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If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1190661
Australia
01/06/2013 09:35 PM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


Turn to islam now? Wow theres no mention of the virgin birth, His crucifixion, resurrection or anything. you are pathetically desperate
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781997


NO I wasn't suggesting turning to Islam now... The guy was a Christian discussing what a Christian book says...

It doesn't make the book correct.

It was what some Christians taught and it has insights from Jesus brother and early Christians.

You have become a waste of my time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661

sorry you feel that way but I will stand up for what is right.
You posting this video are ready to throw out the virgin birth, resurrection, the crucifixion all so you can prove Jesus wasn't God. Now thats a real waste of time
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781997


Now you are making things up... you false accuser...1rof1

I'm not ready to throw anything out. Stop telling lies!

You might have to do your own study because all through this discussion you have ignored Jesus' precise teachings to insert your own dogma.

The reason I didn't answer the Thomas line is because quite simply it is absolutely contradicted in earlier pieces that I have posted.

Why didn't Jesus ever say "I am GOD"?

To prove it all again & again, over and over is a complete is a waste of my time.

I will follow Jesus' instructions when confronted with people like you, however I do not wish you any of the ill will that the verses following this one would suggest. suggest.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

I'll just agree to disagree!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 24056251
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01/06/2013 10:04 PM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
...

LoL Look at your comprehension skills LoL He says "MY Doctrine" which is obvious He is saying it's not only His or else that sentence wouldn't make any sense LoL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781997


WOW! Trying to explain the obvious to you is like pulling teeth.

Either you are wrong or Jesus is lying.



Enough of this sillyness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661

Like I said before be careful you are still in yours sins unless you believe

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781997


Did you intentionally leave out what comes next? I see who you are now!

John 8:25-29

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me , I speak these things.


Who taught Jesus (the son)? GOD (the father). Under your belief Jesus has to be lying here. Jesus has to have taught himself. Why do you choose to make Jesus a liar?

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Under your beliefs Jesus always does things that please Jesus - He states it here. Once again you undermine Jesus' reverence for his father GOD.

You probably haven't comprehended it yet, but you should realise that I am not actually addressing you, with my quotes of scripture, as you have lost the ability to assess.

My quotations have been for others who will read them with an open heart & mind.

Thankyou for enabling me to speak to them through your ignorance.

Proof that "the word" has been corrupted by indoctrinated man made dogma.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661


clappa
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 28781997
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01/06/2013 10:11 PM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
...


Turn to islam now? Wow theres no mention of the virgin birth, His crucifixion, resurrection or anything. you are pathetically desperate
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781997


NO I wasn't suggesting turning to Islam now... The guy was a Christian discussing what a Christian book says...

It doesn't make the book correct.

It was what some Christians taught and it has insights from Jesus brother and early Christians.

You have become a waste of my time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661

sorry you feel that way but I will stand up for what is right.
You posting this video are ready to throw out the virgin birth, resurrection, the crucifixion all so you can prove Jesus wasn't God. Now thats a real waste of time
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 28781997


Now you are making things up... you false accuser...1rof1

I'm not ready to throw anything out. Stop telling lies!

You might have to do your own study because all through this discussion you have ignored Jesus' precise teachings to insert your own dogma.

The reason I didn't answer the Thomas line is because quite simply it is absolutely contradicted in earlier pieces that I have posted.

Why didn't Jesus ever say "I am GOD"?

To prove it all again & again, over and over is a complete is a waste of my time.

I will follow Jesus' instructions when confronted with people like you, however I do not wish you any of the ill will that the verses following this one would suggest. suggest.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

I'll just agree to disagree!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661

You post a video about a book from a pro Islam youtube account. A book that claims to be older than the Bible. I can only assume you are promoting this book or why else would you promote it? Are you not using this book to promote your view? If thats what you did would you like to recant your position and denounce your view of the book now? that would be OK, so what, you made a mistake.

