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If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?

 
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

User ID: 1110734
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01/10/2013 12:08 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
"State governors generally may restrict travel within their states and access to their
states.
Individual state law should be consulted to determine permissible exercise of
this authority."
[link to www.flu.gov]

Lest you think I make this crap up. It's from actual government documents about their plans during a Pandemic.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/10/2013 12:09 AM
Anonymous Coward
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01/10/2013 12:10 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
It's already here. Almost all the cold & flu medicine in the drug stores is gone.
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/10/2013 12:13 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Here's the kind of things that goverment officials think might happen during a pandemic. This is a scenario sheet of bullet points. Some of it will open your eyes.
[link to www.tiems.info]

"The telecommunications sector continues to be under intense pressure as worldwide, people attempt to
telecommute. In many countries the government exercised its authority and commandeered the bulk of
telecommunication services in attempts to maintain order and keep government operations functioning.
Telephone exchanges in many parts of the world have degraded to sporadic service as demand far exceeds
capacity.

The utility sector also continues to be under intense pressure. Brownouts in most areas of the world are
normal, in part due aging infrastructure, lack of and/or disruption of fuel supplies, distribution issues and
demand shifts continue to create reliability issues. Blackouts of extended duration are beginning to affect
many countries. In many areas fuel supplies are being rationed due to curtailment of deliveries. System
maintenance becomes more difficult due to a lack of experienced workers and illegal tapping of supply lines
(electrical, gas, water, etc.) have become rampant. In many instances government has had to intercede to
assist the utilities maintain operation, through guarantees of payment as displaced workers are unable to
pay utility bills. A spike in residential demand as more and more workers are forced to stay at home due to
quarantine, facility closures, lack of work and fear of exposure to illness continues"
SilverPatriot

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01/10/2013 12:15 AM

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
my guy had the shot is now VERY sick I didn't and im not healthy and do not got flu.

explain...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26293126


do some internet research as to what is in the shot and the side effects of these shots.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1550123


Correct.

Mass produced inoculations such as the flu shot rely upon tumor cells, which reproduce quickly, and their detrimental effect upon human life is unknown. This combined with the preservative mercury in these shots make them n option to be feared.

Investigating Viruses in Cells Used to Make Vaccines; and Evaluating the Potential Threat Posed by Transmission of Viruses to Humans

Virus-based vaccines are made in living cells (cell substrates). Some manufacturers are investigating the use of new cell lines to make vaccines. The continual growth of cell lines ensures that there is a consistent supply of the same cells that can yield high quantities of the vaccine.

In some cases the cell lines that are used might be tumorigenic, that is, they form tumors when injected into rodents. Some of these tumor-forming cell lines may contain cancer-causing viruses that are not actively reproducing. Such viruses are hard to detect using standard methods. These latent, or "quiet," viruses pose a potential threat, since they might become active under vaccine manufacturing conditions. Therefore, to ensure the safety of vaccines, our laboratory is investigating ways to activate latent viruses in cell lines and to detect the activated viruses, as well as other unknown viruses, using new technologies. We will then adapt our findings to detect viruses in the same types of cell substrates that are used to produce vaccines. We are also trying to identify specific biological processes that reflect virus activity.

[link to www.fda.gov]
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/10/2013 12:23 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Discussion of mass graves as a means of disposal of bodies during a pandemic.
[link to www.medicalnewstoday.com]
Trbl Ivan

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01/10/2013 12:52 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Try to post here about mutant malaria in Thailand....they cant fight it with known meds....then see how long your post lives......
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/10/2013 01:37 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
If a pandemic was here, then one place that's vulnerable is a college or university. The close proximity, the lack of good hygiene, the poor diet, the carefree attitude, the many social gatherings, the diverse student population meeting regularly, the distance from the school to home, the lack of security, all of these things make them very suceptible to a pandemic.

Because they're very young and using social media, you'd definitely expect a lot of tweets, pics posted, leaks back home, the spread of disease along interstates as people tried to get home, the difficulty in feeding them during a crisis, it would be very bad to be in a university during one.

In rural towns and urban centers, there's people who have skills that would help those folks cope versus the university population. Not so in an educational setting for the most part. Some of the engineering professors could really help. Chemists too. If they had a graduate medical program, then those people would know things and could tend the sick. The others? I doubt it. Russian lit doesn't exactly help you.

A lot of universities work with the city police, and might even have a branch on campus, but there's minimal weapons there for protection and a high percentage of young beautiful women. Scary, very scary. I hope it doesn't happen.

People could easily be trapped in large cities where they're located, and then not be able to get home. Then they also wouldn't be able to raise food on-site. They wouldn't have the tools or the materials. It's bad all around.

They do have strength, but a lot have no skills whatsoever, bad attitudes, have no practical experience, don't know anything that might help them unless from farms.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/10/2013 01:40 AM
Useless Cookie Eater

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01/10/2013 01:42 AM

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Limiting bandwith during a Pandemic:
[link to www.techrepublic.com]

Direct GAO link discussing the need:
[link to www.gao.gov]

I don't think we can include Reuters links but they had one titled SEC and Homeland Security need Web backup, GAO says on Oct 26, 2009 which details this issue. You can look it up yourself. It discusses blocking websites during a pandemic to assist bandwidth for government use or for critical infrastucture. As such many sites like this one, you'd have difficulty getting to it.

The Cybersecurity Act of 2009 would leave it up to the discretion of the President to decide on shutting down the Internet during a crisis which is entirely up to his discretion. Do you need more links? There's definitely more.

