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5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 771675
United States
12/11/2012 05:09 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
...


Actually, that is true. Hypocrites and fakers of the highest order. At least with Republicans you KNOW that you're getting a bunch of batshit reactionary clowns, far-right nutcakes, Nazis. With the Democrats, you get the same thing, except they claim to be something else. So, I say: you are correct!

Obama is easily the best friend the far right ever had. He WILL dismantle the New Deal social programs -- and he is damn near the only person who could! A Republican (and white) could never get away with it. I swear, putting Obama in office was one of the most brilliant moves our Nazi plutocrat overcommanders ever did.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


Umm.. NAZIs were LEFTISTS, dumbass.

NATIONAL SOCIALISTS


Libterd geius [sic] at work again thinking they can write the false narrative.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29635112


Spare me. That is one of the dumbest, most laughable, most thoroughly-discredited idea of all time. Yes, the Nazis called themselves "socialists". So what? People lie all the time. Politicians and political parties lie continually, without ceasing.

Show me some historical evidence that Nazis were in ANY substantive way "leftists". You cannot, because THERE IS NONE. NONE. ZERO. And there is a ton of evidence for the opposite. For example, the Nazis HATED the socialists and communists, and put many of them in the concentration camps, before outlawing their political parties. Just like our modern "conservatives, the Nazis hated communists, liberals, feminists, gays, blacks, etc. And you might recall that the Nazis assembled the greatest military machine of all time, and threw it ALL at the communists in the East, with the purpose of smashing bolshevism and communism for all time, on the Eurasian continent.

Nazis are "leftists", ha! What idiocy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


Nazi's are only considered "right wing" in the context of European politics at that time. In the context of American politics at that time, Nazis were way over on the left not far from the communists in many Americans' minds.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


"Context of European politics", my ass! The Nazis HATED LEFTISTS. HATED COMMUNISTS. WITH A PASSION. Which is why they killed them, abused them, shipped them off to concentration camps, and then launched Operation Barbarossa, the biggest military initiative of all time, with the intention of DESTROYING LEFTISM on the asian land mass for a thousand years. If that doesn't make them right wing, then what the fuck would? Is ANYONE right wing? Anyone at all? How do they qualify? PS: who gives a shit what strange (inconsistent with reality) ideas Americans were thinking at that time? Jeezuz.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 771675
United States
12/11/2012 05:17 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
The reason the Nazis used red in their flags was to attract the the communists to the national socialist party. And guess what? It worked. The socialsts, communists, and nationalists all united, the Nazi's consolidated power and the rest is history.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


GOD you are ignorant. The communists did not "unite" with the Nazis, you ass. They were KILLED by them. Bolshevik communism was thought to be a jewish conspiracy that must be smashed, destroyed, utterly. The Nazis were uncompromising on this point. The Nazis can only be called "socialist" in the same very loose, meaningless sense that all kinds of regimes call themselves "democratic" or "republican". These are just propaganda words, with no meaning. The Nazis had NOTHING in common with communists, and purged anyone with left sympathies from the party back in the late 1920s. READ SOME HISTORY before you blow off your mouth.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28008747
United States
12/11/2012 06:16 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
... Are you stupid? AIDS is a huge problem in both homo and heterosexuals AND in non-drug using and drug using people! Viruses don't have gaydar moran, Fucking Hell dude! go back to school or shut up. Sorry but you know jack shiitt! He is a motherfucker!
...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1530252

Sorry to interrupt your polemic with a fact.

The HI Virus is spread most easily by blood contact. When one gay man sticks his dick up another gay man's asshole, said asshole not being designed to accept hard dicks, some small tears can occur in the skin, and also due to the lack of proper natural lubrication, I suppose one might get tears on the skin of the inserted dick too. Hence blood to blood contact, logically leading to HIV infection if one of the partners already carries the virus and the other does not.

Generally the crazed intemperate tone of your rant is about par for the course when liberals try to address certain opposing arguments.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28008747
United States
12/11/2012 06:29 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
The "National Socialist German Workers' Party" (Nazi) was mainly about "Germany for the Germans" and getting rid of influences that were perceived to be oppressing and interfering with them. (The main group to be fought was Communists. Jews were in there too, perceived as a foreign influence, but not to the same extent, and not purely destructive, as some Jews were even members of the German army at that time.)

Hence it worked, at least until it didn't because the USA stepped in with its huge foot to push back. It worked incredibly well. The trains ran on time, and Germany recovered from the debt, devastation and foreign control that followed WWI.

Socialism where there's some selectivity in who is the "in" group can work. There's quality control, as I see it. Socialism where it's an open checkbook is just a recipe for leakage and dissolution. How could it be otherwise?
Ralph--a house dog

User ID: 25802009
United States
12/11/2012 06:32 PM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
GLPers!!! Stop the madness. It is not between you and other posters, it is between us and the politicians in Washington. They make drunken sailors in Thailand look like Mormons. If you believe for a second that anyone is DC is working in your interest you are completely hoodwinked. Do not tow their line, drink their Koolaid. Go to your state house and tell them to say no to Washington.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16311203


THIS It is the only thing that might have any chance of slowing them down.
"Who decides?"
---Robert A. Heinlein

[link to www.westcoasttruth.com]

"Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night.....Rage, rage against the dying of the light"
----Dylan Thomas
beeches

User ID: 28167778
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12/11/2012 07:10 PM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Way to go Davvi.

Libs = people who look in the mirror and see God.

