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sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk

 
phoomp

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12/16/2012 10:22 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk

We do need to acknowledge and explore the empirical observations but with a measured scientific approach using the best available data – especially when it comes to the possibility of imminent planetary ‘doom’.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670

This. The problem with the skytards is that they often don't properly observe and document their claims. This results in a Chicken Little scenario, where 99% of the claims that the sky is falling are, indeed, the result of poor memory and not actually looking skyward until one of their friends links to a GLP thread in Facebook and they pay attention to the sky for the first time in years and suddenly realize that, "you're right, the sun IS farther south than I remember, because I assume that the sun always rises due east".

Occam's Razor tells us that the explanation which makes the least assumptions is likely the most true.
Hydra

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12/16/2012 11:05 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...
In other words, the ‘skytards’ are not collectively crazy or suffering from poor memory; and likewise, the astronomical community’s assertion that all is as it always has been in the sky is also valid. We do need to acknowledge and explore the empirical observations but with a measured scientific approach using the best available data – especially when it comes to the possibility of imminent planetary ‘doom’.
...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670

...
The problem with the skytards is that they often don't properly observe and document their claims. This results in a Chicken Little scenario, where 99% of the claims that the sky is falling are, indeed, the result of poor memory and not actually looking skyward until one of their friends links to a GLP thread in Facebook and they pay attention to the sky for the first time in years and suddenly realize that, "you're right, the sun IS farther south than I remember, because I assume that the sun always rises due east".
...
 Quoting: phoomp

Let me pick up my post from two pages ago: Thread: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk (Page 7)

Let's say "Sun-Tard" (no offensive meaning in this context) buys a house, almost aligned to the winter solstice, in 1977.
No sun in the bedroom.
Because of the (natural) precession of the eqinoxes the sun slowly moves it's position in the sky be a little less than 1 arcsec per year.

Dec. 15, 2002 - 16:30: Because of the suns movement (precession) the bedroom gets a first glimps of sunlight for a split second - "Sun-Tard" thinks, it is a sun beam reflected at the windscreen of a car driving by.
Dec. 15, 2003 - 16:30: It is cloudy - no sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2004 - 16:30: "Sun-tard" is still in the office - can't see the sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2005 - 16:30: Cloudy again - no sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2006 - 16:30: "Sun-Tard" is out for Christmas shopping - can't see the sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2007 - 16:30: "Sun-Tard" is in the livingroom for a tee - can't see the sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2008 - 16:30: It is cloudy - no sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2009 - 16:30: It is cloudy - no sunlight in the bedroom.
Dec. 15, 2010 - 16:30: "Sun-Tard" goes to the bedroom - "Oh funny, sun in the bedroom".
Dec. 15, 2011 - 16:30: It is cloudy - no sunlight in the bedroom - but Mayan doom is starting to flood the internet.
Dec. 15, 2012 - 16:30: "Sun-Tard" is ill, resting in the bedroom - sees the sun in his bedroom.
"OMG - I never saw the sun in my bedroom before - DOOM, end of the world, Nibiru is near, poleshift, ...)

"Sun-Tard" is right: He never (deliberately) saw this before (I assume that "It never happened before" has the same meaning) - see above.
And astronomers are right: The sun is where it is supposed to be.

The bad thing is: Because of the 2012 hype the majority of the Sun-Tards don't even consider this possibility - it would destroy their believe of the impending DOOM.

.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Menow
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12/16/2012 11:06 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Well let's look at a specific example from recent history. In January 2011, the sun appeared to rise two days earlier than expected in Greenland. This was reported by multiple news sources and appears to be a genuine report. As I said at the time (beating the media by several days - they were all saying it was "ice melting lowering the horizon" which was BS), the sun's apparent position when it is rising or setting is greatly affected by atmospheric refraction. In fact, under normal conditions, atmospheric refraction is half a degree at the horizon and the sun itself is half a degree wide, so every time you see the sun just touching the horizon it is actually completely below the horizon in reality.

