Germany accused of 'deporting' its elderly: Rising numbers moved to Asia and Eastern Europe because of sky-high care costs

Hi Bluebird!

This is amazing.

But also predictable.

I lived in Germany for 10 years, worked there as a nurse in several facilities.

They had a nursing shortage at the time, maybe still today.

Let me tell you their "care" is very bare-bones compared to ours, so if you cannot afford even that - wow.

Germans can't take their aging parents in because no one has more than a few square yards to live in - very tight housing density.

When I was there, people who came from the Eastern bloc often had advanced disease states - and terrible teeth - due to the lack of preventive care and other care in the communist nations.

So Germans going over there - wow.
Thank you for posting this.

Just one other point.

The supposed socialistic solidarity of Germany is a joke.

A woman I met from there is getting close to retirement age. I asked here where and when she wanted to retire, since Germany is very beautiful.

"Ich werde arbeiten bis ich tot umfalle!" she laughed.

(I'm gonna work til I fall over dead) This from a country that loves to chide America for a million imagined sins.

There's a massive shortage right now. It's probably the least wanted job by young people...

That's sad, I did enjoy my time at Klinikum Essen and local nursing homes in that area.

But my former father in law warned many times about the problems ahead for Germany if people did not have more children to work to support the pensioners (die Rentner)


Well maybe he was right.


When I came to Germany, I was told I could work as a domestic servant or a nurse. Of course I took the nursing position, which included a diploma after one year and free living in the hospital grounds.

Ach du schande!

That's definitely part of the problem. Our politicians fail to realize that it gets harder and harder for people to simply keep their standard of living. Prices for virtually everything have gone up and every major city falls short on affordable housing. Hence the rents go through the roof and young people can't afford to start a family, let alone have kids. At least not in the stable and secured way they would want.

Essen and the whole Ruhr area have lots of unemployment and people who rely on welfare. Even some people who have jobs don't make enough money anymore to stay off the welfare system.

Germany, like America, is slowly losing its prosperity...

Thank you for your replies.

I hope I did not hurt your feelings. It is amazing to me how correct you are. Both countries are trying to hold on, without total success.

Life is different in America. Being poor is different. You may be able to keep some chickens, other animals too. My relatives in Ohio are not rich, but they have more than enough to eat due to having a huge vegetable garden, a maple sugar tree, many many blueberry bushes. They do not have air-conditioning.

To have that much land in Germany, you would need to be rich to begin with.

I wish you a good rest of Christmas and the best Silvester ever.

Don't send them to USA....new healthcare euthanized anyone over 70 the IRS considers "no viable"

Mexico's nice this time of year!

Typical british.

These elderly are not deported they choose these countries voluntarily because they are cheaper or have nicer weather.

British media lives from reporting anti-german bias since 100 years.

this is legit.

Deportation is a major overstatement imo.

So what? old people are shit.

if you know what germanys care centers for the elderly look like and how expensive they are oppositely to what "care" looks like in there..
you would ship your old ones abroad, too. not because they have better doctors and staff there, but because you get what one can call "care" there for less money, including a respectful and nice atmosphere.

friends of me had to put their granny to a care home and personnel there was really rude, disrespectful and even hit the old people there when they didn´t (because they couldn´t anymore as they are old) what they were told to.
if one goes in a care home, you can watch them go down, as they loose any will to live in there (no surprise). often they are made ill by the care home to get more money from insurance and are easier to "care" for.
no one should put his parents in such a home here in germany, except you really hate them and have a large amount of money left to guarantee them a life in hell.

you lie there in your own piss and shit, tied to your bed and are fed stuff you won´t give your dog to eat.

we are forced to pay care insurance, but it does not meet the money what needed for getting care.
i´ll try to explain if anyone does want to know,
but it is really complicated as everything is counted in minutes you have to need for doing anything on your own, and there comes some "inspector" and watches you doing that daily stuff and counts the minutes to see for what you qualify.

there are 3 steps:

step I 90 Min/day care (you have to need at least 45 Min daily for basic care )
Basic care means you have to need this amount of minutes if you do the following on your own to qualify: e.g. getting out of bed, brushing teeth, eating (not cooking,not eating, just making a meal small enough to eat, e.g. cutting beef ) combing hair and so on (e.g. getting undressed 8-10minutes, brushing teeth = 5minutes))

step II 180 Min/day care (you have to need at least 120 Min for basic care)

step III 300 Min/day care (you have to need at least 240 Min for basic care and need help at night (between 22 and 6 o´clock), too)

the amount the insurance pays maximum per month if one of your relatives does the care:
step I = 235 Euro
step II = 440 Euro
step III = 700 Euro
(but you don´t get extra payment for things you need like gloves, desinfectant or anything to do the care properly!)

