Quoting: Gregor Samsa
Wow, mate first of all i sincerely thank you for the long reply and the effort, i really appreciate it. Secondly i agree with many things you state, but not with everything, especially in details, and details mean sometimes a lot.
One thing i noticed is you claim that the Turkish state is full of propaganda and almost everyone in Turkey buy this (which i agree btw.) whereas Greek state tells the truth to their citizens and theyíre free of propaganda. You say ďNo one in Greece still defends the actions of EOKA and the CIA junta, both Greeks and G/C have admitted and understood their past mistakesĒ Really, i mean really ? Most people here does not have the perception that no one in Greece support EOKA ideology anymore and maybe feel the opposite. You see, propaganda works in both ways.
Bro, i know you are not an unaware person of the corruptions globally and lies, propaganda spread by TPTB through all politicians and governments, but i sense a little subjectivity and black&white thinking here. Please note that i dont emphasize this to justify the actions and lies of the Turkish state.
Another thing is you give the arguments of the internationally recognitions, non-recognitions as an indicator rightfulness, which i donít disagree completely, but again this is totally ignoring the corruption, deceptiveness and hypocrisy of the internationally politics and relationships. You must know all these issues are used as trump cards in internationally corrupted politics, do you really think that any politicians or people in high places care about the Armenian, Turkish, Greek etc. victims of the past or present ? So donít be surprised if US sells (to Turkey) the recognition of Northern Cyprus in exchange for being an ally and giving military support in a possible war with Iran in a few years (i am just giving as an example not claiming that this will happen).
I mean you and me, and perhaps many other people on GLP know but i donít think everyone knows the importance of the island for the international politics. Itís a bigger issue than some controversy between Greek and Turkey and the rights of the 1.2 million living there. Itís a very strategic base located in one of the geopolitically most important regions of Mediterranean and ME. Itís called a giant aircraft carrirer. So itís not surprising that all the big players have interests on the situation, openly or behind the curtains.
But since you put forward the opinion and support of the international committee and politics as an argument and an indicator of rightfulness, so what about the Kofi Annan Plan. Itís UNís plan man (and EU supported it too), for a united Cyprus and the Turkish military would leave the island for good. After years of negotiation and revisions, the result of the referendum is Greek Cypriots rejected the plan by 76%, while 65% of the Turkish Cypriots accepted it. Yeah i know itís a referendum, democratic choice of people, bu t i donít think the claim that G/C Ďs want peace while T/Cís does not is fully objective. Btw, i also think that if Cyprus wasnít a part of EU at that time the acceptance percentage of G/Cís would be higher.
Sorry for huge post, just wanted to share with you my pow, i don't expect you to agree with it btw i'd gladly hear your side of the story too. I really wouldn't want to continue about who is more right or wrong on this since far greater minds than us have tried to solve this and couldn't. I just want imperialism, colonialism and illegal occupation to end, and people to go back to their homes, that's all. Quoting: insertfunnyusername
I know mate, same here. If it was up to you and me (or people like us) we could solve the problem in one day. Take care.
Ps : I have just one thing to say to the coward who gave me a red karma insulting the Turks, naming them dogs, instead of participating in the discussion here. Not that i care about the red karma or any opinion of a racist douchebag, but as you may have also noticed, we, a Greek and a Turk (my friend insertfunnyusername and i ) are sharing our opinions , in a civilized and friendly manner, here. Being a racist sociopath, I donít expect you to understand this friendly manner at all, but i would rather be a dog than a pussy like you.
Thank you for the reply too GS!
It's a great thing that we can post and chat about these things and i honestly do appreciate the posts. :)
I didn't claim that Greek state is propaganda-free, i can guarantee you that it's not, i just stated that freedom of press and respect for human rights isn't comparable between the 2 countries and i'm not saying this too diminish you guys or anything, i stand with the average oppressed citizen of any country regardless of race and religion, i believe that when Turkey finds peace and freedom the whole region will find peace too, but this can't happen with the guys you have in charge, at no point i claim we're propaganda free, we've deported and culturally assimilated people too during the rise of nationalism in the Balkans, although not anywhere near the numbers that Turkey did and this assimilation process didn't reach the holocaust proportions of aggressiveness that reached there, at some point you'll have to face your past collectively as a society, i believe it 's already starting to haunt you as more and more people realize that they have been massively deceived and discovering their true roots. After the end of ww2-civil war we don't have massacres still happening throughout the country, especially state-sponsored ones, while the deep state in Turkey still persecutes people for raising a different opinion and displacing people and minorities, this state-sponsored terrorism is still on high levels despite the "democratization" process claimed.