Jesus never denied being God in the Bible, never denied it to Thomas either. So was Thomas deceived and had the pagan trinity deception conspiracy already begun and Thomas had fell victim to it and was deceived yet Jesus failed to correct him because he was tired? You expect true believers to swallow that?
GrowParadise
User ID: 29282399
France
01/07/2013 01:29 AM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
mental masturbation...get on with paradise creation and finish up the theorizing...its not helping any of us will REAL life here. I love it how followers of the gospel spend so much time studying this or that but miss the big point of bringing the garden of eden back to earth again. Thats the real goal. The big secret is that God is each and every one of us - some realize and create heaven on earth as best they can, while most fuss around with nonsense of every type.
Armesis

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01/08/2013 11:03 AM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
Jesus criticized religious leaders of his time for misleading people. He said to them.." you roam around the world to convert people to your religion; after converting him, you double his chance to enter hell". Jesus was not supporting any religion, because God is not limited to any religion.

Lets just say all leave your religions and forget your petty arguments, you all argue over Jesus, when he himself didn't exactly like religion and said you have a higher chance of going to hell when you are part of a religion.

I mean if you look at the small amount of people that will get into heaven(if it exists)and how low it is you will notice is makes no sense compared to all the religious people there are, you should all listen to Jesus and stop being part of organized religion and trust in your teacher( i don't believe he exists and i'm not religious) just pointing out the obvious.
Armesis The Extraterrestrial
Anonymous Coward
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01/08/2013 11:21 AM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
Revelation 1:1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

Revelation 3:14 The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God,

Revelation 1:4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spiritsa before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Rev 12:17 ... keep the commandments of God, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 20:6 they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and My new name.

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Revelation 11:15 The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,

Revelation 11:17 We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!

Revelation 19:6 For our Lord God Almighty reigns. ... For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Anonymous Coward
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01/08/2013 07:39 PM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
There can only be one Alpha(beginning) and Omega(end), you can't have two.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Anonymous Coward
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01/08/2013 11:56 PM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
I had a few extra minutes so I decided to address some objections which people notoriously bring up in there defense of the Jesus is GOD subject.

I base my answers on Jesus' alleged actual words. I think I can trust Jesus.

The "i am" evidence, (which always gets presented), has several flaws, that most people have never even considered, because they don't study correctly, and don't read with an analytical mind.

GOD gave you that mind so you probably should use it! Shouldn't you?

1. All those people and those Bible versions who have "I AM" or "I Am" as evidence are telling fibs. Jesus probably spoke Aramaic and everyone knows, (well I hope they do), that Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew didn't have capital letters.

So to type it with capitals is to give it far more emphasis than may have been meant. Should our translations be at least somewhat accurate without changing emphases?

2. Moses was the one who alleged that GOD said "i am who i am" or "i am that i am". Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Instead of saying "The GOD of Israel sent me" he was meant to say "i am" sent me?

BUT Moses has more problems than that - Credibility being one of them. Moses using the term "GOD said" to justify everything, was a war criminal. He taught stoning,ethnic cleansing, slavery, infanticide and abortion.

Oh you didn't know about abortion?

Numbers 5:16-22 (NIV) “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord."

Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.

But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”


Do you really think that the most intelligent being ever allowed Moses and his priests to add dust to water as a test for fidelity? Note : But only fidelity for the woman. Surely this is absurd, isn't it?

But Jesus contradicts many of Moses' accounts with one line

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Is Moses or Jesus lying... Whose version do you trust more?

Why would Jesus say such a thing if he was GOD and had spoken directly to Moses? The Bible & Moses said he did!

See some massive problems here with Moses' credibility? See a problem here with GOD and abortion?

3. Jesus very occasionally used the term "i am" but in one particular instance he gave more detail.

Matthew 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

People read this line, grab it and pretend it aligns with the OT "i am who i am" line from Moses the terrible, BUT, miss the key word… Abraham!

