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How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14317225
United Kingdom
12/12/2012 12:24 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
OP, Merica is broke. Like really broke. They're keeping the country afloat by suing multi-nationals (BP,HSBC) and encouraging US companies not to pay tax abroad, instead putting it all to American shareholders and banks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29620170


America getting broke is like sea running out of sea-water. Never going to happen.

"Countries that can print their own currency can never go broke" - Economics 101
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


But they devalue instead, which just a nice way of defaulting. You sound like you've just created this thread to practice answering questions for an interview you have tomorrow at the Federal Reserve.lmao
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1382145
United States
12/12/2012 12:25 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I don't see how you can deny math. It's simple math. 16 trillion debt(that we know of) growing daily. We can barely pay the interest on that.

It is true though, as long as we can print money, we can prop up the broken system, but what happens when we are not the reserve any longer? Do you know what will happen when we print money then?

I understand the need to question everything, especially conspiracy theories.....but how can you try and make a case against math?

You can take issue with Chem trails, moonlanding "hoax", 12-21-12, illuminati, but you can't argue against math. Math is a constant.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


We are not discussing maths, my friend, but economics. In economics, the amount of debt is always considered in relation to the GDP of a country. In case of US, the GDP is also over $16 trillion giving a public debt : gdp ratio of 1:1 or 100% which while high is not astronomical.

Consider that Japan has debt:GDP ratio of over 200 %, for nearly two decades, but it hasn't been bankrupted or even faced problem of not being able to pay it off. Also consider that dabt:gdp ratio of US during post WW2 was as high as 146%, yet its economy continued booming for several decades.

First of all, it is unlikely that USD will stop being reserve currency for many more years because all other currencies of the world are far weaker than dollar, including Euro. But even in the unlikely event that USD stops being reserve currency, it won't make much difference. After all, Japanese yen is not a reserve currency, yet it hasn't been bankrupted by its high debt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


1) So according to you economics is not about math? When did you join the Obama adminstration?
2) How many dollars are in the system worldwide as compared to yen? The comparison is laughable.
3) Who is the primary holder of Japanese debt? Why that would be the Japanese themselves, in form of pensions and retirement funds.
4) How has all this money printing worked out for Japan? Any understanding why they called the 90's "the lost decade"
5) If John Maynard Keynes suddenly stopped, would your head go completely up his ass?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 12:32 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
OP, Merica is broke. Like really broke. They're keeping the country afloat by suing multi-nationals (BP,HSBC) and encouraging US companies not to pay tax abroad, instead putting it all to American shareholders and banks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29620170


America getting broke is like sea running out of sea-water. Never going to happen.

"Countries that can print their own currency can never go broke" - Economics 101
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


But they devalue instead, which just a nice way of defaulting. You sound like you've just created this thread to practice answering questions for an interview you have tomorrow at the Federal Reserve.lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14317225



Haha..I wish!

But if USD was getting devalued, why is DXY is so high? Devaluation of a currency happens

-when supply of a currency is more than demand
-when production falls, but money supply increases

Presently, neither of the two cases is true. The demand for USD all over the world is increasing which is why DXY is so high. Also, for last few quarters, US economy is growing at over 2% which means that production hasn't fallen in US.

This obviously means that the USD supply is being absorbed by US and world economy. That's why USD hasn't been devalued.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14317225
United Kingdom
12/12/2012 12:37 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
OP, Merica is broke. Like really broke. They're keeping the country afloat by suing multi-nationals (BP,HSBC) and encouraging US companies not to pay tax abroad, instead putting it all to American shareholders and banks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29620170


America getting broke is like sea running out of sea-water. Never going to happen.

"Countries that can print their own currency can never go broke" - Economics 101
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


But they devalue instead, which just a nice way of defaulting. You sound like you've just created this thread to practice answering questions for an interview you have tomorrow at the Federal Reserve.lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14317225



Haha..I wish!

But if USD was getting devalued, why is DXY is so high? Devaluation of a currency happens .

