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Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 29643034
United States
12/21/2012 09:37 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
I have an honest question for gun advocates

Won't armed police in school make America feel like a Police state
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


you gave one quote of jefferson which was out of context. Here is another quote from him.
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.
now explain how he could say that but believe people have no right to have guns? and dont ignore this i know you probaly will since it proves you wrong and contradicts one of your so called "facts"

I Noticed you have a tendency to ignore valid points which are hard to argue against, now please explain this if you are so sure you are right
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29643034


I am not sure I am right, I am now questioning my position on whether gun control is really the answer for safe America and my opinion is changing on the matter after reviewing some of y post and considering them to be irraational
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031

Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. – James Madison

The Constitution shall never be construed … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams

A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. – Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. – Mahatma Gandhi, in Gandhi, An Autobiography, p. 446

The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner. – Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, Second Session (February 1982)

The usual road to slavery is that first they take away your guns, then they take away your property, then last of all they tell you to shut up and say you are enjoying it. – James A. Donald

They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here? – Paul Harvey 8/31/94

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. – William S. Burroughs

The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. – Alexander Hamilton
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:38 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
IMO It's about time guns need to ban for citizens in order for modern society to advance barbaric weapons such as weapons have no use. Only law enforcement,military and government should have guns to protect us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Are you drunk or what? You've been spouting this stupid shit all day.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


I retract my opinions on the matter I realized my opinions were not actually facts and were irrational and that fear prevented me from exploring the topic of guns logically
Manu-Koelbren

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12/21/2012 09:40 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
IMO It's about time guns need to ban for citizens in order for modern society to advance barbaric weapons such as weapons have no use. Only law enforcement,military and government should have guns to protect us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Are you drunk or what? You've been spouting this stupid shit all day.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


I retract my opinions on the matter I realized my opinions were not actually facts and were irrational and that fear prevented me from exploring the topic of guns logically
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


You gotta be kidding me. I don't believe you just had a sudden change of mind like that, you must a shill of some sort.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:40 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
I have an honest question for gun advocates

Won't armed police in school make America feel like a Police state
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031

There are armed police in most middle and high school. All colleges have a police or security force.

Americans aren't generally afraid of a normal officer with a gun.

I saw some politician say that if we put a cop in elementary,that would make America an armed camp. Total BS because that interferes with their agenda.

We are an armed camp,but not with the feeling of having the Gestapo in charge,yet.
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:40 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
IMO It's about time guns need to ban for citizens in order for modern society to advance barbaric weapons such as weapons have no use. Only law enforcement,military and government should have guns to protect us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Are you drunk or what? You've been spouting this stupid shit all day.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


I retract my opinions on the matter I realized my opinions were not actually facts and were irrational and that fear prevented me from exploring the topic of guns logically
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Welcome to the light side of the force
5a
WAKEUPAMERICA01

User ID: 30489425
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12/21/2012 09:41 PM

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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
Lawful gun owners do not commit crimes period. If anything they are a deterent to crime. Only in places like chicago, nyc and dc and other gun free areas where lawful gun owners are prohibted from protecting themselves and others do you see gun crimes on the rise and also have the highest amounts of murders. In places where you are allowed to carry a gun openly and concealed for protection crime has in fact gone down. Even more, crime has gone down in general across the US. just those shitholes where every thug knows that most citizens are not armed is where most of the crimes happen. See the media protects the Pres and his ideologies and so do the brain dead public which get all their info and so called facts from the liberal media and the think tanks who have a agenda to push. A armed society is a polite society.

WAKE UP AMERICA
WAKE UP AMERICA
"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death."
Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, No. 1, December 19, 1776
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it."

Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, No. 4, September 11, 1777
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President.
"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years, [79 years now in 2012] freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have in varying degrees been abridged by laws brought into force by statutes of national emergency."
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:41 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
IMO It's about time guns need to ban for citizens in order for modern society to advance barbaric weapons such as weapons have no use. Only law enforcement,military and government should have guns to protect us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Are you drunk or what? You've been spouting this stupid shit all day.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


I retract my opinions on the matter I realized my opinions were not actually facts and were irrational and that fear prevented me from exploring the topic of guns logically
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


You gotta be kidding me. I don't believe you just had a sudden change of mind like that, you must a shill of some sort.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


maybe its true, maybe logic can prevail if used correctly and respectfully
AdHocBOHICA

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12/21/2012 09:44 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
IMO It's about time guns need to ban for citizens in order for modern society to advance barbaric weapons such as weapons have no use. Only law enforcement,military and government should have guns to protect us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Gun are for barbaric people who can't settle disputes peacefully.If you want true power write a letter ,sign a petition and peacefully demonstrate
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


You need a "Roadside Cavity Search" you little socialist turd. Your not in the Bahamas for sure. I'll see you and your kind on the field. If you think your kind are going to grease your tracks with us and our's then YOU and YOUR type are doomed. Track my IP addy and show up you snotty little bastard. Nuff said.
Manu-Koelbren

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12/21/2012 09:44 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
...


Are you drunk or what? You've been spouting this stupid shit all day.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


I retract my opinions on the matter I realized my opinions were not actually facts and were irrational and that fear prevented me from exploring the topic of guns logically
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


You gotta be kidding me. I don't believe you just had a sudden change of mind like that, you must a shill of some sort.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


maybe its true, maybe logic can prevail if used correctly and respectfully
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29643034


Is there still hope in this world? damned
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:47 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
I have an honest question for gun advocates

Won't armed police in school make America feel like a Police state
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031

There are armed police in most middle and high school. All colleges have a police or security force.

Americans aren't generally afraid of a normal officer with a gun.

I saw some politician say that if we put a cop in elementary,that would make America an armed camp. Total BS because that interferes with their agenda.

We are an armed camp,but not with the feeling of having the Gestapo in charge,yet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27997099


hf
allisaTX

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12/21/2012 09:52 PM

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...


I retract my opinions on the matter I realized my opinions were not actually facts and were irrational and that fear prevented me from exploring the topic of guns logically
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


You gotta be kidding me. I don't believe you just had a sudden change of mind like that, you must a shill of some sort.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


maybe its true, maybe logic can prevail if used correctly and respectfully
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29643034


Is there still hope in this world? damned
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Funny you should ask that. I immediately thought of Sutherland's line in "The Hunger Games" (the author lives in Newtown by the way).....
I can't quote word for word, but it was something like "a little hope is a good thing (within the police state), but a lot of hope is not (as those in power are threatened)"

But on a lighter note yes sweet loved glp poster their is hope in the world....
Here is a big hug!
hugs

Last Edited by allisaTX on 12/21/2012 10:16 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:52 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
America keeps all oh its documents in Holland. That is why Germany invaded Holland.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27997099


And then the Dali Lama of the day took those documents from Berlin and transported them to the Tibetan Mountains. Then the Chinese took them from Tibet and moved them to the old former Chinese Emperor's Palace for safe keeping. And then the Chinese produced forged copies with edits in them of these same American documents, and sold the forgeries to the Govenment of Holland the the Man from Barmuda (aka 007, British Agent, Have Gun will travel, Liscensed to Kill by Her Majesty) read than and posted a very small snippet of that Chinese forged document on this thread.

And then..

And then...

And then....

Well, carry on the fiction... we are all waiting.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


chuckle

So many fucking morons fabricating stuff I tell ya.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


hiding
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 09:52 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
What I realized is the gun is just a tool a means to an end just like knives and other weapons and that you can't blame the gun for crime. But just ensure that as many people as possible knows how to use a gun properly and can properly secure it to prevent minimal tragedy and maximum effectiveness.
Manu-Koelbren

User ID: 1312616
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12/21/2012 09:53 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
I have an honest question for gun advocates

Won't armed police in school make America feel like a Police state
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031

There are armed police in most middle and high school. All colleges have a police or security force.

Americans aren't generally afraid of a normal officer with a gun.

I saw some politician say that if we put a cop in elementary,that would make America an armed camp. Total BS because that interferes with their agenda.

We are an armed camp,but not with the feeling of having the Gestapo in charge,yet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27997099


hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


I would prefer more armed citizens and less police, just as I would prefer more private sector and less public sector.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Manu-Koelbren

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12/21/2012 09:54 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
...