the amount the insurance pays maximum per month if you get a care service come to your home (that money goes directly from insurance to the service, you see nothing yourself of it! includes extra money for gloves, desinfectant and stuff):
step I = 450 Euro
step II = 1100 Euro
step III = 1550 Euro

the amount the insurance pays maximum per month if you are in a care home:
step I = 1023 Euro
step II = 1279 Euro
step III = 1550 Euro


so, here is an example what a care home here costs:
step I 66,59 €/day
step II 84,15 €/day
step III 96,69 €/day

e.g. for step I you have to pay 2024 Euros a month in a care home, but you just get 1023 Euro from the insurance.
you have to pay 1001 Euro monthly on your own.

for step III you usually have to pay around 3400 Euros a month in a home, but insurance only pays 1550 Euros, so you have to pay 1850 Euros on your own.


impossible to pay for, as

real pension here is around 750 Euros (most of the elderly women have less due to having had children or being housewives)

83% of the employed here get 1500 Euros after taxes !

so if you have e.g. an old mother with just 750euros pension and earn 1500eur yourself, it is absolutely impossible to pay for a care home, care service, as you can barely pay for your own living (rent, grocerys, power, telephone..) with 1500euros to your name here!

maybe you want to read what i am experiencing with my granny in hospital right now (granny has a care service, step 2 and either my mum or my aunt are with her 24/7 when granny is/was at home, else she would be sitting home alone not being possible to get something to drink or any help with anything except when the service person shows up 3x a day!)
( [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] and i am sure this is not the worst.. had similar/worse experiences last year with my mum in hospital, including her being diagnosed with lung cancer, nearly killed by a fungus in her lungs due to the examination and again nearly killed her by sideeffects of antibiotics given..

Last Edited by Doomina on 12/28/2012 06:06 PM

It surely is! If it's not "cost effective" we won't get the treatment.

All our working lives we were forced to pay into a system for aged care with the understanding it would be the care with which we were familiar and existed at the time.

Surprise, surprise, surprise! It's not gonna be anything even close. Obama is drooling over the EU models for faster disposal of the elderly since the democrats have spent our social security long ago.

Thanks to all of you who posted such informative posts on this situation that is coming to us all sooner rather than later.

Not to politicize this thread, but it appears our government might agree with you.

Please remember that you will be old or helpless one day.

So true!

Unfortunately, their regard for young people is not much better, either.

We live in a culture and world where human life no longer has the value it once did.

I hope your mom is better.

I was not super-impressed with the level of care in German nursing homes around 1980.
I really hoped things had improved.

Lots of therapies can be done to help old patients in all situations. I pray that I will be able to take care of my own mother at home if needed. I also hope my children are learning from this, since I hope to live a very long time!

There is no nirvana on earth. My mother would rather take poison than go to any nursing home, and you know what, she is right.
She is not a sociable person and would hate to give up her privacy.

to beeches User ID: 28167778:

well, she is better, yes, thx for asking :). hospital means " house of the non-healthy" in german (krankenhaus), and not "house where you become healthy" .. ;)

don´t remember what these looked like in the 80s, but since they are nearly all company-owned hospitals who have econimists instead of doctors as bosses there, profit comes first. so there´s improvement (as it brings more money), but on other things (quality, sterilization of things, amount of nurses) it is becoming worse.

my mum is the same as yours, we had to discuss this "option" last year - thankfully switzerland is not that far away, you can buy your "personal exit option" there, if you see no other way out of misery. but "assisted suicide" vs nursing home should not be an option you have to consider at all!

Last Edited by Doomina on 12/29/2012 06:46 AM

Pretty much the same in the UK. Until a couple of years back women retired at 60, now its 66 - same in Ireland and much of Europe, except France. It pisses me off so much! local people who've paid taxes all their lives having to work till they drop to pay for immigrants filling their houses with loads of kids and getting hundreds a week in benefits!

So now when they can't work any longer they're to be shipped off abroad!! Unbelievable. I hope to god there's a big change coming soon.