-when supply of a currency is more than demand
-when production falls, but money supply increases

Presently, neither of the two cases is true. The demand for USD all over the world is increasing which is why DXY is so high. Also, for last few quarters, US economy is growing at over 2% which means that production hasn't fallen in US.

This obviously means that the USD supply is being absorbed by US and world economy. That's why USD hasn't been devalued.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


Cos the only Asian currency in the USD is the YEN. The Yuan (china) is at record highs against the Dollar and the USD index would be lower if Asian more Currencies were included.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 12:46 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I don't see how you can deny math. It's simple math. 16 trillion debt(that we know of) growing daily. We can barely pay the interest on that.

It is true though, as long as we can print money, we can prop up the broken system, but what happens when we are not the reserve any longer? Do you know what will happen when we print money then?

I understand the need to question everything, especially conspiracy theories.....but how can you try and make a case against math?

You can take issue with Chem trails, moonlanding "hoax", 12-21-12, illuminati, but you can't argue against math. Math is a constant.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


We are not discussing maths, my friend, but economics. In economics, the amount of debt is always considered in relation to the GDP of a country. In case of US, the GDP is also over $16 trillion giving a public debt : gdp ratio of 1:1 or 100% which while high is not astronomical.

Consider that Japan has debt:GDP ratio of over 200 %, for nearly two decades, but it hasn't been bankrupted or even faced problem of not being able to pay it off. Also consider that dabt:gdp ratio of US during post WW2 was as high as 146%, yet its economy continued booming for several decades.

First of all, it is unlikely that USD will stop being reserve currency for many more years because all other currencies of the world are far weaker than dollar, including Euro. But even in the unlikely event that USD stops being reserve currency, it won't make much difference. After all, Japanese yen is not a reserve currency, yet it hasn't been bankrupted by its high debt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


1) So according to you economics is not about math? When did you join the Obama adminstration?
2) How many dollars are in the system worldwide as compared to yen? The comparison is laughable.
3) Who is the primary holder of Japanese debt? Why that would be the Japanese themselves, in form of pensions and retirement funds.
4) How has all this money printing worked out for Japan? Any understanding why they called the 90's "the lost decade"
5) If John Maynard Keynes suddenly stopped, would your head go completely up his ass?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382145


1) In economics, laws of economics are primary, not of maths. In any case, no maths law has been violated. I've only pointed out that instead of absolute amount of $16 trillions, we should consider this amount in relation to GDP size.

2) That is irrelevant. The dollars outside US are used to buy goods outside US and don't create glut of money supply inside US economy. If India has 500 billion USD, it uses them to purchase oil from Saudi Arabia. US economy isn't effected anyway by trades happening outside US.

3) FYI, major part of $16 trillion debt is internal. Only $4 trillions of total US debt is external, rest is internal. A 25% external debt to GDP ratio is actually very low. Most countries struggle to keep this ratio at such low levels.

4) The 'lost decade' was period of 0 growth, but near full-employment. In other words, while Japan's economy wasn't growing like US, its unemployment was low and due to the fact that Japanese enjoyed per capita income of over $35000 they lived a life of affluence throughout the decade.

5) s226
<<FOCUS>>
User ID: 660580
United States
12/12/2012 12:49 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
So i have to ask:

Why would someone from India give a shit about US policy?

Answer:

shill
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 12:53 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
So i have to ask:

Why would someone from India give a shit about US policy?

Answer:

shill
 Quoting: <<FOCUS>> 660580


Duh! iamwith

You get the dumb post of the day award.

FYI, we live in a globalized economy. I could be living in Somalia or Fiji islands and be trading in US stocks or currency for a living. Wouldn't I be interested in the health of US economy if I were?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 01:00 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
...


America getting broke is like sea running out of sea-water. Never going to happen.