The only reason you see it is because of the atmosphere, and because atmospheric refraction rapidly decreases with altitude over the horizon the sun appears "squished" when it is rising or setting (the top of the sun experiences less refraction than the bottom of the sun). Of course, atmospheric refraction depends on atmospheric conditions, so normal conditions do not always apply. It is known that atmospheric conditions at polar locations can cause the sun to appear to rise as early as two weeks, a phenomenon known as Novaya Zemlya. This has been noted as early as 400 years ago:

"In the next place, Gerrit de Veer states explicitly that he and two of his companions "saw the edge of the sun" on the 24th of January, and that on the 27th of that month they "all went forth and saw the sunne in his full round-nesse a little above the horizon"; and again, that on 31st they "went out and saw the sunne shine cleare"; and lastly, on the 8th of February, they "saw the sun rise south-east, and went down south south-west." On the intervening days, the weather being cloudy or otherwise unfavorable, they had no opportunity of observing the sun."

page cliii of "The three voyages of William Barentz to the Arctic regions"

That was 400 years ago, and at de Veer's location, 75 degrees 45 minutes north latitude, the sun's upper edge wasn't even supposed to be seen until February 9th.

This is why I make my measurements of the Sun's position relative to the stars and with the Sun at least a few degrees above the horizon; to eliminate the effect of atmospheric refraction as a variable. I'm interested in showing that the sun is not out of place either relative to the stars and that the stars themselves (and by extension the sun) are not out of place relative to our axis of rotation. Abnormally high levels of atmospheric refraction can cause reports like the one in Greenland. Compared to the historical account, the incident in 2011 was actually mild.

Whether or not the incidence of Novaya Zemlya is increasing in frequency is another question, but I do not believe there is enough data yet to say for certain one way or another. I leave that to the weather experts to figure out, but it is at least consistent with anecdotal reports of "increased twilight" at polar locations as well as the Inuit thinking the earth is tilting because sunrise didn't occur exactly when/where they expected it to on the horizon. What I can conclude is that it was another case of Novaya Zemlya, not a case of the sun actually being "out of place" in the sky in any physical sense. Sadly, that's not exciting enough for GLP, so I was almost universally rejected even though I called it days before the media, and in fact the "mainstream conclusion" actually changed from the ice melting BS to exactly what I said days later.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro

Astro, thank you for the feedback and response to the Occam’s Razor scenario. Your discussion of atmospheric conditions causing refraction is certainly an explanation most layman out here would not be familiar with when it comes to how to sun is perceived to be behaving.

Your speculation about whether or not this Novaya Zemlya is increasing in frequency based on there not currently being enough data available is actually an area of constructive common ground for those of us who have observed these changes in the sun and those who are knowledgeable about astronomy: The anomalies being observed in the sky may in fact be real, but there may also be an explanation yet to be scientifically determined as the cause.

In other words, the ‘skytards’ are not collectively crazy or suffering from poor memory; and likewise, the astronomical community’s assertion that all is as it always has been in the sky is also valid. We do need to acknowledge and explore the empirical observations but with a measured scientific approach using the best available data – especially when it comes to the possibility of imminent planetary ‘doom’.

Back in middle school, a chemistry teacher once said something that still rings true: The more a good scientist discovers, the more he realizes how much is undiscovered.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670


Not to butt in, but the claims of anomalous position of sunset being made by 'skytards' are WAY beyond the scale of any possible refraction effects. You, and many others, don't seem to grasp that their claim is not based on WHAT THEY ARE OBSERVING NOW, per se- their claims are based on WHAT THEY CLAIM TO REMEMBER.
Anonymous Coward
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12/16/2012 11:09 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
ok so i was putting the rubbish out for recycling and looked up to see the sun rising over the horizon...beautiful, stood freezing my tits off for a min looking at it when i realised that it was not in the east...

dont all start shouting at once, im probably wrong put it was def south east not east....i know where north is as i had an app on my last phone but i also have an old fashion compas too so ran into look for it and couldnt believe it...even got 17 y/o son to check it as he would understand it better as hes done 3 yrs at cadets and agreed...

please explain the mistake i made to me as i have always been one to poohoo the whole sun moving pole shift stuff but got to say...im more than alittle shocked!!!
 Quoting: Nanna-Ree


Ive noticed it as well, our garden at the back faces the east and front the west.

