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Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors

 
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Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Comparisons between the MT and other translations


The major advantage to the Mechanical Translation for the student of the Bible is that it consistently translates each Hebrew word in the exact same way each time it occurs in the text. This allows the reader to see the Hebrew text, without even knowing Hebrew, in its pure form void from any personal interpretation being interjected into the text. Below are a few examples from the book of Genesis comparing the Mechanical Translation (MT) and the Revised Mechanical Translation (RMT) with Young’s Literal Translation (YLT), King James Version (KJV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV) and the Stone’s Edition Tenach (SET).



Genesis 1:1

MT: in~Summit he~did~Fatten "Elohiym [Powers]" At the~Sky~s2 and~At the~Land


RMT: in the summit "Elohiym [Powers]" fattened the sky and the land,

YLT: In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth

KJV: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

RSV: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

SET: In the beginning of God’s creating the heavens and the earth.

Hebrew words related to "time" are also used for "space." Therefore, the Hebrew word reshiyt, derived from the word rosh, can mean the head, top or beginning of space or time. The MT uses the word "summit" to translate this word as it better describes the original meaning of the Hebrew. Psalm 111:10 reads "The fear of YHWH is the reshiyt of wisdom." The more Hebraic meaning of this is that "the fear of YHWH" is the summit, or height, of wisdom.

The Hebrew verb bara is usually translated as "create." However, the idea of "creation" is an abstract word which would be a foreign concept to the Ancient Hebrews. This very same verb is used in 1 Samuel 2:29 where it is translated correctly as "fat." The Hebrew concrete meaning of this word is to make something fat or to fill it up. The context of this verse is Elohiym’s "filling" up of the skies with the sun, moon, stars and birds, the water with fish and taniyn (an unknown serpent like creature) and the earth with plants, animals and man. We also read in verse two that Elohiym "filled" the skies and the land because "the land was empty." Only the Young’s Literal Translation uses the word "preparing," closer to the Hebraic meaning of this word, to translate the word bara.

The YLT and SET translate the verb bara as a participle (…ing) where the Hebrew is not.


Genesis 2:7

MT: and~he~will~Mold "YHWH [He exists]" "Elohiym [Powers]" At the~Human Powder From the~Ground and~he~will~Exhale in~Nose~s2~him Breath Life~s and~he~will~Exist the~Human to~Being Life


RMT: and "YHWH [He exists]" of "Elohiym [Powers]" molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a being of life,

YLT: And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

KJV: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

RSV: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

SET: And HASHEM God formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the soul of life; and man became a living being.

The name YHWH literally means "he exists" and is derived from the Hebrew verb hawah meaning to "exist." However, the KJV and RSV translate the name YHWH as "the LORD" when the Hebrew word has no connection to the meaning of the word "lord." The SET also replaces the name YHWH with the word HASHEM (a Hebrew word meaning "the name").

The Hebrew YHWH Elohiym is always translated as "LORD God" (KJV, RSV), "Jehovah God" (YLT) or "HASHEM God" (SET) in the standard translations. In Hebrew grammar, two nouns placed together are in the construct state. For instance, in Psalm 24:10 the Hebrew phrase YHWH tseva’ot (the same structure as YHWH Elohiym) is correctly translated in its construct state-"LORD of Hosts." The MT chooses to translate YHWH Elohiym in the same manner-"YHWH of Elohiym."

The KJV and RSV translate the Hebrew nephesh hhayah as "living soul" in this verse while in Genesis 1:24 they translate this very same phrase as "living creature." The SET translates this phrase as "living being" here but as also translates it as "living creature" in Genesis 1:24. Only the YLT remains consistent in how this phrase is translated in these two verses.


Genesis 2:17

MT: and~from~Tree the~Discernment Functional and~Dysfunctional Not you(ms)~will~Eat From~him Given.that in~Day you(ms)~>~Eat From~him >~Die you(ms)~will~Die


RMT: and from the tree of the discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him given that in the day you eat from him a dying you will die,

YLT: and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

KJV: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

RSV: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.

