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Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:14 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Yet you Christians base your Old testament on the Jewish torah
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:15 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
...


my point is this.....

you take a few statements written about someone hundreds of years before he arrived on earth that are written by 1/2 a dozen or so different guys.

then, you have a bunch of guys analyse these statements in this book and come to their conclusion about what to expect.

when, the guy shows up. call him creator, god, whatever...and he says 'hi guys, it's me - the one you've been waiting for. i'm here to show you a few things.'

the guy isn't dressed the way you expected, doesn't have the mannerisms you expected etc.

so, instead of listening to the guy and paying attention to what he says, you keep checking the book and the cliff notes. you come to the conclusion that he can't be who he says he is.

that makes no sense to me.

it's kind of like the people that go to college, study business and decide that they know all there is to know about business. but, in the REAL WORLD, they can't do much more than work a cash register at wal-mart without going broke.

it's ONE thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because....'. it's another thing to say 'i don't believe jc was the messiah because joe blow said he would be wearing shorts and a tank top'.

right now, you're bordering on the latter.
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


Prophecies are from God therefore must be fulfilled anyone who claims to be the messiah must fulled the prophecies that God said they would fulfill or they are not of God and a false teacher.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how many prophecies are there on this website?

which ones are from god?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man



The Old testament (torah) prophets (nabiy) predicted that what the Messiah would fulfill certain prophecies and Jesus didn't fulfill it you can see what the OLD testament prophets predicted above and you can see that Jesus didn't fulfill it.

Jesus may be a great man but he didn't fulfill God's prophecies about the messiah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how do you know a prophet is for real?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
You deny even what is in the beginning
Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh – Mortal
Kenan – Sorrow
Mahalalel – The blessed God
Jared – Shall come down
Enoch – Teaching
Methuselah – His death shall bring
Lamech – Despairing
Noah – Comfort and rest

Jesus said it - he laid down his own life.
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:18

Equating that to parents who sacrifice their own child to the fire and star gods is blasphemous.

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4028898


how have we Jews, who invented the term, always defined the term 'messiah?' Our definition is based on Scripture:


1. The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said. But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of the union between a human woman and Gd (as were many other pagan deities, see above) rather than two human parents.

2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5). According to Christian theology, Jesus's father was Gd. Therefore, Jesus' lineage does not go through his human 'father' -- Joseph, the husband of Mary.


3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was not a descendant of Solomon, but of Solomon's half-brother Nathan. Therefore Jesus was not a descendant of King David through King Solomon, and fails this test as well.


4. The Messiah may not be a descendant of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed. (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.

5. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, together with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-

6). This is contradicted by Jesus himself (Matthew 10:34-3
3

7).

According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah -- one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include: 6. The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14).
But Jesus had no children.


7. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above).


8. The Messiah brings about the world-wide conversion of all peoples to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.


9. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.


10. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of Gd is Gd (Isaiah 11:9).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.


11. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9).

12. The Messiah gathers to Israel all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24).

13. The Messiah rebuilds the Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28).

14. After the Messiah comes, there will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

15. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8).

16. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6).

17. The nations of the earth will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12).

18. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).

19. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).

20. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).

21. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12).

22. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13).

23. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been in error, that the Jews had it right all along, and that the sins of the Gentile nations - their persecutions and the murders they committed - have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53).



These biblically-based changes in the world are very real, perceptible, noticeable, and knowable. The changes that Christianity claims were made by Jesus are not perceptible at all. They must be accepted on faith, and faith alone. How can one establish that Jesus died for one's sins, except by faith? The changes made by the Messiah according to Judaism would be provable, but the changes made by the messiah according to Christianity can only be taken on faith.

Even Christians recognize that the changes the real Messiah will make, according to the Bible and Judaism, have not yet happened. This is why Christianity had to invent the idea of a Second Coming.

The real Messiah has no need to come a second time to do those things -- he must do them the first time around in order to actually be the Messiah.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:16 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
wow perfect description of the antichrist in islam.
Morganite

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12/27/2012 06:16 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Ask God to open your eyes to the scriptures: Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

Isaiah 53

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [b]for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 Quoting: Morganite


Your Bible says the Messiah is suppose to fulfill these prophecies

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


Come to grips with the 1st one he fulfilled as his 1st coming in Isa.53... otherwise... You have no hope of even understanding that he's coming a 2nd time to fulfill the rest!