"Countries that can print their own currency can never go broke" - Economics 101
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


But they devalue instead, which just a nice way of defaulting. You sound like you've just created this thread to practice answering questions for an interview you have tomorrow at the Federal Reserve.lmao
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14317225



Haha..I wish!

But if USD was getting devalued, why is DXY is so high? Devaluation of a currency happens .

-when supply of a currency is more than demand
-when production falls, but money supply increases

Presently, neither of the two cases is true. The demand for USD all over the world is increasing which is why DXY is so high. Also, for last few quarters, US economy is growing at over 2% which means that production hasn't fallen in US.

This obviously means that the USD supply is being absorbed by US and world economy. That's why USD hasn't been devalued.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


Cos the only Asian currency in the USD is the YEN. The Yuan (china) is at record highs against the Dollar and the USD index would be lower if Asian more Currencies were included.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14317225


China is one of the most powerful economies of the world and being relatively poorer to the west, it's growing at over 7% ever year for last 3 decades. So obviously, its currency will be strong. But the performance of most other asian countries against USD isn't good. Indian Rupee has fallen from Rs.40 few years back to Rs.55 and so have many other asian currencies. In fact, if more asian countries were included, the DXY would rise even further.
No Dhimmi
Proud Infidel

User ID: 109891
United States
12/12/2012 01:12 PM

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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
Unfunded Liabili
Background of my avatar: [link to en.wikipedia.org]

The religion of submission cannot survive an open and honest discussion of its convoluted and foolish scriptures, its sexually perverted terrorist prophet, or its deceitful and demented god. When Western leaders become unified and resolute in their hostility to Islam's violent and ungodly beginnings, Muslims will flee the religion because they will be horrified by its endorsement of terrorism, mass murder, slave trading, plunder, kidnapping, and rape.

If Muslims & their apologists really want to cure "Islamophobia," here is an easy way. Focus their indignation on Muslims committing violent acts in the name of Islam, not on non-Muslims reporting on those acts.
[link to www.cspipublishing.com]
[link to www.faithfreedom.org]
[link to thereligionofpeace.com]
[link to www.bibleprobe.com]
[link to www.fatherzakaria.net]

Ecclesiastes 10:2 “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.”

We are all born ignorant, but it takes a lot of work to keep looking the other way to remain stupid.

Islam is not a race - the racism rant is lame, used by the intellectually lazy to derail the debate.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 01:31 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
:Unfunded Liabili:
 Quoting: No Dhimmi


What does this chart prove?

If you had created a similar chart of 'unfunded liabilities' 50 years ago, the result would still have been the same. The fact is that all the 'unfunded liabilities' of the past decades did get funded ultimately because the economies kept growing due to which revenue from taxation also multiplied.

Similarly, in future too economies will keep growing as a result of discovery of new energy sources, new technologies, increasing demand from China and India and many other reasons.

Despite all the gloom, didn't consumer spending reach a new high during this 'Black Friday' shopping where all previous records were broken? So what makes you think that people would stop spending in future and tax revenue will collapse?
*HEISENBERG*

User ID: 28152425
United States
12/12/2012 01:35 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I guess you are in for awakening OP.

Even the "mainstream" economists are starting to admit we could see a collapse.

You can try and make as many diflections as possible, but numbers don't lie.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 01:44 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I guess you are in for awakening OP.

Even the "mainstream" economists are starting to admit we could see a collapse.

You can try and make as many diflections as possible, but numbers don't lie.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


No, only the chicago/austria school of economist are screaming from rooftops about economic collapse. Those who don't follow this discredit model know that once unemployment reduces, there will be a huge jump in consumer spending which will fuel high growth. Once US and global economy recovers and starts growing, people will forget about debt. Please check the debt to gdp ratio during Clinton years. Did anyone care at that time?
*HEISENBERG*

User ID: 28152425
United States
12/12/2012 01:51 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I guess you are in for awakening OP.

Even the "mainstream" economists are starting to admit we could see a collapse.