SET: but of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, you must not eat thereof; for on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die.

The English words "good" and "evil" (or bad) do not completely convey the Hebraic meaning of the word tov and ra which are more related to the function of a person, place or thing rather than their appearance or morality as implied in the English.




Genesis 3:15

MT: and~Hostility i~did~Set.down Between~you(ms) and~Between the~Woman and~Between Seed~you(ms) and~Between Seed~her He he~will~Fall.upon~you(ms) Head and~You(ms) you(ms)~will~Fall.upon~him Heel


RMT: and hostility I sat down between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed, he will fall upon you a head and you will fall upon him a heel,

YLT: and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'

KJV: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

RSV: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel

SET: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will pound your head, and you will bite his heel.

The literal meaning of the second half of this verse is that "the seed of the woman will drop a head on the serpent and the serpent will drop a heel on the seed of the woman," which is the complete opposite of the reading in the KJV, RSV and the SET.

The Hebrew verb shuph (fall upon) is used twice in this verse. The SET translates this verb as "pound" in one place and "bite" in another.


Genesis 4:1

MT: and~the~Human he~had~Know At "Hhawah [Living]" Woman~him and~she~will~Conceive and~she~will~Bring.forth At "Qayin [Acquired]" and~she~will~Say i~did~Purchase Man At "YHWH [He exists]"


RMT: and the human had known "Hhawah [Living]" his woman and she conceived and she brought forth "Qayin [Acquired]" and she said, I purchased a man with "YHWH [He exists]",

YLT: And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, `I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'

KJV: And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
RSV: Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."

SET: Now the man had known his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have acquired a man with HASHEM."

The Hebrew verb qanah means to "acquire something through a purchase or exchange" and not simply "get" as other translations have implied.

The name "Eve" comes directly from the Greek Septuagint (2,000 year old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) and not the Hebrew text which is Hhawa (or Hhava). This is true for most all names such as the name Seth which comes from the Greek but is Shet in the Hebrew) and Moses from the Greek where it is Mosheh in the Hebrew.

The KJV has added the word "from," the RSV the word "help" and Young’s the word "by" to the text, which do not appear in the Hebrew, in order to "fix" the text so that it reads more favorably. The Hebrew text can only be translated two ways, "I have purchased a man with YHWH" or "I have purchased the man YHWH."

The KJV employs the use of italics, supposedly to indicate when an English word has been added to the text for clarification. However, I have not found this to be very consistent. In this verse the word "from" has been added to the text by the translators but it is not italicized.




more here:
[link to www.mechanical-translation.org]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/18/2012 12:55 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
shameless bump
Life and Love

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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
unshameless bump, because this is very nicely done, OP!

bump
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/19/2012 02:20 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
bump for a break from the massacre.


this is good news for a change.
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Word today have more than one meaning, such as cracker or water or door. Context has to be read into sentence structure. This was done and has been long known of the Hebrew & English book of Genesis.

[link to www.apostolic-churches.net]

[link to www.logosapostolic.org]

The KJV is that word for word translation correctly to English. Newer versions are often a paraphrase edition, or use different mss.
Life and Love

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12/19/2012 04:07 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Word today have more than one meaning, such as cracker or water or door. Context has to be read into sentence structure. This was done and has been long known of the Hebrew & English book of Genesis.

[link to www.apostolic-churches.net]

[link to www.logosapostolic.org]

The KJV is that word for word translation correctly to English. Newer versions are often a paraphrase edition, or use different mss.
 Quoting: - 1331499


I must take great exception to what you are saying.

"For too long we've read scripture with 19th century eyes and 16th century questions. It's time we get back to reading with 1st century eyes [or in the case of Genesis, back even further] and 21st century questions." - N. T. Wright
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 21291600
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12/19/2012 04:10 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Word today have more than one meaning, such as cracker or water or door. Context has to be read into sentence structure. This was done and has been long known of the Hebrew & English book of Genesis.

[link to www.apostolic-churches.net]

[link to www.logosapostolic.org]

The KJV is that word for word translation correctly to English. Newer versions are often a paraphrase edition, or use different mss.
 Quoting: - 1331499


I must take great exception to what you are saying.