In the Winter the sun normally sets way over to the west and it's setting in the southwest and rising far more south east.

It looks as though the earths tilt has changed MORE for "winter solstice"
Anonymous Coward
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12/16/2012 11:11 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
ok so i was putting the rubbish out for recycling and looked up to see the sun rising over the horizon...beautiful, stood freezing my tits off for a min looking at it when i realised that it was not in the east...

dont all start shouting at once, im probably wrong put it was def south east not east....i know where north is as i had an app on my last phone but i also have an old fashion compas too so ran into look for it and couldnt believe it...even got 17 y/o son to check it as he would understand it better as hes done 3 yrs at cadets and agreed...

please explain the mistake i made to me as i have always been one to poohoo the whole sun moving pole shift stuff but got to say...im more than alittle shocked!!!
 Quoting: Nanna-Ree


Ive noticed it as well, our garden at the back faces the east and front the west.

In the Winter the sun normally sets way over to the west and it's setting in the southwest and rising far more south east.

It looks as though the earths tilt has changed MORE for "winter solstice"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19706474



BTW Im in the NORTH WEST of the UK
Anonymous Coward
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12/16/2012 11:13 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Its in the correct place OP. I would be worried if it was rising in the direct east like in summer :)
 Quoting: Blue Skies


I think its the opposite, the sun isn't rising as high as it normally does and it's further south in winter for us northerners.

It isn't rising and setting in the same places it normally does, it's further south which infers a greater tilt north for us.
Anonymous Coward
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12/16/2012 11:13 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Its in the correct place OP. I would be worried if it was rising in the direct east like in summer :)
 Quoting: Blue Skies


I think its the opposite, the sun isn't rising as high as it normally does and it's further south in winter for us northerners.

It isn't rising and setting in the same places it normally does, it's further south which infers a greater tilt north for us.
Menow
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12/16/2012 11:49 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Its in the correct place OP. I would be worried if it was rising in the direct east like in summer :)
 Quoting: Blue Skies


I think its the opposite, the sun isn't rising as high as it normally does and it's further south in winter for us northerners.

It isn't rising and setting in the same places it normally does, it's further south which infers a greater tilt north for us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19706474


No, what it implies is that you aren't all that observant and that your memory is faulty. Do you have ANY photos from this time in previous years which would back up your memory? No? Didn't think so.
Menow
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12/16/2012 11:52 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
ok so i was putting the rubbish out for recycling and looked up to see the sun rising over the horizon...beautiful, stood freezing my tits off for a min looking at it when i realised that it was not in the east...

dont all start shouting at once, im probably wrong put it was def south east not east....i know where north is as i had an app on my last phone but i also have an old fashion compas too so ran into look for it and couldnt believe it...even got 17 y/o son to check it as he would understand it better as hes done 3 yrs at cadets and agreed...

please explain the mistake i made to me as i have always been one to poohoo the whole sun moving pole shift stuff but got to say...im more than alittle shocked!!!
 Quoting: Nanna-Ree


Ive noticed it as well, our garden at the back faces the east and front the west.

In the Winter the sun normally sets way over to the west and it's setting in the southwest and rising far more south east.

It looks as though the earths tilt has changed MORE for "winter solstice"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19706474


No, it looks as though you don't really know where the sun sets this time of year.

All you have to do to prove your claim is to set up a camera and tripod and capture a vid or series of stills over an hour or so of the northern sky showing that Polaris is not in its normal location right near the center of rotation of the northern sky. We look forward to your doing that.
Waterbug

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12/16/2012 12:40 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yes, my uncle is a Northern Cree.
He lives in Waskaganish.

