Americans, I have a question for you about guns

I have nothing against responsible gun control laws. There are already some good ones on the books. The question is how far is too far? Our forefathers emphasized how important it is for the citizens to be able to defend themselves against a tyrannical government.

The problem is your thinking, or your lack of understanding of our form of government. It is based on natural rights, that is those rights that are given to you by your Creator. For instance you own yourself, and therefore you own your property or the fruits of your labor. You also have the right to defend yourself.

The second amendment was written to ensure that the government would not infringe on the rights of the people (inalienable rights) to be able to organize themselves and defend themselves against any threat foreign or domestic. To defend yourself in today's world against aggression from criminals to psychopaths you need to be able to arm yourself in equal capacity. Criminals and psychopaths can always get guns, they can get guns in countries where they are banned. So, a citizen has the right to defend themselves to their best ability and that means the right to buy any type of weaponry to do so.

Freedom isn't free..

I read where China has said the only reason they haven't invaded us is because their is a gun behind every bush. If that is true I am glad we have our guns.

because, my dear finn, both libtards and evil wage the war of attrition, meaning they impose their will deceptively a millimiter at a time
their motives fool nobody
they must be stopped and opposed at every opportunity from the beginning decisevely and clearly

they are not for gun control they are for complete ban and confiscation and try to deceive you about their purpose

guns are the american way
guns are an essence of America
unconditionally, undeniably

no compromise can ever be reached with evil
it is not possible

evil must be stopped and eliminated completely from the getgo

when your grandparents were shooting invading russians they were not trying to wound or tickle
they were shooting to KILL

tnere can be no negotiation with evil

ever

period

hope this helps my finn friend

If you look at the areas that have the toughest gun restrictions like Chicago, New York and many other areas. They have the highest amounts of people killed by guns. Most cowards will go to where they know there are not armed people. If there was a chance that a cop or some teachers were armed at schools, the amount of school shootings would drop. The amount of mental illness for whatever reason is a big problem and needs to be addressed.

Let me embellish this a bit for you. In Europe you have been brainwashed through socialism to trust the government in any capacity even to the point of defending you when you need it, or I guess scaring the heck out of criminals and psychopaths so they won't carry out any crimes. So that means your government controls everything about your life, even your ability to defend yourself.

Our government started out as a government of the people, that is their rights were first and the organized government that was created by the people for the people recognized that the people are the first line of defense and it is their right to organize and defend themselves to threats against their persons and property.

Basically, we started out as a nation of individuals and slowly over time we have become a nation of Euro clones who are brainwashed into thinking the government will do everything for us.

Because we have been giving up ground to our government on every freedom for over 150 years.
We know once they start, there is no stopping.
It may seem like we are "gun nuts", but it a matter of liberty and our diminished Bill of Rights.

Well, time fo me to finally go get some sleep. I'd like to thank you all for your answers (with the exception below). Once more I learned something new about the American way of thinking. And no, I don't think you're gun nuts or something like that. I also oppose banning guns so make sure no group can ever get a total ban of firearms through in your country!



I was expecting to get a reply like this eventually. Someone said I don't truly understand how the US government works - which is most likely true since it's not my top priorities. Well, the same thing could be told to you right now with your "brainwashed through socialism" and all that. Just sayin'.

we already have a certain amount of regulation from gun laws. gun owners don't mind the gun laws we have now. but when "gun control" or even "common sense gun measures" is called for, it is always by the ones who want to eliminate all guns, and that is in fact what they mean. to get rid of all the guns. that is what the phrase "gun control" has come to represent.

that's the way it is and it's that simple.

There are more than adequate gun laws currently on the books that the government cannot enforce, admittedly our current want to be dictator obama and his communist leaning like-minded czars and minions would like to confiscate law-abiding citizen’s weapons.

Many Americans will take the good times along with the bad to forge their own way through life without becoming government dependent kept losers. With all the weapons gunrunner Eric Holder who wholeheartedly wants to disarm law abiding Americans to the point he tried to frame us through Fast and Furious by providing guns to drug cartels in n attempt to foist further gun control laws upon us.