"For too long we've read scripture with 19th century eyes and 16th century questions. It's time we get back to reading with 1st century eyes [or in the case of Genesis, back even further] and 21st century questions." - N. T. Wright
 Quoting: Life and Love


yes!
Anonymous Coward
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12/19/2012 04:21 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Yes, the beginning and the end is all about Christ. What an awesome hope we have as sons and daughters of God.
Life and Love

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12/19/2012 04:22 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Yes, the beginning and the end is all about Christ. What an awesome hope we have as sons and daughters of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21195758


applause applause applause
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
MHz

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12/19/2012 04:23 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Hebrew words related to "time" are also used for "space." Therefore, the Hebrew word reshiyt, derived from the word rosh, can mean the head, top or beginning of space or time. The MT uses the word "summit" to translate this word as it better describes the original meaning of the Hebrew. Psalm 111:10 reads "The fear of YHWH is the reshiyt of wisdom." The more Hebraic meaning of this is that "the fear of YHWH" is the summit, or height, of wisdom.
 Quoting: Salt

The first 3 books and the last 3 books of the Bible cover who God is. The image and likeness that are part of many inherited from God is image (5 fingers head body etc) and likeness (male and female being considered to be 'one flesh'. The beginning is about the earth alone, God nor heaven is covered in the 6 days of creation, the end of day 1 is the last of that day so the chapter covers day 2 and on in greater detail. Revelation clues us into what the new (3rd)heaven is about and when the (perfected)earth begins. Vs 1 is actually the 2nd heaven because birds fly in heaven also and their limit is the clouds of this earth.
The Hebrew verb bara is usually translated as "create." However, the idea of "creation" is an abstract word which would be a foreign concept to the Ancient Hebrews. This very same verb is used in 1 Samuel 2:29 where it is translated correctly as "fat." The Hebrew concrete meaning of this word is to make something fat or to fill it up. The context of this verse is Elohiym’s "filling" up of the skies with the sun, moon, stars and birds, the water with fish and taniyn (an unknown serpent like creature) and the earth with plants, animals and man. We also read in verse two that Elohiym "filled" the skies and the land because "the land was empty." Only the Young’s Literal Translation uses the word "preparing," closer to the Hebraic meaning of this word, to translate the word bara.
 Quoting:


The Great White Throne event is considered to be 'a day' but because of the volume of people that get addressed by God is huge it would take the equal of 1,000 of our years, The 1,000 year reign is also considered to be 'one day' because the OT has the wrath at the end as being the same so only one such event is in prophecy. That is the justification for what is below.

The exit from the garden was the first event of day 8 and that was in 4,005BC, in the form of 1,000=1 it would be 4.(point)000 (approx) The start of day 7 was a day before so this happens, 4.0 becomes 40.0, that becomes 400.0 and then 4,000.0 all the way back (6 steps) to the beginning of day 2 , 4,005,000BC which is on earth after it has experienced light from the sun causing the first day/night cycle. Re:20 is when the last such cycle is see by man.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.

The YLT and SET translate the verb bara as a participle (…ing) where the Hebrew is not.
 Quoting:

One other version is also different enough that it should be read, not sure who did the words in brackets. The point of this will lead to how it renders Ge:3:15, I see it as 'bruise' being the same words but one is temporary and the other is eternity in length.
[link to www.biblestudytools.com]
1 In the beginning God made of nought heaven and earth. (In the beginning God made out of nothing the heavens and the earth.)


Genesis 2:7

MT: and~he~will~Mold "YHWH [He exists]" "Elohiym [Powers]" At the~Human Powder From the~Ground and~he~will~Exhale in~Nose~s2~him Breath Life~s and~he~will~Exist the~Human to~Being Life


RMT: and "YHWH [He exists]" of "Elohiym [Powers]" molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a being of life,

YLT: And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

KJV: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

RSV: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

SET: And HASHEM God formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the soul of life; and man became a living being.