He is a high-ranking official in the secretariat of the World Council of Indigenous Peoples.
He travels and meets with indigenous people all over the world.
My aunt went to school with him. They married after graduating high school.

He just might know a little more about the north than a piss-ant poster on GLP who never gets out of mommy's basement.

You see, where I grew up in Quebec, native children from the far north were shipped in for high school, due to the dearth of educational facilities in the native communities.
They were boarded with local families.
Menow
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12/16/2012 01:27 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yes, my uncle is a Northern Cree.
He lives in Waskaganish.

He is a high-ranking official in the secretariat of the World Council of Indigenous Peoples.
He travels and meets with indigenous people all over the world.
My aunt went to school with him. They married after graduating high school.

He just might know a little more about the north than a piss-ant poster on GLP who never gets out of mommy's basement.

You see, where I grew up in Quebec, native children from the far north were shipped in for high school, due to the dearth of educational facilities in the native communities.
They were boarded with local families.
 Quoting: Waterbug


"He just might know a little more about the north than a piss-ant poster on GLP who never gets out of mommy's basement."


Of course that is not an accurate assessment of the people who are debunking this nonsense. That's all you people have, in the end, is mischaracterization, ad hom and impossibly vast conspiracy theories.
Menow
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12/16/2012 01:55 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm not sure I have been offering only "opinion", here. I have tried to lean toward facts.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Bump and repeat for AC 29871220

*******************************************

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Welp... as usual, no response at all from skytards to a resource which shows the western horizon at sunset each day over several years. I even spelled out how to find relevant images.

One more time: [link to www.katkam.ca]
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12/16/2012 04:50 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
To Hydra and phoomp: In quoting my response to Astro to support your position about faulty memory and 2012 fear you are misdirected, as the point I was making is just the opposite. To clarify, both the empirical observations made by people at large and the astrological community have validity on the issue of sun anomalies and both should be considered when examining the phenomenon. This is the common ground where the potential for scientific understanding, and perhaps even discovery, lies.

Additionally, Occam’s Razor does not support your conclusion about poor memory and doom fear but actually refutes it: if the explanation with the least assumptions is the one most likely to be true, then assuming that the thousands of people who have observed sun anomalies all - each and every one of them - have deficient memory and/or end-of-the-world musings fails the theory. Assuming that at least SOME of those people have sufficient memory to make an accurate observation is a much simpler assumption and adheres to Occam’s Razor.

Menow: The one and only link you have posted over and over was reviewed and you already received a response from me about it. Your baiting is best suited for another pond.
Anonymous Coward
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12/16/2012 04:59 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Post below from AC 29871220 - AC number changed since this morning.

To Hydra and phoomp: In quoting my response to Astro to support your position about faulty memory and 2012 fear you are misdirected, as the point I was making is just the opposite. To clarify, both the empirical observations made by people at large and the astrological community have validity on the issue of sun anomalies and both should be considered when examining the phenomenon. This is the common ground where the potential for scientific understanding, and perhaps even discovery, lies.

Additionally, Occam’s Razor does not support your conclusion about poor memory and doom fear but actually refutes it: if the explanation with the least assumptions is the one most likely to be true, then assuming that the thousands of people who have observed sun anomalies all - each and every one of them - have deficient memory and/or end-of-the-world musings fails the theory. Assuming that at least SOME of those people have sufficient memory to make an accurate observation is a much simpler assumption and adheres to Occam’s Razor.

Menow: The one and only link you have posted over and over was reviewed and you already received a response from me about it. Your baiting is best suited for another pond.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670
Menow
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12/16/2012 05:49 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
if the explanation with the least assumptions is the one most likely to be true, then assuming that the thousands of people who have observed sun anomalies all -
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670


Sorry? "Thousands"? Where did you get that number? The various people going on about this don't even agree with each other on specifics and funny how it only comes up around the solstices.

Menow: The one and only link you have posted over and over was reviewed and you already received a response from me about it. Your baiting is best suited for another pond.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670


"Baiting"? I'm pointing to an archive of sunset shots. How is that "baiting?