Unfortunately, the Mexican drug cartels have infiltrated the street gangs in America and the police and government cannot control or protect law-abiding citizens. If our now communist government attempts to neuter us as yours has done to you what hope do we have?

Further discounting gun crimes please explain the excessively high statistics in the following areas in your country.

Finland - Assault victims - 2.1% - 6th of 20
United States - Assault victims - 1.2% - 11th of 20

Finland - Rape victims - 1.1% - 3rd of 20]
United States - Rape victims 0.4% - 13th of 20

Finland - Suicide rates in ages 15-24 - 22.8 per 100,000 people - 2nd of 17
United States – Suicide rates in ages 15-24 - 13.7 per 100,000 people - 7th of 17

Finland - Suicide rates in ages 25-34 - 33 per 100,000 people - 1st of 17
United States - Suicide rates in ages 25-34 -15.3 per 100,000 people - 10th of 17

Finland -Total crime victims - 21.1% - 15th of 20
United States - Total crime victims - 19.1% - 16th of 20

Finland
[link to www.nationmaster.com]

United States
[link to www.nationmaster.com]

Last Edited by SilverPatriot - Memorial on 12/22/2012 09:43 PM

Historically, when the Constitution was written (and the 2nd Amendement was enshrined therein), there were no police to call and there was no standing army. The citizens were expected to: 1st) defend themselves, and 2nd) be ready to constitute a militia to defend the common good. That especially included tyranny from external sources.

Now we have a standing army to defend ourselves from external organized attack. Now we have police who will slowly respond to personal threats. Slowly is important here. They respond slowly. If they are called to a violent event it's usually all over by the time they get there. Then they fill out some forms, take a few statements and clean up the carnage.

Now, especially on the Internet, we see the local police have become populated with a certain number of sociopaths and psychopaths. Some are drunk on power and they are armed to the teeth. These head cases might well run totally amok if they are the only ones armed. The widely available arms keep these psychos in line to a great extent.

When people talk about the "right to keep and bear arms" as envisioned by the founding fathers, they often refer to keeping tyrannical government in check. This is usually framed as keeping the national government in check, but since the fathers also created a decentralized form of government (national, state, County) they must also have envisioned that the populace could use these weapons to keep government in check at all levels, i.e. "foreign AND domestic."

When the Constitution was drafted, each state was considered a foreign country bound by a contract to provide for the common defense and to regulate commerce between said states. Since each state is "foreign" to the others, the right to keep and bear arms could also apply to one state against another, as strange as that seems to us now.

So, first and foremost the guns keep us safe from each other, secondarily against a rotten government and thirdly against foreign invasion.

I agree with some of the other posters when they say that "gun control" is now synonymous with total banning of all firearms for the populace.

"An armed society is a polite society."

Some good answers here.

The definition of "arms," at the time the Bill of Rights was written, meant MILITARY GRADE ARMAMENT.

The entire point was so the PEOPLE could secure their RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS from usurpation by the GOVERNMENT as well as foreign aggressors.

Part of the reason for this, was that there was NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A STANDING ARMY within the States - that could march against the PEOPLE, because the PEOPLE were supposed to keep military grade weapons and the ORGANIZE when there was a threat.

Now, there are SEVERAL standing armies within the States and the people have been denied their RIGHTS to keep armament equal to that held by those standing armies.

The war is already lost.

However, IF the PEOPLE can retain possession of some form of repeating rifle, they could at least, for a time, drive off a pack of corrupt storm troopers. Not for long, though, lol.

Anyway, OP, MOST people mis-understand not only the original intent, also the modern reality - that OUR RIGHTS *HAVE* BEEN INFRINGED. A standing army has invaded, and a dictatorial Emperor has taken our ARMS by force.

This has already happened, as you will find out if you attempt to exercise your RIGHT to import a container ship of ak-47s, SAMS and artillery for you own personal keeping.

So, long live the Emperor. The Republic is dead.

It has everything to do with the fact that if they make a gun grab on citizen approved semi-automatic assault rifles, we'll have a mass shooting with some nutjob with semi-automatic handguns and they'll make another excuse to ban those. This leaves us at a disadvantage from who the real criminals are. You ask any cop if he has ever stopped a crime before it happened and you'll find 99% will say "no". They come to crimes AFTER they happen. Hence, if we are not able to defend ourselves or have equal fire power, then we are at a disadvantage.