The name YHWH literally means "he exists" and is derived from the Hebrew verb hawah meaning to "exist." However, the KJV and RSV translate the name YHWH as "the LORD" when the Hebrew word has no connection to the meaning of the word "lord." The SET also replaces the name YHWH with the word HASHEM (a Hebrew word meaning "the name").
 Quoting:

The caps are the difference, all caps id for 'the one true' God (as is GOD) and Lord can also be used if no other reference is there, LORD said to the Lord would be GOD speaking to somebody He has authority over. That would be Christ. Re:is creation from the POV of the one true God and the version in Ge:2 is from the POV of the one who is 'us' in Ge:1, the Holy Spirit. The witness of Christ is in Proverbs 8 which is His authority to be the perfect Judge when mankind is up for immortal life.

Proverb:8:1:
Doth not wisdom cry?
and understanding put forth her voice?

The Hebrew YHWH Elohiym is always translated as "LORD God" (KJV, RSV), "Jehovah God" (YLT) or "HASHEM God" (SET) in the standard translations. In Hebrew grammar, two nouns placed together are in the construct state. For instance, in Psalm 24:10 the Hebrew phrase YHWH tseva’ot (the same structure as YHWH Elohiym) is correctly translated in its construct state-"LORD of Hosts." The MT chooses to translate YHWH Elohiym in the same manner-"YHWH of Elohiym."
 Quoting:

Proverbs 8 says it was Christ that Adam saw in the Garden as no man has ever seen God. Christ would not have been on earth in that role after the exit from teh garden. Re:21 and 22 have Him appear as an Angel and that is the form Adam would have seen. Eve never heard heard God (Adam did) nor did she ever see Christ as her birth was the last event before day 7 started.

Proverb:8:29:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverb:8:30:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Proverb:8:31:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.

The KJV and RSV translate the Hebrew nephesh hhayah as "living soul" in this verse while in Genesis 1:24 they translate this very same phrase as "living creature." The SET translates this phrase as "living being" here but as also translates it as "living creature" in Genesis 1:24. Only the YLT remains consistent in how this phrase is translated in these two verses.
 Quoting:

As in Ge:1 God spoke and the Holy Spirit made it happen. The end of that beginning came earlier than what the original plan called for. Eat from the tree of knowledge about 3 days before the tree of life was producing fruit. Since death is now part of the path this verse below is what happens at death. The Holy Spirit is what returns to God and the resurrection is that same spirit returning. That is not how it worked at the cross.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Genesis 2:17

MT: and~from~Tree the~Discernment Functional and~Dysfunctional Not you(ms)~will~Eat From~him Given.that in~Day you(ms)~>~Eat From~him >~Die you(ms)~will~Die


RMT: and from the tree of the discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him given that in the day you eat from him a dying you will die,

YLT: and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

KJV: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

RSV: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.

SET: but of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, you must not eat thereof; for on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die.

The English words "good" and "evil" (or bad) do not completely convey the Hebraic meaning of the word tov and ra which are more related to the function of a person, place or thing rather than their appearance or morality as implied in the English.
 Quoting:

The law given to Angels is what the earth operated on, that same law will return for the new earth, the first to be under it are the ones in Re:20:4 and they be on this earth as a static population to witness the end of the serpent in Ge:3. The new earth was always part of the 'whole plan' as is some not qualifying for like in the first part of it, Isa:65.
Since the 'servants' are the ones alive for the 1,000 years then it must be the ones under punishment that are undergoing

Genesis 3:15

MT: and~Hostility i~did~Set.down Between~you(ms) and~Between the~Woman and~Between Seed~you(ms) and~Between Seed~her He he~will~Fall.upon~you(ms) Head and~You(ms) you(ms)~will~Fall.upon~him Heel


RMT: and hostility I sat down between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed, he will fall upon you a head and you will fall upon him a heel,

YLT: and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'

KJV: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

RSV: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel

SET: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will pound your head, and you will bite his heel.

The literal meaning of the second half of this verse is that "the seed of the woman will drop a head on the serpent and the serpent will drop a heel on the seed of the woman," which is the complete opposite of the reading in the KJV, RSV and the SET.