You can try and make as many diflections as possible, but numbers don't lie.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


No, only the chicago/austria school of economist are screaming from rooftops about economic collapse. Those who don't follow this discredit model know that once unemployment reduces, there will be a huge jump in consumer spending which will fuel high growth. Once US and global economy recovers and starts growing, people will forget about debt. Please check the debt to gdp ratio during Clinton years. Did anyone care at that time?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


If you hadn't noticed, unemployment is not imroving.

The only reason the governments numbers have dropped a little bit, is because people have given up looking for work.

The outlook for unemployment in the near future is also bleak.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 02:04 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I guess you are in for awakening OP.

Even the "mainstream" economists are starting to admit we could see a collapse.

You can try and make as many diflections as possible, but numbers don't lie.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


No, only the chicago/austria school of economists are screaming from rooftops about economic collapse. Those who don't follow this discredited model know that once unemployment reduces, there will be a huge jump in consumer spending which will fuel high growth. Once US and global economy recovers and starts growing, people will forget about debt. Please check the debt to gdp ratio during Clinton years. Did anyone care at that time?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


If you hadn't noticed, unemployment is not imroving.

The only reason the governments numbers have dropped a little bit, is because people have given up looking for work.

The outlook for unemployment in the near future is also bleak.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Whose fault is that? The very capitalists who fund the chicago school of economists and preach that govt should cut down social spending. How would austerity increase employment? Austerity failed miserably in Europe, so why would it succeed in US?

Big business can use technology and cheap outsourced labor to get work done. So why would they care about high unemployment? Only US govt can reduce it by increasing spending. But the republicans (read big business) are not cooperating. Why?

Read this..
[link to www.newyorker.com]

As one would have expected on the basis of the textbooks, the American economy, while hardly racing ahead, has fared considerably better than its British counterpart. Between 2010 and 2012, G.D.P. growth here has averaged about 2.1 per cent. For the U.K., the figure is 0.9 per cent. What may be more surprising—at least to those of you who have been listening to the deficit hawks—is that the United States, while sticking with Keynesian stimulus policies, has also managed to bring down the size of its deficit, relative to G.D.P., almost as rapidly as hairshirt Britain has. Back in 2009, at the depths of the recession, both countries had double-digit deficits. Today, the U.S. deficit stands at about seven per cent of G.D.P., and the British deficit is about five per cent of G.D.P. But with the U.S. growing faster than the U.K,. the gap is set to close. Next year, according to the latest forecasts from the Congressional Budget Office and the O.B.R., the U.S. deficit will be considerably smaller than the U.K. deficit: four per cent of G.D.P. compared to six per cent.

Let’s go over that one more time. Having adopted the policies of Keynes in response to a calamitous recession, the United States has grown more than twice as fast during the past three years as Britain, which adopted the economics of Hoover (and Paul Ryan). Meanwhile, the gaping hole in the two countries’ budgets has declined at roughly the same rate, and next year the U.S. will be in better fiscal shape than its old ally.
*HEISENBERG*

User ID: 28152425
United States
12/12/2012 02:15 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
I guess you are in for awakening OP.

Even the "mainstream" economists are starting to admit we could see a collapse.

You can try and make as many diflections as possible, but numbers don't lie.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


No, only the chicago/austria school of economists are screaming from rooftops about economic collapse. Those who don't follow this discredited model know that once unemployment reduces, there will be a huge jump in consumer spending which will fuel high growth. Once US and global economy recovers and starts growing, people will forget about debt. Please check the debt to gdp ratio during Clinton years. Did anyone care at that time?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


If you hadn't noticed, unemployment is not imroving.

The only reason the governments numbers have dropped a little bit, is because people have given up looking for work.

The outlook for unemployment in the near future is also bleak.
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Whose fault is that? The very capitalists who fund the chicago school of economists and preach that govt should cut down social spending. How would austerity increase employment? Austerity failed miserably in Europe, so why would it succeed in US?

