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Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)

 
Judethz
Israel is Eternal

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12/27/2012 05:15 PM

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hbird CREATOR OR LIAR?... [link to www.chick.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 05:15 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
I personally believe that the Jews will be fooled into worshipping the Anti-Christ, who will do maricles and claim he is God. There's a lot of scriptures mentioning the AC which are worth reading but this one sticks out.

Matthew 24:23-31 Paraphrased

"Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ; or, Here he is! Do not believe it. For false christs will rise up, and false prophets. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I tell you beforehand. Then if they say to you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; do not go out. Behold, he is in the inner rooms; do not believe"

True believers (the elect) will not be able to be fooled by the AC because it says "if possible" even the believers will be fooled.
Morganite

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Jews believe that one person cannot die for the sins of another.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30738753


Even unbelieving Caiaphas, the high priest, unknowingly prophesied of Jesus death on behalf of the people.

"Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel fo the Jews, that it was expedient that on man should die for the people." John 18:14
morganite
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THERE IS NO "SECOND COMING" CONCEPT IN THE JEWISH BIBLE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30738753


Guess you've never read the Book of Malachi,huh?

Where it says that the prophet Elijah will return.

In any case, the Doctrine of "resurrection" was taught by Isaiah, Daniel, Jesus and Mohammed as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

So everyone returns; not merely once, but over and over and over and over again.

So Jesus will return, Elijah will return, as will Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and Jacob, and Daniel and Mohammed.

Michael
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12/27/2012 05:17 PM
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What do you fake jews care?

Your own rabbis confess to worshipping Lucifer.

Keep your lies to yourself son of Cain.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29417490


The messianic Jews are the fake Jews
Morganite

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12/27/2012 05:20 PM
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morganite
4Q529

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12/27/2012 05:27 PM
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"All the dead shall rise again " ....That's a tall order but kind of cool, Moshiach Zombies. My grandparents were filled with formaldehyde when they were planted, how will the Moshiach deal with that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29192099


the prophecy must be fulfilled
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30738753


But you completely disunderstand what is meant by this statement.

The 'raising of the dead' is a reference to the revelation of the memories of previous lives; as described figuratively in Chapter 26:19 of the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 27:52-53 of the Gospel of Matthew and Chapter 20:34-36 of the Gospel of Luke.

Jesus specifically denied the Egyptian 'god of the dead' (Chapter 20:38 of the Gospel of Luke)-Pharisaical doctrine of the general physical raising of dead bodies from the grave.

And, if you notice, the Hebrew verb root used in Chapter 26:19 of the Book of Isaiah, which is a description of the revelation of the memories of previous lives, is the same Hebrew verb root used in Chapter 12:1 of the Book of Daniel in reference to the 'arising' of Michael.

Michael
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12/27/2012 05:32 PM
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:hbird: CREATOR OR LIAR?... [link to www.chick.com]
 Quoting: Judethz


Deceit.

[link to www.catholic.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 05:33 PM
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I personally believe that the Jews will be fooled into worshipping the Anti-Christ, who will do maricles and claim he is God. There's a lot of scriptures mentioning the AC which are worth reading but this one sticks out.

Matthew 24:23-31 Paraphrased

"Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ; or, Here he is! Do not believe it. For false christs will rise up, and false prophets. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I tell you beforehand. Then if they say to you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; do not go out. Behold, he is in the inner rooms; do not believe"

True believers (the elect) will not be able to be fooled by the AC because it says "if possible" even the believers will be fooled.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30887391


Jesus did not fulfill any of the following prophecies in the Torah that the messiah was supposed to fulfill

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Christianity and Islam is a complete perversion of what God wanted
4Q529

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12/27/2012 05:35 PM
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Jews believe that one person cannot die for the sins of another.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30738753


It is, of course, much worse than that.

Jesus had to be 'eliminated' because he taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth', in opposition to both the Sadducees, who denied the "resurrection" altogether, and the Pharisees, who disinterpreted the "resurrection" in accordance with the Egyptian 'god of the dead' religion.

And it was this doctrine of "vicarious atonement"--concocted by the Pharisee, Paul--necessitating the demonization of "the Jews", which led directly to the several hundreds of years of anti-Semitism culminating in the Holocaust.