The Hebrew verb shuph (fall upon) is used twice in this verse. The SET translates this verb as "pound" in one place and "bite" in another.
 Quoting:

What??
A bruise is an injury to 'a living being', for a 'relative of Eve' is referencing the same being in both instances. Eve is one flesh with Adam so both die. For Satan it was 'all the days of his life' in the previous verse. The end of his life is the judgment in Re:20. The fiery lake is the place for beings of the 2nd birth. The last of that reign was when the 10 Commandments were brought in on stone tablets and then the last of the giants were killed off.



Genesis 4:1

MT: and~the~Human he~had~Know At "Hhawah [Living]" Woman~him and~she~will~Conceive and~she~will~Bring.forth At "Qayin [Acquired]" and~she~will~Say i~did~Purchase Man At "YHWH [He exists]"


RMT: and the human had known "Hhawah [Living]" his woman and she conceived and she brought forth "Qayin [Acquired]" and she said, I purchased a man with "YHWH [He exists]",

YLT: And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, `I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'

KJV: And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
RSV: Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."

SET: Now the man had known his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have acquired a man with HASHEM."

The Hebrew verb qanah means to "acquire something through a purchase or exchange" and not simply "get" as other translations have implied.
 Quoting:

Having a child has never changed, the pain Eve was cursed with is the same pain given to her in Re:12. Her seed was Mary and the few verses summersie the 3 1/2 years before the cross.

The name "Eve" comes directly from the Greek Septuagint (2,000 year old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) and not the Hebrew text which is Hhawa (or Hhava). This is true for most all names such as the name Seth which comes from the Greek but is Shet in the Hebrew) and Moses from the Greek where it is Mosheh in the Hebrew.
 Quoting:

That must have come as a blow when electronic searching came along.

The KJV has added the word "from," the RSV the word "help" and Young’s the word "by" to the text, which do not appear in the Hebrew, in order to "fix" the text so that it reads more favorably. The Hebrew text can only be translated two ways, "I have purchased a man with YHWH" or "I have purchased the man YHWH."
 Quoting:

Ge:2:20:
And Adam gave names to all cattle,
and to the fowl of the air,
and to every beast of the field;
but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

The text from Ge:1 is why a female was there first, as 'God said' and the Spirit 'did' when Adam got dominion over the 'other flesh' Eve became the one that would make the words become real as far dominion went.

The KJV employs the use of italics, supposedly to indicate when an English word has been added to the text for clarification. However, I have not found this to be very consistent. In this verse the word "from" has been added to the text by the translators but it is not italicized.
 Quoting:

Not in my version and the preface say there were no clues left on purpose, it made the Scriptures speak for themselves, a person either understood it or they didn't. Returning to the ones not understood means you had more passages to understand first. Time varies on that aspect.
MHz

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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Yes, the beginning and the end is all about Christ. What an awesome hope we have as sons and daughters of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21195758

Getting a little ahead of the game aren't you?
To become that you have to be able to visit the river in Eze:47 before the stench of being in the land of the enemy is washed off. To get the right vision you would have to view a literal resurrection in Eze:37 as being the return from the land of the enemy when only a few will be spared that part of the journey. (it means the resurrection results in a whole house rather than a remnant)
The reason the 2nd birth is held out of range from us at the moment is because if we sinned after that grace could not save us from death and for that group it is not the grave it is the fiery lake with the serpent. The first chose to receive that title are gathered as children and the two witnesses are their teachers until the 7th trump is 4 days away from sounding. That is the day that anybody is raised from the dead and the 144,000 are there to see that happen. Their viewpoint is the mountain that Moses and Elias were seen on. (north of the Sea of Galilee)

Re:7:3:
Saying,
Hurt not the earth,
neither the sea,
nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Re:7:4:
And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Pure speculation but would the 144,000 be able to determine how many are resurrected in Eze:37. 72,000 pairs that would be an exit from the grave and the total might be 10x that number or 1.44M or more likely 1.44B as all the families of the ones named (except giants)after exodus that had any captives means all their relatives become part of the ones making up the 12 Tribes. The rate they grew might even be able to be calculated (very roughly) by how fast their numbers rebounded in all the 'turmoil' found in the OT.