Get alone with God tonight and ask him to reveal who fulfilled Isa. 53
morganite
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12/27/2012 06:17 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
...


Prophecies are from God therefore must be fulfilled anyone who claims to be the messiah must fulled the prophecies that God said they would fulfill or they are not of God and a false teacher.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how many prophecies are there on this website?

which ones are from god?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man



The Old testament (torah) prophets (nabiy) predicted that what the Messiah would fulfill certain prophecies and Jesus didn't fulfill it you can see what the OLD testament prophets predicted above and you can see that Jesus didn't fulfill it.

Jesus may be a great man but he didn't fulfill God's prophecies about the messiah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how do you know a prophet is for real?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


If these prophets aren't real then Christianity Judaism and Islam would not be real because Christianity old testament is based on the Torah but Christians perverted it
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:18 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Ask God to open your eyes to the scriptures: Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

Isaiah 53

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [b]for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 Quoting: Morganite


Your Bible says the Messiah is suppose to fulfill these prophecies

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


Come to grips with the 1st one he fulfilled as his 1st coming in Isa.53... otherwise... You have no hope of even understanding that he's coming a 2nd time to fulfill the rest!

Get alone with God tonight and ask him to reveal who fulfilled Isa. 53
 Quoting: Morganite


The Tanak in Hebrew has no concept of a Second coming the OT prophets says the Messiah will fulfill all in his lifetime
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 30780247
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12/27/2012 06:18 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
...


how many prophecies are there on this website?

which ones are from god?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man



The Old testament (torah) prophets (nabiy) predicted that what the Messiah would fulfill certain prophecies and Jesus didn't fulfill it you can see what the OLD testament prophets predicted above and you can see that Jesus didn't fulfill it.

Jesus may be a great man but he didn't fulfill God's prophecies about the messiah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


how do you know a prophet is for real?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


If these prophets aren't real then Christianity Judaism and Islam would not be real because Christianity old testament is based on the Torah but Christians perverted it
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


words etched in stone are so 4,000 years ago.

didn't you get the memo?
Anonymous Coward
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Bahamas
12/27/2012 06:19 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Ask God to open your eyes to the scriptures: Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

Isaiah 53

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [b]for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 Quoting: Morganite


Your Bible says the Messiah is suppose to fulfill these prophecies

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


Come to grips with the 1st one he fulfilled as his 1st coming in Isa.53... otherwise... You have no hope of even understanding that he's coming a 2nd time to fulfill the rest!

Get alone with God tonight and ask him to reveal who fulfilled Isa. 53
 Quoting: Morganite


You get close to God because Christianity has perverted his words
Morganite

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12/27/2012 06:20 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)

morganite
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:23 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
The Christian understanding is that Jesus, the one they believe to be the messiah, died for the sins of all humanity. In this view, the messiah is supposed to be the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin; in other words, a human sacrifice. However, not only is this concept of the messiah not found in our Bible, but we are also taught quite clearly and consistently that no one can die for the sins of another, that one person's guilt cannot be forgiven because of another person's death. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses tries to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the People, by being written 'out of Thy book which Thou has written.' To be written out of Gd's book means to be written out of the Book of Life; therefore Moses is asking to die for the sins of the People. Gd's response is that it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:


And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Etrnl; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Etrnl, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin...and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Etrnl said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Etrnl plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. [Exodus 32:30-35]


Please note that the text tells us that the one who sins is the one who receives the punishment, and no one else. The point is made again in Deuteronomy 24:16, where it explicitly says that no one can die for the sins of another:


The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]

The whole of Chapter 18 of the Book of Ezekiel expands upon and clarifies this principle. Furthermore, this chapter teaches that all we have to do to gain Gd's forgiveness is to stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good. Nowhere does it say that we must have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Please see Essay #2, 'A blood sacrifice is not required for forgiveness of sins.'


