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Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking

 
notinfallible
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User ID: 30134138
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12/23/2012 01:35 PM

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Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
I just stumbled across some interesting information regarding a new technology that is being used to recognize copyrighted material that one may acquire online.

"Audio Fingerprinting

Audio fingerprinting technology permits automatic recognition of music recordings and commercials with the help of a computer. Just as a person can recognize music (s)he has heard on the basis of certain characteristics, a computer can recognize a previously trained title on the basis of certain signal statistics that are known as its fingerprint. This involves a strictly content-based recognition technique, the audio track does not need require any special processing in advance."


More info here ----> [link to www.musictrace.de]

"Audio Watermarking

Unlike audio fingerprinting technologies, audio watermarking techniques slightly modify the usable signal to embed additional information into the original signal. This modification is so slight, that human hearing cannot perceive any difference between the watermarked audio signal and the original signal. A computer can, however, distinguish between copies of the same title on the basis of this information. The technique used by MusicTrace embeds the watermark so robustly that the watermarks are still detectable by a computer even after analog conversion."


More info here ----> [link to www.musictrace.de]

Last Edited by notinfallible on 12/23/2012 01:58 PM
To be upset over what you don't have, is to waste what you do have...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17487177
United States
12/23/2012 02:45 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
Kinda simple.

Don't pirate.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 30362797
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12/23/2012 02:58 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
voice print? wow what's next neva mind...

wtfhiding
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 30567339
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12/23/2012 04:08 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
sound hog
[link to www.iphone-apps-ipa.com]
SoundHound is instant music search and discovery:
The world's FASTEST music recognition: name tunes playing from a speaker in as little as four seconds
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LiveLyrics: see Lyrics in time with the music for over 1 Million tracks
SoundHound Player: play your iTunes tracks with LiveLyrics and instantly link to artist info
An included iPad app with beautiful, full-size lyrics and YouTube pages
The ultimate SoundHound experience: premium features including exclusive Recommended Songs, and no banner ads!
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 04:53 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
couldn't audio watermarking be circumvented by converting it to analog then re-recording it to digital?
Saratonin

User ID: 6418504
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12/23/2012 05:49 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
Sounds like a waste of time and money to prevent pirating. Obviously it would be simple to strip the audio watermark from the audio file thus rendering it easy to copy.
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Wintre

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12/23/2012 06:02 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
couldn't audio watermarking be circumvented by converting it to analog then re-recording it to digital?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30712465


no, did you read OPs post? "The technique used by MusicTrace embeds the watermark so robustly that the watermarks are still detectable by a computer even after analog conversion."

Last Edited by Wintre on 12/23/2012 06:03 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 06:25 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
I read OP's Watermarking link - It's a good idea - but I don't think it'll be difficult to defeat. The article reads more like an infomercial than a technical review.
notinfallible (OP)

User ID: 30134138
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12/23/2012 06:34 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
couldn't audio watermarking be circumvented by converting it to analog then re-recording it to digital?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30712465


Interesting idea. I have no idea if this would work though.
To be upset over what you don't have, is to waste what you do have...
sounds

User ID: 30347594
Australia
12/23/2012 06:40 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
couldn't audio watermarking be circumvented by converting it to analog then re-recording it to digital?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30712465


no, did you read OPs post? "The technique used by MusicTrace embeds the watermark so robustly that the watermarks are still detectable by a computer even after analog conversion."
 Quoting: Wintre


Resampling the original will remove any watermark from the audio, ie: 16bit @ 44.1Khz original,
resample to 24bit @ 48Khz = No audio watermark.

peace
Political correctness without wisdom ,is just Political nonsense.
notinfallible (OP)

User ID: 30134138
United States
12/23/2012 06:43 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
couldn't audio watermarking be circumvented by converting it to analog then re-recording it to digital?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30712465


no, did you read OPs post? "The technique used by MusicTrace embeds the watermark so robustly that the watermarks are still detectable by a computer even after analog conversion."
 Quoting: Wintre


Resampling the original will remove any watermark from the audio, ie: 16bit @ 44.1Khz original,
resample to 24bit @ 48Khz = No audio watermark.

peace
 Quoting: sounds


How can one be sure that there is no trace of it left?
To be upset over what you don't have, is to waste what you do have...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 9094168
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12/23/2012 06:44 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 06:48 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


Jeez, the RIAA has you trained to be their monkey.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 9094168
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12/23/2012 06:49 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


Jeez, the RIAA has you trained to be their monkey.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19824705


ad hominem attacks are pointless.
Explain.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1375041
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12/23/2012 06:50 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
This isn't simply altering the tiemcode like something like SCMS system from the CD Audio days
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Nor is it just adding metadata to the container.

This is actually changing the structure of the sine wave slightly so as to make it sonically "different". The software can then detect this different audio and determine where it originated from.

Something similar was done to pre-screen videos of movies. Where the movie industry would give copies of movies to movie reviewers before the movie was released. Well it turned out these people were a big source of the torrent copies. So they started giving each reviewer a slightly different copy that would have little visual queues throughout the movie. They were undetectable to most people. The software could then use the various patterns to create a "serial number" of that particular video and thus they could tell which movie reviewer released it to torrents.

The thing about getting busted for piracy is that people get busted for the way in which they acquire it, not the actual media itself. So if yo are willing to spend a little bit of money there are ways to legitametly acquire media, and then copy it for yourself.