Conservatives = people who look in the mirror and see people who need God.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good life.
Dr. Lecter

User ID: 24275310
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12/11/2012 07:21 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
the major difference between liberals and conservatives is this:

conservatives tend to believe what they see while liberals tend to see what they believe.

everything these people do is to advance their agenda, and therefore can not be trusted.
Liberal Logic - Demanding that the government stay out of their bedrooms while insisting on taxpayer funded birth control.
Ralph--a house dog

User ID: 25802009
United States
12/11/2012 07:25 PM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
[...snip...]
You are about to be thrown under the bus. The rich fucks don't want to bother picking up your medical tab or paying your social security or fulfilling the pension obligation to you. They used you while they could, and threw you some tasty morsels in order to buy your loyalty: your house (and vacation cottage?), car, boat, etc. You had no objection. You didn't ask where the goodies were coming from (in fact, a lot of it was coming from the sweat and blood of others, elsewhere). They were SUCCESSFUL in buying your loyalty, weren't they? And now you think the goodies will keep on rolling in. You think you're entitled to them. Haha. Sorry to inform you, but you're about to be thrown under the bus. And you probably deserve it. Which is not to say that the rich fucks are right to do what they are doing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


And to that I might add:

In the process of this under-the-bus-throwing, our wonderful "conservatives" will get the "small(er) government" that they say they've been wanting -- but it won't look AT ALL like what they thought it would look like!

"Smaller government" will mean:

-- drastic cuts to social security and medicare,

-- drastic cuts to unemployment, workman's comp, food
stamps, and other essential support for keeping
people from slipping into destitution

-- crumbling infrastructure, power grid failures and
rolling blackouts, impassable roads, etc., etc.,
continually getting worse, for decades

-- failing services of all kinds, failing police
and fire support, rampant crime

-- closed schools, and an ignorant and dysfunctional
population (or MORE so than already exists);
rampant illiteracy

-- decimated or even non-existent middle class,

-- the return of something resembling medieval
feudalism, with the poor (formerly middle-class)
working as serfs for manorial lords

-- more or less everything spiralling downward.

THAT will be the fruit of your anti-big-government faux (Koch brothers) populism, you idiots! You'll GET your small government, all right. And it will be ugly as sin. You'll get smaller government in all the ways that will hurt you, and all the people around you.

If we really wanted smaller government -- as we should have, 50 and 75 years ago -- we would have insisted on NOT allowing the financially ruinous (as well as morally unsound) military/industrial/security complex to be built to begin with. We would have listened to the (WISE) authentic traditional conservatives who urged us NOT to engage in foreign wars. We would have had the sense NOT to create a global empire requiring a vast military and support structures to survive. We would NOT have allowed neo-cons to take over the government and foreign policy. We would NOT have allowed the development of a medical/industrial complex that costs per capita fully THRICE the health care costs of other developed nations. And so on. But we didn't. And now it is too late. Big Government is baked in the cake. To dismantle big government now is to dismantle the entire American way of life, because EVERYONE depends on big government. (Not that dismantling the American way of life is ultimately a bad thing; actually it is a good thing; but in the process it will be ugly.) To dismantle big government now (by "now" I mean over a short period, such as a single generation) is to precipitate a very nasty social and economic implosion, with all the features as on my bullet list above. Ugly as sin, for decades.

Theoretically, we could do it without that ugliness. We could make a collective decision to SLOWLY reduce big government, over many decades. Some intellectuals have suggested this over the years. Seymour Melman comes to mind. He was one of the best scholars of the military/industrial buildup, and he wrote often about the (long, slow) process of economic conversion, going from a permanent war economy to an economy of peace, and human and social development. But alas, no one listened. Everyone was busy spending their handsome paychecks on boats and cottages. And now it is too late.

Theoretically, we could do it without the ugliness, but we won't get the chance. Too late now. We've reached the end of the line. The rest of the world is fed up with us, and the rich fucks don't want to be bothered paying for our bloated "needs".

Of course, the rich fucks LOVE all this anti-big-government activism. Plays directly into their hands! Big government made them rich, but it also made all kinds of promises that they don't want to stick around and pay. So they'll take the riches and let us have our "small government", now. In fact, like the Koch brothers, they'll even devote a few $million (out of petty cash) to create astro-turf anti-big-government groups to pressure congress to dismantle the programs on which the country depends.

They'll take the riches, pack up and move East and South, just as they have been for decades; didn't you notice? All the factories and everything else moving to Mexico, China, India, Vietnam, etc.? They're leaving, and they won't be coming back for many decades, if ever. Why should they? They don't want to be stuck with the tab for your quadruple bypass operation.

Before this is over, you'll be on your knees BEGGING for big government to come back and make things like they were. But then it will be too late. It is already too late.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


Damn. I believe this might really be how it is.

I've always said we should have listened to Eisenhower's warning about the military/industrial complex, to Kennedy's warning about those behind the scene who run the world; been outraged at the real reasons for wars that have killed many of my friends and family, griped about the neocons, laughed at the liberals, hated on totalitarianism, have been active in political issues that support liberty, worked to help the helpless, refused to just roll over and shut up--- all for what?

Those bastards DO owe us; they have used us to get where they are and if most people have been unaware of the origins of their riches it is because they have been deliberately kept ignorant.