The word of the Etrnl came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Etrnl Gd, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Etrnl Gd: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27]

Again, this same principle is stated in the Book of Jeremiah. In the 31st chapter, Gd tells of a time in the future when no one will continue to believe in such a thing.

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. [Jeremiah 31:29-30]


This is nothing but a restatement and elaboration on Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' The simple and literal meaning of the biblical text needs no interpretation. It is clear and it is consistent:


No one can die to atone for the sins of another.


This is why Jews do not believe there was any redemptive power at all in Jesus' death. Such a belief is unbiblical; it has no basis in the sacred text and no justification in Jewish theology. This doctrine can be seen as an invention for the sake of post-event rationalization, in other words, to give meaning and purpose to the crucifixion after the fact.


Some Christians may choose to interpret other verses in the Bible to indicate the opposite, that one CAN die for the sins of another. If that were the case, this would mean that Gd changed His mind, or that He did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'


But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

For I am the Etrnl, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In a newer technique, some Christians are now quoting rabbinic writings to make it seem as if the rabbis accepted this concept of vicarious atonement. However, even if several respected rabbis did agree with this idea, we must still go by what the Bible states, and the Bible states, in no uncertain
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Please note that the text tells us that the one who sins is the one who receives the punishment, and no one else. The point is made again in Deuteronomy 24:16, where it explicitly says that no one can die for the sins of another:


The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]

The whole of Chapter 18 of the Book of Ezekiel expands upon and clarifies this principle. Furthermore, this chapter teaches that all we have to do to gain Gd's forgiveness is to stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good. Nowhere does it say that we must have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Please see Essay #2, 'A blood sacrifice is not required for forgiveness of sins.'
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:24 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
you keep copying and pasting what other people say.

why is that?
Morganite

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12/27/2012 06:25 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
I post these vids because they're accurate and excellent in pointing to the veracity of the scriptures.



morganite
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 Quoting: Morganite


Jesus is not God,he is not the Messiah he did not fulfill what God said the Messiah would do 600 prophecies he did not fulfill that the Bible says the Messiah would fulfill in his time on earth. The OT prophets also say that the Messiah would be fully human so either the prophets are right or you are wrong.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:26 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
I post these vids because they're accurate and excellent in pointing to the veracity of the scriptures.



 Quoting: Morganite


The Christian understanding is that Jesus, the one they believe to be the messiah, died for the sins of all humanity. In this view, the messiah is supposed to be the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin; in other words, a human sacrifice. However, not only is this concept of the messiah not found in our Bible, but we are also taught quite clearly and consistently that no one can die for the sins of another, that one person's guilt cannot be forgiven because of another person's death. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses tries to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the People, by being written 'out of Thy book which Thou has written.' To be written out of Gd's book means to be written out of the Book of Life; therefore Moses is asking to die for the sins of the People. Gd's response is that it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:


And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Etrnl; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Etrnl, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin...and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Etrnl said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Etrnl plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. [Exodus 32:30-35]


Please note that the text tells us that the one who sins is the one who receives the punishment, and no one else. The point is made again in Deuteronomy 24:16, where it explicitly says that no one can die for the sins of another:


The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]

The whole of Chapter 18 of the Book of Ezekiel expands upon and clarifies this principle. Furthermore, this chapter teaches that all we have to do to gain Gd's forgiveness is to stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good. Nowhere does it say that we must have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Please see Essay #2, 'A blood sacrifice is not required for forgiveness of sins.'


The word of the Etrnl came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Etrnl Gd, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Etrnl Gd: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27]

Again, this same principle is stated in the Book of Jeremiah. In the 31st chapter, Gd tells of a time in the future when no one will continue to believe in such a thing.

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. [Jeremiah 31:29-30]


This is nothing but a restatement and elaboration on Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' The simple and literal meaning of the biblical text needs no interpretation. It is clear and it is consistent:


No one can die to atone for the sins of another.


This is why Jews do not believe there was any redemptive power at all in Jesus' death. Such a belief is unbiblical; it has no basis in the sacred text and no justification in Jewish theology. This doctrine can be seen as an invention for the sake of post-event rationalization, in other words, to give meaning and purpose to the crucifixion after the fact.