GAO-10-8 listed above discusses using the Internet during a Pandemic as a means of education in case schools are closed. That information is within the link above.

Question for Useless Cookie Eater, am I still illogical and nonsensical now that I've demonstrated that the US government has specifically considered doing precisely what I stated?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Yes.

1) Because LOTS of things are CONSIDERED that will never happen.

2) Again, even if the government were to go rogue and ignore the rule of law, people will find other ways to communicate as I noted earlier.

3) If they do shut down the internet, that would only be a symptom of a larger problem going on....and it is highly probable that all hell has already broken loose.....and it won't be over a pandemic.
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

User ID: 1110734
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01/10/2013 01:52 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Limiting bandwith during a Pandemic:
[link to www.techrepublic.com]

Direct GAO link discussing the need:
[link to www.gao.gov]

I don't think we can include Reuters links but they had one titled SEC and Homeland Security need Web backup, GAO says on Oct 26, 2009 which details this issue. You can look it up yourself. It discusses blocking websites during a pandemic to assist bandwidth for government use or for critical infrastucture. As such many sites like this one, you'd have difficulty getting to it.

The Cybersecurity Act of 2009 would leave it up to the discretion of the President to decide on shutting down the Internet during a crisis which is entirely up to his discretion. Do you need more links? There's definitely more.

GAO-10-8 listed above discusses using the Internet during a Pandemic as a means of education in case schools are closed. That information is within the link above.

Question for Useless Cookie Eater, am I still illogical and nonsensical now that I've demonstrated that the US government has specifically considered doing precisely what I stated?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Yes.

1) Because LOTS of things are CONSIDERED that will never happen.

2) Again, even if the government were to go rogue and ignore the rule of law, people will find other ways to communicate as I noted earlier.

3) If they do shut down the internet, that would only be a symptom of a larger problem going on....and it is highly probable that all hell has already broken loose.....and it won't be over a pandemic.
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


1.So they spent millions preparing for something that won't happen? Maybe. Polticians piss money like crazy. Maybe they're listening to experts who don't know what they're talking about. Maybe all the historians are in cahoots with them. Medical staff and educators too.

2. Yep, we could run telegraph wires. If we have power. Military field phones have self-crank generators. There's that. Not too many around. We could wire up some from army surplus. Wrote about that in the last month. Not any Internet browsing over that though.

3. So are you not going to even admit that I was right about their plans about IP blocking, bandwidth reduction, lack of domain refferal in the face of the GAO report?

Are you that kind of person that won't admit to be wrong when someone provides you with evidence, when you discounted their statements as to their veracity. Seem weak and the actions of a real lightweight.
Useless Cookie Eater

User ID: 29696048
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01/10/2013 02:01 AM

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Limiting bandwith during a Pandemic:
[link to www.techrepublic.com]

Direct GAO link discussing the need:
[link to www.gao.gov]

I don't think we can include Reuters links but they had one titled SEC and Homeland Security need Web backup, GAO says on Oct 26, 2009 which details this issue. You can look it up yourself. It discusses blocking websites during a pandemic to assist bandwidth for government use or for critical infrastucture. As such many sites like this one, you'd have difficulty getting to it.

The Cybersecurity Act of 2009 would leave it up to the discretion of the President to decide on shutting down the Internet during a crisis which is entirely up to his discretion. Do you need more links? There's definitely more.

GAO-10-8 listed above discusses using the Internet during a Pandemic as a means of education in case schools are closed. That information is within the link above.

Question for Useless Cookie Eater, am I still illogical and nonsensical now that I've demonstrated that the US government has specifically considered doing precisely what I stated?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Yes.

1) Because LOTS of things are CONSIDERED that will never happen.

2) Again, even if the government were to go rogue and ignore the rule of law, people will find other ways to communicate as I noted earlier.

3) If they do shut down the internet, that would only be a symptom of a larger problem going on....and it is highly probable that all hell has already broken loose.....and it won't be over a pandemic.
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


1.So they spent millions preparing for something that won't happen? Maybe. Polticians piss money like crazy. Maybe they're listening to experts who don't know what they're talking about. Maybe all the historians are in cahoots with them. Medical staff and educators too.

2. Yep, we could run telegraph wires. If we have power. Military field phones have self-crank generators. There's that. Not too many around. We could wire up some from army surplus. Wrote about that in the last month. Not any Internet browsing over that though.

3. So are you not going to even admit that I was right about their plans about IP blocking, bandwidth reduction, lack of domain refferal in the face of the GAO report?

Are you that kind of person that won't admit to be wrong when someone provides you with evidence, when you discounted their statements as to their veracity. Seem weak and the actions of a real lightweight.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


1) Yep....plenty of ways they waste cash....and they don't care. It lines someones pockets. They don't care....and yes....the internal corruption is malignant so all industries have at least SOME people who are part of that "mafia"

2) Maybe telegraph, but those are easily spotted and cut.
It would be easier to use the BBS scenario I mentioned or HAM digital networks, and/or phone systems with existing lines for data transfer. Lots of ways. Humans are very inventive when they need to be. Necessity is the mother of invention.

3) Nothing to admit about you being right really. No offense. They COULD do many things....but shutting down the internet over a pandemic is unlikely. It's more likely they do something like China does with it's citizens in blocking certain websites....but there are numerous ways around that too. CAN they block it....SURE.....but it won't be done by LEGAL Constitutional means.

Overall I think we are on the same page but I don't agree with you about what is a trigger point for that happening.