( [link to www.amazon.com]

link to books by Seymour Melman -- I have read only a few pages from his books. Wondering which one(s) are most relevent)

Last Edited by Ralph--a house dog on 12/11/2012 07:34 PM
"Who decides?"
---Robert A. Heinlein

[link to www.westcoasttruth.com]

"Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night.....Rage, rage against the dying of the light"
----Dylan Thomas
davvi (OP)
Merry Christmas!

User ID: 3677166
United States
12/11/2012 07:31 PM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
I grew up in a liberal environment so I've seen that side of things. After I studied engineering for a while, where politically correct answers don't work but logical ones reliably do, I realized (it was a revelation!) that I could think for myself.

I still remember that moment.

And around that time I was reevaluating various liberal platitudes and conclusions. Things I heard in church and other places kept not matching my real-life experiences. Were my experiences wrong? No liberal even wanted to talk about them. Ignoring evidence is not how I was learning to take a scientific, logical view of life. And eventually the cognitive dissonance became great enough that I took a deep breath and decided to do all the work for myself.

An example of a liberal experience: I went to a liberal church group for teenagers. I wondered what kids did in this group, kids didn't usually do "liberal" or "conservative" things, so I was curious and I checked it out.

Well what they did was drugs. Heavy drugs, not just marijuana. Turns out, these were the sort of kids who were failures at school, while I was successful there.

I realized I had nothing in common with these kids. And yet I considered myself liberal, or so I was told.

So that was just one of my questioning moments leading up to my revelation a few years later. My revelation that I could shed all the platitudes (both liberal and conservative, but the ones I was carrying were liberal) and think for myself and refuse to be stopped.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


welcome into the light, ffriend.
 Quoting: davvi


Thank you, and thank you for your posts and threads. I've supported two or three of your threads (while I've been this AC number :) :hf:

BTW I remember the "moment" I decided to think for myaelf, even though it was over 30 years ago! There's a lot I don't know, but these days it's generally stuff that other people don't know either.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


hf thank you very much, i appreciate that.
12-2 HH

A Jewish mother dreams that her son will grow up to be a doctor or, if retarded, a lawyer." --Jackie Mason

I never give RED karma, only GREEN for great posters. If you give me red or green please leave your name, I like to say thank you...

The history of Jewish holidays can be summed up easily: "They tried to kill us; we won, lets eat!"

In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until after it graduates from medical school.

Goodbye sweet friend, we miss you.
davvi (OP)
Merry Christmas!

User ID: 3677166
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12/11/2012 07:32 PM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Way to go Davvi.

Libs = people who look in the mirror and see God.

Conservatives = people who look in the mirror and see people who need God.
 Quoting: beeches


:hiiiii: that is brilliant.
12-2 HH

A Jewish mother dreams that her son will grow up to be a doctor or, if retarded, a lawyer." --Jackie Mason

I never give RED karma, only GREEN for great posters. If you give me red or green please leave your name, I like to say thank you...

The history of Jewish holidays can be summed up easily: "They tried to kill us; we won, lets eat!"

In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until after it graduates from medical school.

Goodbye sweet friend, we miss you.
davvi (OP)
Merry Christmas!

User ID: 3677166
United States
12/11/2012 07:40 PM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
"Liberalism is like a restaurant with ugly decor, terrible food, overflowing toilets and roaches scurrying across the floor -- that stays packed every night. Sure, liberals may be sanctimonious, mean spirited and advocate policies that don't work, but you can't help but admire the excellence of their public relations network. They can laud themselves for courage because they take a stand everyone they know agrees with, pat themselves on the back for their compassion as they maliciously insult someone that disagrees with them and congratulate themselves for their charitable behavior as they give other people's money away. Liberal mythology is one thing, but what it actually looks like is a different beast entirely.
 Quoting: davvi


Ok, you are a good example of a bitchy Ann-coulter wannabe (EWW!), but not even close to that retched rag. (excuse my judgemnt but, seriously?) Fortunately many conservatives respect that everyone is different and dont try to be the alpha insecure wannabe making a fool of himself.

Now since you are probably asking yourself why a Mexican is bitch slapping you, lets just say it is allowed during universal philosophy and political discussions.

The problem with many conservatives is they see the world in simple 2D planes and are unable to see the complexity and the denizens us deep minds see. You see, there are different kinds of people and we are diverse societies with many points of view. I find the most limited ones on all sides of the spectrum those that cannot see things outside their teenyweeny window of observation, framed by all the false dogmas and crap loaded onto them, limiting their field of vision.

One must understand that it is a different physiology all together. Liberals are more like women: emotional, empathetic and put love and warmth in front of corporate greed and status quo. Justice takes a much deeper meaning and dimension when you really stick to your principles you know. You cannot say this is good or bad, its just different priorities. Good and bad according to who?

Now, do you agree with a more calm and sensible explanation like that one? Is that what you meant by: They can laud themselves for courage because they take a stand everyone they know agrees with, pat themselves on the back for their compassion as they maliciously insult someone that disagrees with them and congratulate themselves for their charitable behavior as they give other people's money away.
I dont disagree entirely with you, there are some sick freakin liberals/democrats/progressives out there. Still not enough to outnumber the huge amount of sick conservative/republican/neocon/corporatist/cleptocratist. And not enough to safely generalize that liberal mindsets are defunct/wrong/stupid/inhumane/leachy/etc/etc/etc...