Michael
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12/27/2012 05:36 PM
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"All the dead shall rise again " ....That's a tall order but kind of cool, Moshiach Zombies. My grandparents were filled with formaldehyde when they were planted, how will the Moshiach deal with that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29192099


the prophecy must be fulfilled
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30738753


But you completely disunderstand what is meant by this statement.

The 'raising of the dead' is a reference to the revelation of the memories of previous lives; as described figuratively in Chapter 26:19 of the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 27:52-53 of the Gospel of Matthew and Chapter 20:34-36 of the Gospel of Luke.

Jesus specifically denied the Egyptian 'god of the dead' (Chapter 20:38 of the Gospel of Luke)-Pharisaical doctrine of the general physical raising of dead bodies from the grave.

And, if you notice, the Hebrew verb root used in Chapter 26:19 of the Book of Isaiah, which is a description of the revelation of the memories of previous lives, is the same Hebrew verb root used in Chapter 12:1 of the Book of Daniel in reference to the 'arising' of Michael.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Christians say that he'll do the unfinished ones when he comes back, but the Hebrew scripture makes no mention of a second coming of the Messiah.

The so-called prophecies that Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled are all either mistranslations, taken out of context, or trivial.


Jews believe God hates human sacrifices

In Deuteronomy, Gd calls human sacrifice something that Gd hates; an abomination to Gd.


Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Etrnl thy Gd: for every abomination to the Etrnl, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]



In Jeremiah, Gd tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept, that it did not even come into Gd's mind.



Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Etrnl, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]


Similarly, in Psalm 106 and in Ezekiel 16:




Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 05:36 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
steve forbes said mitt romney would win.

[link to www.forbes.com]

who was wrong?

forbes or romney?
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 05:37 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)

 Quoting: Morganite


Jesus did not fulfill any of the following prophecies in the Torah that the messiah was supposed to fulfill

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Jesus could not be the Messiah
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 05:45 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
THERE IS NO "SECOND COMING" CONCEPT IN THE JEWISH BIBLE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30738753


Guess you've never read the Book of Malachi,huh?

Where it says that the prophet Elijah will return.

In any case, the Doctrine of "resurrection" was taught by Isaiah, Daniel, Jesus and Mohammed as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

So everyone returns; not merely once, but over and over and over and over again.

So Jesus will return, Elijah will return, as will Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and Jacob, and Daniel and Mohammed.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


the Christian Bible is not the original Jewish Tanach. A lot of the predictions were a combo of mistranslations, but changes to wording to support their theology. So, a lot of the convincing arguments go away, when you go back to the original Torah & prophets & writings (our Tanakh). (Such as Issiah 53.)

Christians say that he'll do the unfinished ones when he comes back, but the Hebrew scripture makes no mention of a second coming of the Messiah.

The so-called prophecies that Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled are all either mistranslations, taken out of context, or trivial.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 05:47 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
The Bible(tanak) is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'
4Q529

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12/27/2012 05:51 PM
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Jesus could not be the Messiah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28809519


(Sigh)

The Christians are guilty of idolatry for worshiping Jesus as not merely the messiah, but as 'God' 'Himself'.

In response to which many Jews are guilty of an opposite kind of idolatry, emphasizing that Jesus is an 'anti-messiah'. (And there are even indications that some Jews demonize Jesus as much as the Christians demonize the Jews.)

But both of these approaches are distractions from the Truth.

Forget the identity of Jesus for just one moment.

The most important thing is the Doctrine that he taught; a doctrine contradicted by the Pharisees and by the Christian and Muslim theologians to this very day.

Michael
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12/27/2012 05:56 PM
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"All the dead shall rise again " ....That's a tall order but kind of cool, Moshiach Zombies. My grandparents were filled with formaldehyde when they were planted, how will the Moshiach deal with that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29192099


It is said that when the spirit manifests into a material body, the spirit is dead. They say that because the veil drops.