Last Edited by Useless Cookie Eater on 01/10/2013 02:02 AM
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

User ID: 1110734
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01/10/2013 02:15 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Limiting bandwith during a Pandemic:
[link to www.techrepublic.com]

Direct GAO link discussing the need:
[link to www.gao.gov]

I don't think we can include Reuters links but they had one titled SEC and Homeland Security need Web backup, GAO says on Oct 26, 2009 which details this issue. You can look it up yourself. It discusses blocking websites during a pandemic to assist bandwidth for government use or for critical infrastucture. As such many sites like this one, you'd have difficulty getting to it.

The Cybersecurity Act of 2009 would leave it up to the discretion of the President to decide on shutting down the Internet during a crisis which is entirely up to his discretion. Do you need more links? There's definitely more.

GAO-10-8 listed above discusses using the Internet during a Pandemic as a means of education in case schools are closed. That information is within the link above.

Question for Useless Cookie Eater, am I still illogical and nonsensical now that I've demonstrated that the US government has specifically considered doing precisely what I stated?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Yes.

1) Because LOTS of things are CONSIDERED that will never happen.

2) Again, even if the government were to go rogue and ignore the rule of law, people will find other ways to communicate as I noted earlier.

3) If they do shut down the internet, that would only be a symptom of a larger problem going on....and it is highly probable that all hell has already broken loose.....and it won't be over a pandemic.
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


1.So they spent millions preparing for something that won't happen? Maybe. Polticians piss money like crazy. Maybe they're listening to experts who don't know what they're talking about. Maybe all the historians are in cahoots with them. Medical staff and educators too.

2. Yep, we could run telegraph wires. If we have power. Military field phones have self-crank generators. There's that. Not too many around. We could wire up some from army surplus. Wrote about that in the last month. Not any Internet browsing over that though.

3. So are you not going to even admit that I was right about their plans about IP blocking, bandwidth reduction, lack of domain refferal in the face of the GAO report?

Are you that kind of person that won't admit to be wrong when someone provides you with evidence, when you discounted their statements as to their veracity. Seem weak and the actions of a real lightweight.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


1) Yep....plenty of ways they waste cash....and they don't care. It lines someones pockets. They don't care....and yes....the internal corruption is malignant so all industries have at least SOME people who are part of that "mafia"

2) Maybe telegraph, but those are easily spotted and cut.
It would be easier to use the BBS scenario I mentioned or HAM digital networks, and/or phone systems with existing lines for data transfer. Lots of ways. Humans are very inventive when they need to be. Necessity is the mother of invention.

3) Nothing to admit about you being right really. No offense. They COULD do many things....but shutting down the internet over a pandemic is unlikely. It's more likely they do something like China does with it's citizens in blocking certain websites....but there are numerous ways around that too. CAN they block it....SURE.....but it won't be done by LEGAL Constitutional means.

Overall I think we are on the same page but I don't agree with you about what is a trigger point for that happening.
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


A list of the points you made:

“...and what this has to do with a pandemic....I have no idea. (concerning the Internet)

2) URL wouldn't work? Based on what criterion?
....and why would they block it?
Is news of a pandemic something that requires ISP's to block off a website.
Illogical and non-sensical. Sorry.

3) There are ALWAYS ways to get around things.
They could NEVER fully shut down communications between people.
In the VERY worst scenario the old DIALUP BBS's would come back to life within 24hrs.....and they cannot control them.

Question: Do you see that some aspect of dealing with pandemics has to do with control of information about pandemics via the Internet?

Question: Do you see that URLs wouldn't work, that they plan for them not to work if it's in the government's best interest? That they might block websites based upon their own documentation. Note that the information is from the GAO, they're accountants thinking about logical things that must be done and largely nonpartisan.

Question: Do you see that communications being down is a common scenario in tabletop exercises based upon experts and that it's something they anticipate that will happen? That if such events occured and telecoms were commendeered that BBS's would work because there wouldn't be telephone communication save for government and criticial infrastructure workers?

No one said it would happen. I said it was what they planned or anticipated. When discussing this before with some preppers, packet radio comes up. I'm not a HAM radio guy, but I know that you can send things like email, deliver data, that way. Since one of the Congressional laws in THOMAS was about seizing HAM radio commuications and perhaps using amateur HAM radio operators, seems implausible to expect communicationt that way.

Regular HAM radio would still be used. Most serious preppers have at least a HAM radio, if not a way to broadcast.

Since a pandemic is global by definition versus an epidemic which can be nation-wide, if a pandemic is everywhere, then I doubt we could just reroute traffic through another nation using things like hidemyass.com. Now that seems very implausible since they also have all the same utility and telecom issues, plus their own government responses.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/10/2013 02:18 AM
Useless Cookie Eater

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01/10/2013 02:30 AM

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
...


Yes.

1) Because LOTS of things are CONSIDERED that will never happen.

2) Again, even if the government were to go rogue and ignore the rule of law, people will find other ways to communicate as I noted earlier.

3) If they do shut down the internet, that would only be a symptom of a larger problem going on....and it is highly probable that all hell has already broken loose.....and it won't be over a pandemic.
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


1.So they spent millions preparing for something that won't happen? Maybe. Polticians piss money like crazy. Maybe they're listening to experts who don't know what they're talking about. Maybe all the historians are in cahoots with them. Medical staff and educators too.