1) Liberals love science: As Ann Coulter says, "Liberals use the word science exactly as they use the word constitutional. Both words are nothing more or less than a general statement of liberal approval, having nothing to do with either science or the Constitution." The liberal commitment to science consists entirely of talking about how important science is when they believe they can use it to further the liberal agenda. On the other hand, when science shows that adult stem cells actually work better than embryonic stem cells, millions in Africa have died because liberals needlessly insisted on banning DDT or the evidence shows AIDS is never going to take off in non-drug-using heterosexuals, liberals have about as much interest in science as they do in supporting the troops.
 Quoting: davvi


Alright, to begin with, none of those decisions were majority liberal based. Second, how old are you? Are you a scientist? Do you know what the fuck you are talking about or just venting frustration or really insecure? Jeez man, get a lid on yourself, you sound like a yapping little girl, yapping without thinking. To conclude, stem cell research was thwarted mostly by conservatives. Do you understand the issues with DDT? If you did, you wouldn't say stupid stuff like that. Are you stupid? AIDS is a huge problem in both homo and heterosexuals AND in non-drug using and drug using people! Viruses don't have gaydar moran, Fucking Hell dude! go back to school or shut up. Sorry but you know jack shiitt! He is a motherfucker!

2) Liberals care about education: If you define "education" as doing as much as humanly possible to toss plums to the teachers’ unions who help fund and elect Democrats, liberals love education. Alternately, if you define education as the rest of us do, making sure our kids learn as much as possible and are prepared for the working world, liberals don't care about education at all. They fight merit pay, oppose firing bad teachers and try to kill even effective school choice programs. Any time there's a divergence between what's best for the teachers’ unions and what's best for the kids, the kids ALWAYS lose with liberals.
 Quoting: davvi


Listen, in Mexico, teachers unions are so corrupt, that they are Right-wing. True that. Still today, kids are intentionally half-taught and kept dumb to make sure the people stay obedient to the post-colonial powers. Be happy you have functioning unions that want the best for the kids, they are inevitable in the grand scheme of things, as is impermanence and the fact that the people on the bottom demand more from the people at the top. Responsibility is a bitch isn't it? Deal with it and quite whining.

3) Liberals are tolerant: In a very real sense, liberals don't understand tolerance. To them, tolerance is promoting whatever position they happen to hold while excluding all competing views. So, if a conservative speaker shows up on a college campus, liberals try to shout him down. Liberals have tried to censor conservative talk show hosts with an Orwellian "Fairness Act." They work tirelessly to try to silence Fox News, which is the one center right network up against ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and MSNBC. They block professors for their conservative views, blacklist conservative actors and lock conservatives out of almost every major newspaper in America. That's not open-minded; it's a level of dogmatic intolerance that could rival the most radical cult..."
 Quoting: davvi


I dont know what you are talking about, maybe singling out some liberal assholes, yes they are some, but generalizing like that really makes you lok bad dude. It sounds like you are whining again. Stand up and live up to your rol in society like a man and quit thinking everyone is against you FFS. If you presented these kinds of arguments on a paper in school, you Fail bigtime!


4 and 5 at the source:

[link to townhall.com]


my question has always been why are they allowed to get away with it without any one calling them on the very obvious nastiness and lies? they do because liberalism is pervasive in our culture. liberals always have back up in the form of liberals on tv, liberals in the movies and liberals hiding behind every tree and under every rock ready to pounce on anyone who disagrees with them. they are everywhere where people get their information.
 Quoting: davvi


If the information is accurate, then they have every right to defend such accuracy. If you have a better argument than them liberalz, then please do present it. I am sure that if it is good information, it would be accepted. Few cultures are taught to analyze and research from early on. Critical thinking is a commodity these days and it is mainly coming from those who can indulge and assume complexity, particularly in the social sciences. If you cannot take the heat, I suggest changing careers.

FOX news is not right wing, it is just further to the center so in comparison to the usual pap in the media it seems right wing.
 Quoting: davvi


Aaaaaaaand, this is the view of a sociopath who chooses the reality they wish to view. FAIL!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1530252


you really don have quite an exalted opinion of yourself and honestly believe that i am going to wade through above crap? lol, i don't think so...oh and by the way >>>>>

:boyisayboy:
 Quoting: davvi


How can you rebut me if you haven't even read what I have to say? You chicken! I might have a few uppercuts and bitch slaps and you wont be able to deal with the pain?

Little house of cards coming down? awww... luttle babey no wanna play with own rules & cry to momma? uuwww...

owhine
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1530252


your first problem is that you answered my post as if i was the one who wrote the "5 myths." i like the five but why in the world would i waste my time rebutting what i didn't write?

take your best shot bub, i am very quick on my feet. lol oh and "sound like a yapping little girl?" thank you.
12-2 HH

A Jewish mother dreams that her son will grow up to be a doctor or, if retarded, a lawyer." --Jackie Mason

I never give RED karma, only GREEN for great posters. If you give me red or green please leave your name, I like to say thank you...

The history of Jewish holidays can be summed up easily: "They tried to kill us; we won, lets eat!"

In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until after it graduates from medical school.