Big business can use technology and cheap outsourced labor to get work done. So why would they care about high unemployment? Only US govt can reduce it by increasing spending. But the republicans (read big business) are not cooperating. Why?

Read this..
[link to www.newyorker.com]

As one would have expected on the basis of the textbooks, the American economy, while hardly racing ahead, has fared considerably better than its British counterpart. Between 2010 and 2012, G.D.P. growth here has averaged about 2.1 per cent. For the U.K., the figure is 0.9 per cent. What may be more surprising—at least to those of you who have been listening to the deficit hawks—is that the United States, while sticking with Keynesian stimulus policies, has also managed to bring down the size of its deficit, relative to G.D.P., almost as rapidly as hairshirt Britain has. Back in 2009, at the depths of the recession, both countries had double-digit deficits. Today, the U.S. deficit stands at about seven per cent of G.D.P., and the British deficit is about five per cent of G.D.P. But with the U.S. growing faster than the U.K,. the gap is set to close. Next year, according to the latest forecasts from the Congressional Budget Office and the O.B.R., the U.S. deficit will be considerably smaller than the U.K. deficit: four per cent of G.D.P. compared to six per cent.

Let’s go over that one more time. Having adopted the policies of Keynes in response to a calamitous recession, the United States has grown more than twice as fast during the past three years as Britain, which adopted the economics of Hoover (and Paul Ryan). Meanwhile, the gaping hole in the two countries’ budgets has declined at roughly the same rate, and next year the U.S. will be in better fiscal shape than its old ally.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


You are all over the place. You said once unemployment improved, people would forget about the debt and everything would be peachy.

I said unemployment will not improve anytime soon.

Then you took a left turn out into the middle of nowhere....
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 02:32 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
You are all over the place. You said once unemployment improved, people would forget about the debt and everything would be peachy.

I said unemployment will not improve anytime soon.

Then you took a left turn out into the middle of nowhere....
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Okay..but the debt problem is not related to unemployment problem.

A country with low debt but high unemployment will have same problems as country with high debt and high unemployment.

I said people will forget about debt once the economy starts growing at high rate. This growth can happen in both conditions - with high unemployment and low unemployment. In India, unemployment is always over 10% yet we grow over 6% every year. How? Due to increased spending by the remaining 90%. Both our internal debt and external debt is high, but nobody here talks about debt since we know that if we keep growing at over 6%, we will generate revenue to roll over the debt.

Debt becomes a problem only when economic production starts falling and you have negative growth. US economy is continuing to expand (jobless growth), so there is no danger of negative growth.

Unemployment is a separate issue and US govt and big business have to find creative solutions to increase spending power of US citizens. But US economy is not going to collapse because of 6-12% unemployment or due to its public debt.
*HEISENBERG*

User ID: 28152425
United States
12/12/2012 02:33 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
You are all over the place. You said once unemployment improved, people would forget about the debt and everything would be peachy.

I said unemployment will not improve anytime soon.

Then you took a left turn out into the middle of nowhere....
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Okay..but the debt problem is not related to unemployment problem.

A country with low debt but high unemployment will have same problems as country with high debt and high unemployment.

I said people will forget about debt once the economy starts growing at high rate. This growth can happen in both conditions - with high unemployment and low unemployment. In India, unemployment is always over 10% yet we grow over 6% every year. How? Due to increased spending by the remaining 90%. Both our internal debt and external debt is high, but nobody here talks about debt since we know that if we keep growing at over 6%, we will generate revenue to roll over the debt.

Debt becomes a problem only when economic production starts falling and you have negative growth. US economy is continuing to expand (jobless growth), so there is no danger of negative growth.

Unemployment is a separate issue and US govt and big business have to find creative solutions to increase spending power of US citizens. But US economy is not going to collapse because of 6-12% unemployment or due to its public debt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


Alright sir, maybe we should just agree to disagree?

Good talk.

cheers
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 02:45 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
You are all over the place. You said once unemployment improved, people would forget about the debt and everything would be peachy.

