The Danish side of the Cartoon Crisis

" Now, I am your slave ! "

What an emotional drama again.

With Kay in the star role.
Have a nice day!

what a rotten thing to do
on Sol's thread

And once again diplatoriumness drags a thread down to retardical bottom with hiser big sack of whine that heshe carries for just such a purpose. It's all about Himer.

And I'm no better for doing it to this thread as well, I apologize for that. There is plenty of good debate in the vast majority of replies here. Please let's not lose it.

I apologize too, Sol!

Pat Robertson says Europe is committing racial suicide
by John in DC - 2/07/2006 09:23:00 PM

And he has such swell timing for making another of his thinly-veild racist attacks on Muslims.


Robertson: Europe committing "racial suicide"

Summary: Pat Robertson said, "Europe is right now in the midst of racial suicide because of the declining birth rate."

During the February 6 edition of Christian Broadcasting Network's (CBN) The 700 Club, host Pat Robertson said that "Europe is right now in the midst of racial suicide because of the declining birth rate." Robertson blamed the declining birth rate on the existential philosophy of Jean-Paul Sartre, which, according to Robertson, "has permeated the intellectual thinking of Europe" and has left Europeans without "a faith in the future."

From the February 6 edition of CBN's The 700 Club:

ROBERTSON: Studies that I have read indicate that having babies is a sign of a faith in the future. You know, unless you believe in the future, you're not going to take the trouble of raising a child, educating a child, doing something. If there is no future, why do it? Well, unless you believe in God, there's really no future. And when you go back to the existentialism of Jean-Paul Sartre, the whole idea of this desperate nightmare we are in -- you know, that we are in this prison, and it has no hope, no exit. That kind of philosophy has permeated the intellectual thinking of Europe, and hopefully it doesn't come here. But nevertheless, ladies and gentlemen, Europe is right now in the midst of racial suicide because of the declining birth rate. And they just can't get it together. Why? There's no hope.


—S.G.
Comments (32) Show

how much you wanna bet that those 3 'clerics' who made those fake cartoons are agent provocateurs?

it looks to me like someone behind the scenes is smearing all of the religions... kenton has opened a couple of thread as to how 'reverends' like pat robertson are secretly smearing quistianity...

and that's only the tip of the iceberg, as far as i'm concerned...

hello?

M*O*S*S*A*D

dilat,, kay, shr



will you guys knock it off! you woke me up! all of you just start getting along ,, you are all my friends,, and i hate to see this!

and sol writes kick ass posts,,, anyways,, come on ,, group hug,, i won't pinch

Oh how we love our discord!

just hoping to get things back on track,, sol is very well thought out,,

Hi, Malu!

Yes, I think that Andy's point is excellent.

It seems like the three extra photos are what really made everyone so upset.

Who made them?

Why haven't anyone investigated that?

We assume it was the Danish clerics, that is what Sol said, but do we really know?

I wonder why Robertson says such awful stuff, really nasty stuff.

i was reading somewhere else on this forum about these three photos today,,, can't remember where? rrrrrrrrrr

anyways,,, i would not get caught in details,, stand back and look at the bigger picture,, and you can see where we are heading!

Usually the question is 'who benefits' but I see no benefitting here.

Haha, don't worry about the off-topic, I was pretty much done with this anyways, and off-topic threads sometime turn out very interesting.

Asgardhr:
"Oh how we love our discord!"

The self-destructive nature of the human psyche - reflected in society at large these days ;) I take it you'll agree with *that* as well, my fellow Dane - Magister Mundi Sum (who possibly chose an every more arrogant user name than myself!) - lol, I *was* finished with my online postings, but we can take our debate here if you wish, maybe we can agree with the points in an orderly environment better.

You say, quite rightly and I of course concede, three things that I do that are unreasonable:

1) Speak for our entire country, while especially leaving out the voice of the integrated muslims, as if there's only a few.

2) Expect the integration process to go smoothly, and when it doesn't, sign it off as a failure.

3) Completely shrug off the point that Muslims are not treated as well as Christians, Jews, or atheists in Danish society, or in Europe as a whole. Islam has absolutely horrible connotations in the West.