Goodbye sweet friend, we miss you.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 771675
United States
12/11/2012 09:09 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
[...snip...]
You are about to be thrown under the bus. The rich fucks don't want to bother picking up your medical tab or paying your social security or fulfilling the pension obligation to you. They used you while they could, and threw you some tasty morsels in order to buy your loyalty: your house (and vacation cottage?), car, boat, etc. You had no objection. You didn't ask where the goodies were coming from (in fact, a lot of it was coming from the sweat and blood of others, elsewhere). They were SUCCESSFUL in buying your loyalty, weren't they? And now you think the goodies will keep on rolling in. You think you're entitled to them. Haha. Sorry to inform you, but you're about to be thrown under the bus. And you probably deserve it. Which is not to say that the rich fucks are right to do what they are doing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


And to that I might add:

In the process of this under-the-bus-throwing, our wonderful "conservatives" will get the "small(er) government" that they say they've been wanting -- but it won't look AT ALL like what they thought it would look like!

"Smaller government" will mean:

-- drastic cuts to social security and medicare,

-- drastic cuts to unemployment, workman's comp, food
stamps, and other essential support for keeping
people from slipping into destitution

-- crumbling infrastructure, power grid failures and
rolling blackouts, impassable roads, etc., etc.,
continually getting worse, for decades

-- failing services of all kinds, failing police
and fire support, rampant crime

-- closed schools, and an ignorant and dysfunctional
population (or MORE so than already exists);
rampant illiteracy

-- decimated or even non-existent middle class,

-- the return of something resembling medieval
feudalism, with the poor (formerly middle-class)
working as serfs for manorial lords

-- more or less everything spiralling downward.

THAT will be the fruit of your anti-big-government faux (Koch brothers) populism, you idiots! You'll GET your small government, all right. And it will be ugly as sin. You'll get smaller government in all the ways that will hurt you, and all the people around you.

If we really wanted smaller government -- as we should have, 50 and 75 years ago -- we would have insisted on NOT allowing the financially ruinous (as well as morally unsound) military/industrial/security complex to be built to begin with. We would have listened to the (WISE) authentic traditional conservatives who urged us NOT to engage in foreign wars. We would have had the sense NOT to create a global empire requiring a vast military and support structures to survive. We would NOT have allowed neo-cons to take over the government and foreign policy. We would NOT have allowed the development of a medical/industrial complex that costs per capita fully THRICE the health care costs of other developed nations. And so on. But we didn't. And now it is too late. Big Government is baked in the cake. To dismantle big government now is to dismantle the entire American way of life, because EVERYONE depends on big government. (Not that dismantling the American way of life is ultimately a bad thing; actually it is a good thing; but in the process it will be ugly.) To dismantle big government now (by "now" I mean over a short period, such as a single generation) is to precipitate a very nasty social and economic implosion, with all the features as on my bullet list above. Ugly as sin, for decades.

Theoretically, we could do it without that ugliness. We could make a collective decision to SLOWLY reduce big government, over many decades. Some intellectuals have suggested this over the years. Seymour Melman comes to mind. He was one of the best scholars of the military/industrial buildup, and he wrote often about the (long, slow) process of economic conversion, going from a permanent war economy to an economy of peace, and human and social development. But alas, no one listened. Everyone was busy spending their handsome paychecks on boats and cottages. And now it is too late.

Theoretically, we could do it without the ugliness, but we won't get the chance. Too late now. We've reached the end of the line. The rest of the world is fed up with us, and the rich fucks don't want to be bothered paying for our bloated "needs".

Of course, the rich fucks LOVE all this anti-big-government activism. Plays directly into their hands! Big government made them rich, but it also made all kinds of promises that they don't want to stick around and pay. So they'll take the riches and let us have our "small government", now. In fact, like the Koch brothers, they'll even devote a few $million (out of petty cash) to create astro-turf anti-big-government groups to pressure congress to dismantle the programs on which the country depends.

They'll take the riches, pack up and move East and South, just as they have been for decades; didn't you notice? All the factories and everything else moving to Mexico, China, India, Vietnam, etc.? They're leaving, and they won't be coming back for many decades, if ever. Why should they? They don't want to be stuck with the tab for your quadruple bypass operation.

Before this is over, you'll be on your knees BEGGING for big government to come back and make things like they were. But then it will be too late. It is already too late.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


Damn. I believe this might really be how it is.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


AHHHHHH!

A single comment like that makes it all worthwhile.

The typical "conservative" Glen Beck-admirer would be dazed and uncomprehending at what I just wrote. But there are the atypical ones like you, capable of Getting It.

I've always said we should have listened to Eisenhower's warning about the military/industrial complex, to Kennedy's warning about those behind the scene who run the world; been outraged at the real reasons for wars that have killed many of my friends and family, griped about the neocons, laughed at the liberals, hated on totalitarianism, have been active in political issues that support liberty, worked to help the helpless, refused to just roll over and shut up--- all for what?
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog

To bring you to THIS very point of understanding.

Nothing is wasted.

Congratulations on your disillusionment. It is the beginning of wisdom. You're miles ahead of your compadres, and probably of the average reader of these words.

Those bastards DO owe us; they have used us to get where they are and if most people have been unaware of the origins of their riches it is because they have been deliberately kept ignorant.

( [link to www.amazon.com]

link to books by Seymour Melman -- I have read only a few pages from his books. Wondering which one(s) are most relevent)
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog

I recall "The Permanent War Economy", but I know he has written many others. I don't know which is best.

Try this, a Melman article archive:
[link to globalmakeover.com]
Seymour Melman's Article Archive
War Economy
Disarmament/War
Economic Conversion

Here's a selection:
[link to globalmakeover.com]
How George Bush, his Congress and Pentagon Are
LOOTING Our Cities, ROBBING Our People &
STEALING From Our Children
By Seymour Melman*

...... Of course, it is now BARACK OBAMA, his congress, and the pentagon that are doing the same. Names and faces change often; fundamental policies change rarely if at all.