2. Yep, we could run telegraph wires. If we have power. Military field phones have self-crank generators. There's that. Not too many around. We could wire up some from army surplus. Wrote about that in the last month. Not any Internet browsing over that though.

3. So are you not going to even admit that I was right about their plans about IP blocking, bandwidth reduction, lack of domain refferal in the face of the GAO report?

Are you that kind of person that won't admit to be wrong when someone provides you with evidence, when you discounted their statements as to their veracity. Seem weak and the actions of a real lightweight.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


1) Yep....plenty of ways they waste cash....and they don't care. It lines someones pockets. They don't care....and yes....the internal corruption is malignant so all industries have at least SOME people who are part of that "mafia"

2) Maybe telegraph, but those are easily spotted and cut.
It would be easier to use the BBS scenario I mentioned or HAM digital networks, and/or phone systems with existing lines for data transfer. Lots of ways. Humans are very inventive when they need to be. Necessity is the mother of invention.

3) Nothing to admit about you being right really. No offense. They COULD do many things....but shutting down the internet over a pandemic is unlikely. It's more likely they do something like China does with it's citizens in blocking certain websites....but there are numerous ways around that too. CAN they block it....SURE.....but it won't be done by LEGAL Constitutional means.

Overall I think we are on the same page but I don't agree with you about what is a trigger point for that happening.
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


A list of the points you made:

“...and what this has to do with a pandemic....I have no idea. (concerning the Internet)

2) URL wouldn't work? Based on what criterion?
....and why would they block it?
Is news of a pandemic something that requires ISP's to block off a website.
Illogical and non-sensical. Sorry.

3) There are ALWAYS ways to get around things.
They could NEVER fully shut down communications between people.
In the VERY worst scenario the old DIALUP BBS's would come back to life within 24hrs.....and they cannot control them.

Question: Do you see that some aspect of dealing with pandemics has to do with control of information about pandemics via the Internet?

Question: Do you see that URLs wouldn't work, that they plan for them not to work if it's in the government's best interest? That they might block websites based upon their own documentation. Note that the information is from the GAO, they're accountants thinking about logical things that must be done and largely nonpartisan.

Question: Do you see that communications being down is a common scenario in tabletop exercises based upon experts and that it's something they anticipate that will happen? That if such events occured and telecoms were commendeered that BBS's would work because there wouldn't be telephone communication save for government and criticial infrastructure workers?

No one said it would happen. I said it was what they planned or anticipated. When discussing this before with some preppers, packet radio comes up. I'm not a HAM radio guy, but I know that you can send things like email, deliver data, that way. Since one of the Congressional laws in THOMAS was about seizing HAM radio commuications and perhaps using amateur HAM radio operators, seems implausible to expect communicationt that way.

Regular HAM radio would still be used. Most serious preppers have at least a HAM radio, if not a way to broadcast.

Since a pandemic is global by definition versus an epidemic which can be nation-wide, if a pandemic is everywhere, then I doubt we could just reroute traffic through another nation using things like hidemyass.com. Now that seems very implausible since they also have all the same utility and telecom issues, plus their own government responses.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


hidemyass.com .... cruise Nice.

To answer your questions.....

1) Question: Do you see that some aspect of dealing with pandemics has to do with control of information about pandemics via the Internet?

They will try....just as they do now with their online shills everywhere and propaganda.
Perfect example is this.....
Thread: Oh my! Can"t believe I saw the new definition of Patriot!!
OR they may just block information they don't like the way the ChiComs do it.

2) Question: Do you see that URLs wouldn't work, that they plan for them not to work if it's in the government's best interest? That they might block websites based upon their own documentation. Note that the information is from the GAO, they're accountants thinking about logical things that must be done and largely nonpartisan.

Refer to my answer in #1. It applies here as well.

3) Question: Do you see that communications being down is a common scenario in tabletop exercises based upon experts and that it's something they anticipate that will happen? That if such events occured and telecoms were commendeered that BBS's would work because there wouldn't be telephone communication save for government and criticial infrastructure workers?

If they didn't do various scenario training for all kinds events and circumstances I would be EXTREMELY surprised.
I'm sure shutting down the internet is one of those components of NUMEROUS scenario plays.
That said....you are again assuming that the government has gone TOTAL FUBAR ROGUE and in THAT scenario there are already other things afoot. Just think how America would react to that. It won't be pretty.
Also probability of it going FULL RETARD like that is low.
When the government is doing scenario training, they know the repercussions and collateral damage shockwave that would cause to themselves and their newly assumed totalitarian grip on power.

warnwo

Last Edited by Useless Cookie Eater on 01/10/2013 02:31 AM
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/10/2013 03:24 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Here's my thing...it doesn't actually have to be a bad pandemic. It could be a self-limited single wave (they often are multiple waves...three in 1918) pandemic that fizzles but marital law is declared and then as things settle down, it just never eases up.

See how easy that would be? The sheeple would say, "Save Us!" and then the governments step in. Security forces. Government control of industry, supply chains, healthcare, media, communictions, finances, etc. They could do it in one fell swoop. The pandemic need only kill say 20,000 or so and then people would totally freak out.

Gun control of course. Now that people bought things up, the government seizes weapons. They could even discourage hunting or trapping as the animals and birds are contaminated (or claimed as such).

We'd be enslaved. They could control everything.

If a pandemic happened, it's likely to have severe repercussions on the financial markets. It would be very easy to shut em down and then purchase stocks for a song, usually with the corporations buying back their own stocks. Huge losses of property values. No work for months. Since not paying your bills, property seizures for back payment. Most people would be utterly wiped out.

hidemyass.com is real by the way.