I said unemployment will not improve anytime soon.

Then you took a left turn out into the middle of nowhere....
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Okay..but the debt problem is not related to unemployment problem.

A country with low debt but high unemployment will have same problems as country with high debt and high unemployment.

I said people will forget about debt once the economy starts growing at high rate. This growth can happen in both conditions - with high unemployment and low unemployment. In India, unemployment is always over 10% yet we grow over 6% every year. How? Due to increased spending by the remaining 90%. Both our internal debt and external debt is high, but nobody here talks about debt since we know that if we keep growing at over 6%, we will generate revenue to roll over the debt.

Debt becomes a problem only when economic production starts falling and you have negative growth. US economy is continuing to expand (jobless growth), so there is no danger of negative growth.

Unemployment is a separate issue and US govt and big business have to find creative solutions to increase spending power of US citizens. But US economy is not going to collapse because of 6-12% unemployment or due to its public debt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


Alright sir, maybe we should just agree to disagree?

Good talk.

cheers
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Fine..

I'm just trying to spread some positivity in this gloomy forum peace
*HEISENBERG*

User ID: 28152425
United States
12/12/2012 02:47 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
You are all over the place. You said once unemployment improved, people would forget about the debt and everything would be peachy.

I said unemployment will not improve anytime soon.

Then you took a left turn out into the middle of nowhere....
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Okay..but the debt problem is not related to unemployment problem.

A country with low debt but high unemployment will have same problems as country with high debt and high unemployment.

I said people will forget about debt once the economy starts growing at high rate. This growth can happen in both conditions - with high unemployment and low unemployment. In India, unemployment is always over 10% yet we grow over 6% every year. How? Due to increased spending by the remaining 90%. Both our internal debt and external debt is high, but nobody here talks about debt since we know that if we keep growing at over 6%, we will generate revenue to roll over the debt.

Debt becomes a problem only when economic production starts falling and you have negative growth. US economy is continuing to expand (jobless growth), so there is no danger of negative growth.

Unemployment is a separate issue and US govt and big business have to find creative solutions to increase spending power of US citizens. But US economy is not going to collapse because of 6-12% unemployment or due to its public debt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


Alright sir, maybe we should just agree to disagree?

Good talk.

cheers
 Quoting: *HEISENBERG*


Fine..

I'm just trying to spread some positivity in this gloomy forum peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


I know. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm mad at you or something.

hf
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24011342
United States
12/12/2012 03:05 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
OP, only the stupidest of liberals can and do believe that America is not at the edge of a massive financial abyss. I won't go on about Debt to GDP ratios or even the size of the US debt or even US future financial obligations...just consider this...

$0.46 of every $1.00 the US government spends today...it borrows!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1546501
United States
12/12/2012 03:18 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
so what's your point OP?

should I "feel good" about the economy, and go out and buy some cheap crap made in China?

should I become complacent that things "are not at their worst" and just keep droning on?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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India
12/12/2012 11:27 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
OP, only the stupidest of liberals can and do believe that America is not at the edge of a massive financial abyss. I won't go on about Debt to GDP ratios or even the size of the US debt or even US future financial obligations...just consider this...

$0.46 of every $1.00 the US government spends today...it borrows!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24011342


America has been edge of a massive financial abyss for 5 years now, according to stupid conspiracy theorists, doomsayers and paultards. Shouldn't US, by now, have responded to their fears by falling into this abyss by and ended their misery?lolsign

You won't go on about debt-gdp ratios because like all paultards, you are economically illiterate and don't understand the difference between household debt and a country/business debt.

What's the big deal about $0.46 of every $1 being spent by US govt created through borrowing? The ratio is more-or-less similar for most countries. Do you know how much of total spending in a year by big corporates is out of borrowings i.e. bank credit? Why don't all companies with high debt on their balance sheet go bankrupt? Because they generate revenue out of it which is more than the interest on the debt..