MORE: from the site above, there's a link to what appears to be Melman's latest book, FREE, ONLINE:

[link to ejournals.library.vanderbilt.edu]

War Inc., by Seymour Melman

Table of Contents
Introduction
In Honor of Seymour Melman HTML PDF
Editor's Foreword to War Inc. HTML PDF
Preface HTML PDF
Introduction - America’s Permanent War Economy HTML PDF
Chapter 1 - The American Corporate-State Regime HTML PDF
Chapter 2 - Hatching Wars Without End HTML PDF
Chapter 3 - Deindustrializing the US: The War Against American Workers HTML PDF
Chapter 4 - Producing in the United States: Beyond War Economy HTML PDF
Chapter 5 - An Alternative To The Permanent War Economy: Reindustrializing the U.S. (Beyond a War Economy) HTML PDF
Appendix A - National Employment and Income Effects From a Shift in Federal Priorities HTML PDF
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 771675
United States
12/11/2012 09:51 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
MORE: from the site above, there's a link to what appears to be Melman's latest book, FREE, ONLINE:

[link to ejournals.library.vanderbilt.edu]

War Inc., by Seymour Melman

Table of Contents
Introduction
In Honor of Seymour Melman HTML PDF
Editor's Foreword to War Inc. HTML PDF
Preface HTML PDF
Introduction - America’s Permanent War Economy HTML PDF
Chapter 1 - The American Corporate-State Regime HTML PDF
Chapter 2 - Hatching Wars Without End HTML PDF
Chapter 3 - Deindustrializing the US: The War Against American Workers HTML PDF
Chapter 4 - Producing in the United States: Beyond War Economy HTML PDF
Chapter 5 - An Alternative To The Permanent War Economy: Reindustrializing the U.S. (Beyond a War Economy) HTML PDF
Appendix A - National Employment and Income Effects From a Shift in Federal Priorities HTML PDF
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


NOTE TO "CONSERVATIVES":

THIS IS THE REAL DEAL.

THIS IS THE NITTY GRITTY OF DISMANTLING BIG GOVERNMENT.

ABOUT 80% OF BIG GOVERNMENT* CONSISTS OF THE MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL/SECURITY/PRISON COMPLEX.

THERE WILL BE NO SMALL GOVERNMENT WITHOUT DRASTIC DOWNSIZING OF THIS COMPLEX.

FURTHER: NOT ONLY IS THIS ABOUT DISMANTLING BIG GOVERNMENT, IT IS ABOUT THE EQUALLY-IMPORTANT MATTER OF REINDUSTRIALIZING THE U.S. -- SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE DONE AS LONG AS THE MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX MAINTAINS ITS STRANGLE-HOLD. SEE CHAPTERS 3, 4 & 5 OF THE BOOK LINKED ABOVE.

TIME TO LIVE UP TO YOUR NAME. TIME TO BE REAL CONSERVATIVES, DEVOTED TO CONSERVING THAT WHICH IS WORTHWHILE -- A NOBLE CAUSE -- AND FIGHTING THAT WHICH IS DESTROYING OUR NATION. WE DESPERATELY NEED REAL CONSERVATIVES. BE ONE OF THEM.

...........

*That is, 80% of big government that CAN be dismantled. There are some things that we cannot get rid of. The interest on the national debt, for example, is not something that can be dispensed with; we HAVE to pay it. (Or default on the debt, and you don't want to go there, I don't think.) Similarly, things like social security and medicare and welfare could be cut, but not too drastically, (or even much at all), else we'll have people literally dying in the streets, freezing or starving in their homes, etc., etc.; i.e. a Dickensian hell that NO ONE would tolerate. Theoretically we could take a meat-cleaver to SS and medicare and welfare, but in practice it just isn't possible, voluntarily. (Though drastic cuts might be IMPOSED on us, against our will, but that is a different matter.) The other 20% is little crap like all the alphabet agencies. Surely there is bloat in there, savings to be realized, but relative to the gorillas in the room (just mentioned) it does not amount to much.
Anonymous Coward
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12/11/2012 09:55 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
BTW if Asia is awash in oil and gas, why do they keep importing the stuff? And if one part of Asia is "awash" in it (Indonesia maybe?) it doesn't mean other Asian countries (China) get it for a bargain price. It's all business, especially in Asia.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


They don't import the stuff - gas. They have no need to. China, Iran, India, Malaysia, India, all have huge reserves.
Australia, too. (Not strictly in Asia, but a close neighbor.) As for oil: similar. Those same countries have a lot of oil, and there is even more in Russia and (of course) the middle east. Agreed that presence in one country does not mean bargain prices for another. But do not overlook a critical fact: NOT having to transport energy over extremely long distances, especially over oceans, is a big advantage. Huge, even.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


To import natgas, it would have to be compressed and put into canisters. That is called Compressed Natural Gas. They are importing it to some extent. It's a very expensive process to compress it, then decompress it on arrival.

Decompression is somewhat dangerous. Sometimes the facility tends to blow up.

They aren't importing any from the USA because the USA is not exporting any. I believe that's the law; nobody can export CNG from here. (I know it is the law that crude oil cannot be exported, though refined petroleum products can be.)

But if the natgas industry has its way, they will start exporting. I think Obama is favorable to the idea.