You gotta be kidding me. I don't believe you just had a sudden change of mind like that, you must a shill of some sort.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


maybe its true, maybe logic can prevail if used correctly and respectfully
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29643034


Is there still hope in this world? damned
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


Funny you should ask that. I immediately thought of Southerland's line in "The Hunger Games" (the author lives in Newtown by the way).....
I can't quote word for word, but it was something like "a little hope is a good thing (within the police state), but a lot of hope is not (as those in power are threatened)"
 Quoting: allisaTX


That's a very good point actually.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:02 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
IMO It's about time guns need to ban for citizens in order for modern society to advance barbaric weapons such as weapons have no use. Only law enforcement,military and government should have guns to protect us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Are you drunk or what? You've been spouting this stupid shit all day.
 Quoting: Ralph--a house dog


Perhaps not a native English language speaker who is attempting to use Google Babylon translation distortions.
MarkinAZ

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12/21/2012 10:03 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
Wondering? Are you a CITIZEN? The President does indeed take such an Oath and while the constitution can be lawfully changed, the President, all members of Congress and the Senate, and all Federal Judges, all Cabinet Members and Joint Chiefs'of Staff, all Supreme Court Justices, and many other Federal Employees and most State Governors do indeed have a legal obligation to defend and protect all parts of the US Constitution (whether he personally likes them or not) until and unless they are legally changed.

That's what makes us a Republic and sometimes even a democracy!



The ignorant bastard is violating his oath of office!! Blatantly!

What about his OATH of office that included a clause to "PROTECT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"?? The president is NOT the only official that is required to take that pledge as part of their oath of office.

There are legal and lawful means for changing the US Constitution. It's been done often enough with mixed results (look at Prohibition!) But for a Congressman or Senator to just BLATANTLY SUPPORT VIOLATING THE 2nd AMENDMENT is FOOLISH and very BAD FORM - as well as being grounds for his RECALL!!
 Quoting: MarkinAZ


Obama doesn't have to protect and defend anything especially something as evil as a gun
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:06 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
Saw on the news, a headline "NRA proposes more guns in schools." Funny how when more policemen get hired the media cheers but the media won't run the story with a similar headline such as "government proposes more guns on the streets." I find it embarrassing that the same people arguing against policemen in schools, or armed teachers, are the same people that advocate TSA on the highways and in the airports, fondling the genitals of our children and shoving our family members in cancerous microwave ovens.

Anyone with at least a 1/16th of brain knows that the Sandy Hook incident is nothing more than a convenient opportunity for the elite to exploit the deaths of innocent children to ram through their agenda. As Rahm Emanuel, mayor of Chicago, said "never let a crisis go to waste." The elite are afraid of the population beginning to wake up and are frantically trying to disarm the public before a modern day Storming of the Bastille event.
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:07 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
What I realized is the gun is just a tool a means to an end just like knives and other weapons and that you can't blame the gun for crime. But just ensure that as many people as possible knows how to use a gun properly and can properly secure it to prevent minimal tragedy and maximum effectiveness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


How many people slice off the end of a finger tip because they were not being careful enough or just play wrongfully handling a knife?

Same difference with guns.

Same with fire for that matter. That beast can get away from you as well if you do not respect it. Yes, these all are dangerous. So is sitting in your chair and it breaks underneath you.
Manu-Koelbren

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12/21/2012 10:08 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
Saw on the news, a headline "NRA proposes more guns in schools." Funny how when more policemen get hired the media cheers but the media won't run the story with a similar headline such as "government proposes more guns on the streets." I find it embarrassing that the same people arguing against policemen in schools, or armed teachers, are the same people that advocate TSA on the highways and in the airports, fondling the genitals of our children and shoving our family members in cancerous microwave ovens.