You "reviewed" my link? Was yours the post declaring that there was nothing on the KatKam site which related to the discussion? If so, that is a blatant lie. I even went on to specify how to find the relevant photos in the archive.
Menow
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12/16/2012 05:58 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
I'm not sure I have been offering only "opinion", here. I have tried to lean toward facts.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


OK- here was your "review" of my offering. Does lying come this easily to you? I even made it easy by showing you specifically how to search the archive for relevant data. Is "dodge" your middle name, or what?

REPEAT!

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
Dr. Astro
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12/16/2012 07:37 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
In other words, the ‘skytards’ are not collectively crazy or suffering from poor memory;
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670


The vast majority do suffer either from poor memory or a poor understanding of how the sky should move. The OP of this thread is a perfect example; the sun SHOULD be rising in the south east from the UK at this time of year, not east. I gave you a specific example of a case where the sun can appear to the layman to be out of place without it actually being out of place, but such incidents are the minority around here. Most GLP'ers who post about the sun being out place actually are like the OP and are quite wrong and simply never before noticed that it's normal for the sun to have that position. There are exceptions, like the one I mentioned, but mostly posters like the OP simply need a better understanding of basic astronomy and the manner in which the sun moves through the celestial sphere over the course of a year.
astrobanner2
Dr. Astro
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12/16/2012 07:39 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
So indigenous people of the far north can't tell exactly when the sun is rising or setting..?

Mmkay..

I'll be sure to tell my Northern Cree uncle.
He'll get a good laugh about that...
 Quoting: Waterbug


Please print off my post and show him what I actually said, instead of your bizarre and twisted interpretation of it.
astrobanner2
phoomp

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12/16/2012 08:49 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Additionally, Occam’s Razor does not support your conclusion about poor memory and doom fear but actually refutes it: if the explanation with the least assumptions is the one most likely to be true, then assuming that the thousands of people who have observed sun anomalies all - each and every one of them - have deficient memory and/or end-of-the-world musings fails the theory. Assuming that at least SOME of those people have sufficient memory to make an accurate observation is a much simpler assumption and adheres to Occam’s Razor.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4906670

And, here is the fundamental problem with invoking Occam's Razor: *everyone* assumes the assumptions behind *their* conclusion are far simpler than the conclusion they don't like.

Personally, I feel that the assumption that people are being mislead into believing that the Sun is in the wrong place is far more likely than the assumption that the Sun has moved or the tilt of our planet has changed (usually with the accompanying assumption the Nibiru is involved).
André 11:11
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12/16/2012 10:26 PM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yeap ! The funcking and stupid Planet X debunkers still on duty here.

Why are you ignoring spiritual evolution? Because you just belong to the involutive forces. You cannot simply evoluate.

Anyway, you may learn the purification Cosmic Law and the sintony Cosmic Law as a start towards the evolution process.
Hydra

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12/17/2012 03:27 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yeap ! The funcking and stupid Planet X debunkers still on duty here.

Why are you ignoring spiritual evolution? Because you just belong to the involutive forces. You cannot simply evoluate.

Anyway, you may learn the purification Cosmic Law and the sintony Cosmic Law as a start towards the evolution process.
 Quoting: André 11:11 30100678


Four days to go until Dec. 21.

You will end up likes this, too:

swfpole swfnibi


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Waterbug

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12/17/2012 03:51 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yeap ! The funcking and stupid Planet X debunkers still on duty here.

Why are you ignoring spiritual evolution? Because you just belong to the involutive forces. You cannot simply evoluate.

Anyway, you may learn the purification Cosmic Law and the sintony Cosmic Law as a start towards the evolution process.
 Quoting: André 11:11 30100678


Four days to go until Dec. 21.

You will end up likes this, too:

swfpole swfnibi


.
 Quoting: Hydra


Hmm.. You are a closed-minded little twerp....

You should go to this site and tell them they are lying about this.... call them niburu-tards and idiots.

Because.... you have all the answers.