If Jesus had said “before adam I am” then that would have put him before man.

BUT Abraham? Abraham is nowhere near the first in this alleged genealogy.

Something is definitely wrong, and believers just read over it as if it was nothing.

Jesus is saying he goes back to before Abraham… This is a crazy choice, as GOD, he has to go back to before Adam at least another 19 generations!

So how do believers miss this important stuff? How do they believe in the atrocities of Moses as "from GOD"? - Does your GOD allow people to be like Moses, and to commit the crimes of Moses?

And how do they accept "i am" as meaning so much when it is very peculiarly used in both cases?

I'll let you ponder those dilemmas for a little while.

Lastly, people quote all manner of passages, (usually said by men, or reported by men, like Paul, or, from John in Revelations, again purporting to be from GOD), that claim Jesus is GOD.

Can we trust men's views on making this decision or should the only version that merits consideration be that of Jesus the "Son of GOD" as declared. He was on Earth afterall, and surely it is following his precise teachings that make you Christian.

Why didn't the most intelligent being ever simply say "I am GOD", if Jesus was truly GOD. GOD said this -

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

I hope this has helped in sorting the wheat from the charf.

Good luck with your studies.

peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661

Jesus not before man? Moses the terrible? Its like you never read the Bible at all.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Mat_8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat_17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat_19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat_19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat_22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat_23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mar_1:44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mar_7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar_9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar_9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mar_10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar_10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar_12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mar_12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Luk_2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk_5:14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Luk_9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk_9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Luk_16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk_16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luk_20:28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Luk_20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk_24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh_1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Joh_3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh_5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Joh_7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Joh_8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh_9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
Anonymous Coward
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01/09/2013 03:10 AM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
"Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus."

[link to carm.org]

Passages where Jesus speaks about his relationship to the Father are:

“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me ( John 14:11)

I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. (John 17:21)

Mark (14:60-64).

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death. (63-64).
Anonymous Coward
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01/09/2013 04:27 AM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
"Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus."

[link to carm.org]

Passages where Jesus speaks about his relationship to the Father are:

“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me ( John 14:11)

I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. (John 17:21)

Mark (14:60-64).

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death. (63-64).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1034800


Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to my lord sit at my right hand, until I make your adversaries your footstool.


1Cor15:20 when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he[CHRIST] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son[CHRIST] also himself **be subject** unto him[THE FATHER] that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
IAMIAM

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01/09/2013 04:39 AM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
Jesus criticized religious leaders of his time for misleading people. He said to them.." you roam around the world to convert people to your religion; after converting him, you double his chance to enter hell". Jesus was not supporting any religion, because God is not limited to any religion.

Lets just say all leave your religions and forget your petty arguments, you all argue over Jesus, when he himself didn't exactly like religion and said you have a higher chance of going to hell when you are part of a religion.

I mean if you look at the small amount of people that will get into heaven(if it exists)and how low it is you will notice is makes no sense compared to all the religious people there are, you should all listen to Jesus and stop being part of organized religion and trust in your teacher( i don't believe he exists and i'm not religious) just pointing out the obvious.
 Quoting: Armesis


You don't believe the teacher exists,

But BEHOLD how greatly YOU have been taught!
Thread: Chains

Have you the strength to break them?
Anonymous Coward
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01/13/2013 11:23 PM
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Re: If Jesus Is God or Co-Equal to God Then Why...
I had a few extra minutes so I decided to address some objections which people notoriously bring up in there defense of the Jesus is GOD subject.

I base my answers on Jesus' alleged actual words. I think I can trust Jesus.

The "i am" evidence, (which always gets presented), has several flaws, that most people have never even considered, because they don't study correctly, and don't read with an analytical mind.

GOD gave you that mind so you probably should use it! Shouldn't you?

1. All those people and those Bible versions who have "I AM" or "I Am" as evidence are telling fibs. Jesus probably spoke Aramaic and everyone knows, (well I hope they do), that Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew didn't have capital letters.