Freedom of press gave the chance to the people here to see the different view too and question many things of the past and this can only positively affect a society, you can't do this thing without fear there and it's not only about the press, arts/intellectuals follow, for example just this past year Erdogan ban.ned about 400-500 internationally known books claiming that they insult Islam and he bitch about EU membership at the same time, wtf, EU is not only about power of an economy, (which i admit that the Turkish economic model the last 10 years is working great for him and the country and it's admirable by many), but for freedom of expression and respect for basic human rights. You guys bitch about Western Thrace Turks but these guys do things here that if a Greek dared to do in Turkey would have been butchered on the spot, they do all kinds of provocative shit with "Independent Muslim Thrace" flags and other bs every fucking day, the consul that was attacked 2 days ago stated this week about a law related with minority issues "As long as i'm a consul in this country, there's no way this law will pass", and this is a law of the Greek state btw, it's a direct interference to national issues and politics by a friggin diplomat, you see the difference here? Everyone can go public and state whatever BS he has on his mind. At no point i'm claiming that we are model of democracy country, we're not at all, we're fucking average, we've big social, nepotism and corruption problems, we're in our biggest national crisis since Cyprus, we honestly are in deep shit of unimaginable proportions.
No one is still defending the junta here, it has been proven that it was an imperialistic cia project, same tactics with the Latin America coups of that time, they weren't here to promote the interests of Greece and the Greek people. As for EOKA support, people still support what they were standing for against the British colonial rule that they were fighting, no one defends what they did to innocent T/C's. I believe that if Turkish people learn the truth too about these tragic events and how involved was their state and how hardcore it did support the dichotomy of the island, the Cypriot issue could maybe be resolved. The Cypriot issue was and probably still is a very traumatic experience for the collective Greek psyche that changed many views on many subjects here, many G/C's were holding a grudge to mainland Greeks for the things that happened and took us many years to overcome this and see/analyze the events from a different perspective, but we moved on, we truly left the island free and gave them our support to do their own thing, doesn't mean that we're not still brothers and that we won't cooperate or support them if shtf, but for example Greece is in a big financial mess and still doesn't ask Cyprus for a plot or for some oil and gas to help our situation, why Turkey should threaten war and demand resources for mainland Turkey? I cannot understand this, it's imperialistic fascism in my book. More and more T/C's are saying that Turkey is colonizing them and using them for her own geopolitical agenda, which is true and they don't like this either, dunno if you get this kind of press there about T/C's views, but we do, T/C's starting to realize what this was all about too.
I agree with the deceptiveness and hypocrisy of the internationally politics, that's was the intent of my big post, that we both have been played on this and also that big parts of the truth regarding Cyprus are still hidden from the average Turk. For your example, even if US gives pseudo-state recognition in exchange for something doesn't mean that the whole intl community will do it too, wrong is wrong and right is right imo, intl law should be respected, it's true that it can be easily manipulated for TPTB plans, but it's not like always this, even Kosovo has been recognized by half the planet despite enormous pressure for recognition, USA didn't support the Palestine bid but there was nothing they could do about it just a while back. The pseudo-state is not anywhere close to these 2 examples and it won't ever be, can't be justified in any way.
Annan plan, it was a referendum, people decided that it was not good for them, Greece kept a neutral stance while Turkey not btw, so if G/C's think that it's not in their interests for such a thing to happen i'll stand by their decision, they certainly know better than us mainland Greeks. But for the sake of the argument i'll tell you what they thought about it. The plan was considered to be too good for the Turkish side, it gave the pseudo-state recognition of a federal state and thus legitimizing the brutal invasion and occupation. G/C's know what's Turkey agenda on this, you could very easily leave the federation and declare an independent state under intl law the next day, the same way that Turkey didn't agree with 3 peace plans after the invasion and went full retard and declared pseudo-state independence in 1983. Anan plan was 1960 all over again with both Greece and Turkey still involved with some troops in reduced numbers though and the Brits would be able to stay in the island too after so much shit they stirred there, Brits are the first that need to pack and get the fuck out. A very very important aspect is that it had limited right to return between the territories, which can't be accepted, there are 200 thousand G/C's refugees and thousand of missing persons man, their lost properties have been valued to 80-90 billion euros, you can't legalize this, what kind of solution is that if people can't go back to their homes and recover their properties? Many UN officials have their doubts about the plan too and considered it a disservice to intl law and human rights, a Turk wouldn't be able to come with a better plan, it was that favorable to your positions on the matter. The same thing i told ya before, the minority can't steal land and decide for the majority too, for 18% of the population you occupy 36% of the island and the best part of it too. Annan plan was legitimizing the invasion and the occupation and giving T/C's recognition as a state in the north and sovereign rights in the south. I believe they made the right choice, you don't negotiate and legalize the fascist Turkish state, they always come back to ask for more, you guys there as citizens maybe don't realize this but your policy after ww2 is way too aggressive for anyone to handle. Bottom line is that Cyprus and Hellenism as a whole will pay for this decision, since the rejection of the plan things and economy has gone downhill in both countries.