My answer to that is that you make the classic mistake of assuming that I'm simply talking about muslims in Denmark in 2006. People can, and do, live in relative peace. For the moment, there's no existential crisis in Denmark because Danes are still 90% of the population. You and I also know exactly when multiculturalism works - in highschool for example, 500 educated and relatively tolerant young people from 50+ countries worked together with almost no ethnic tension. I actually enjoyed that multicultural experience, as I'm sure you did.

That's a unique situation though, and in the greater scheme of things, an anomaly.

I dare you to go to the suburbs of France, however, and try to live that philosophy. I dare you to buy a farm in Zimbabwe and pretend that you being non-African doesn't matter. I dare you to go to any muslim country and tell them that they shouldn't make their women wear veils. I dare you to go to etc, etc, etc, anywhere outside of Europe and expect to find the same kind of "tolerance" among the natives.

*No one* likes being told how to live by perceived "foreigners", and it's only a unique mix of historical factors that have made Europeans so tolerant in the last 30 years (post WWII guilt for run-away-nationalism, unprecedented credit-based economic prosperity, and a media that effectively silences dissent by calling it racist and nazi).

All those factors are coming to an end, however. In 2006, it's not a crisis yet. I honestly believe that the crisis WILL accelerate though, as these unique tolerance-creating-conditions start to disappear. By all appearances, Europeans are now starting to realize that they don't want Islam in our countries. It's not my fault, it's not the fault of reactionaries, it's not the fault of anyone - that's just human nature playing itself out. Add to that competition for jobs, no money for the welfare state, etc...

All societies are naturally predisposed to tribalism and us-vs-them mentalities, and if they're not, then they cease to exist as societies. They're then replaced by a more "natural" mentality - which in Europe's case, seems to be Islam. just like any animal species that refuses to defend itself is eventually made extinct by the process of natural selection and is replaced in the food chain by an animal that actually DOES defend itself. Even Buddhist Tibet tried to militarily defend itself from the Chinese invasion army, though not very effectively obviously, which is why they're being culturally genocided as we speak - but at least they fought :P

My solution is peaceful separation, because I see the alternative as either war or just a slow and masochistic cultural surrender until nothing is left of the Europe that was. I think you under-estimate the scale and power of Islam in Europe. By 2020, 50% of everyone under the age of 18 in Holland will be of (largely muslim) immigrant origin. You can't seriously tell me that by 2020, Holland will be able to have a civilized and moderate discussion about cultural issues... I wish it could, but I seriously doubt it. Islam missed that whole "Renaissance/Enlightenment" period and it also missed the destructive wars that convinced Europeans to "live and let live" when it comes to religion.

Your last point that

Magister Mundi Sum:
"In short, yes, I agree with you that we're in trouble. I just do not see the problem as Western values vs. Islamic values. I see it entirely as an engineered crisis, in which people who preach the ''It's us vs. them!!'' dogma are going to realize that their dream of a final showdown will, in reality, turn out to be a sickening nightmare, and that this was not a conflict spawned by the radical few, not the masses.

You challenged someone earlier to think of a 'better solution', or alternative. I can give you none. I can, however, tell you what I myself am going to do - wash my hands of this madness. If or when WW3 breaks out because of this, I'll go find a nice cave to hide in. I'll rest easy with the knowledge that I did not help stir up this shitstorm.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the above before I go on."

I agree, it's going to be a sickening nightmare, because rational decisions will probably not be followed by either side if things are allowed to escalate. It's also very much an engineered crisis, but like i've said before, this is just the end-game - the engineering began with whoever thought it was a good idea to let in 20+ million muslims. Today it seems that if the choice is to commit cultural suicide to avoid being killed in a potential culture war... well, I'll choose to join those who fight, under certain circumstances, anyways, as long as we're the "defender" in the conflict.

As for washing your hands, typical liberal speak, lol! Try to make a utopia and tell people it'll be ok, look "oohhh ahhh" it's going to be so nice and happy, different cultures living together side by side, but then wash your hands when there's screaming and death as a direct result of this doomed-to-failure policy :P (sorry, inside joke)

This whole thing could blow over, but the underlying issues will remain, and we'll just continue to see these kinds of things until they're solved. With each such crisis, be it the French riots or the Cartoon crisis, Muslims and Europeans will become more extreme in their views. Eventually, we'll all have to make a stand of some kind. I'm making a stand for non-violent separation before the shooting starts, though I know that'll never happen...