"All the dead shall rise", may mean that our spirits will 'live' again while we are embodied in flesh. In other words, the veil is gone.
 Quoting: Septenary Man


clappa

Raising the "Ded" means, to me, this:

That, we who are ded now, shall be raised. To give those who have died another life. This is only possibly through the mind and the union of the spirit self which allows us to travel to many unseen places and visit with those who have already entered the "other side" of "total spirit"

The reason I believe he will return this generation, is because, He's Right Fucking Here. And the Internet is in full force, which is full union with the entire plantet. We are in need of a global spiritaul learder. We are headed to globalization as it is. People who don't believe in it make it seem there was no international trade before the 1900's and that's just bullshit.
Morganite

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12/27/2012 05:59 PM
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Ask God to open your eyes to the scriptures: Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

Isaiah 53

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [b]for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Last Edited by Morganite on 12/27/2012 06:01 PM
morganite
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"All the dead shall rise again " ....That's a tall order but kind of cool, Moshiach Zombies. My grandparents were filled with formaldehyde when they were planted, how will the Moshiach deal with that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 29192099


It is said that when the spirit manifests into a material body, the spirit is dead. They say that because the veil drops.

"All the dead shall rise", may mean that our spirits will 'live' again while we are embodied in flesh. In other words, the veil is gone.
 Quoting: Septenary Man


clappa

Raising the "Ded" means, to me, this:

That, we who are ded now, shall be raised. To give those who have died another life. This is only possibly through the mind and the union of the spirit self which allows us to travel to many unseen places and visit with those who have already entered the "other side" of "total spirit"

The reason I believe he will return this generation, is because, He's Right Fucking Here. And the Internet is in full force, which is full union with the entire plantet. We are in need of a global spiritaul learder. We are headed to globalization as it is. People who don't believe in it make it seem there was no international trade before the 1900's and that's just bullshit.
 Quoting: Dark Stranger, Sir AC 3003754


Human interpretations sigh
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
The Christian idea of the messiah is that Jesus was the blood sacrifice that saves everyone from his or her sin. But who, exactly, died on that cross? If it was Jesus-the-god, that would mean that Gd can die. But how can Gd die? If it was only Jesus-the-human, then all Christians are left with is a human sacrifice. What, exactly, does Gd say about human sacrifice in the TaNaKH?

In Deuteronomy, Gd calls human sacrifice something that Gd hates; an abomination to Gd.

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Etrnl thy Gd: for every abomination to the Etrnl, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]


In Jeremiah, Gd tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept, that it did not even come into Gd's mind.

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Etrnl, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]

Similarly, in Psalm 106 and in Ezekiel 16:

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. [Psalm 106:37-38]

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter? [Ezekiel 16:20]


Some Christians might claim that Gd seemed to want human sacrifices, because Gd appeared to demand one from Abraham, when He commanded the sacrifice of Isaac. This is a misreading of the biblical text in Genesis. When one reads this section carefully, one sees something quite different.


Most Jewish biblical commentators interpret this incident as a test of Abraham's loyalty: Gd wanted to see if he would actually kill Isaac, his own son. However, a number of Jewish commentators from the medieval era, and many in the modern era as well, read the text somewhat differently. The early rabbinic midrash 'Genesis Rabbah' imagines Gd as saying 'I never considered telling Abraham to slaughter Isaac.' Rabbi Yona Ibn Janach (Spain, 11th century) wrote that Gd demanded only a symbolic sacrifice. Rabbi Yosef Ibn Caspi (Spain, early 14th century) wrote that Abraham's imagination led him astray, making him believe that he had been commanded to sacrifice his son. Ibn Caspi writes 'How could Gd command such a revolting thing?'

Rabbi Joseph H. Hertz (Chief Rabbi of the British Empire), writes that child sacrifice was actually 'rife among the Semitic peoples,' and suggests that 'in that age, it was astounding that Abraham's Gd should have interposed to prevent the sacrifice, not that He should have asked for it.' Hertz interprets the Binding of Isaac as demonstrating that human sacrifice is abhorrent. 'Unlike the cruel heathen deities, it was the spiritual surrender alone that Gd required.'