But unlike corporates, countries cannot become bankrupt even if the debt becomes unsustainable. At the worst, the country may be forced to print money to pay. If production increases as a result of increase in money supply, there may be no inflation but if production doesn't increase then there will be inflation to the extent of shortfall in production in comparison to increase in money supply.

An economic collapse happens only if production collapses massively (by 40-50%) and the country doesn't have resources to increase it (for e.g. due to severe drought or natural disaster). So unless there is a huge natural disaster which wipes out the production capability of US, there is little possibility of a collapse.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 9258649
India
12/12/2012 11:37 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
so what's your point OP?

should I "feel good" about the economy, and go out and buy some cheap crap made in China?

should I become complacent that things "are not at their worst" and just keep droning on?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1546501


Yeah..why not? If you have a steady monthly income, you should save a part of it and invest it (in productive assets, not unproductive dead assets) for future and spend the rest of it for buying whatever you fancy. As an individual, that's the best you can do for your economy.

By worrying about economic collapse and saving all your money, you are only making things worse. If everyone stops spending or reduces it to bare minimum, thousands of businesses all over the country will suffer. They will be forced to either close down or lay off workers. Increase in unemployment would lead to even lesser consumer spending making the recession worse.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 29924171
United States
12/16/2012 10:33 PM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
bump
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 20572839
India
12/17/2012 01:48 AM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
The hysterical economy - Self-fulfilling recessions


Laurence J. Kotlikoff, 16 December 2012

A ‘self-fulfilling recession’ is a long-established idea in economics. This column argues that the US’s economic malaise continues to be caused by leaders’ hysteria rather than by actual engrained economic problems. Obama and Congress need to stop scaring the nation about the ‘fiscal cliff’ because, ultimately, they are coordinating expectations on there being a recession. Tackling the right policies now, and sending out the right message, will help more than hysteria.


Imagine that you are an employer. Every day you hear, “the economy’s going over a fiscal cliff. Tax hikes and spending cuts totalling $600 billion will kill the economy”. Everyone is saying it - the politicians, the media, the economists, the Fed, the CBO, the IMF. So it must be true. Sure, the Republicans and Democrats may make a deal and save the day. But these guys never agree and, meanwhile, economic doomsday - January 1st - is just weeks away.

What do you do? Do you wait for your customers to disappear, as they surely will, or do get a head start and start firing now - or at least stop hiring? You get a head start And in so doing, you make the prophecy come true. Other firms see less demand from your erstwhile and prospective workers. But the other firms - there are 30 million of them - all do the same thing. So, voilà, you see fewer customers and weren’t all the pundits right. And weren’t you smart to get a leg up?

Self-fulfilling recessions

Economists use different words to describe the economy’s ability to freak out and spontaneously contract based on nothing more than hearsay. ‘Sunspot equilibria’, ‘multiple equilibria’, ‘coordination failure’, and ‘animal spirits’ (coined by Keynes) (cf. Shell 2008, Diamond 1982, Chamley 2003, Keynes 1936) are all used to reference what Franklin D Roosevelt told us we had most to fear - fear itself.

My book, The Hysterical Economy, describes this problem. It argues that:

The economy goes nuts.
The economy does not need a good reason to go nuts.
A state of confidence is a precious public good.

The economy certainly went nuts in 2008. Around the developed world, 27 major financial companies had near-death experiences. Yet only one -Lehman Brothers - actually closed down. True, there was no loss of life or physical property, but Lehman’s collapse struck panic into the hearts of many, particularly leaders in Washington.

President Bush once said of the economy, “this sucker is gonna blow”. Sure enough, it blew as employers got a head start by firing 8.5 million people over the next 19 months. Had they fired all 8.5 million the day after Lehman went under, everyone would have realised this was coordinated panic. But the panic built over time as more and more ‘experts’ and ‘leaders’ continued to talk about the ‘Great Depression’ -- two words that were searched extensively on Google in the days and months after Lehman died.
And now, fiscal cliff hysteria

Today we’re Googling ‘fiscal cliff’ -- two words strung together by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke. ‘Fiscal cliff’ is panicking the public and justifying yet further delay in dealing with our country’s enormous fiscal problems.