Stuff like Netflix, Redbox & Spotify. You just have to be willing to pay a little bit of money, like a compromise. Its the idiots that download stuff non-chalantly from the internet that get caught. Because you have no idea who your downloading from or who's listening.
notinfallible (OP)

User ID: 30134138
United States
12/23/2012 06:51 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


I guess we are all just a bunch of fucking pirates then....

Watermarking audio isn't going to stop pirating. Banning guns isn't going to stop violence. Going to war isn't going to create peace.....

Anyone see a pattern emerging?

Last Edited by notinfallible on 12/23/2012 06:55 PM
To be upset over what you don't have, is to waste what you do have...
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 06:51 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168



It depends on the terms set by the inventor/creator of the product when it's sold.
Car makers don't get money when a used car is sold.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1375041
United States
12/23/2012 06:57 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


That is first sale doctorine and it is mine. I bought the item, I do not agree to any kind of a contract upon buying a physical movie or DVD....do you sign anything at the register???

A song or movie or book is no more "intellectual property" then a car or a hammer. They all took someones time and thought to create. I can't clone a Honda Civic and sell it as my own.
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
12/23/2012 06:58 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168



It depends on the terms set by the inventor/creator of the product when it's sold.
Car makers don't get money when a used car is sold.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30712465


agreed.
and that was my point. governments are saying piracy is illegal cos money isnt going to the copyight holder, sounds fair.

but if i buy a second hand copy, from a shop selling such items, then money still isnt going to the copyright holder.

so, what is the difference between piracy and buying second hand.

and, if you read the copyright notice on music/dvds/games etc, it says in HUGE writting it is illegal to sell, hire or lend this copy.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 07:00 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
old tech.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 07:01 PM
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password protected archive.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 9094168
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12/23/2012 07:02 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
old tech.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30030895


what is old tech?
notinfallible (OP)

User ID: 30134138
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12/23/2012 07:06 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
Maybe if I believed, for instance that the actual artist of a song would be the only person to benefit from these copyright laws I would care more about this, but until then, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people crying about copyrighted material being pirated.

Last Edited by notinfallible on 12/23/2012 07:08 PM
To be upset over what you don't have, is to waste what you do have...
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 07:08 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
What I am wondering is that if a law suit is brought against you can you claim that you pirated this SPECIFIC version of the song, as they are claiming, and you did not pirate the normal retail version.

Thus the actual "damages" they can claim against you would be severly limited. Since the version you took was probably never actually for sale and was purposefully put on torrent sites to capture people.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 07:09 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
and, if you read the copyright notice on music/dvds/games etc, it says in HUGE writting it is illegal to sell, hire or lend this copy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


On the outside package or the disc itself. Because once you open it you cannot return it, so thus how are you able to agree to such terms?
notinfallible (OP)

User ID: 30134138
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12/23/2012 07:11 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
and, if you read the copyright notice on music/dvds/games etc, it says in HUGE writting it is illegal to sell, hire or lend this copy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


On the outside package or the disc itself. Because once you open it you cannot return it, so thus how are you able to agree to such terms?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1375041


5a
To be upset over what you don't have, is to waste what you do have...
sounds

User ID: 30347594
Australia
12/23/2012 07:13 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
Maybe if I believed, for instance that the actual artist of a song would be the only person to benefit from these copyright laws I would care more about this, but until then, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people crying about copyrighted material being pirated.
 Quoting: notinfallible


^^This^^
Political correctness without wisdom ,is just Political nonsense.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 9094168
United Kingdom
12/23/2012 07:19 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
Maybe if I believed, for instance that the actual artist of a song would be the only person to benefit from these copyright laws I would care more about this, but until then, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people crying about copyrighted material being pirated.
 Quoting: notinfallible


agreed.

i care little for the copyright laws.
Kirk

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12/23/2012 07:21 PM

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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
it wont actually stop pirating will it?

every single one of you in some way or other is guilty of pirating:

how many of you copy tracks to your personal player?
that is pirating.

how many of you sell your unwated music/dvds/games to a second-hand shop?

That too is pirating, because when that item is bought, there is no money sent on to the copyright holder.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


No it is not. If I fashioned music boxes and someone sold theirs I didn't lose anything, if someone sold their cd same thing. I licensed that entity when I took payment for the entity (cd). As for the musicians they get very little. Sony and other music industry ilk ride the backs of the musicians. Sony wants more and more. Remember whom you serve when you advance such arguments.
Worry is a misuse of the imagination.
Anonymous Coward
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12/23/2012 07:25 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
and, if you read the copyright notice on music/dvds/games etc, it says in HUGE writting it is illegal to sell, hire or lend this copy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9094168


On the outside package or the disc itself. Because once you open it you cannot return it, so thus how are you able to agree to such terms?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1375041


5a
 Quoting: notinfallible


actually, if you care to watch the start of a dvd you will see it.
i am looking at the DISC of Assassins creed ii and it says on the disc:

RESALE AND RENTAL ARE PROHIBITED unless authorised by scree

it says this in print above the title.

5a back at ya
Nev6502

User ID: 19492756
Canada
12/23/2012 07:29 PM
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Re: Audio Fingerprinting and Audio Watermarking
If serial codes didn't work for software, there is no reason to believe that this even less secure method will not be pwned within days.

Any type of security that can be thought up will be breached by others that understand the technology.

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