In the words of Dante,

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

;)

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."


The next most obvious try to manipulate us into the big conflict. Of course the Ill-uminati want us to choose sides so that they have enough poor warriors for the slaughter, means they can get their meal from sucking up our souls and blood.

But many here can see that anyway.

Why is it that everybody seems to have a problem coming to terms with believing that the Islamics actualy do want war with western nations. It's the MOSSAD, it's a pys-op, it's whatever. It's like blaming the fuse on a bomb for the explosion and ensuing destruction.

Try and imagine that you live in one of these Islamic nations and your life blows because you have little chance for decent employment and your family has problems making ends meet and your gov't will kick your ass anytime it feels like it and there's plenty of hardship and little hope and all along your religion is telling you it's our fault and that if the world was Allah's world, things would be a whole lot better. Imagine growing up with that, being born into it, becoming a young man or woman with that retorict being a huge part of your life, all your life, it's your religion. Think you would believe it? You bet you would.

Think of it like a bunch of balloons, that just keep inflating. You take a pin and pop one, or two, or more, makes a loud pop, so it's the pins fault or whoever the popper is but, someone had to make those balloons, someone had to inflate them and keep the pressure building and eventualy those balloons will pop by themselves, maybe a few at a time, or maybe a lot in one big pop.

This is one bigass bunch of balloons.

[link to www.kurier.at]

Yep, SHR, I agree. The muslims that we here on GLP might have met and talked to are the highly educated and moderate muslims, for the most part. People like Dilatoriness just imagines that because right now the West is the most obvious aggressor by being in Iraq, Israel, and Afghanistan then the Muslims are for the most part morally superior and peaceful. She doesn't realize that MANY in the Arab world would like a war, if they only thought they had a chance of winning it.

It's also easy to feel sorry for the minority of muslims in Denmark for example, who have no real power and feel "misunderstood". It's a huge mistake, however, to assume that just because they're a minority, the underdog, that that means they're the good guys.

"Most men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Lincoln (IIRC)

I don't believe that if/when muslims become the majority of the population in Europe that they'll suddenly treat us native Europeans with much fairness or respect. They already think they owe us some "payback" for insults real or imagined.

Anyways, debate on this topic really is pointless which for some odd reason I forgot this morning when I made my last post - but I just really wanted to reply to Magister Mundi Sum :P Peaceful dialogue doesn't make compromises on issues like this in the real world, and it doesn't on GLP either. Dilatoriness is as much an extremist as the Ayatollah Khomeini was - set in her ways, and unwilling to admit she might be wrong. Incidentally, also unable to comprehend the opposing viewpoint, which is the basis for all compromise...

That's why it'll come to conflict, sooner or later, and that's why it doesn't matter what anyone says to the contrary, for or against :P

I guess we'll just have to rely on woo-woo solutions for evolution on an individual or small-scale level, because society as a whole is not going to evolve, it's just going to degenerate into either a police state or anarchy. Those of us caught up in it will just have to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, because no one can really know how they'll react until it happens anyways.

i have no doubt that in the muslim faith there is no room for infidels, all i am saying is,, who benifits the most by angering them the most , israel,, if they can get europe or the usa to fight their battles,, they will do it,, make war by way of deception,,

the clock is ticking, i guess it is us or them eventually, hate to say that,, but it sure looks to be the truth

You may not like this:


UN,EU and Muslims link in call to curb protests
By Mark Turner at the United Nations, Roula Khalaf in London,and Gareth Smyth in Tehran
Published: February 8 2006 02:00 | Last updated: February 8 2006 02:00

The United Nations, the European Union and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference yesterday issued a joint appeal for an end to violence around the Muslim world, following the publication of cartoons deemed offensive to Islam.
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But they also asserted that while that free speech was a right, it was one that entailed "responsibility and discretion", and "should respect the beliefs and tenets of all religions".

The UN-brokered statement was issued by Kofi Annan, UN secretary general, Javier Solana, EU foreign policy chief, and Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, OIC secretary general, in an effort to curb days of protests, some violent some peaceful, at the publication and republication of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

"The anguish in the Muslim world at the publication of the offensive caricatures is shared by all individuals and communities who recognise the sensitivity of deeply held religious belief," it said.