Let us be clear; absent collective panic, our economy will not implode if we move from running a 7% of GDP deficit to a 3% of GDP deficit. The Federal Government ran deficits of 3% or less during most of the post-war era and the economic sky did not fall in.

Running a 3% of GDP deficit is no reason to go nuts. Indeed, the real reason to go nuts is that we should be running a 5% of GDP surplus to deal with the enormous Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid bills looming over the horizon.

Ten thousand baby boomers are retiring each day. Within two decades all 78 million will be retired and collecting $40,000 per person (in today’s dollars), on average, from these three programs. These and other projected expenditures combined with our low average tax rates - historically speaking - have produced not a fiscal cliff but a fiscal abyss. The fiscal gap separating the present values of all future expenditures and all future revenues is now $222 trillion.

As we justify doing far too little far too late, the fiscal gap, the only economically appropriate measure of our government’s true indebtedness, is growing at a colossal pace - by $11 trillion over the past year alone. To put $11 trillion in perspective, it’s as large as the entire stock of official debt in the hands of the public. So if we want to panic, there is something real to panic about. It’s the fiscal abyss, not the fiscal cliff.
America needs leadership

But, of course, what is needed is not panic, but leadership. The President and other politicians need to stop scaring the nation. In so doing they are coordinating everyone’s expectations on recession and, thereby, assuring it will come. Two thirds of the public are now convinced the economy will face major problems come January 1st (Cowan 2012), whilst corporate America is already cutting back on investing and hiring (Son 2012).

If Congress remains deadlocked - which seems likely - and recession ensues, both parties will say “I told you so”. What they will miss is that their telling us so, not making minor fiscal adjustments relative to what’s needed, will likely be the true source of the recession. Our economy is crazy enough. We don’t need hysterical leaders to make it more so.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28781379
United States
12/17/2012 01:59 AM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
If all else fails accuse your accusers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25708624


So far the only things that have failed are the doomsy fantasies of conspiracy theorists - from microchipping to world-is-going-to-end-in-2012s226
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


right...but everything else is dead on!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 20572839
India
12/17/2012 02:11 AM
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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
If all else fails accuse your accusers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25708624


So far the only things that have failed are the doomsy fantasies of conspiracy theorists - from microchipping to world-is-going-to-end-in-2012s226
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


right...but everything else is dead on!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781379


Nah..nothing else has happened that you guys keep ranting about.

There hasn't been hyperinflation yet..and no possibility in future too. Dollar hasn't crashed, there is only regular recession, no great depression. No AMERO, no FEMA camps, no martial law..you still have right to carry guns, despite regular carnages in your schools.

Not a single conspiracy theory has come true tounge
thetrickybigguy
say hello to my little friend...

User ID: 2366348
United States
12/17/2012 07:24 AM

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Re: How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering US Toward the Fiscal Cliff
If all else fails accuse your accusers?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25708624


So far the only things that have failed are the doomsy fantasies of conspiracy theorists - from microchipping to world-is-going-to-end-in-2012s226
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9258649


right...but everything else is dead on!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781379


Nah..nothing else has happened that you guys keep ranting about.

There hasn't been hyperinflation yet..and no possibility in future too. Dollar hasn't crashed, there is only regular recession, no great depression. No AMERO, no FEMA camps, no martial law..you still have right to carry guns, despite regular carnages in your schools.

Not a single conspiracy theory has come true tounge
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20572839


this coming from somebody that pours cow piss over his head....

mind your own fucking business stinky and worry about your nasty ass country.
Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living. ~

Life is about choices, you get to make them each and every day of your life. ~

Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.~

Only in America... do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.~

“When a government is dependent for money upon the bankers, they and not the government leaders control the nation. This is because the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Financiers are without patriotism and without decency.”

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