You know the thing about shills? A lot of people just don't read squat. They've never opened a history book since high school. They don't try to open the minds, but stick with whatever Mom and Dad believed. They don't realize that there's a ton of propaganda daily on the news. A lot of times, these folks say things here, and I think they're simply ignorant, or obtuse, or just can't be bothered, and so they say these little bits of recording things they heard some talking head say once. There's a total absence of critical thinking.

Why pay people when there's tons of sheep who will spout the party line for free?

There's definitely shills. We could track the dumbest ones by IP address, but you can change those with ease. A lot of more sophisticated ones you could track by MAC addresses. Of course you switch those too. Some don't even try and the IPs show them coming from government facilities.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/10/2013 03:36 AM
Anonymous Coward
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01/10/2013 03:26 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
History, I suppose.

Theoretically the Swine Flu scare was really a cover for the nanobots to infiltrate everybody's bodies.

So, technically, they could just flip a switch.
Anonymous Coward
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01/10/2013 04:17 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Watch the movie CONTAGION.

Everybody should watch this movie right now.

We are already on the verge of this pandemic. Hello.

This is only the first wave. This will go for 6 more weeks. Then the second wave will come. The second wave is the worst and you can bet your boots this virius will change and become more deadly. Then there will be a third wave.

This is not going away any time soon. 3-6 months it will take for this to run its course.

Stock up on food. Water. Nessesity's. The only way not to get the bug in a pandemic is to be a shut in.

Experts say to properly prepare for a pandemic you need provisions for A YEAR.
Anonymous Coward
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01/10/2013 04:17 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
when we reach a substantial weather change they come to spray us, so they can keep the livestock under control

[link to www.youtube.com]
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/10/2013 04:19 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Watch the movie CONTAGION.

Everybody should watch this movie right now.

We are already on the verge of this pandemic. Hello.

This is only the first wave. This will go for 6 more weeks. Then the second wave will come. The second wave is the worst and you can bet your boots this virius will change and become more deadly. Then there will be a third wave.

This is not going away any time soon. 3-6 months it will take for this to run its course.

Stock up on food. Water. Nessesity's. The only way not to get the bug in a pandemic is to be a shut in.

Experts say to properly prepare for a pandemic you need provisions for A YEAR.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12010792

Maybe, but probably too early to jump that conclusion. Not seeing a lot of fatalities. Haven't noticed significant traffic at flutrackers.com. Think it's too early to tell.

It's always good to be prepared. My grandparents had a pantry. It was full. My girlfriend in high school, her parents had a full pantry. Country people just do that because of gardens. Mostly canning stuff back then. It was normal. Everyone did it.

Now dingdong pastors are telling people that God will provide all their needs, and silly crap like don't prep, it's bizarre. It totally is the opposite of the story of Joseph in Genesis and storing up for lean times.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/10/2013 04:23 AM
bvndy

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01/10/2013 04:28 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Not quite a "pandemic" yet.
A pandemic is much worse than 12 dead in Boston, a little over 1% death rate.
How would you "know" about a coming pandemic?
If it starts overseas, a little time maybe, but if it starts over here, it will hit you in the face.
This paticular flu seems bad, but not as bad as some in the past.
Anyway, I did not get a flu shot either, they are a con.
You can ignore the consequences of
your actions, but you cannot ignore
the RESULTS of the consequences of your actions

Ayn Rand
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/10/2013 08:12 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Since about 2006 or so, government officials at the HHS (Dept of Health and Human Services) have been monitoring social media for evidence of influenza and pandemic. The idea was to look at search words, and then see if patterns occurred across geographic regions. Such patterns might predict nervous parents hastily looking for symptoms and treatments and perhaps might show a real epidemic (widespread occurance of a disease in a region ) and then pandemic (prevalent disease over an entire nation) was occuring.

As Facebook and Twitter and other (now less popular) sites were growing, they also looked there. In a way, it's really creepy, isn't it?

There's a way you can use the same strategy to look for a pandemic, but not in a way that you might think.

One of the keywords for businesses and economic or weather related disaster is "force majeure". Companies used to say "acts of God", but we live in a post-Christian age, and so "force majeure" is used. If used in a business contract, it's a legal contractual term indicating that a company could "wiggle out" from obligations due to unforeseen events. Then they couldn't be sued for not paying salaries and benefits, delivering supplies per contract, not paying their supplies in kind, etc.
[link to www.out-law.com]

Example: There might be such force majeure clauses in your life or homeowner's insurance policy. Check and see.

If things were really getting bad, a lot of companies would be doing extensive searches of their contracts and that term "force majeure" might start popping up...a lot. You might get a form letter informing you of that clause. Companies might trade those form letters back and forth between vendors and those they supply.

It's one more thing you could be vigilant about. A way to monitor would be to look at Google Trends. You can put in a term and then see over a set time how much it's changed and that is graphed.

Here's an alarming Google Trend for "green mucus". It's going logarithmic.

[link to www.google.com]

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/10/2013 08:20 AM
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01/10/2013 08:15 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
You wouldn't . Not until you were sick.

Read World War Z. It specifically deals with the scenarios being discussed. Government keeping things on the hush, etc.
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/11/2013 06:25 PM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Now that it's offically an epidemic, expect routine monitoring by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). What happens is they work in conjunction with the World Health Organiation (WHO).