Guns don't kill people, nut jobs who obtain them do and we fail to look at our culture as a whole and want to jump on guns. Look what happened in England after they banned guns...people just went around slashing and stabbing eachother. YOU CANNOT FIX VIOLENCE BY BANNING GUNS. IT'S IN THE CULTURE and people will do violent crimes regardless. We have a culture that watches violence on TV, in video games, listens to violence, and worships violent people and then gives them drugs to manage their conditions instead of altering the culture to improve society as a whole.

THIS IS NOT A GUN ISSUE. I wish people would look at the larger picture here and realize that this problem won't get fixed by banning certain types of guns. You will create a black market for them and the bad guys will continue to have them. Look at Mexico...no citizen is allowed to own guns, but their gun crimes are through the roof because the criminals have them.

I'm tired of people infringing on my rights as a law abiding citizen because they do not want to look at the sick damn culture that we have. We've had guns for a long damn time and we simply do not respect human life anymore and this is a HUGE problem. Not to mention the fact that we speak out of both sides of our mouths while giving the drug cartels automatic rifles that lead to the deaths to US citizens. But Obama did say a few smart things in this video in relation to giving our kids opportunity and having good parenting and schools. If you take away certain guns, they'll find other ways to kill people.

We are staring into the abyss and it is staring back people.





Last Edited by Question EVERYTHING on 12/23/2012 12:13 PM

Americans should get ready to have Illinois type gun laws shoved down their throats. National FOID cards. They're a registration of the person, not their guns. FOIDs causes background checks and wrap-backs, meaning the FOID registrant is constantly monitored for violations and behaviors. For example, if a domestic violence charge is levied, it's an automatic FOID suspension. The Police come and temporarily pick up guns and ammunition and confiscate your FOID card.
No gun store can even allow you to hold a gun in their shop without one. No ammunition sales. No sale.
They are passing more laws each year that will cause FOID revocation EVEN THOUGH the infraction is a civil one, had nothing to do with our use of a gun or a behavior that in no way accurately portrays a threat of any violence. Mental illness? No NFOID.

A national FOID registration is coming. Concealed Cary will still exist but for a limited fewer each year. Civil disturbances? NFOID gone. Nearly all crimes and civil infractions could suspend the NFOID. Guns and ammo gone.

Last Edited by USCG Popeye on 12/23/2012 12:40 PM

These are all excellent points that are great. Thank you.

Its come down to protecting ourselves against a tyrannical government, its not a good time to allow any weapons ban of any kind...

Through all the threads on this site discussing guns, gun control, gun confiscation, there is one common item.

Not one poster on any thread who argues in favor of no guns can explain how illegal weapons will be kept from gang bangers, drug cartels, criminals, and the crazies. This lack of explanation extends as well to the media. It was never more obvious as the interview with Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America by Pierce what's his name on CNN.

They don't have an answer, but they also do not want people to question it either. People really need to think hard about what the motives are behind the desire to leave law abiding America defenseless against brutal attacks such as those in Newtown. What would you do if this evil maniac busted into your home in the middle of the night instead of that school?

A good beginning for you would be to familiarize yourself with the existing gun control laws that are in place herein this country.

An example dealing with the latest salvo into creating this discussion would be to consider that Conneticut has some of the most restrictive laws on the books and all these weapons were purchased legally and lawfully and so was the ammunition and did not carry outlawed clips or magazines exceeding what is allowed.

Sometimes it works or serves to do some homework before asking a charged question, that would be the one who questions responsiblity.

Chicago has hugely restrictibve gun laws but that does nothing for outlaws, herein this country, or anywhere else.

I'm not American, but I'll tell you right now that once you give an inch...the government will take a mile. History proves the true meaning behind this issue and logic tells us that criminals will always find guns, but it will be the responsible gun owners and law-abiding citizens who will be unarmed against them and all others who would make them slaves in the most complete and disastrous way.