But the statement also warned: "the recent violent acts surpass the limits of peaceful protest", and condemned the "deplorable attacks on diplomatic missions" in Damascus, Beirut and elsewhere.

"Aggression against life and property can only damage the image of a peaceful Islam," the three leaders said. "We call on the authorities of all countries to protect all diplomatic premises and foreign citizens against unlawful attack."

But as diplomatic efforts to calm tensions were stepped up, European diplomats cautioned against exaggerating the impact of the cartoon controversy. Disapproval of the caricatures, said diplomats, was being exploited by some regimes for political purposes. The most violent protests have been in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iran. "This is not the Muslim world jumping against western values. It is Iran, which is being sent to the UN Security Council over its nuclear programme. It is Syria because it reacts to policies that have been taken (against it) by the international community . . . It is Afghanistan because the security situation there is fragile and deteriorating," said a diplomat.

The controversy over caricatures of the Prophet comes at a time of rising tensions between Iran and the European Union over Tehran's nuclear programme.

The cartoons appeared to have little impact in Shia Iran last week, compared with louder protests in Sunni parts of the Muslim world, but dozens of demonstrators yesterday attacked the Danish embassy in Tehran for a second day.

The ministry of commerce confirmed Iran had suspended all trade with Denmark but said trade with all other countries where the cartoons had been published would continue pending a government review.

Per Stig Moller, the Danish foreign minister, yesterday protested to Iran over the failure to protect the Danish embassy. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, supported protests throughout the Muslim world as "timely".

Hamshahri, a high-circulation middlebrow daily newspaper, yesterday said it would raise a debate about free speech by launching a competition for readers to offer cartoons on the Jewish holocaust.

Additional reporting by Païvi Munter in Stockholm

[link to news.ft.com]

I dare you to go to the suburbs of France, however, and try to live that philosophy. I dare you to buy a farm in Zimbabwe and pretend that you being non-African doesn't matter. I dare you to go to any muslim country and tell them that they shouldn't make their women wear veils. I dare you to go to etc, etc, etc, anywhere outside of Europe and expect to find the same kind of "tolerance" among the natives.


--------------------------------------

Of course I won't find the same tolerance there, simply because it hasn't been worked for. Apatheid was hardly a process of integration ya know :)International schools, as well as the trend we're seeing to slowly emerge in Denmark, may be a special case, but it does prove that multiculturalism *can* work, given time and mutual effort from both sides. You are right to say that it goes against human nature, which is why we are encountering so many problems, especially added to the fact that the powers that be intend for it to fail by pushing all the red buttons.

But look back on our own European history, in the years leading up to WW1 - certainly very few people there would have believed peaceful co-existence would ever have been possible (and would we have found you calling for 'peaceful separation' between the nations, I wonder?). Granted, Germans have more in common with the French than they do with Syrians, but my argument is not that the problems will be solved overnight, but that it *could* work.

I'll just make it clear that I do not think, given the current geopolitical circumstances and whatnot, that it WILL work, but, that in a better system, with better people in charge, that it COULD work. The assertion that Arabs and the West will never be able to coexist is simply not as factual as you make it sound, and sorry to say, rather pessimistic. You may argue cynical, or realistic.

I just don't see a reason to 'go with the flow', so to speak, and play right into the hands of the engineers.

------------------------------------

"As for washing your hands, typical liberal speak, lol! Try to make a utopia and tell people it'll be ok, look "oohhh ahhh" it's going to be so nice and happy, different cultures living together side by side, but then wash your hands when there's screaming and death as a direct result of this doomed-to-failure policy :P (sorry, inside joke)"

-------------------------------

It's only doomed to fail if arrogance comes in the way of understanding, which it has. It's not people like me who made the Europe that we see today, don't put the blame on me :P I may have been too quick to blame the 'reactionaries' as well - the trouble is really distinguishing how much of it is a massive socialogical experiment and how much is engineering and stage-setting by the elites. It's all undoubtedly very complex, and so it is only natural that we arrive at different conclusions. In any case it doesn't really matter in the larger picture. We're just two Danes exchanging opinions before Ragnarok, as if it'll make a difference :)

"I'll just make it clear that I do not think, given the current geopolitical circumstances and whatnot, that it WILL work, but, that in a better system, with better people in charge, that it COULD work"

Maybe once we nuke ourselves back to the stone age, get hit by an asteroid, or the modern world gets destroyed by various natural disasters then reasonable people can start anew and make a more sensible society :P

Here's hoping!