They screwed up last time. They overreacted. Previously they underreacted. It's very difficult to anticipate biostatistics. They might be gunshy this time, and that could bite us in the ass. This is why you need to make your own decisions based upon good critical thinking, not conjecture. If you think it's going to be bad, see if other good critical thinkers agree because maybe you're freaking out. That's easy to do with pandemics.

They look at initial reports coming in from many countries. They try to project forward based on current data. It's not a science but guessing scientifically.

A lot of people might get sick, but depending upon the economic status, availability of medicine, number of docs, crowding in hospitals, then a lot will change country to country.

In the USA, when an epidemic is happening, then they often do special meetings which are broadcast by the CDC as updates. You can listen to them as they stream. As this bores a lot of people, and as there are few medical technical writers, a lot of what is said, is abbreviated in print. Listening gets you some intel.

Health and Human Services will report on drug and equipment shortages. You can sign up from email messages about that, and then discern how bad things get. Expect initial shortages as medical centers and satelite offices gear up and order more than normal inventory, but then if it keeps happening then bad shortages happen. In a pandemic there's a competition for things like gloves and masks, mundane things that people don't think to look for as intel.

If it gets bad, then they have special meetings, often with state government officials, to ascertain readiness to treat patients, but also in other critical infrastructure roles. These will likely be announced in boring ways among medical forums, and then they post video and audio streams, but often they fail to leave a transcript of those or omit details that are important but sensitive.These are sometimes announced as special commitees in Congress. That's how you find them since they're public meetings.

Sometimes they let their face show more in those meetings because chances are slim that a routine citizen would go to all that trouble and listen.

Then they will create a multi-disciplinary(many fields of study) committee of top scientists. Then they'll report their findings to the President.

They also might create a special meeting or position paper for governors. Governors are supposed to get with state health officials as well as critical infrastructure taskforces to monitor and to make state pandemic plans. They look at their stockpiles of Tamiflu and adjust it. Last time, most states published their pandemic plans on the web. This allows you to read what's the plan, and most people don't read that stuff, so some eye-opening things can be in there, sometimes alarming things.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/11/2013 06:33 PM
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
CDC Weekly Reporting

If you're a numbers person and interested in looking at the influenza data, then you go here and see intel on things like death, percentages of infection by state, kinds of virus detected in a region, etc.
[link to www.cdc.gov]
Much of it is graphed to ease comprehension.

If you click here, which is not readily apparent to focus it on health care professionals, then you get information earlier that isn't as known.
[link to www.cdc.gov]


State Pandemic Plans

If you click here, then you can find the state you live in, and see what your officials have planned. Some may surprise you as it's not commonly known.
[link to www.flu.gov]

For example, a section of Georgia's pandemic plan on potentially closing public areas to quarantine:
d) Widespread community quarantine (cordon sanitaire)
In extreme circumstances, public heath officials may consider the use of widespread or community-wide quarantine, which is the most stringent and restrictive containment measure. Strictly speaking, “widespread community quarantine” is a misnomer, since “quarantine” refers to separation of exposed persons only and (unlike snow days) usually allows provision of services and support to affected persons. Like snow days, widespread community quarantine involves asking everyone to stay home. It differs from snow days in two respects: 1) It may involve a legally enforceable action, and 2) it restricts travel into or out of an area circumscribed by a real or virtual “sanitary barrier” or “cordon sanitaire” except to authorized persons, such as public heath or healthcare workers.

Implementation of this measure during a pandemic is unlikely to prevent the introduction or spread of pandemic disease except in uncommon or unique circumstances (such as in a community able to be completely self-sufficient). In many cases, other less restrictive approaches such as snow days can be implemented to slow disease spread or decrease its magnitude in a community. Because of this, cordon sanitaire is not likely to be recommended during a pandemic.
[link to health.state.ga.us]

So as you can imagine, if such things were to happen, most likely they would be announced 24 hours ahead of time, so people could get gas, groceries, medicines, and then "hole up" for a period, but if you don't have supplies and there's a run on supplies, then unless you get there in their first hour, they're gone.

Do you understand what I'm saying? You need to prepare, not because we're there yet, but because 99% of people are not prepared, so when something happens, then the stores get slammed, and then there's shortages.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/11/2013 10:07 PM
Anonymous Coward
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01/11/2013 09:59 PM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Maybe it would start first with hospitals setting up tents outside their premise to help accomodate the greater amounts of individuals catching whatever pathogen.....


(seems to always be tents around hosiptals in zombie games/movies too, just so you can already imagine the sight)
Useless Cookie Eater

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01/11/2013 10:04 PM

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Maybe it would start first with hospitals setting up tents outside their premise to help accomodate the greater amounts of individuals catching whatever pathogen.....


(seems to always be tents around hosiptals in zombie games/movies too, just so you can already imagine the sight)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31834929


...or maybe they set those up so EVERYONE ELSE in the hospital is not contaminated or infected.

Think about it. thwak
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/11/2013 10:07 PM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Maybe it would start first with hospitals setting up tents outside their premise to help accomodate the greater amounts of individuals catching whatever pathogen.....


(seems to always be tents around hosiptals in zombie games/movies too, just so you can already imagine the sight)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31834929


...or maybe they set those up so EVERYONE ELSE in the hospital is not contaminated or infected.

Think about it. thwak
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


Yes, precisely.
Useless Cookie Eater

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01/11/2013 10:10 PM

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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Maybe it would start first with hospitals setting up tents outside their premise to help accomodate the greater amounts of individuals catching whatever pathogen.....