Sol's Birth Nebula and Star Cluster

[link to www.solstation.com]

[snip]

On October 4, 2006, a team of astronomers announced the finding of evidence that Sol formed in a fragment (Solar nebula) of a giant molecular cloud (e.g., the Orion Cloud) of gas and dust that gave birth to a large open star cluster with hundreds to thousands of members. According to astronomer Leslie Looney, the evidence for Sol's stellar sisters was found in decayed particles from radioactive isotopes of iron trapped in meteorites, which can be studied as fossil traces of early Solar System conditions. The isotopic evidence indicates that a supernova from a massive star with the mass of at least 20 Solar-masses (probably a very rare, hot, and blue O-type star like Anitak Aa) exploded near the early Sun when it formed 4.6 billion years ago.

Measured abundances of the isotopic particle species indicate that the supernova was located only about 0.32 to 5.22 light-years from Sol. Where there are supernovae or any massive star, there should have been hundreds to thousands of low-mass stars like the Sun that were born of the same nebula of gas and dust. Due to insufficient gravitational pull, Sol's surrounding cluster of stars dispersed over the past five billion years as they moved around the developing Milky Way galaxy, and members escaped the cluster due to velocity changes from close encounters with each other, tidal forces in the galactic gravitational field, and encounters with field stars and interstellar clouds crossing their way (press release; and Looney et al, 2006).

Planetary System

As of November 8, 2010, the Solar System is known to have eight major planets and numerous minor planetary bodies, including some relatively large dwarf planets.

Sol b?

In 1999, U.K. and U.S. astronomers independently reported finding evidence that one or more large planets or brown dwarfs gravitationally bound to our Sun, Sol may be perturbing the orbits of two different groups of long-period comets at the outer reaches of the Oort Cloud into the inner Solar System with the assistance of galactic tidal forces. Calculations in 1999 by John B. Murray of the United Kingdom focus on a smaller region centered around Constellation Delphinus at an estimated distance of 32,000 AUs (John B. Murray, 1999).

The U.S. team (led by John J. Matese) most recently estimated that the substellar object (proposed to be named Tyche, the sister of Nemesis) may have a mass around one to four Jupiter-masses in the innermost region of the outer Oort Cloud, possibly orbiting Sol at around 10,000 to 30,000 AUs depending on its actual mass (Matese et al, 2010; and Lisa Grossman, Wired Science, November 29, 2010).

While some astronomers have speculated that Matese and Murray are being misled by random statistical fluctuations or the past gravitational effects of passing stars, Matese believes that confirmation through direct observation can be achieved by NASA with its Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) satellite.

On May 25, 2011, at the 218th American Astronomical Society Meeting, Ned (Edward L.) Wright, principal investigator of the WISE Mission, noted that Tyche might be detectable as a "possible low-mass brown [dwarf]" in observational data already collected by WISE (now being processed) if it has at least two Jupiter-masses (AAS presentation abstract by Lissauer et al, 2011; and John Matson, blog at Scientific American, May 27, 2011).


The hypothesized object appears to have a mass smaller than one controversial definition for brown dwarfs specifying a minimum mass of at least 13 Jupiters (so that deutrium fusion can be sustained). According to Matese, the objects current location in the outer Oort Cloud suggests that it did not form in Sol's proto-planetary disk.

Hence, either the object formed independently from fragmentation of the original Solar nebula, or the object was ejected from another star system and subsequently captured by the Sun (possibly as early as Sol was born in the crowded environs of its original star-forming cluster).
Hydra

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12/17/2012 07:36 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Four days to go until Dec. 21.

You will end up likes this, too:

swfpole swfnibi

 Quoting: Hydra


Hmm.. You are a closed-minded little twerp....

You should go to this site and tell them they are lying about this.... call them niburu-tards and idiots.

Because.... you have all the answers.