The statistics prove that gun bans/laws do not deter crime, but enhance it. Once the criminals know you are unarmed...they have their way unimpeded. What more does one truly need to know? Imo, it was a staged affair (false flag). Although most Americans don't feel their government would kill its own for an agenda, they have closed their eyes to what their government is doing outside of its borders and to the mass murders it is committing daily. Yes, the government would kill its own, just as other tyrannical governments have done throughout history. Disarming them is the only way that they will have complete and utter physical control, as they have already gained the psychological control (media/propaganda) and from what we can see, the government has already taken the first steps of 'absolute power' when it disregards its own constitutional laws and gives itself the power that the NDAA, Indefinite Detention Bill does. Someone here once asked, "How many have been taken and no one even has a clue that they are gone?" Very scary thought.

"Those Who Do Not Learn From History Are Doomed to Repeat It"

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.
Adolf Hitler

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
Adolf Hitler

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
Adolf Hitler

All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.
Adolf Hitler

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
Adolf Hitler

The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.
Adolf Hitler

Our heritage of an armed citizenry was settled in
the Bill of Rights to the Constitution.

The founders wanted the best arms available in the
hands of the PEOPLE. NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

They were'nt speaking of the Continental Army when
they referred to the militia, but ALL able bodied
citizens.

The Second Amendment was not included in the Constitution
to protect hunters or target shooters.
The founders wanted to guarantee that America
would always have a WELL ARMED CITIZENRY.

If you want to argue that it is talking about the militia, who was the militia?
Tenche Cox, Pennsylvanian delegate to the Continental Congress tells us:

"The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms,
when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible.
Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn
our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm
the militia. Their swords, AND EVERY OTHER TERRIBLE IMPLEMENT OF THE SOLDIER,
are the BIRTH-RIGHT of an American ... the unlimited power of the sword is not in
the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God
it will ever remain, IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE."

The founders thought it so important that the citizenry
remained ARMED, that the Constitution was not, and could
not have been ratified, until these rights were enumerated.

The document we call the CONSTITUTION gave birth to the
nation we call the United States of America.

People who consider it just a piece of paper, are
totally clueless.
Without the Constitution, the United States of America
doesn't even exist.

When you get out of your teens and understand the real world you will know why, if you are out of your teens and you ask these questions then I doubt you have the mental faculties to understand the answer.

not american ..but adding my 2 cents (for what its worth nowadays)


CONTROL of anything has quite the opposite effect.

it didn't worked for alcohol prohibition

it hasn't worked for pot/hemp alternatives

and everytime the discussion of "gun control" comes up they have record gun sales a week later.

total control or total freedom?

which one you want?

You're exactly right, OP. When they go knocking on doors soon (which they will), they are ONLY going after certain firearms. We will be keeping our hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols as long as they are registered.

And you're right again... it is way too late to ban all guns.

Because governments the world over use excuses whether valid or not to gain a legal inch and the proceed to take a mile. As for this occasion, the president and his attorney general both want to ban the manufacture, sale, and ownership of hand guns and bans on any long gun that isn't single fire only.

History has plenty of examples of governments using incremental increases in regulations and bans to take away everything up to and including freedom and life itself. It isn't unreasonable paranoia to refuse to take the first step down that slippery slope to perdition.

OP, this is a very good reason why the talk of banning assault rifles is not logical:

That's right! And you can't "uninvent" the gun, not even by banning it.

It cettainly is not just mass shooters that already have guns but home invaders, gang members, rapists and garden variety criminals. I for one am not going to be a sitting duck for any of the above.

I agree with much of the thoughts expressed herein by my countrymen.

However, I fear many may not yet see how incremental infringement upon our rights combined with either the lawless acts or intentional evasion in enforcing existing laws by our own government has created a reality where the rule of law is compromised. Not by we, the law abiding good people but rather by the government, in both elected and appointed capacities.

Unless we fight to retain our Second, then all others are compromised.

It is already happening. Freedom of all kinds, enumerated and defined, are already under assault.

Speech, property, search and seizure, religion, and more are already compromised.

Article Two of our Bill of Rights is enumerated specifically to ensure we have the ability to retain all rights.

Without it, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can occur only by the grace of the despots who rule over us.