospheric refraction rapidly decreases with altitude over the horizon the sun appears "squished" when it is rising or setting (the top of the sun experiences less refraction than the bottom of the sun). Of course, atmospheric refraction depends on atmospheric conditions, so normal conditions do not always apply. It is known that atmospheric conditions at polar locations can cause the sun to appear to rise as early as two weeks, a phenomenon known as Novaya Zemlya. This has been noted as early as 400 years ago:

"In the next place, Gerrit de Veer states explicitly that he and two of his companions "saw the edge of the sun" on the 24th of January, and that on the 27th of that month they "all went forth and saw the sunne in his full round-nesse a little above the horizon"; and again, that on 31st they "went out and saw the sunne shine cleare"; and lastly, on the 8th of February, they "saw the sun rise south-east, and went down south south-west." On the intervening days, the weather being cloudy or otherwise unfavorable, they had no opportunity of observing the sun."

page cliii of "The three voyages of William Barentz to the Arctic regions"

That was 400 years ago, and at de Veer's location, 75 degrees 45 minutes north latitude, the sun's upper edge wasn't even supposed to be seen until February 9th.

This is why I make my measurements of the Sun's position relative to the stars and with the Sun at least a few degrees above the horizon; to eliminate the effect of atmospheric refraction as a variable. I'm interested in showing that the sun is not out of place either relative to the stars and that the stars themselves (and by extension the sun) are not out of place relative to our axis of rotation. Abnormally high levels of atmospheric refraction can cause reports like the one in Greenland. Compared to the historical account, the incident in 2011 was actually mild.

Whether or not the incidence of Novaya Zemlya is increasing in frequency is another question, but I do not believe there is enough data yet to say for certain one way or another. I leave that to the weather experts to figure out, but it is at least consistent with anecdotal reports of "increased twilight" at polar locations as well as the Inuit thinking the earth is tilting because sunrise didn't occur exactly when/where they expected it to on the horizon. What I can conclude is that it was another case of Novaya Zemlya, not a case of the sun actually being "out of place" in the sky in any physical sense. Sadly, that's not exciting enough for GLP, so I was almost universally rejected even though I called it days before the media, and in fact the "mainstream conclusion" actually changed from the ice melting BS to exactly what I said days later.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro

Astro, thank you for the feedback and response to the Occam’s Razor scenario. Your discussion of atmospheric conditions causing refraction is certainly an explanation most layman out here would not be familiar with when it comes to how to sun is perceived to be behaving.

Your speculation about whether or not this Novaya Zemlya is increasing in frequency based on there not currently being enough data available is actually an area of constructive common ground for those of us who have observed these changes in the sun and those who are knowledgeable about astronomy: The anomalies being observed in the sky may in fact be real, but there may also be an explanation yet to be scientifically determined as the cause.

In other words, the ‘skytards’ are not collectively crazy or suffering from poor memory; and likewise, the astronomical community’s assertion that all is as it always has been in the sky is also valid. We do need to acknowledge and explore the empirical observations but with a measured scientific approach using the best available data – especially when it comes to the possibility of imminent planetary ‘doom’.

Back in middle school, a chemistry teacher once said something that still rings true: The more a good scientist discovers, the more he realizes how much is undiscovered.
phoomp

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12/16/2012 10:03 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
So indigenous people of the far north can't tell exactly when the sun is rising or setting..?

Mmkay..

I'll be sure to tell my Northern Cree uncle.
He'll get a good laugh about that...
 Quoting: Waterbug

This game is fun.

*My* Northern Cree uncle accepts the scientific explanation and admits that indigenous knowledge often gets things wrong.

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