(seems to always be tents around hosiptals in zombie games/movies too, just so you can already imagine the sight)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 31834929


...or maybe they set those up so EVERYONE ELSE in the hospital is not contaminated or infected.

Think about it. thwak
 Quoting: Useless Cookie Eater


Yes, precisely.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Don't know if this was already posted or not but.....

Hospital Sets Up Tents for Flu Patients
[link to fox43.com]
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/11/2013 10:15 PM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
32% of the student body was sick so they closed the school.
[link to www.dglobe.com]
Illness closes doors at Worthington Christian School
It's a small school. Many Christian schools are.

You'll start seeing these as principals from public schools have decide based upon fed/state tax dollars from census thresholds. If it dips too low then they don't break even and must close based upon economics as well as to minimize contagion.

Missouri is getting hit hard
[link to www.stltoday.com]

The main issue is how to handle this. A lot parents are not only both working but now in this economy working perhaps partime too on top of their regular job.

Now you have schoolkids at home, and mostly latchkey. They get bored, then hang out, maybe at a near by public park, pass around their germs, come home, pass it to families.

It's a complex issue. Technically they should stay home.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/11/2013 10:15 PM
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/11/2013 10:27 PM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Here's a list of ways to diagnose at home what's going on, and possible inexpensive ways to help with those issues. Try to handle things as much as you can doing basic things first, but realize when you're outside your limits.

If things get bad, I'll post some links of other things. We're not there yet. This is a repost from where I posted videos on how to do things like percussive therapy.
Thread: GLP How many of us are sick today ?????unidentified respiratory illness?????Post if you cant stop coughing!!!! (Page 18)

...
Now that we are officially at epidemic numbers, the best treatment is avoiding public events. Buying supplies so you don't have to go back and get exposed to coughing people. Paying at the gas pump not going inside.

Then you do nasal rinses once a week with clean water that's been boiled and salt added. Then you know it's safer. If the passages are irrigated then they are cleaner. That interferes with germs. Believe me, you will have some germs always, but it's when it overwhelms your system that it's bad.

Yes, boost your immune system when not sick. Exercise. Eat healthy especially now. Load up on antioxidants. Drink clean non-fluridated water. Get proper natural sleep.

If you get sick. Kinda tired been saying this over and over in numerous topics, try:

1. Don't take cough suppressants. You need to expel the mucus. You need an expectorant. Use a cough suppressant at night to get sleep. Avoid menthol, or minimally use it. Menthol while thinning mucus ALSO INCREASES MUCUS PRODUCTION. It's counter-productive. It can clear the sinuses briefly then do a nasal rinse and stop using the menthol. If you wish to do that, try some chinese mustard since it contains horseradish and that also clears the sinuses and doesn't cause more mucus.
2. Use an inhaler and an extender to relax the smooth muscle of the respiratory tract. You are coughing because the mucus is building up to trap the pathogen. See point #1
3. Still do a nasal rinse as above to wash away the infection. If you have a wound, then you clean it first, right?
4. If a patient can't cough up mucus, then do percusive therapy. See my sig or do a GLP search. You tap the shoulders, back, or chest and this mechanically loosens the mucus plug. Then they can cough it up.
5. Don't swallow mucus. Expel it. Swallowed mucus traps food particles and bacteria and believe it or not, mucus then often rises again along the respiratory tract and throat and is reinserted into your nose. You're making yourself sicker. You could get a secondary bacterial infection.
6. If your fever is less that 102 and your mucus is clear, you have a virus. There are few medicines. Tamiflu only shortens the symptom length. If there are shortages, they will limit prescibing it anyway.
7. If your fever is 102+ and your mucus is dark yellow or green, then it contains dying white blood cells. That's what colors mucus. You have a bacterial infection. Get antibiotics.
8. If not feverish, then take warm baths, not showers to increase lymph flow. Often people can go into shock when they get too chilled.
9. Massage the sinuses to push infected material out. Don't give overall massage as it could push the infection towards the heart and organs. A clogged sinus can easily get a bacterial infection and now you have two problems.
10. If vomiting and/or diarrhea (gasteroenteritis), then you need oral rehydrating solution (ORS)to stay hydrated. See my sig on instructions. Many people get sicker because of this.
11. If you are vomiting or have diarrhea is could be Norovirus. Usually that is a LOT of these two. It's usually both. You especially need ORS. Expect the whole family to get it as it is highly contagious.
12. If you have vomiting and respiratory illness, chances are that if your mucus is yellow or green you have a specific bacterial infection called Staph aureus. You need antibiotics. Most "flu" (respiratory illness) doesn't have vomiting.
12a. If someone gets dehydrated, their blood pressure could drop. Raise their legs above their head. They could go into shock. Keep them warm. Prevention is way easier than dealing with this.
13. Take your temperature regularly. Write it down. In fact write down your symptoms. You need to clearly and concisely communicate exactly your symptoms so you get the right medicine.
14. If sick and there are people around, segregate yourself as much as possible and use a mask when outside the room to minimize THEM getting sick. The last thing you need is everyone sick at once.
15. If a young person (typically) has coughing in which they hack and cough and then must suck in air and make a distinctive sound (pertusis or whooping cough) then you need to go right away to the doc for treatment.
16. If a young child or baby can't or won't blow their nose, use a snotsucker. You need to get that out of there, or they will definitely get sicker.
17. If a baby gets sick with clear mucus and wheezes, then most likely they have RSV (viral). You can gently tap and do percussive therapy to dislodge the mucus. Ask if you can do breathing treatments at home. Watch them like a hawk. They can get very weak, can't rouse them, won't eat so fussy, etc. Seek treatment.
18. Don't eat dairy or cut it way back if not a baby on formula. Milk helps create mucus and that is the last thing you want.Milk is largely digested in the intestines so avoided with gasteroenteritis like Norovirus.
19. If nothing will bring up mucus, and it's clear, and you have a dry hacking cough, then you especially need a vaporizer. There are special teas and cough syrup for this. Find one with slippery elm as that sooths the best. Liquorice root too. Both ingredients if you find one. Youcan't use liquorice root is you are on heart medication. Breathe Easy tea and Throat Coat tea are both found in most grocery or drug stores and are great.
20. You can't get strong if you don't eat. Find something you can eat. If you're having trouble keeping food down then eat very small portions.
21. If you have bad diarrhea, most of the time you want to expel it. If it's ridiculous, then use loperimide (Imodium). The generic is far cheaper and the same. It relaxes the spasm.
22.If you have an ear ache, you could easily stumble and fall. Don't let people with ear aches drive or walk around without help. It's very painful. They lose their balance because that sense is developed inside the ear. Falls usually happen when they shower.
23. It's very common for someone to have atypical pneumonia and be misdiagnosed. They most often have clear mucus and a hacking cough. All patients with this have chills and clammy skin and fever. Body aches. People think you don't have pneumonia, but then a chest Xray shows it. Eye pain which is unusual. Shortness of breath when climbing stairs.
23b. Atypical Pneumonia as above but you could have bloody mucus if Legionella is present but that's usually older people.The elderly are often confused. Diarhea not vomiting.