WTF?? That's it, blame the British for publishing the truth. How can it be lies when it's quoting the German politicians themselves:

"The Sozialverband Deutschland (VdK), a socio-political advisory group, said the fact that many Germans were unable to afford the costs of a retirement home in their own country was a huge ‘alarm signal’. We simply cannot let those people, who built Germany up to be what it is, be deported,’ VdK’s president Ulrike Mascher told The Guardian. ‘It is inhumane.’ "

As long as british scum can quote some nazi words against germany they are done.

Noone is deported, fact, these are just drastic words used by some social group to get quoted in the media.

There is no EU models for faster disposal of the elderly, lets not jump to conclusions by an article in Daily Fail that offers zero data/statistics whatsoever, this is just financial crisis hitting even the core of the EU countries.

I know you guys hate Obama and all and i'm with ya, but if you actually took the time to read a proper research with actual data in it you'd be shocked by how much worse is the situation in the US the last 10-15 years with pensioners that cannot afford a ret. home, homeless pensioners, 40% of Americans that cannot even afford to retire etc. It's worse than every single EU country including Greece and that's no joke here. "Elderly disposal program" as you describe it, took place in the US at least 10 years ago and Obamacare has nothing to do with it.

Last Edited by insertfunnyusername on 12/29/2012 09:02 AM

I'm sorry I'm not familiar with German politics. Is the man quoted and his party, the VdK, a nazi group then? I wasn't aware.

If the elderly person and the family are too poor to pay for the nursing home, the german state pays for it:

Wer zahlt den Heimaufenthalt, wenn das Pflegegeld nicht reicht?

Reicht das von der Pflegeversicherung gezahlte Geld für den Heimaufenthalt nicht aus, werden andere Quellen angezapft. Neben dem Heimbewohner selbst werden auch die Kinder zu Zahlungen verpflichtet - das Sozialamt ist erst die letzte Instanz.

Pflegeversicherung

Grundsätzlich zahlt die Pflegeversicherung einen Aufenthalt im Pflegeheim. Der Pflegesatz der festgelegten Pflegestufe sollte eigentlich ausreichen. Meist fallen jedoch höhere Kosten an. Das interessiert jedoch die Pflegeversicherung nicht. Kostet der Heimplatz mehr als die Pflegekasse zahlt, so ist das das "Problem" des Versicherten, denn er hat den Vertrag mit der Einrichtung geschlossen. Genauso werden Sonderleistungen bewertet, die der Versicherte in Anspruch nimmt. Dazu zählt beispielsweise Fußpflege, diese kann der Versicherte nicht geltend machen, sondern muss sie aus eigener Tasche zahlen.

Eigenleistung des Versicherten

Übersteigen die Ansprüche des Versicherten den festgelegten Pflegesatz, so muss der Versicherte selbst dafür aufkommen. Zusätzliche Kosten müssen dann häufig mit der Rente getilgt werden. Reicht auch die Rente nicht aus, so muss der Versicherte eigene Mittel aufbringen. Ersparnisse werden dann herangezogen. In Sonderfällen werden auch Vermögenswerte verkauft, um daraus die Pflegekosten zu bezahlen.

Leistungen der Angehörigen

Kinder sind gegenüber ihren Eltern unterhaltspflichtig. Unterhaltspflicht besteht aber nur dann, wenn derjenige, der Unterhalt erhalten möchte, bedürftig ist und derjenige, der Unterhalt zahlen soll, ausreichend leistungsfähig ist. Die Bedürftigkeit des Heimbewohners ist dann vorhanden, wenn die Mittel aus der Pflegeversicherung, der Rente und dem eigenen Vermögen nicht die Kosten decken. Ob die Kinder leistungsfähig sind, richtet sich danach, ob ihr Einkommen ausreicht, den eigenen Unterhalt und zusätzlich den für eine weitere Person aufzubringen. Der Pflegebedürftige selbst muss dies überprüfen, das ist nicht Aufgabe der Pflegeeinrichtung.

Leistung des Sozialamtes

Sind alle Möglichkeiten, inklusive der Unterhaltsansprüche an die Kinder ausgeschöpft und die Mittel reichen dennoch nicht, um den Heimaufenthalt zu bezahlen, dann muss das Sozialamt unterstützen. Bevor eine Sozialhilfe fällig wird, prüft das Sozialamt sehr sorgfältig, ob tatsächlich keine anderen Vermögenswerte vorhanden sind.