The only reason any of this part matters is the population that starts the 1,000 years are the same ones that see Satan sent to the lake. To join the whole house of Israel is the Church which is a remnant of the Nations doing what Zec:14 describes. Both are static in number because after the GWT event they both reside in New Jerusalem in the New Earth and are Priests and Kings to the ever increasing population that live outside the city walls. The Jerusalem in Isa:65 is New Jerusalem.
MHz

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12/19/2012 05:00 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
bump for a break from the massacre.


this is good news for a change.
 Quoting: Salt


Breaks over lol
Uncle Mikey

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05/20/2013 06:08 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
The Hebrew text can only be translated two ways, "I have purchased a man with YHWH" or "I have purchased the man YHWH."
 Quoting: Salt


oops2
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/22/2013 06:49 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
The Hebrew text can only be translated two ways, "I have purchased a man with YHWH" or "I have purchased the man YHWH."
 Quoting: Salt


oops2
 Quoting: Uncle Mikey


yeah, i know how it sounds.

lol...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/30/2013 10:23 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
bump to put in active threads
grimmlord

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06/30/2013 10:53 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Salty ,

if you want to get the correct gist of the translation ,

it's easier , cheaper and faster just to study with
arnold murray at the shepherdschapel.com

just sayin' ,

the world is complicated enough and you only gets
a limited amount of time to nagivate it ...

"the truth points to itself" = www.shepherdschapel.com
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/30/2013 11:00 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
Salty ,

if you want to get the correct gist of the translation ,

it's easier , cheaper and faster just to study with
arnold murray at the shepherdschapel.com

just sayin' ,

the world is complicated enough and you only gets
a limited amount of time to nagivate it ...

 Quoting: grimmlord


no arnold murray for me
he is false teacher and white supremacist
Interested Reader 1

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06/30/2013 11:23 PM

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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
It just goes to show that it is valueable to use several translations in study. No set version of scriptures has all the clarity it needs for sound doctrine.

If more people would do this kind of comparison with the written word there would be more unity in the doctrines and teachings of Christ and His people.
Interested Reader 1
grimmlord

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07/01/2013 05:10 AM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
no arnold murray for me
he is false teacher and white supremacist
 Quoting: Salt


i think you've been swayed by the opinions of people
who hate the shepherdschapel .

at the fall and spring fellowship get togethers ,
a ton of blacks , hispanics and orientals show up .

even took me by surprise the first time i went .

at any rate , i will reiterate that arnold murray has
an excellent grasp of the nuances of the original
hebrew and greek - especially the idioms .

i respect your point of view , Salt , and i respect
you as a human being and sovereign individual and master
of your own destiny , and i wish you the best of luck
figuring out how the universe works .

"the truth points to itself" = www.shepherdschapel.com
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/01/2013 08:05 AM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors
no arnold murray for me
he is false teacher and white supremacist
 Quoting: Salt


i think you've been swayed by the opinions of people
who hate the shepherdschapel .

at the fall and spring fellowship get togethers ,
a ton of blacks , hispanics and orientals show up .

even took me by surprise the first time i went .

at any rate , i will reiterate that arnold murray has
an excellent grasp of the nuances of the original
hebrew and greek - especially the idioms .

i respect your point of view , Salt , and i respect
you as a human being and sovereign individual and master
of your own destiny , and i wish you the best of luck
figuring out how the universe works .

 Quoting: grimmlord


arnold murray is a false teacher
he is a white supremacist

this is fact
his teachings are not scriptural
his involvements financially and otherwise in the KKK and other white supremacist groups is document

look it up for yourself.

i will not turn this thread into an arnold murray debate
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/25/2013 10:45 PM
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Re: Mechanical Translations vs Other Translations of Genesis - Physics of creation, meaning of "Elohiym" and other important factors

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