Some Christians may choose to interpret other verses in the Bible to indicate the opposite, that one CAN die for the sins of another. If that were the case, this would mean that Gd changed His mind, or that He did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'


But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

For I am the Etrnl, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In a newer technique, some Christians are now quoting rabbinic writings to make it seem as if the rabbis accepted this concept of vicarious atonement. However, even if several respected rabbis did agree with this idea, we must still go by what the Bible states, and the Bible states, in no uncertain

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:26 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
you keep copying and pasting what other people say.

why is that?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


Because I hate repeating myself
ANHEDONIC

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12/27/2012 06:27 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Scripture War!!!!

pope2

pop

Last Edited by ANHEDONIC on 12/27/2012 06:28 PM

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:28 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
i picked one of your verses at random

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

how does this apply to a messiah, in what context, and when was or is it to be fulfilled?
ANHEDONIC

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12/27/2012 06:28 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
What's the Jewish population of the Bahamas like? You riding solo over there?

charlie

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:29 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Scripture War!!!!

pope2

:pop:
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


better than icbm's
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:32 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
What's the Jewish population of the Bahamas like? You riding solo over there?

charlie
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


Yea, pretty much just me and my family,because the Bahamas is mostly a Christian nation
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:38 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
i picked one of your verses at random

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

how does this apply to a messiah, in what context, and when was or is it to be fulfilled?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


When the Moshiach comes he will not announce his coming but all will no that it is Him because of the prophecies being fulfilled the messiah will not be God but his chosen one and the Tanak says that he will bring peace. Jesus did not fulfill any of the messianic prophecies the prophets of old said the Messiah would do.Her is proof of this

Reasons Jesus wasn’t the Jewish Messiah

divine birth/divinity - (the Jewish Messiah will be human – G-d cannot become human – Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Hosea 11:9, Ezekiel 28:2, Numbers 23:19) - strike

performing miracles - (JM won't perform miracles) - strike

taking on the sins of others - (no one can take on the sins of others – Deuteronomy 24:16, Exodus 32:30-35, Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27) - strike

breaking Sabbath - strike (JM will be observant) - strike

sacrificed/rising from the dead - (G-d rejects human sacrifice and blood sacrifice is NOT an absolute requirement – Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6, Psalm 106:37-38, Ezekiel 16:20, Leviticus 5:11-13, Jonah 3:10, Leviticus 17, Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 16:47, Numbers 31:50, Isaiah 6:6-7, Jeremiah 7:22-23, Psalm 51:16-17) - strike

prophecies unfilled - (JM will accomplish them in one life time) - strike
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:40 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
you didn't answer the question.

so, i'm assuming you have an agenda rather than a desire to have an honest discussion.

adios.
Morganite

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12/27/2012 06:41 PM

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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
Nowhere does it say that we must have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Please see Essay #2, 'A blood sacrifice is not required for forgiveness of sins.'
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30978096


Read Hebrews 10 which explains how the O.T. sacrifices were a shadow of the One sacrifice to come.

Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

morganite
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
you didn't answer the question.

so, i'm assuming you have an agenda rather than a desire to have an honest discussion.

adios.
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


No I have no agenda ,what is the question.
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:43 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
i picked one of your verses at random

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

how does this apply to a messiah, in what context, and when was or is it to be fulfilled?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man
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12/27/2012 06:48 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
A bunch of grown adults arguing over different
fairy tale books. lmao

Religitards are TOTAL TARDS
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:49 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
i picked one of your verses at random

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

how does this apply to a messiah, in what context, and when was or is it to be fulfilled?
 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man

 Quoting: Neoanderthal Man


How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
“Your God reigns!”


This verse has no relation to the coming Moshiach ,from my understanding it looks more like a poetic literary verse than a prophetic verse. I will double check my lexicon

Feel free to ask more questions
Anonymous Coward
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12/27/2012 06:50 PM
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Re: Jesus is no Moshiach (Messiah)
A bunch of grown adults arguing over different
fairy tale books. lmao

Religitards are TOTAL TARDS
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30975517


The Moshiach will bring peace to the world

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