I hope this helps. It's the main points. Do only the part based upon the symptoms. Wouldn't it be smart to print this and refer to it, and so help diagnose when someone gets sick?

If you have a respiratory illness and then your neck hurts, you have the worst headache of your life, eye pain, sensitiveity to light, then seek treatment. It might be viral or bacterial meningitis. You can't treat that at home.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 01/11/2013 10:27 PM
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/11/2013 10:36 PM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Here's something I wrote on over-the-counter medicines.

Go easy on decongestants as they're bad for you with lots of side effects. Pay especial attention to pain relief as one medicine is not appropriate to another age group.

If a respiratory infection, the main goal is usually to get mucus out. That requires an expectorant. Suppresants stop your coughing, but that's bad since the mucus continues to build up, and eventually lowers you oxygen levels (O2 Sats). If the patient is bluish, their oxygen levels are very low, they need medical attention.

Over-the-counter medicines
What do those ingredients do?

Be careful taking over-the-counter medicines. Many contain ingredients which could be bad for you depending upon your age, your medical conditions, or the medications you're taking.

Common ingredients include:
Pain
1.Aspirin for pain relief, but children shouldn't take it because of Reye Syndrome.
2.Acetaminophen is often given to children but shouldn't be taken by older folks as it's metabolized by the liver and difficult for them to process. Expired acetaminophen is a poison. Check those dates.
3.Naproxen is an excellent pain reliever as it's stronger, but shouldn't be taken by some older folks since metabolized by the liver. Can't take it if you have ulcers, or heart problems.
4.Ibuprofen is a good pain reliever but has a lot of side effects. Not recommended.

Decongestant by definition constrict the blood vessels and sinuses. Not a good idea if on blood pressure medications, right? They also can make you nervous or irritable. Some are restricted. I'm not big on these.
1.Pseudoephedrine: very restricted
2.Phenylephrine : not restricted

Take horseradish to open your sinuses instead. Then a nasal rinse with boiled water and salt. Let it cool obviously.

Expectorants: expel mucus
1.Guaifenesin: very helpful but can't take it if prone to nausea or vomiting. Could exacerbate kidney stones.
2.Ambroxol : not over-the-counter in the USA, but elsewhere. Very helpful. Can't be taken by pregnant women, infants shouldn't take it.
3.Acetylcysteine: might harm the heart and lungs. If you issues with either, I wouldn't use it.

Cough Suppressant ( strong antitussive)
1.Dextromethorphan: Has a lot of side effects like nausea, rash, sleepiness, breathing difficulty, hallucination. Not recommended except times when you need to rest.
2.Noscapine: strong antitussive but a lot of side effects

Use Honey and Lemon instead.

Slippery Elm is a demulcent. It coats and soothes the throat, but it might interfere with absorbtion of your medications. It's best used for sore throat pain and to help dry coughs.

Licorice Root: Opens the airway, stimulates the immune system (eosinophils), and reduces inflammaiton. Can't use it if on heart medications. If you're a smoker, you're getting licorice as an additive. A heart patient who smokes is really messing up if using a tobacco with this.

One could easily take brewed tea of ginger, garlic, onion and eliminate a lot of issues. It's cheaper and no side effects too.

If you can't mess around with making something try Traditional Medicinals Breathe Easy Tea or Throat Coat Tea based upon your symptoms. Both are cheap, locally available, and mild.If you take one with licorice root, you may get buzzy if you drink too much of it. Back off then. Follow the directions.
Don'tBeAfraid (OP)

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01/12/2013 04:32 AM
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Re: If there was a pandemic coming, how would we know?
Here's some compiled information from academic medical sources which may suggest that higher vitamin D levels or sunlight may impart better case-fatality rations in pandemic flu.
Thread: GLP How many of us are sick today ?????unidentified respiratory illness?????Post if you cant stop coughing!!!! (Page 19)

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