See, you don't know what you're talking about, and I do.
Anonymous Coward
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12/11/2012 10:00 PM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
To import natgas, it would have to be compressed and put into canisters. That is called Compressed Natural Gas. They are importing it to some extent.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28008747


NET imports to ASIA as a whole (which is what we were talking about)? I doubt it. No need. Unless they've decided, strategically, to buy some and keep theirs in the ground for a while longer. Possible, I suppose, but doubtful. They have no need to do that.
Conspiracy Theorist

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12/12/2012 10:20 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
The reason the Nazis used red in their flags was to attract the the communists to the national socialist party. And guess what? It worked. The socialsts, communists, and nationalists all united, the Nazi's consolidated power and the rest is history.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


GOD you are ignorant. The communists did not "unite" with the Nazis, you ass. They were KILLED by them. Bolshevik communism was thought to be a jewish conspiracy that must be smashed, destroyed, utterly. The Nazis were uncompromising on this point. The Nazis can only be called "socialist" in the same very loose, meaningless sense that all kinds of regimes call themselves "democratic" or "republican". These are just propaganda words, with no meaning. The Nazis had NOTHING in common with communists, and purged anyone with left sympathies from the party back in the late 1920s. READ SOME HISTORY before you blow off your mouth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


They killed the communists AFTER they came to power, AFTER. In order to come to power in the first place they needed the support of the communists, hence the red flag comment. They did unite, in the early 1930's when the debate in Europe was Socialism vs. Communism. To America, both of these governing philosophies are way to the left of American conservatism.

So, kindly bite me and piss off sir.
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 08:16 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
The reason the Nazis used red in their flags was to attract the the communists to the national socialist party. And guess what? It worked. The socialsts, communists, and nationalists all united, the Nazi's consolidated power and the rest is history.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


GOD you are ignorant. The communists did not "unite" with the Nazis, you ass. They were KILLED by them. Bolshevik communism was thought to be a jewish conspiracy that must be smashed, destroyed, utterly. The Nazis were uncompromising on this point. The Nazis can only be called "socialist" in the same very loose, meaningless sense that all kinds of regimes call themselves "democratic" or "republican". These are just propaganda words, with no meaning. The Nazis had NOTHING in common with communists, and purged anyone with left sympathies from the party back in the late 1920s. READ SOME HISTORY before you blow off your mouth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


They killed the communists AFTER they came to power, AFTER. In order to come to power in the first place they needed the support of the communists, hence the red flag comment. They did unite, in the early 1930's when the debate in Europe was Socialism vs. Communism. To America, both of these governing philosophies are way to the left of American conservatism.

So, kindly bite me and piss off sir.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


GOD you are ignorant.

Just read some basic stuff, like wikipedia writeups on nazi germany, and the communist party in germany (historically).

Or, dig into more specialized writeups:

[link to www.colby.edu]
D.6. The Rise of the Nazis and Communists
"Before 1925 the Nazis and their associates had appeared mainly on the stage of Bavarian politics. To non-Bavarians -- Germans and foreigners alike -- Hitler looked like a local political matador (or a clown escaped from the Munich Oktoberfest). This changed when Hitler left prison in early 1925. Disillusioned about the chances of using Bavaria as a footstep for takeover in Berlin, he started to build up a nation-wide organization strictly loyal to him. The SA was rebuilt, too. Increasingly, it engaged in BLOODY STREET BATTLES WITH THE COMMUNIST and republican paramilitary units." [emphasis added]

Got that? BLOODY STREET BATTLES WITH THE COMMUNISTS -- **BEFORE** 1925.

The Nazis and communists "united" in the 1930s? Don't make me laugh. They were always poles apart.

I agree that Naziism is not to be confused with conservatism. It was not a conservative movement. It was, however, extremely and unquestionably right-wing.
Conspiracy Theorist

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12/13/2012 10:55 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 11:04 AM
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Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


Right wing as compared to Marxism, anarcho-communism, libertarian socialism, etc. Naziism was totalitarian, racist, sexist, imperialistic, and militaristic/jingoistic. Those are all right-wing traits. Though not necessarily (and sometimes decidedly NOT) conservative traits.
Epicbiscuit

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12/13/2012 11:08 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
God damn sheep... The left right paradigm is a distraction and only a way to divide Americans further. Wake up.
davvi (OP)
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12/13/2012 11:15 AM

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Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


i don't consider myself any kind of "wing." i consider myself conservative who holds dear tradtional values of hard work, independence, and small, minute government.

republicans are NOT conservative and actually have as much distain for conservatives as their lefty/libtard/demos do.
12-2 HH

A Jewish mother dreams that her son will grow up to be a doctor or, if retarded, a lawyer." --Jackie Mason

I never give RED karma, only GREEN for great posters. If you give me red or green please leave your name, I like to say thank you...

The history of Jewish holidays can be summed up easily: "They tried to kill us; we won, lets eat!"

In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until after it graduates from medical school.

Goodbye sweet friend, we miss you.
Conspiracy Theorist

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12/13/2012 11:18 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


Right wing as compared to Marxism, anarcho-communism, libertarian socialism, etc. Naziism was totalitarian, racist, sexist, imperialistic, and militaristic/jingoistic. Those are all right-wing traits. Though not necessarily (and sometimes decidedly NOT) conservative traits.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


So, right wing in the context of European politics, NOT American politcs as I stated from the very beginning. To Americans, Naziism is still far to the left wing.

Thanks for reinforcing my correctness.