Let's examine the text:

And it came to pass after these things, that Gd did test Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. [Genesis 22:1-2]

The text reads that Abraham should 'offer him there for a burnt offering'. It does not read that Gd told Abraham to kill him for a burnt offering!

The original Hebrew is actually even clearer on this issue. The Hebrew reads, 'v’ha-ah-ley-hu sham l’o-lah.' It translates as, 'Raise him up there FOR a sacrifice.' The text does not say that Gd demanded Isaac to BE a sacrifice, but rather only that he should be raised up for one.

Furthermore, a close reading of the text tells us that this was a test, and that Abraham did not pass it. What is the test to which Abraham is being put? Gd wants Abraham to tell Gd, 'NO! I WON’T DO IT!' Abraham had just defended people he did not know in Sodom and Gemorrah. So Gd's test of Abraham is whether or not he would defend his own family as vigorously as he had defended strangers. Like many of us, he did not. He flunked. Many of us, for example, will talk sweetly to a voice on the phone, get off the phone, and then speak disrespectfully to our kids or our spouse, treating others, even strangers, better than we treat those we love.

When the test is first put before Abraham, the day before he actually takes the knife, preparing to kill his own son, Gd speaks to him directly:

And it came to pass after these things, that Gd did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And He said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. [Genesis 22:1-2]

Please not that it is Gd speaking directly to Abraham, and not an angel of Gd. However, after he takes hold of the knife, it is only an Angel of Gd who speaks to Abraham:

And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the Angel of the Etrnl called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. [Genesis 22:10-11]

And then later it is still only an Angel of Gd who speaks to Abraham:

And the Angel of the Etrnl called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time… [Genesis 22:15]

As a matter of fact, Gd never spoke directly to Abraham again. From the very moment that Abraham demonstrated his willingness to actually kill his son, Gd never again spoke directly to Abraham.

Note also that the promises of the Angel of Gd to Abraham are nothing new, they are only reiterating what Gd, directly, had already promised to him (cf. Gen. 12:2, 12:3, 12:7, 13:15, 13:16, 13:17, 15:1, 15:5, 15:7, 15:14, 15:18, 17:2, 17:4, 17:6, 17:8, 17:16). It is as if Gd was saying to the Angel, 'I am through with him. Pat him on the head because he thinks he did right, remind him of his reward for his previous faith, but I am done with him!'

You see, Gd had already told Abraham His covenant would go through Isaac. Gd wanted Abraham to say, 'Wait a minute, You, Gd, are now going against Your own word!' Gd knows that we are always closer to those we will argue with, than with those we will not.

When person does wrong, who are you more likely to admonish: someone you know, or someone you do not know?

Gd wants us to be that close to Gd. Gd wants us to be like Abraham, who was willing to argue with Gd regarding strangers in Sodom and Gemorrah. Gd wants us to be as close to Gd as Moses was, indicated by the fact that Moses argued with Gd -- repeatedly -- on behalf of the People of Israel. Gd wants us to be like Job, who felt so close to Gd that he could argue with Gd for justice. We can argue with Gd like true close friends can argue with each other, because Gd is truly our Closest Friend. Abraham flunked Gd's test, and so Gd never spoke to Abraham directly again.

Note also the true meaning of the word, 'Israel,' which is 'One who wrestles with Gd.' We are not to be blind followers (the word 'Christian' means 'follower of the Christ’), and we are not to merely submit to Gd ('Islam' means 'voluntary submission to Gd.' A Muslim is one who submits to Gd).

We Jews are to be wrestlers with Gd, like True Friends can do with each other. THAT is how close Gd wants us to be with Him.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:03 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
steve forbes said mitt romney would win.