I disagree with your statement that society will not evolve, as in progress, Sol. Maybe that's because in my mind I must believe that, or hope will be lost. I think that temporarily society will or may suffer, but I believe it will be short term, but a lot of that depends on how much pressure we let build, how much damage is done when it cuts loose. Your point that the Muslims missed the renaissance and wars that taught live and let live is a good one, they do not want to live and let live, not the Muslim nations anyway. I think with the current trends in the region the confrontation is inevitable. I hate to say it but, from our standpoint it's better that it happens sooner then later. Hopefully when it's over, and it will have an end, there won't be planet wide mass destruction and society will get back on track and will evolve and progress. That we will learn that lesson to live and let live and hopefully there won't be a next time. But this time, I don't see an answer that'll work without confrontation, that hasn't failed already. Even erasing Israel wouldn't do it, it would only delay it. IMO the big wildcard that hasn't been mentioned much here is Pakistan, nuclear Pakistan, a Muslim nation.

where do you guys think china and russia are going to fall into this picture? do you think this is going to boil into a world wide free for all? yes,, need to keep an eye on pakistan,, but,, india does a pretty good job of that!

Magister Mundi Sum

One point you left out. Apartheid, confrontation before WWI, WWII, wasn't based and ingrained in the other guys religion. That's a huge factor.

India is probably the one reason we don't hear a whole lot more out of Pakistan. Pakistan believes that if it blinks or takes it's eye off India for a second, India will pounce. They're probably making a good assesment there.
I think that China and Russia will probably be more like the ropes of the ring then anything else. Russia has it's own problems with Muslims, however they also have some working relationships as well. China has evolved a ton over the last decades and I think they are seeing that progress pays and life is better for it. I have a utopian view that there is an underlying feeling that most of mankind wants to move forward wants to be more modern, wants technoligy etc. Russia wants more, China has gotten a taste and wants more, we got a lot and don't want to give it up. I just don't see it as coming down to Russia and or China throwing in with Islam. If the confrontation between radical Islam and the modern world is going to happen, and it looks like it is, then just fucking get it over with and re-boot.

lmao

re boot! hahha,, but i do concur with your assesment, and i do think we should just get this party started, and do it right then

but i do think,, america, russia, and china,, have to go toe to toe at some point,, the middle east and most of europe will soon be toast i fear,, and africa,, the wild card,,, but there is a finite amount of resources, and we all want the good life

Well, I have beeen following this thread with great interest, - beeing Norwegian.

I try to look at the "big picture", and you don't have to be a "rocket scientist" to understand that whatever moral, race, religion, nationality etc one might have/support - that historicaly different opinions clash at a grand scale sooner or later...

I belive that we are "closing in" on such times. Hatred and misunderstanding between humans doesn't explain this, - but history does.

We are now speaking "mass psychlogy", (intended as psyops or not), wich make any rational man/woman to act "selfish" on behalf of their "tribe".

Claiming unfairness, "foul play", revenge and someone to "take action" is what we "want".

Unfortunatly we all have to make a stand in the values we belive in. Sometimes this "stand" is neither realistic, fair or well grounded.

I just read a poll in a Norwegian newspaper saying:
---
According to the survey, which was carried out on Tuesday, 47.8 percent of those asked said they were more skeptical about Islam
---
[link to www.aftenposten.no]

I am afraid that this will take long time to "repair", and that we are set for a "rocky road" with our neighbours.

The policy of integration in Scandinavia/Europe have failed, and we are now under "attack" due to our openness and the abilty to be ironic....

We will all fight for what we belive is the truth and what is "right". The problem is that these variables differ from human to human.

I hope all will do as well as they can, - for themself, their tribe and for humanity!

Good luck!

we have members here from norway, denmark, sweden, finland and scotland,,, i would think you would be more vocal than this...... i mean,, this is your back yard,, ??

we have some difficult days ahead of us folks,,

Oh my why do you talk the doom into manifestation too malu?