They did eventually unite in the 30's which was the catalyst to the Nazis rise to power culminating in WWII.
Conspiracy Theorist

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12/13/2012 11:20 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


i don't consider myself any kind of "wing." i consider myself conservative who holds dear tradtional values of hard work, independence, and small, minute government.

republicans are NOT conservative and actually have as much distain for conservatives as their lefty/libtard/demos do.
 Quoting: davvi


Do not equate Republicanism with Republicans. Repubs are the asshole politicians. Republicanism is the ideals our country was founded on.
davvi (OP)
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12/13/2012 11:32 AM

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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


i don't consider myself any kind of "wing." i consider myself conservative who holds dear tradtional values of hard work, independence, and small, minute government.

republicans are NOT conservative and actually have as much distain for conservatives as their lefty/libtard/demos do.
 Quoting: davvi


Do not equate Republicanism with Republicans. Repubs are the asshole politicians. Republicanism is the ideals our country was founded on.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


i am aware of the difference, and as a conservative i hold the traditional founding of this country quite dear. what the dems have done, with the acquiescence of "republican" politicians, is criminal.
12-2 HH

A Jewish mother dreams that her son will grow up to be a doctor or, if retarded, a lawyer." --Jackie Mason

I never give RED karma, only GREEN for great posters. If you give me red or green please leave your name, I like to say thank you...

The history of Jewish holidays can be summed up easily: "They tried to kill us; we won, lets eat!"

In Jewish tradition, the fetus is not considered viable until after it graduates from medical school.

Goodbye sweet friend, we miss you.
Conspiracy Theorist

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12/13/2012 11:40 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
Right wing as compared to what? American Republicanism? I think not.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


i don't consider myself any kind of "wing." i consider myself conservative who holds dear tradtional values of hard work, independence, and small, minute government.

republicans are NOT conservative and actually have as much distain for conservatives as their lefty/libtard/demos do.
 Quoting: davvi


Do not equate Republicanism with Republicans. Repubs are the asshole politicians. Republicanism is the ideals our country was founded on.
 Quoting: Conspiracy Theorist


i am aware of the difference, and as a conservative i hold the traditional founding of this country quite dear. what the dems have done, with the acquiescence of "republican" politicians, is criminal.
 Quoting: davvi


Agree 100%!! Salute!
Anonymous Coward
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04/06/2013 03:16 AM
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Re: 5 Myths Liberals Have Created About Themselves
MORE: from the site above, there's a link to what appears to be Melman's latest book, FREE, ONLINE:

[link to ejournals.library.vanderbilt.edu]

War Inc., by Seymour Melman

Table of Contents
Introduction
In Honor of Seymour Melman HTML PDF
Editor's Foreword to War Inc. HTML PDF
Preface HTML PDF
Introduction - America’s Permanent War Economy HTML PDF
Chapter 1 - The American Corporate-State Regime HTML PDF
Chapter 2 - Hatching Wars Without End HTML PDF
Chapter 3 - Deindustrializing the US: The War Against American Workers HTML PDF
Chapter 4 - Producing in the United States: Beyond War Economy HTML PDF
Chapter 5 - An Alternative To The Permanent War Economy: Reindustrializing the U.S. (Beyond a War Economy) HTML PDF
Appendix A - National Employment and Income Effects From a Shift in Federal Priorities HTML PDF
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


NOTE TO "CONSERVATIVES":

THIS IS THE REAL DEAL.

THIS IS THE NITTY GRITTY OF DISMANTLING BIG GOVERNMENT.

ABOUT 80% OF BIG GOVERNMENT* CONSISTS OF THE MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL/SECURITY/PRISON COMPLEX.

THERE WILL BE NO SMALL GOVERNMENT WITHOUT DRASTIC DOWNSIZING OF THIS COMPLEX.

FURTHER: NOT ONLY IS THIS ABOUT DISMANTLING BIG GOVERNMENT, IT IS ABOUT THE EQUALLY-IMPORTANT MATTER OF REINDUSTRIALIZING THE U.S. -- SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE DONE AS LONG AS THE MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX MAINTAINS ITS STRANGLE-HOLD. SEE CHAPTERS 3, 4 & 5 OF THE BOOK LINKED ABOVE.

TIME TO LIVE UP TO YOUR NAME. TIME TO BE REAL CONSERVATIVES, DEVOTED TO CONSERVING THAT WHICH IS WORTHWHILE -- A NOBLE CAUSE -- AND FIGHTING THAT WHICH IS DESTROYING OUR NATION. WE DESPERATELY NEED REAL CONSERVATIVES. BE ONE OF THEM.

...........

*That is, 80% of big government that CAN be dismantled. There are some things that we cannot get rid of. The interest on the national debt, for example, is not something that can be dispensed with; we HAVE to pay it. (Or default on the debt, and you don't want to go there, I don't think.) Similarly, things like social security and medicare and welfare could be cut, but not too drastically, (or even much at all), else we'll have people literally dying in the streets, freezing or starving in their homes, etc., etc.; i.e. a Dickensian hell that NO ONE would tolerate. Theoretically we could take a meat-cleaver to SS and medicare and welfare, but in practice it just isn't possible, voluntarily. (Though drastic cuts might be IMPOSED on us, against our will, but that is a different matter.) The other 20% is little crap like all the alphabet agencies. Surely there is bloat in there, savings to be realized, but relative to the gorillas in the room (just mentioned) it does not amount to much.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 771675


This. (a reminder)

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