Anyone with at least a 1/16th of brain knows that the Sandy Hook incident is nothing more than a convenient opportunity for the elite to exploit the deaths of innocent children to ram through their agenda. As Rahm Emanuel, mayor of Chicago, said "never let a crisis go to waste." The elite are afraid of the population beginning to wake up and are frantically trying to disarm the public before a modern day Storming of the Bastille event.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1447583


THISS

This is the stance one has to have, not of blind patriotism but of alert and conscience of the true dangers that beset one's nation.
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Manu-Koelbren

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12/21/2012 10:10 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
I've gotten two karma comments recently, one says "your stupid" and the other one says "your intelegent".

confused
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
ReVbo™
Pook Snabber

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12/21/2012 10:10 PM

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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
Can someone please educate me on the pros of guns
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


They allow me to shoot some guy who breaks into my house and wants to rape my daughter. Also, the stuff about defense against tyranny, but mostly the first thing. For me, anyway.
Rev. 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:17 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
And please remember also, that in such mass killings, there is the element of Pre-Meditated murder, cold blooded murder.

And as we all know, col blooded pre-meditated murder is also against the law and a crime.

Yet, some criminals commit cold blood murders of multiple victims using only their bear hands.

Ban Hands? Doubtful, they would just find a way to use their feet.
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:19 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
there will be a few more psyops gun massacres in schools before guns are outlawed.

problem: kids being shot dead.

reaction: shock horror. 'this can't go on'.

(government) solution: outlaw firearms.

then america falls into marxist government hands.
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:20 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
And please remember also, that in such mass killings, there is the element of Pre-Meditated murder, cold blooded murder.

And as we all know, col blooded pre-meditated murder is also against the law and a crime.

Yet, some criminals commit cold blood murders of multiple victims using only their bear hands.

Ban Hands? Doubtful, they would just find a way to use their feet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27972246


Most people can't get this through their heads: laws are put in place to let one know the consequences of certain actions, laws do not prevent such actions from occurring.
Manu-Koelbren

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12/21/2012 10:22 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
there will be a few more psyops gun massacres in schools before guns are outlawed.

problem: kids being shot dead.

reaction: shock horror. 'this can't go on'.

(government) solution: outlaw firearms.

then america falls into marxist government hands.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5882372


You make me feel bad for all those times I badmouth brits wink

Last Edited by Manu-K on 12/21/2012 10:23 PM
"White privilege" is the liberal religion's version of Original Sin: you are born guilty, and you carry that burden of guilt all your life, and the only way to escape eternal damnation is for white people confess their sin, to bow, kneel and believe the dogma of the Church of Liberalism, genuflect at its altars, honor its saints, fill the collection plate, and never, ever doubt.

-- Dixon Diaz
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:24 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
...


Lasers? What about a Jedi Sword?

yoda
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren

Your barbaric mind is so fixated on slaying someone with a gun that you can't even think critically
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


My barbaric mind is fixated on my individual right for self defense judging by the fact that the police is not likely to be around when I need them the most. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. There's also the need for the citizenry to have some means to counter government tyranny were it to arise. There's countless logical points to dispel your utter BS, you're a poor deluded imbecile.
 Quoting: Manu-Koelbren


What you gun holding redneck hill-billies don't understand is the second amendment(and the 4th) isn't even relevant and there are other ways to defend yourself than using a gun ,like using mace and pepper spray. Obama needs to quickly change the constitution to detract citizens from using guns and make the provision for only law enforcement to have guns.You don't want another Newtown event right
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30562031


Do they mwhateverake assault pepper whateverspray ?
Saddletramp
We Don't Rent Pigs...

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12/21/2012 10:33 PM

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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
If indeed gun confiscation is an "option" for the government, then revolution becomes an option for the people...

Freedom is not the problem, criminals are the problem...freedom is the answer!

Last Edited by Saddletramp on 12/21/2012 10:35 PM
"And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods..." ~ Horatius

"Because he told the truth, and once you've heard the truth, everything else is just cheap whiskey..."
AdHocBOHICA

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12/21/2012 10:39 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
If indeed gun confiscation is an "option" for the government, then revolution becomes an option for the people...

Freedom is not the problem, criminals are the problem...freedom is the answer!
 Quoting: Saddletramp


Shoulder to Shoulder with you Sir!
Anonymous Coward
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12/21/2012 10:39 PM
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Re: Top Democrat On Gun Control: “Confiscation Could Be an Option”
ny loves its tyranny.

99% nanny state..and swarms of bureaucrats
fees, fines & taxes on everything.

shit, those bitches cant even legally light off a pack of firecrackers on the Fourth of July.

domesticated, servile & broken...makes sense to start there.

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