Sol's Birth Nebula and Star Cluster

[link to www.solstation.com]

Measured abundances of the isotopic particle species indicate that the supernova was located only about 0.32 to 5.22 light-years from Sol. Where there are supernovae or any massive star, there should have been hundreds to thousands of low-mass stars like the Sun that were born of the same nebula of gas and dust. Due to insufficient gravitational pull, Sol's surrounding cluster of stars dispersed over the past five billion years as they moved around the developing Milky Way galaxy, and members escaped the cluster due to velocity changes from close encounters with each other, tidal forces in the galactic gravitational field, and encounters with field stars and interstellar clouds crossing their way (press release; and Looney et al, 2006).
 Quoting: Waterbug

[link to www.solstation.com] last updated in 2011

Selective reading or article not understood?

I bolded the part you posted but allegly didn't understand.


In 1999, U.K. and U.S. astronomers independently reported finding evidence that one or more large planets or brown dwarfs gravitationally bound to our Sun, Sol may be perturbing the orbits of two different groups of long-period comets at the outer reaches of the Oort Cloud into the inner Solar System with the assistance of galactic tidal forces. Calculations in 1999 by John B. Murray of the United Kingdom focus on a smaller region centered around Constellation Delphinus at an estimated distance of 32,000 AUs (John B. Murray, 1999).

The U.S. team (led by John J. Matese) most recently estimated that the substellar object (proposed to be named Tyche, the sister of Nemesis) may have a mass around one to four Jupiter-masses in the innermost region of the outer Oort Cloud, possibly orbiting Sol at around 10,000 to 30,000 AUs depending on its actual mass (Matese et al, 2010; and Lisa Grossman, Wired Science, November 29, 2010).
While some astronomers have speculated that Matese and Murray are being misled by random statistical fluctuations or the past gravitational effects of passing stars, Matese believes that confirmation through direct observation can be achieved by NASA with its Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) satellite.

On May 25, 2011, at the 218th American Astronomical Society Meeting, Ned (Edward L.) Wright, principal investigator of the WISE Mission, noted that Tyche might be detectable as a "possible low-mass brown [dwarf]" in observational data already collected by WISE (now being processed) if it has at least two Jupiter-masses (AAS presentation abstract by Lissauer et al, 2011; and John Matson, blog at Scientific American, May 27, 2011).
 Quoting: Waterbug

You really should hold track of what you post. Quoted from your post two days ago:

"A potentially viable Newtonian candidate would be a trans-Plutonian massive object (Planet X/Nemesis/Tyche) since it, actually, would affect e with a non-vanishing long-term variation. On the other hand, the values for the physical and orbital parameters of such a hypothetical body required to obtain at least the right order of magnitude for é are completely unrealistic: suffices it to say that an Earth-sized planet would be at 30 AU, while a jovian mass would be at 200 AU."

Thread: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk (Page 7)

The 30 AU/200 AU hypothesis was ruled out by severel scientists (see quote above) and Matese shifted to 10,000 AU /30,000 AU.
After the release of the complete WISE data in 2012 his new hypothesis was obsolete too.


You realy should stick to your music and stop posting articles or quote from websites you don't understand.
Or read some astronomical books - and above all things understand it.

Or yo will end up like this too:
swfpole swfnibi


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Waterbug

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12/17/2012 11:18 PM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yeah, right.... revised.
What about all of the possible scenarios that no one can rule out with confidence...?

Doesn't really matter what you think you know, does it..?
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2012 01:21 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
and STILL people on this thread saying the sun has 'moved'... for the love of God you can't really be THAT ignorant?
You have a computer.. Google for "Sunrise direction seasons" or variants of such.

Here is a good image for those who seem to have problem with the written word.

[link to apod.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18725862

Very nice pics.....Still will not help. This as been going on for years. I'm just praying that they are a new batch every year. And not the same ones. lol
 Quoting: Blue Skies


Blue skies,

You are Not allowed to post images cuter than the thread.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2012 01:23 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Since you asked..

Where is the sun supposed to be..?
At what time..? Which time system..?
Before or after variance adjustments..?