[link to www.forbes.com]

who was wrong?

forbes or romney?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


my point is this.....

you take a few statements written about someone hundreds of years before he arrived on earth that are written by 1/2 a dozen or so different guys.

then, you have a bunch of guys analyse these statements in this book and come to their conclusion about what to expect.

when, the guy shows up. call him creator, god, whatever...and he says 'hi guys, it's me - the one you've been waiting for. i'm here to show you a few things.'

the guy isn't dressed the way you expected, doesn't have the mannerisms you expected etc.

so, instead of listening to the guy and paying attention to what he says, you keep checking the book and the cliff notes. you come to the conclusion that he can't be who he says he is.

that makes no sense to me.

it's kind of like the people that go to college, study business and decide that they know all there is to know about business. but, in the REAL WORLD, they can't do much more than work a cash register at wal-mart without going broke.

it's ONE thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because....'. it's another thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because joe blow said he would be wearing shorts and a tank top'.

right now, you're doing the latter.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:03 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Ask God to open your eyes to the scriptures: Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

Isaiah 53

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [b]for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 Quoting: Morganite


Your Bible says the Messiah is suppose to fulfill these prophecies

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
Anonymous Coward
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Bahamas
12/27/2012 06:04 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
steve forbes said mitt romney would win.

[link to www.forbes.com]

who was wrong?

forbes or romney?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


my point is this.....

you take a few statements written about someone hundreds of years before he arrived on earth that are written by 1/2 a dozen or so different guys.

then, you have a bunch of guys analyse these statements in this book and come to their conclusion about what to expect.

when, the guy shows up. call him creator, god, whatever...and he says 'hi guys, it's me - the one you've been waiting for. i'm here to show you a few things.'

the guy isn't dressed the way you expected, doesn't have the mannerisms you expected etc.

so, instead of listening to the guy and paying attention to what he says, you keep checking the book and the cliff notes. you come to the conclusion that he can't be who he says he is.

that makes no sense to me.

it's kind of like the people that go to college, study business and decide that they know all there is to know about business. but, in the REAL WORLD, they can't do much more than work a cash register at wal-mart without going broke.

it's ONE thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because....'. it's another thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because joe blow said he would be wearing shorts and a tank top'.

right now, you're bordering on the latter.
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


Prophecies are from God therefore must be fulfilled anyone who claims to be the messiah must fulled the prophecies that God said they would fulfill or they are not of God and a false teacher.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 30780247
United States
12/27/2012 06:08 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
steve forbes said mitt romney would win.

[link to www.forbes.com]

who was wrong?

forbes or romney?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


my point is this.....

you take a few statements written about someone hundreds of years before he arrived on earth that are written by 1/2 a dozen or so different guys.

then, you have a bunch of guys analyse these statements in this book and come to their conclusion about what to expect.

when, the guy shows up. call him creator, god, whatever...and he says 'hi guys, it's me - the one you've been waiting for. i'm here to show you a few things.'

the guy isn't dressed the way you expected, doesn't have the mannerisms you expected etc.

so, instead of listening to the guy and paying attention to what he says, you keep checking the book and the cliff notes. you come to the conclusion that he can't be who he says he is.

that makes no sense to me.

it's kind of like the people that go to college, study business and decide that they know all there is to know about business. but, in the REAL WORLD, they can't do much more than work a cash register at wal-mart without going broke.

it's ONE thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because....'. it's another thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because joe blow said he would be wearing shorts and a tank top'.

right now, you're bordering on the latter.
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


Prophecies are from God therefore must be fulfilled anyone who claims to be the messiah must fulled the prophecies that God said they would fulfill or they are not of God and a false teacher.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how many prophecies are there on this website?

which ones are from god?

until you take your nose out of 'the book' and look around you, you won't get it.

maybe that was the lesson.
Anonymous Coward
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Bahamas
12/27/2012 06:09 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
how have we Jews, who invented the term, always defined the term 'messiah?' Our definition is based on Scripture:


1. The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said. But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of the union between a human woman and Gd (as were many other pagan deities, see above) rather than two human parents.

2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5). According to Christian theology, Jesus's father was Gd. Therefore, Jesus' lineage does not go through his human 'father' -- Joseph, the husband of Mary.


3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was not a descendant of Solomon, but of Solomon's half-brother Nathan. Therefore Jesus was not a descendant of King David through King Solomon, and fails this test as well.


4. The Messiah may not be a descendant of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed. (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.

5. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, together with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-

6). This is contradicted by Jesus himself (Matthew 10:34-3
3

7).

According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah -- one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include: 6. The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14).
But Jesus had no children.


7. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above).


8. The Messiah brings about the world-wide conversion of all peoples to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.


9. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.


10. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of Gd is Gd (Isaiah 11:9).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.


11. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9).

12. The Messiah gathers to Israel all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24).

13. The Messiah rebuilds the Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28).

14. After the Messiah comes, there will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

15. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8).

16. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6).

17. The nations of the earth will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12).

18. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).

19. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).

20. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).

21. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12).

22. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13).

23. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been in error, that the Jews had it right all along, and that the sins of the Gentile nations - their persecutions and the murders they committed - have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53).



These biblically-based changes in the world are very real, perceptible, noticeable, and knowable. The changes that Christianity claims were made by Jesus are not perceptible at all. They must be accepted on faith, and faith alone. How can one establish that Jesus died for one's sins, except by faith? The changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism would be provable, but the changes made by the messiah according to Christianity can only be taken on faith.

Even Christians recognize that the changes the real Messiah will make, according to the Bible and Judaism, have not yet happened. This is why Christianity had to invent the idea of a Second Coming.

The real Messiah has no need to come a second time to do those things -- he must do them the first time around in order to actually be the Messiah.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 4028898
United Kingdom
12/27/2012 06:11 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
You deny even what is in the beginning
Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh – Mortal
Kenan – Sorrow
Mahalalel – The blessed God
Jared – Shall come down
Enoch – Teaching
Methuselah – His death shall bring
Lamech – Despairing
Noah – Comfort and rest

Jesus said it - he laid down his own life.
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:18

Equating that to parents who sacrifice their own child to the fire and star gods is blasphemous.

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord
Morganite

User ID: 11765896
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12/27/2012 06:12 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Forget the identity of Jesus for just one moment.

 Quoting: 4Q529


No, Jesus identity is everything! Jesus claimed to be God - to be equal with God the Father because he is God the Son. - That's why the pharasees sought to stone him and later crucified him.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

"I and my Father are one."

"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?"

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:30-33

morganite
Anonymous Coward
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Bahamas
12/27/2012 06:12 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
steve forbes said mitt romney would win.

[link to www.forbes.com]

who was wrong?

forbes or romney?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


my point is this.....

you take a few statements written about someone hundreds of years before he arrived on earth that are written by 1/2 a dozen or so different guys.

then, you have a bunch of guys analyse these statements in this book and come to their conclusion about what to expect.

when, the guy shows up. call him creator, god, whatever...and he says 'hi guys, it's me - the one you've been waiting for. i'm here to show you a few things.'

the guy isn't dressed the way you expected, doesn't have the mannerisms you expected etc.

so, instead of listening to the guy and paying attention to what he says, you keep checking the book and the cliff notes. you come to the conclusion that he can't be who he says he is.

that makes no sense to me.

it's kind of like the people that go to college, study business and decide that they know all there is to know about business. but, in the REAL WORLD, they can't do much more than work a cash register at wal-mart without going broke.

it's ONE thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because....'. it's another thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because joe blow said he would be wearing shorts and a tank top'.

right now, you're bordering on the latter.
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


Prophecies are from God therefore must be fulfilled anyone who claims to be the messiah must fulled the prophecies that God said they would fulfill or they are not of God and a false teacher.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how many prophecies are there on this website?

which ones are from god?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man



The Old testament (torah) prophets (nabiy) predicted that what the Messiah would fulfill certain prophecies and Jesus didn't fulfill it you can see what the OLD testament prophets predicted above and you can see that Jesus didn't fulfill it.

Jesus may be a great man but he didn't fulfill God's prophecies about the messiah
Dr. Greenthumb

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12/27/2012 06:12 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Jesus came to bring the sword... The next guy (Why wouldn't we have a Neo? We had a Joseph and a Moses and THEN a Jesus, and the bible speaks of 4 seals) will wield it.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:13 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Forget the identity of Jesus for just one moment.

 Quoting: 4Q529


No, Jesus identity is everything! Jesus claimed to be God - to be equal with God the Father because he is God the Son. - That's why the pharasees sought to stone him and later crucified him.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

"I and my Father are one."

"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?"

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:30-33

 Quoting: Morganite


God abhors human sacrifice