Versteckte Einkommensquellen

Auch versteckte Einkommensquellen werden überprüft. Häufig besitzen ältere Menschen ein lebenslanges Wohnrecht. Das Sozialamt prüft, ob es möglich ist, dass die Räume, die zuletzt vom Heimbewohner genutzt worden sind, vermietet werden können. Ist das möglich, so ist das lebenslange Wohnrecht als Einkommen zu betrachten. Zinserträge aus angelegtem Geld stellen ebenfalls ein anrechenbares Einkommen dar.

Lediglich Schonvermögen erlaubt

Bei einem Antrag auf Sozialhilfe, sollten Heimbewohner beachten, dass das Sozialamt auch das Vermögen selbst angreifen darf. Das heißt Sparguthaben, Bargeld, langfristige Kapitalanlagen, Wertpapiere und Lebensversicherungen werden für die Pflegekosten verwendet. Nur ein so genanntes Schonvermögen darf der Heimbewohner behalten.

Erstattungsleistungen der Kinder an das Sozialamt

Das Sozialamt prüft auch, ob Unterhaltsansprüche an die Kinder vollständig geltend gemacht wurden. Ein Verzicht des Heimbewohners auf den Unterhalt der Kinder wird nicht berücksichtigt, da die Kinder unterhaltsverpflichtet sind. Die Unterhaltsansprüche gehen so weit, dass nicht nur das Einkommen, sondern auch das Vermögen der Kinder angegriffen werden darf. Ein Schonvermögen ist auch den Kindern zugesichert, wobei langfristige Kapitalanlagen, deren Stammvermögen der Altersvorsorge dient, hier nicht veräußert werden dürfen.

Alle eigenen Mittel müssen also verbraucht sein, ehe es staatliche Unterstützung gibt. Sozialhilfe sollte möglichst früh beantragt werden. Ist eine Heimunterkunft notwendig und sicher, dass das Geld der Pflegeversicherung plus des Eigenvermögens nicht ausreicht, den Heimaufenthalt zu finanzieren, sollte der Bedürftige den Antrag stellen. Anträge an das Sozialamt sind gebührenfrei, aber im Normalfall wird rückwirkend keine Sozialhilfe gewährt.

Schenkungen des Pflegebedürftigen müssen 10 Jahr zurückliegen, ansonsten muss der Beschenkte das Geld wieder zurückfliesen lassen. Ich persönlich habe noch nicht erlebt, das die Kinder zum Unterhalt herangezogen worden.

Es gibt sehr hohe Freibeträge, da müsste der Sohn schon 100000€ im Jahr verdienen um zum Unterhalt herangezogen zu werden. Und wenn jemand 100000€ im Jahr verdient, dann ist er auch leistungsfähig. Dem Ehepartner stehen auch hohe Freibeträge zu. Seine eigene Altersvorsorge muss er nicht angreifen, angemessenes Wohneigentum fällt ebenfalls nicht darunter. Beim Sparvermögen gibt es auch Freibeträge.

Das Vermögen des Pflegebedürftigen muss bis auf 2.301,00 EUR aufgebraucht sein. Bei Verheirateten sind es 2.915,00 EUR des gemeinsamen Vermögens. Größere Vermögenswerte, die nachweisbar - aufgrund von Kontoauszügen oder Schenkungsurkunden - innerhalb der letzten 10 Jahre verschenkt wurden, müssen von den Beschenkten zurückerstattet werden und vom Pflegebedürftigen zunächst verbraucht werden, bis Sozialhilfeleistungen möglich sind. Diese Regelung soll vor allem den Missbrauch von Sozialhilfeleistungen verhindern. Schenkungen werden unter bestimmten Voraussetzungen nicht zurückgefordert (z.B. so genannte Pflicht- und Anstandsschenkungen, wie ein angemessener Geldbetrag zu besonderen Anlässen).

[link to www.pflegeboard.de]

I'm talking about the word "deported". Brits love to use nazi buzz words. It sells their newspapers to their dumbed down population.

VdK menitoned in the article is obviously some kind of NGO and not a party or politicians. They offer zero statistics for the article beyond that 10 thousand Germans are in a ret. home outside Germany, article is kinda BS, i've met some German and UK pensioners here in Greece and they have a great time, it's just cheaper to retire here or in Spain than in Germany and the land and weather are obviously far better and more beautiful.