[link to www.planetary.org]
[snip]


Adjustment for the Non-Uniformity of Solar Time

We have created clock time so that it proceeds absolutely uniformly -- a second is a second, an hour is an hour, day after day after day. But the rate of solar time turns out to be slightly variable. The interval from one solar noon to the next averages exactly 24 hours over a year, but it can be as much as 30 seconds longer or shorter on any given day. This behavior of the Sun’s apparent motion is caused by the slight non-circularity (1.7%) of the Earth’s orbit and by the 23.4 degree tilt of the Earth’s rotation axis. The net effect is that dial time can differ as much as 15 minutes from clock time (even if you are at the center of your time zone). This adjustment is called the Equation of Time. This is an old usage of the word “equation”; think of it as equating one system of time to another.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Fixed it for you. So you don't understand what the equation of time is, I get it, but I will measure the sun's position astrometrically so the equation of time is irrelevant; I'm not measuring the sun by "timing" it, I'm measuring the sun's position on the celestial sphere directly. Tomorrow afternoon if the weather allows, I will measure the sun's position and see if it is where it should be.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


snap
Hydra

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12/18/2012 04:00 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Yeah, right.... revised.
What about all of the possible scenarios that no one can rule out with confidence...?
 Quoting: Waterbug

Sure there are possible scenarios: [link to www.bloomberg.com]

But this thread is about: "Sun in wrong place"


Doesn't really matter what you think you know, does it..?
 Quoting: Waterbug

Right.

How about you?



.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2012 05:34 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
Its in the correct place OP. I would be worried if it was rising in the direct east like in summer :)
 Quoting: Blue Skies


I think its the opposite, the sun isn't rising as high as it normally does and it's further south in winter for us northerners.

It isn't rising and setting in the same places it normally does, it's further south which infers a greater tilt north for us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19706474


No, what it implies is that you aren't all that observant and that your memory is faulty. Do you have ANY photos from this time in previous years which would back up your memory? No? Didn't think so.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


In my case I have 14 years worth of memories to remember that the sun set in the BACK of my house and this year it sets in the front.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2012 05:37 AM
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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...


Statements in lieu of empirical data are hardly facts..
Where is your evidence..?
Please be specific, thorough and cover the preceding 3 years starting.... NOW.
 Quoting: Waterbug


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Bump and repeat for AC 29871220

*******************************************

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Welp... as usual, no response at all from skytards to a resource which shows the western horizon at sunset each day over several years. I even spelled out how to find relevant images.

One more time: [link to www.katkam.ca]
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


We already know your bias, shilltard. Save your fingers for something more useful than typing.
Dr. Astro
Comet Hustler

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12/18/2012 05:37 AM

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Re: sun in wrong place...cant believe im even thinking it...tell me when i made the mistake....uk
...


Waiting for the facts here too, Menow - 3 years of facts instead of repeating your opinion that every single person on the planet who sees sun anomalies has faulty memory. We've visited your infamous link - and it's a page of yet more useless links offering absolutely zero information to address the topic at hand.

Really, Menow, for someone who's spent as much time as you have debunking threads like this on forums - and it seems you have quite the reputation out there - your arsenal is pretty lame.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29871220


Bump and repeat for AC 29871220

*******************************************

One way to search the KatKam archive for useful data is to use this one:

"Archive 2: A series of images captured at the same time of day for a number of consecutive days:"

With that one you can plug in the number of days back to around the summer solstice and find some days when you can see the sun at the horizon. Then add 365 more days to get back to the previous year on the same group of dates, and so on.

Sunset location has been quite consistent over the years on the same date. Now we will see how many of the people posting on this thread who are just SURE the sun has changed location will even acknowledge this resource. From past experience NONE of them will even admit to having looked at that data.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Welp... as usual, no response at all from skytards to a resource which shows the western horizon at sunset each day over several years. I even spelled out how to find relevant images.

One more time: [link to www.katkam.ca]
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


We already know your bias, shilltard. Save your fingers for something more useful than typing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30218778


Bias? It's called evidence, clearly a foreign concept to you.
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