So to type it with capitals is to give it far more emphasis than may have been meant. Should our translations be at least somewhat accurate without changing emphases?

2. Moses was the one who alleged that GOD said "i am who i am" or "i am that i am". Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Instead of saying "The GOD of Israel sent me" he was meant to say "i am" sent me?

BUT Moses has more problems than that - Credibility being one of them. Moses using the term "GOD said" to justify everything, was a war criminal. He taught stoning,ethnic cleansing, slavery, infanticide and abortion.

Oh you didn't know about abortion?

Numbers 5:16-22 (NIV) “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord."

Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.

But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”


Do you really think that the most intelligent being ever allowed Moses and his priests to add dust to water as a test for fidelity? Note : But only fidelity for the woman. Surely this is absurd, isn't it?

But Jesus contradicts many of Moses' accounts with one line

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Is Moses or Jesus lying... Whose version do you trust more?

Why would Jesus say such a thing if he was GOD and had spoken directly to Moses? The Bible & Moses said he did!

See some massive problems here with Moses' credibility? See a problem here with GOD and abortion?

3. Jesus very occasionally used the term "i am" but in one particular instance he gave more detail.

Matthew 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

People read this line, grab it and pretend it aligns with the OT "i am who i am" line from Moses the terrible, BUT, miss the key word… Abraham!

If Jesus had said “before adam I am” then that would have put him before man.

BUT Abraham? Abraham is nowhere near the first in this alleged genealogy.

Something is definitely wrong, and believers just read over it as if it was nothing.

Jesus is saying he goes back to before Abraham… This is a crazy choice, as GOD, he has to go back to before Adam at least another 19 generations!

So how do believers miss this important stuff? How do they believe in the atrocities of Moses as "from GOD"? - Does your GOD allow people to be like Moses, and to commit the crimes of Moses?

And how do they accept "i am" as meaning so much when it is very peculiarly used in both cases?

I'll let you ponder those dilemmas for a little while.

Lastly, people quote all manner of passages, (usually said by men, or reported by men, like Paul, or, from John in Revelations, again purporting to be from GOD), that claim Jesus is GOD.

Can we trust men's views on making this decision or should the only version that merits consideration be that of Jesus the "Son of GOD" as declared. He was on Earth afterall, and surely it is following his precise teachings that make you Christian.

Why didn't the most intelligent being ever simply say "I am GOD", if Jesus was truly GOD. GOD said this -

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

I hope this has helped in sorting the wheat from the charf.

Good luck with your studies.

peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1190661

Jesus not before man? Moses the terrible? Its like you never read the Bible at all.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Mat_8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat_17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat_19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat_19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat_22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat_23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mar_1:44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mar_7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar_9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar_9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mar_10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar_10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar_12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mar_12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Luk_2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk_5:14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Luk_9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk_9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Luk_16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk_16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luk_20:28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Luk_20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk_24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh_1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Joh_3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh_5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Joh_7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Joh_8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh_9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31669164


Oh I read the Bible very closely and studied it! What makes me different, to most, is I noted all the unGODly things in it... told to us by men.

For example if any of the gospels have been added to by men then they could have added anything anywhere.

You will notice that John 5:4, Acts 8:37, and 1 John 5:7. Mark 16:9-20 are missing from some Bibles.

This is because Bible scholars think they were added later, by scribes for any number of reasons.

If you didn't know this then ... SURPRISE!

What other verses have been added or tampered with?

If GOD inspired the tampering then his omniscience is put into question as he didn't get it right from the beginning.

When Jesus' changed Moses' laws, given to Moses allegedly from GOD, then what does that say?

If Jesus and GOD are the same... Did they get it wrong the first time?

Did GOD really tell Moses to put dust in women's holy water? Is GOD really that dumb?

You are allowed to think you know!

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